For the Record:

Eva Balogh sent me a private e-mail and posted one sentence (out of context)
from my response.

Those of you who grew up in Hungary between 1945-1956, may remember that
people would approach you on the streetcar, or some other public place and try
to engage in a conversation about the conditions that we had to endure.  If
you responded, in any way that could be used against you, you would be
arrested.  You could be tortured or killed for some comment you made during
the conversation.

Eva Balogh has shown a mastery of communist trickery.  Congratulations Comrade
Balogh, you did not waste your years studying communist history and
philosophy.

She calls me 'garbage' six (6) times in her message.

It is an honor to be called 'garbage' by Comrade Balogh.

I must be getting my message across.

Istvan

----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Eva S. Balogh
Sent:  Wednesday, December 11, 1996 7:01 AM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: VIOLATION of Privacy

At 09:13 PM 12/10/96 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
><SNIP>
>>         Apology? You must be kidding.
>>
>>         Eva Balogh
>>
>NO I am not. How would you feel if someone sent your private mail to the
>public forum? Regardless of how you feel about him personally, the issue
>is that you violated a basic trust and understanding that goes along with
>private mail.
>Peter

        I had enough of your preaching. If I say to somebody that he is a
piece of garbage privately I am also quite ready to tell the whole world
that he is a piece of garbage. On the Forum somebody whom I considered then
a piece of garbage and who since turned out to be even a bigger piece of
garbage than I thought published my private letter to him in which I said in
no uncertain terms that he is the biggest piece of garbage I have ever
encountered. Somebody chastised him for it and although I appreciated the
gesture it really didn't bother me that he made my comment public. It would
be, of course, an entirely different matter if I wrote about a third person
and the addressee made such a letter either public or sent a copy of it to
the person in question.

        I am also quite ready to tell the whole world that I consider Mr.
Lippai a piece of garbage and I am ashamed that he is a Hungarian.

        Eva Balogh

In article >, Istvan Lippai
> writes:

>All of us who live outside of Hungary are representatives of Hungary,
like it
>or not.  Those who are blessed with wealth of unusual intellect have a
>special
>responsibility to use their wealth intellect to help our people.  I have
only
>pity for people like Eva Balogh, who lost all sense of our history and
>culture.
>
>This list also politely tolerates the anti-Hungarian venom of Sam Stowe.
To
>paraphrase a former vice-presidential candidate;
>
>I know Americans, Americans are my friends, Sam Stowe is not an American.
>
>In my view, it would be no great loss, if this list got cancelled.
>
>Istvan Lippai

Obviously, you didn't spend the month's enforced rest from the Hungary
list getting your lithium balance worked out. While many of our members
will no doubt be depressed about the fact that the List has been back in
effect for less than 24 hours only to be subjected to your rantings again,
I take it as a symbol that life, as we know it on bit.listserv.hungary,
has returned to normal -- God's in his heaven, some far rightwing goofball
nationalist is working overtime on his keyboard and all's about as right
with the world as it gets these days.

The appeal to censorship is cute, by the way. It's also very un-American,
albeit perfectly in keeping with your Arrow Cross politics. If this list's
contents distress you so much, why subject yourself to it? Surely there
must be some other Hungarian-content list on the Net packed full of
nitwits like you who don't know anything about Hungarian history prior to
1956 and whose knowledge of the era since then is riddled with errors.
Hell, they may even let you write the FAQ.

Barring your departure from this den of iniquity, I think we can only
assume that your continued presence on this list is either a desperate
plea for attention or the oafish fumblings of an egomaniac. My vote is the
latter. You really do the concept of "oafishness" justice.
Sam Stowe


"Free your mind and
your ass will follow..."
-- George Clinton

E.Balogh wrote:

>>Here we are again! The same old Sam's theory. How many times do I have to
>>ask the same questions, i.e so what the hungarian politicians should have
>>done to AVOID those consequences (i.e Trianon, German occupation,
>>Russian occupation)?
>
>        I think that it is not quite accurate to say that nothing could have
>been done to avoid the dismemberment of Hungary in 1918-1919. Many, many
>things could have been done differently which *may have* (please note, that
>I am underlying these two words) resulted in a different outcome.

Eva, your comments remind me a well-known gypsie joke (a bit racist, so
super-PC people, please ignore the following lines):

The skin-heads catch a gypsie man while he is going home and tell him
that they are going to play a dice game. The gypsie man has to throw
a dice and if it between 1 and 5, he will be beaten.
And what happens if I throw 6 ? - ask the gypsie man.
Then, you can throw again! - answer the skin-heads.

So, this is my opinion about your *may have*. Yes, maybe there were
some remote possibility but the odds were not promising.

>An earlier
>"compromise" with Vienna could have accelerated Hungarian economic
>development and with that the natural assimilation could have begun earlier
>(see other, better developed countries in western Europe). Under natural
>assimilation I mean the kind which is inevitable with urbanization and
>greater mobility. There were several possibilities for such compromise but
>none were taken.

I am not sure that I clearly understand this. Would you mind being a little
bit more specific?
Especially I don't see how an accelerated industrialization and *assimilation*
could have prevented WWI and its consequences on Hungary.

>Sam Stowe in another post talks about Lajos Kossuth--I'm
>afraid that I share his antipathy to the kind of future he envisaged for
>Hungary and his continued opposition to the Ausgleich (whose architect was
>Ferenc Deak, a great statesman) did harm to Hungary after 1867.

This is funny. If 1848 had succeed and a relativly strong Hungary
had been kept together by Kossuth till the outbreak of an all-out
conflict between Germany and France/England, this Hungary would have
been on the Anglo-French side and hence a victor at the end. So the
Kossuth-line ,if succeed, would have been much more benificial for
Hungary in long-range. And believe me, the antante would not have cared
with the demands of slovaks/romans/etc if their interest had been to
maintain a relativly strong Hungary on the east side of Germany (much
like Poland was). It is an other question, though, how much chance the
Kossuth-line had for success.

>but they existed mostly on paper. And finally, one didn't have to start the
>First World War--which, we all inclined to forget, was begun by
>Austria-Hungary. Hungary, according to the laws, had the right to say no to
>Vienna when it came to declaration of war and Istvan Tisza held out for two
>weeks.

Eva, please, don't use such cheap shots. You are not S.Stowe who believes
WWI was fought for archdukes and moral issues. That conflict was inevitable
by that time and Austro-Hungary was tied to Germany by military trieties. It
is just a couriosity that the actual cause for WWI was related to Austro-
Hungary.

J.Zs

Mark is having troubles getting messages through and asked that I forward
this to the group on his behalf.

>Date: Tue, 7 Jan 97 12:48:01 EST
>From:  (Mark Humphreys)
>To: 
>
>Hello Everyone!
>
>This message is meant for the many travelers among us:
>
>I will be travelling on many isolated country roads in Hungary and Romania
soon.As a precaution against aggressive dogs (and bad guys?), I plan to
take a small
>hand canister of pepper-juice.
>
>Does anyone know if any authorities will find travelling with pepper juice
>illegal? Is it considered a weapon?
>
>Thanks,
>Mark Humphreys
>
>

It is curious that the self admitted product of a communist brood would accuse
me of being a communist.

Children of workers and peasants were trusted by the communists, especially
'prolik' of Angyalfold.  My Mother was a factory worker and my Father was from
poor peasant family from 'Szeged kornyeke'.  It is easy to find out about my
background.  My paternal Grand-father was lost in WWI and my Father, one of
many children, was 6-years old when he was rented to servitude at a nearby
farm.  Mora Ferenc spent his summers at that farm and noticed that a little
peasant boy was picking up his discarded writings.  He talked to him and found
out that he was very bright.  Mora Ferenc educated my Father through
'Epitoipari Teknikum'.  You can read about my father and his family in some of
Mora Ferenc's books.

The communists hoped to build their power on workers and peasants and it was
easy for me and my Brother to gain acceptance at the Technical University of
Budapest.  My Brother was 5 years older and very smart.  He and Kovacs Zoli
(Another Hungarian I am proud to call my friend.) graduated at the top of
Civil Engineering class.  I was a promising wrestler (Just defeated the former
Hungarian junior champion in my weight class.  Sport was the non-political way
to some kind of the life under communist rule.), but not near as smart as my
Brother.  I was taking the entrance exam when a professor stopped at my desk
and asked me if I was the kid brother (occse) of Lippai Sandor.  I said yes
and he said welcome to the university (Isten hozott).

I assume more than half of students had similar backgrounds.  Indeed, the
communists kissed our 'proli' asses.  Still they could buy us with free
tuition, lunch money, etc., because we saw the conditions our families and
friends had to endure.

It is a different story with Eva Balogh and Joe Szalai.  Eva Balogh was a
third year student of communist history and philosophy.  You had to be
communist garbage to choose to take more than the one class required in
Marxist-Leninist doctrine at the Technical University of Budapest.  Joe Szalai
is the product of a communist litter.  Curiously, they both ended up in
Canada.  The United States did not accept communist garbage.

I was at the meeting at the University, marched to the statue of General Bem
(missed the Radio Station) and joined the University National Guard.  We had
about 200 armed (tommy guns) students at the University.  We provided general
security and I was with the group that provided security for the meeting of
Metropolitan Budapest Revolutionary Workers Committee (Nagy-Budapesti Munkas
Tanacs).

My friend and I were on the street greeting (screaming our heads off) the
Hungarian military units who came to Budapest to join us.  One of those trucks
came to a sudden stop and my Brother jumped off.  He was five years older and
we were never close, but at that moment we were closer than any two men could.
 My Brother was serving his post graduation military obligation in the
country.  He and his friend 'Sooky Attila' (Another great Hungarian I am proud
to know.) disarmed the political officers and came to help us.

We was filled with joy in anticipation of a future in a free Hungary.  When we
found out that the Russians arrested Nagy Imre and Maleter Pal, we knew that
our dream was over.  We planned to defend the University and were waiting for
the Russian attack.  I saw a nervous student who accidentally fire his weapon,
instantly killing his best friend who was sleeping between us in the bid
central building of the University.

I stood guard alone at the North fence for several hours waiting for the
Russians.  I was prepared to die for Hungary.  After the earlier accident, I
made up my mind not to retreat because I knew that my friends would shoot me.
The Russians did not come that night and we gave up the idea of defending the
University.  I thank God for the gift of 40 years that I did not expect to
live.

I left home on November 21 and arrived in Austria on November 23.  The
communist were looking for me and my Brother a week after we left.  When they
gave me a weapon at the University, they also put my name down.  I suppose the
communists got they hands on the list and that is why they were looking for
us.  These records should still be somewhere.  Maybe comrades Balogh or Szalai
know where they are.

Is there anything else?

Istvan






----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Joe Szalai
Sent:  Tuesday, December 10, 1996 7:35 PM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Was he?

In his first post to this list, Istvan Lippai wrote:

>In 1956, I was a second year student at the Technical University of
>Budapest.

Later he writes:

>I was raised in "Angyalfold".  My Hungarian brothers and sisters know that
>they will not get a polite conversation from an Angyalfold-i over issues
>that I feel strongly about.  I believe that they will accept me for who I
>am.

Did we all miss something?  How common was it for kids from Angyalfo:ld to
go to university if they, or their parents, weren't members of the communist
party?  I heard, and as you know I don't believe a lot of things I hear, but
I was told that it was nearly impossible to go to university if you weren't
a member.  I'd be curious to know Lippai Ur's connections.

Joe Szalai

Can it possibly be true? Good news if it is. I suggest we have Hugh cloned
next time he sets foot in the States, so we'll have someone who can fix
the list if it gets schizophrenic again. Anyone got a closet we can stash
the doppleganger in while he's not maintaining the list?
Sam Stowe


"Free your mind and
your ass will follow..."
-- George Clinton

Dear Aniko, Eva Balogh, Eva Dunford;

I read your respective letters on the subject. Please do understand that
the only thing that I am saying is that opening and publishing a private
letter is generally unacceptable. I am not here to defend nor detract
fromMr. L -- he does it well for himself.
The basic issue is that he (or anyone) sending you a private letter --
regardless of its content -- should not be published without his approval.

One can say many things and should have the courage and decency to say so in
public rather than in private letters.

>From reading one that was posted and others via inference, he has upset
you all.  Still the issue is that the letter was private and should be
kept that way.  There is a "presumed" understanding that the other side will
honor the code of ethics.
Perhaps you feel that he violated your standards, then anything goes, but
then it made you step down one level -- I do not hink that is any of you
want.
Regards,
Peter Soltesz

Joe Szalai was inquiring about who could and who couldn't get into
university in the 1950s. Somewhere he heard that one's parents had to be
party members in order to receive higher education. This was not so. On the
other hand, there were strict quotas based on social origin. I am not 100%
sure of my figures, but I think that they are pretty close. (Maybe Magda can
correct me if I am wrong.) Over 50% of the student body had to come from
workers' families; 35% from peasant families; 10% from the intelligentsia;
and only 5% from the ranks of the former exploiting classes. Therefore, for
example, my chances of getting into university was 1 in 10 regardless of my
grades, intelligence, learnedness, whatever.
        In addition we had a special program called "szake'rettse'gi," which
was designed for older students--let's say 17-25-year olds--who had only
eight-grade education or perhaps even less but who were communist party
members or sympathizers. (Gyula Horn was one of these). These people were
readied for matriculation originally in one year--instead of four--later in
two years. The word "szak" (field, discipline) in front of e'rettse'gi
(matriculation) meant that they attended only classes which were necessary
in order to continue their specialized studies. In addition, these people
didn't have to take an entrance exam--their acceptance was guaranteed. In my
own class, half the people came from these special schools!!! Some were OK;
some were barely literate. But, of course, they never failed anything.
        During 1953 and 1954 (during Imre Nagy's brief premiership) it was a
bit easier to get into university if your background wasn't exactly
impeccable from their point of view. I was lucky that I started college in
September 1954 but believe me it was considered to be a miracle that I
managed to get accepted given my less than desirable background and no
connections.

        Eva Balogh

At 04:58 PM 1/4/97 UT, Istvan Lippai wrote:

<snip>
>All of us who live outside of Hungary are representatives of Hungary,
>like it or not.

This is nonsense.  People represent only themselves.  Only a bigot or a
racist would conclude otherwise.

Joe Szalai

Greetings,
I have some items for sale.
I do not mean to intrude on anyone's newsgroup discussion
but this is some very usefull stuff...

        NT Workstation 3.51 in Hungarian, $60.
        Windows 95 in Hungarian, $75.
        Office 95 Professional in Hungarian, $200.
        Project 95 in Hungarian, $100.
        DOS, Windows 3.1 and WFW 3.11 in Hungarian, $50.

All items are also available in English and several other languages at the
same price.
Other items in English include:
        Visual Basic Ent. Ed., $250.
        Visual C++ 4.2, $150.
        Visual J++ 1.0, $50.

These are not "bootleg" CDs.  They are all original products from
Microsoft.
Please email me if interested.  All prices are open to negotiation.

Thank you,

"Johanne L. Tournier" > wrote:


>BTW, I also subscribe to soc.culture.magyar using HIX as a gateway, and
>to the Hungarian-American List, and I have not received anything from
>them either since the 15th. and the 16th. respectively. What could have
>happened to all of these lists at once?

        Hi! I managed to get on the list with Aniko's help. (By the way, I was
also without a computer for four days thanks to Santa Claus who
brought me a new hard drive. I am sure he meant well ,but awful
problems followed.) I simply can't figure out what happened. I wrote
to Hugh but no answer. I also subscribe to HIX's digest of HUNGARY and
the list doesn't reach HIX either!!! I haven't tried Jozsi Hollosi
yet.

>Anyway, I definitely agree, and I wrote a message to Sam to this effect,
>that if the Hungary List has bitten the dust permanently, it should be
>re-established by us loyal stalwarts. Like Sam, I feel I have learned
>too much from it to simply let it die.

        I would miss HUNGARY very much and I am very much hoping that this
state of affairs is not permanent. I just can't imagine that Hugh
would close up shop without telling us about it.

        I will try to get in touch with Jozsi Hollosi today. He normally
answers me.

        Best, Eva

TEST

Heloo there........this is a test...................

Marina

 wrote:
<snip>
> I am still with you-u-u-u...Kinda like a seance, isn't it?

Very apt, Sam! Except that here the spirits really do respond,
eventually! (Actually, what this reminds me of is all of us being in
different rooms of a strange building when the power suddenly goes off,
leaving us with no vision and trying to find our way to the exits in the
dark).

I'm sorry I
> have not communicated with all of you who have responded to the original
> post on this thread. The Christmas season is the big money-making time in
> the newspaper racket and I have spent this week putting out two issues
> within three days of each other. Now that I'm over the hump, I'll be
> responding to your private e-mail over the next 24 hours.

I wondered what the reason for the delay was. I thought you were an
English teacher and would therefore be having time off instead of double
overtime at this time of year.
>
> Now, on to our list problems. I think we need to start with a test. Will
> everyone post a test to the list when they get this message (Do it under a
> "Test" thread header, please) and let's see who can still post and who
> can't.

I can post, as I said, but I am doing it through Netscape and am getting
nothing, zippo, nada, through e-mail, except a couple of messages that I
got privately.

 Second, I need someone to tell me exactly who owns this list and
> who's responsible for managing it.

It is my understanding that Hugh Agnew is the Listowner. It seems hard
to believe, though, that he would go off on vacation and not leave
someone with instructions to unclog the list.

I know that several of you have tried
> to reach Zoli Fekete, Hugh Agnew and Mr. Hollosi without any success.

I believe that Zoli Fekete is just a nice guy who keeps the Hungarian
FAQ and knows a lot about computers and the Internet, but I don't
believe he has a formal role in relation to our List. Jozsi Hollosi, as
far as I know, just assembles the List digests and sends them out every
night, but I don't believe he otherwise is formally involved with the
List. As Agnes pointed out, the List address is 
and to the best of my knowledge, Hugh Agnew's address is
 Every other time that I have had trouble with the
List (a couple of times) Hugh has always responded, even when he was on
sabbatical in Csehia.

The List actually operates on a computer at George Washington University
in Washington, D.C. I was thinking of suggesting perhaps somebody could
ask Gotthard Saghi-Szabo, who runs the Hungarian-American List, if he
could see if anybody is home at GWU; perhaps he might be able to jog
someone to get this List unclogged.
 If
> anyone knows what server maintains the list or has written to the sysop
> complaining of the problem, please let me know. I know some of us suspect
> that a virus is causing our problem, while others have noted that there
> are other groups experiencing similar problems right now. I'm wondering if
> the holiday season is screwing us up since the universities are currently
> out for the semester break and the people who would usually be maintaining
> the list server are zonked out on palinka and egg nog.

Ditto!
>
> Whatever the case, if we cannot resolve the problem by the end of the
> first full week of January, we will need to talk among ourselves about
> moving on.

I agree!

I have already received information from some of you about your
> technical expertise, academic specialties and willingness to serve if we
> have to take this drastic step.

And I would be willing to serve on such a virtual committee.

<more snips>

Nice to hear from you, Sam, and Agnes, and everybody else, too!

Tisztelettel,

Janka/Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

A Washingtoni Magyar Reformatus Egyhaz urvacsoraval egybekotott
karacsonyi Istentiszteletet tart December 25-en, Karacsony napjan d.e. 11
orai kezdettel a Wesley Theorlogical Seminary kapolnajaban. Cime 4500
Massachussets Anenue, N.W., Washington, D.C.  Az Istentiszteletet
szeretetvendegseg koveti.  Az egyhaz ezuton is hiv minden kornyekbeli
magyart.

To cheer you up,
I just copied this out of the Toronto Star, under news about the weird:

In October, Ferenc Kovacs, who recently invented a singing condom that
plays communist marching songs, opened a "laugh" kiosk in Budapest,
Hungary (widely regarded as one of the most morose cities on Earth).  His
fee ranges from about 2 cents to provoke a smile to about 35 cents for a
laugh. (Sample: Kovacs dons matching black armbands and explains: "I was
talking to my brother yesterday, and it turns out his mother died, too").


Best hgoliday wishes to you all,  Agnes

Joe wrote:
How common was it for kids from Angyalfo:ld to
go to university if they, or their parents, weren't members of the communist
party?  I heard, and as you know I don't believe a lot of things I hear, but
I was told that it was nearly impossible to go to university if you weren't
a member.  I'd be curious to know Lippai Ur's connections.

You needed a high school diploma to enter university. Membership in the MDP was
 not important. Priority was given to the children of the industrial working
class and the agricultural proletariate. the children of the former elite were
excluded. The new elite usually declared its former occupation. Many people
lied about their social origin in order to be accepted.Lower middle class
children could be admitted with high marks - or with connections. Despite
all the efforts of the regime the social composition of the study bodies at
the universities was not significantly altered by the late 1950s, or the 1960s.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

In article >, 
says...
>
>Hello *all*:
>
>I wrote a nice letter for the season to you all on the Hungary list, but
>cannot copy it from my Email program into here.  I am still only able to
>get here through Netscape.  It's long, so I won't re-create it now -
>instead:
>
>Wishing you all a very merry Christmas, a wonderful 97, hopefully a
>reunion via the server after the holidays, and many thanks to each of
you
>for all the knowledge imparted, the friendships that came to be and for
>all the good laughs also.
>
>Merry Holidays, Peace to all,
>Aniko.

Aniko, I think you can copy your e-mail stuff - or anything as long as
you didn't turn your computer off, in the following manner:

- Click on "edit"
- Click on "select all", then click on "copy"
- Exit your e-mail (or write program or whatever)
- Go into the Hungary list (or wherever you want to copy)
- When you inside the document, click "edit" again, and click on paste.
Now you will have your entire stuff copied and can edit it to your
heart's content.

Good luck!

Agnes

When I didn't quite know how to post a new article and asked Eva Balogh
to help me, she posted it for me, and she gave me the server's address as
follows: .  As I already informed you, my message
came back saying that I am not authorized to write to Hungary or
something like that.  You may be right - everybody is on vacation!
Incidentally, where is Eva Balogh, the main supporter and correspondent
of this list?

Agnes

Greetings and Best Wishes to All from the lurker in the land of
blizzard, snow and ice in Canmore, Alberta, Canada.
Eva Kende B.Sc. author of "Eva's Hungarian Kitchen".

Test.

By the way, I got HIX HUNGARY last night but it only had one post to
it.  It still isn't working.

Joe Szalai

Hali, mindenki!

Now it looks like I posted my Christmas greeting message about 8 times.
Unfortunately, when I tried to send it, I got messages back telling me
that the socket was disconnected and to try again. And, indeed, it
seemed that the message had not been sent. Now, I see that apparently
every time I pushed the send button, it did indeed go through.

Sorry!

U:dvo:zlettel,

Janka/Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

Aniko Dunford wrote:
>
> Hello *all*:
<snippetry>
> Wishing you all a very merry Christmas, a wonderful 97, hopefully a
> reunion via the server after the holidays, and many thanks to each of you
> for all the knowledge imparted, the friendships that came to be and for
> all the good laughs also.
>
> Merry Holidays, Peace to all,
> Aniko.

I would like to also extend to all of you the best of holiday wishes. I
am sorry that we can't share this more intimately at this time of year,
but I have a feeling that the on-going problem is due to the shut-down
of the universities due to the holidays. (When I posted my last message,
through inadvertance, I sent one through *mail* and one through *news*,
being unfamiliar with Netscape. The message that went through news got
posted; but I got a message back on e-mail telling me that the List is
being *held*. That is the same thing that happened a week ago. No
change.That leads me to suspect that the List will be resurrected
*after* the holidays. I guess that is one of the *disadvantages* of
depending on academic freebies. If we were relying on commercial
services, they would be obliged to provide more reliable service.)

I would also like to echo Bandi's sentiments that despite on-going
tiffs, we have become a virtual community. It is a rather nice feeling -
maybe there is some good to come out of our deprivation, after all, if
we are brought to a realization of how special this community is.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand - I wish all who may be reading this
List the very merriest of Christmases, the happiest of Hannukah's (which
I suspect must be just about over) and all the best wishes of the
holiday season. And, especially, best wishes for a happy reunion in the
New Year!

Boldog kara'csonyi u:nnepeket!

Janka/Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

Aniko Dunford wrote:
>
> Hello *all*:
<snippetry>
> Wishing you all a very merry Christmas, a wonderful 97, hopefully a
> reunion via the server after the holidays, and many thanks to each of you
> for all the knowledge imparted, the friendships that came to be and for
> all the good laughs also.
>
> Merry Holidays, Peace to all,
> Aniko.

I would like to also extend to all of you the best of holiday wishes. I
am sorry that we can't share this more intimately at this time of year,
but I have a feeling that the on-going problem is due to the shut-down
of the universities due to the holidays. (When I posted my last message,
through inadvertance, I sent one through *mail* and one through *news*,
being unfamiliar with Netscape). The message that went through news got
posted; but I got a message back on e-mail telling me that the List is
being *held*. That is the same thing that happened a week ago. No
change.That leads me to suspect that the List will be resurrected
*after* the holidays. I guess that is one of the *disadvantages* of
depending on academic freebies. If we were relying on commercial
services, they would be obliged to provide more reliable service.

I would also like to echo Bandi's sentiments that despite on-going
tiffs, we have become a virtual community. It is a rather nice feeling -
maybe there is some good to come out of our deprivation, after all, if
we are brought to a realization of how special this community is.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand - I wish all who may be reading this
List the very merriest of Christmases, the happiest of Hannukah's (which
I suspect must be just about over) and all the best wishes of the
holiday season. And, especially, best wishes for a happy reunion in the
New Year!

Boldog kara'csonyi u:nnepeket!

Janka/Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

aheringer wrote:
>
> This is my second reply to you, Sam, and this goes to Aniko too.  Sorry,
> I thought we were OK, when I saw 27 articles.  But then it turned out,
> that I already read 22 of them, so it seems, there are still many people
> who can't come through.  Yes, I am interested to keep it alive.  I am
> afraid however that I can't offer any particular talents.
>
> Re: my reply to Aniko: I noticed too late that I made a type and wrote 22
> articles instead of 222 that was a week ago.
>
> Agnes
Hi, Agnes!

Well, I am going to try this again. As far as I am concerned the List is
still frigged, because I haven't gotten anything through e-mail from the
List for over a week now. I am reading this stuff through Netscape, but
it is just not the same.

BTW, I also subscribe to soc.culture.magyar using HIX as a gateway, and
to the Hungarian-American List, and I have not received anything from
them either since the 15th. and the 16th. respectively. What could have
happened to all of these lists at once?

Anyway, I definitely agree, and I wrote a message to Sam to this effect,
that if the Hungary List has bitten the dust permanently, it should be
re-established by us loyal stalwarts. Like Sam, I feel I have learned
too much from it to simply let it die.

I am on the Legal Technology Committee of the N.S. Barristers' Society,
and they just helped establish a Listserv, and I might be able to borrow
some of the expertise from the guy who actually did the work.

O"szinte tisztelettel,

Johanne

Dear Fellow List Mates:
I think it has become apparent to all of us over the past week that
something has happened to our list server. Many of us are unable to post
messages to it any longer. I don't know if this means a software error in
the server or whether the list has been kicked off its current server.
I've posted one message here asking for an explanation of what's going on,
but it doesn't seem to be forthcoming.

I'd like to continue our faculty club cum pro wrestling cage match because
I've learned a lot about Hungary and Hungarians and I have made many
friends on this list. We may, however, have arrived at a point where,
unless we receive reassurances pretty soon that the current list will
resume normal operations, we will have to take matters into our own hands
and found a new Hungary list. While I'm more than willing to do what I can
if it comes to that, we will need someone (several someones, most likely)
with the technical skills, knowledge and persuasive skills/political clout
to find a new server and to set up a new list.

If we're going to have to go to that extreme, I would suggest that we
embark on it immediately after the start of the new year. For now, if you
want to join and participate in a new list, please e-mail me and let me
know. I'll compile a roster of unindicted co-conspirators which I will
mail out to everyone. Please indicate any areas of technical expertise,
academic interest or compromising photographs of your congressman/member
of Parliament which would be of use to us in establishing a new list. It
would be nice if we had someone among our ranks who has started one of
these things up before and knows how to do it.

If anyone knows why the Hungary list has taken the gas pipe during the
past week or so and can give us some information, please e-mail me. If
this is a temporary interruption until after the holiday break, that's
fine. But if the list is being permanently discontinued, I'd like to know
so those of us interested in carrying on can get together and get
something in the works.

I hope this finds all of you in good health.
Sam Stowe

"I need not tell you that true patriotism sometimes requires
of me to act contrary at one period to that which it does at
another, and the motive that impels them -- the desire to do
right -- is precisely the same..."
-- Gen Robert E.Lee in an October, 1865, personal letter to
Gen. P.G.T. Beauregard.

Highly reccommended reading

<http://www.netside.net/romanian_lobby/anatomy.htm>;

Test!

Kedves Olvass!

A napokban felzjmtottam a www-oldalam ahol a kvvetkezv timarsl
olvashat:

        - versek (tvlem, a mamamtsl, meg linkek mas "komoly" mrskhoz)
        - magyar linkek (szinte mindenhova eljuthat ezekbvl kiindolva)
        - kanadai linkek (ugyancsak messzemenvek)
        - tudomany is kutatas az Interneten (angolul)
        - Net-linkek (itt ingyenes e-mailt es Web oldalt is kaphat!)
        - egy romantika link-oldal a szeretetre vagysknak :-)
        - ha megtalalja a titkos linket, akar a Kosszth meg a Petvfi radis
          adasat is hallhatja EGYENESBEN nalam!

Kirem latogasson be hozzam, szmvilyes fogadtatasban lesz risze!

A pontos URL cmm:

        http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/2707

(hasznalhatja a COPY is a PASTE -t hogy ne tivedjen!)

Elvre is kvszvnvm szipen a latogatast! Kellemes |nnepeket kmvanok!

Szabs Attila

Hello to all,

I posted something to this list on December 12th. Ever since I have not
received HUNGARY. According to HIX, through which I originally subscribed
over a year ago, I'm still on their HUNGARY list. I've tried through Hugh
 &  to no avail. Who is in charge of the list these
days?? Can someone who knows e-mail me to my private address?

Thanks in advance,

Anna Mogyorosy

Recently I wrote a letter from my heart regarding my foster mother Wendy
Mcghee.
She
had no knowledge of this letter unitl she started receiving lovely cards.  But
then
came some nasty letters.  She is asking me to repost her letter here.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
----------------
"Thank you for the wonderful cards! I have returned the gifts that I could to
the senders.
Other gifts without return addresses were given to the Salvation Army.  I am
sure however that
there is a child in your area who may go without a Christmas.  I am asking
therefore thank
you take your gift and good will and make that local child a little happier at
Christmas

Sincerely,
Wendy McGhee "
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
----------------

I would also like to add something.

                                         This was not a scam!

And for those of you who wrote those nasty letters, "Shame on you!!!"  This was
simply
something I wanted to do to make the lady that cared for me and others so much
to know
that she is loved for what she has done.  No one had to send money or gifts or
even a card.
This was a request that IF you felt like doing so show some kindness.  Kind
words would have
been ENOUGH. She didn't do anything to deserve some of the letters that were
sent.

As she wrote to me she is returning the gifts and donating the one that are
unreturnable.

And for those of you reading this for the first time, it would be great if you
could simply
sent a postcard or letter to her for her birthday the 27th of December. Tell
thanks for
the kindness she's shown others and tell her I said I love her.


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
----------------
The letter I previously posted:

"Thanks for taking the time to read this message! This is about a lady that
gave
all she could
to everyone, including me. Her name is Wendy.   When I was young she became my
foster mother
after my real mother had abandon me. Never having any kids of her own she
became
a foster
parent. That I got to be in her care was probably the best thing that had ever
happened to me.
She had other foster children and even ended up taking care of many of the
neighborhood kids.


Wendy is a lady that just never gave up and always gave more than anyone could
imagine. I no
longer think of my real mother as mother but rather Wendy as my only true
mother. I know that
I'm not the only one that thinks that way either. It wasn't just kids that she
helped it
included the elderly, the disabled and the just down and out.  What it takes to
qualify for a
saint is something I never found out, but I know it can't be more than the
things I saw this
lady do for anybody.  Even people that had wronged her could find themselves
looking up at her
while she helped them when they were down.

I'm 26 now and many of the things I'm telling you I never really realized until
now.  Since I
was a kid she has helped me with everything from recovering from my mistakes to
just being
there to say "You can do it... It'll be okay."  I've never been able to make a
good attempt
at trying to repay her for all she's done for me and I'm not alone.  Many
people
just have
taken for granted the things she's done for them.


I know by now you're asking yourself why I've posted this letter.  Well, to be
honest and
straight with you it's because I would like your help. If there's one thing
that
I've learned
from Wendy it's that, "We are our neighbors keepers."  You know the golden
rule,
"Do onto
others as you would have them do onto you." Anyway now Wendy is an older lady
that is disabled
and can't do as much as she used to.  With the disability sometimes expenses
can
be too much.
 I now live in Arkansas and can't be of much help. With no real family I'd like
to do
something to try to repay all she done for me and many others.

That's were you come in.  See if you can think back to someone that helped you
no matter how
big or small.  Maybe it's someone you can't even remember or have lost touch
with.  For that
moment picture Wendy and say, "I'd like to repay that kindness."  I wish you
would sit down
and write a small note saying "Thanks for being the generous person that you
have been!" If
you could include something to help out.  Maybe it's a five dollar bill, a book
of stamps,
even a dollar.  Oh and would you also tell her the Steffin sends his love.  Her
birthday is
this month on the 27th and I'm hoping I can make this own a very memorable
one.

        Thanks for reading and if you choose to help God pless you. Her address
is

Wendy Mcghee
9636 Elm
Taylor, Mi 48180"

This is another test.  This time I'm using Eudora.

Joe Szalai

Kosova Information Center
KOSOVA DAILY REPORT #1033
Prishtina, 16 December 1996

CONTENTS
[01] President Rugova Ends His U.S. Trip
[02] President Rugova to Receive Honorary Degree in Paris Monday
[03] "Very Good, Very Positive Discussions with Dr. Rugova", Rudolf Perina
Tells VOA
[04] UN General Assembly Adopts Resolution on Kosova
[05] Serbian Authorities Hold 12 Albanians at Prishtina Airport
-
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
[01] President Rugova Ends His U.S. Trip

President of the Republic of Kosova Dr. Ibrahim Rugova ended his week-long
visit to the United States of America, where he discussed Kosova with top
State Department officials and other senior members of the U.S.
administration.

U.S. Secretary of State Warren Christopher and Deputy Secretary Strobe
Talbott reaffirmed strong U.S. support for Kosova during a meeting with
President Rugova Thursday afternoon in Washington.

"The current lack of these rights [full human and political rights for the
people of Kosova] is unacceptable and the U.S. supports Dr. Rugova's
efforts to change the situation through peaceful and democratic means", a
State Department release reported.

President Rugova met also with Senior Director and Special Assistant to
the
U.S. President Clinton for European Affairs Sandy Vershbow.

[02] President Rugova to Receive Honorary Degree in Paris Monday

President of the Republic of Kosova Dr. Ibrahim Rugova is in Paris,
France,
to receive an honorary degree from the Paris 8 University at Sorbonne.

The ceremony, in which Ibrahim Rugova will be granted a Doctor Honoris
Cause degree, will take place today (Monday) afternoon.

The University of Paris 8 has granted Ibrahim Rugova the degree, honoring
his work as a literary critic as well as his political action in support
of
the legitimate rights of the Albanians of Kosova, pursuing a non-violent
resistance.

The BBC Albanian Section reported Sunday the circle of intellectuals of
the
Paris 8 University as well as the Paris-based Committee Kosova protested
vigorously against a veto of the French government which aimed at the
annulment of the Doctor Honoris Causa which the University wanted to honor
him with. The French intellectuals maintained this was in contradiction to
the traditional autonomy universities enjoy in a democratic country.

Dr. Ibrahim Rugova has become a moral and concrete model of the
possibility
of co-existence between different communities, the biographical note
prepared on the occasion of the presentation of the degree said. He has
been forced into politics, but he has become a prominent and extraordinary
figure, an exemplary case, the bio concluded.

[03] "Very Good, Very Positive Discussions with Dr. Rugova", Rudolf Perina
Tells VOA

In the aftermath of a meeting President of the Republic of Kosova Dr.
Ibrahim Rugova had in Washington with Secretary of State Warren
Christopher
last week, the Senior Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for European
Issues, Mr. Rudolf Perina, said that "the discussions with Dr. Rugova were
very good and very positive".

In an interview with the VOA Albanian Section Saturday, Mr. Perina said
the
Secretary Christopher expressed the U.S. respect for the peaceful policy
and the constructive method Dr. Rugova has been applying in the bid to
settle the Kosova issue and restore the human and political rights in
Kosova.

Designating a special envoy for Kosova would in certain circumstance be
right, the senior State Department officials said, adding that for the
time
being the American Government does not think that this would be
appropriate.

Rudolf Perina told VOA that in all meetings and contacts with President
Milosevic of Serbia, the USA raised the question of Kosova. Kosova is high
on the agenda of the U.S. foreign policy, he emphasized.

The future status of Kosova should guarantee the respect of human rights,
he said, adding that the U.S. does not support the demands for
independence
of Kosova.

"Independence means [entails] the changing of borders", Rudolf Perina
noted,
adding that without the consent of both sides [the Serbian and the Kosova,
KIC] the changing of borders would be too problematic, and would perhaps
not be achieved peacefully.

The Senior Deputy Assistant Secretary of State said the U.S. are of the
opinion that Kosova should have a special status which would guarantee the
legitimate political, civil and human rights of the people of Kosova.

Meanwhile, Secretary of State Warren Christopher said Thursday in
Washington that he had great respect for President Rugova. "I met Dr.
Rugova of Kosova today afternoon and I have great respect for his
endurance
and dignity and the path he has pursued in his bid for the realization of
his goals, under very difficult circumstance", Secretary Christopher said
speaking at the State Department, on the occasion of the human rights day,
the Albanian- language Bujku newspaper reported Monday.

[04] UN General Assembly Adopts Resolution on Kosova

The UN General Assembly adopted last Friday a Resolution on Kosova which
calls for the 'respect of the will of the Kosova inhabitants as the best
means in preventing the situation in Kosovo from deteriorating into
violent
conflict'.

Deploring the human rights abuses of Albanians in Kosova by the "FRY"
authorities the resolution calls on "FRY" to undertake all the measures to
bring to an end all forms of human rights abuses against the Albanian
people of Kosova.

The Resolution calls on the UN Secretary General to report on the
situation
in Kosova in the next session of the UN General Assembly, and suggests for
an increased permanent international presence on the ground.

It also calls for the establishment of genuine democratic institutions in
Kosova, including the parliament and the judiciary.

The resolution on Kosova, co-sponsored by Albania and 22 other countries
entitled "Separate resolution on human rights situation in Kosovo" was
initially passed by the Third Committee of the UN Assembly in late
November
this year.

[05] Serbian Authorities Hold 12 Albanians at Prishtina Airport

12 Kosova Albanians, including is a mother with two children, have been
held in the Prishtina airport since Saturday, today's Albanian-language
Bujku newspaper reports.

Meanwhile, the Prishtina-based Council for the Defence of Human Rights and
Freedoms (CDHRF) says that on 7 December, the Serbian- installed
authorities at the Prishtina airport held Januz Rakaj (1962) from Prizren,
and Idriz Sjarina (1947) from Prishtina. They were both travelling home
from Germany. The CDHRF could not find out whether they were allowed to
enter Kosova or were instead sent back to Germany.

Idriz Sjarina is a disabled person. He has been in Germany for health
reasons, CDHRF said, adding that he had been subjected to torture while in
custody at the Prishtina airport.

Both Rakaj and Sjarina had all the due documentation in their possession,
CDHRF said.

Kosova Information Center


------------------------------

In article >, InfiNet writes:

>Subject:       important--you must read this!
>From:  InfiNet
>Date:  Mon, 16 Dec 1996 21:24:18 GMT
>
>
>Take five minutes to read this and it WILL change your life.
>

<nagy sznip>

>               TRY IT AND YOU'LL BE HAPPY !!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------- Headers --------------------
>Path:
>newsbf05.news.aol.com!newstf02.news.aol.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!howland.
erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uwm.edu!newsspool.doit.wi
sc.edu!night.primate.wisc.edu!nntp.msstate.edu!news.memphis.edu!news
>From: InfiNet
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.hungary
>Subject: important--you must read this!
>Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 21:24:18 GMT
>Organization: The University of Memphis
>Lines: 164
>Message-ID: >
>NNTP-Posting-Host: wok1-11.memphis.edu
>X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
>
>

Hey, whaddaya know? The list is FUBARed for nearly an entire week for most
of us, but some blowhole's illegal chain letter manages to make its way
through the server. Bitnet -- what a communication medium!
Sam Stowe

"I need not tell you that true patriotism sometimes requires
of me to act contrary at one period to that which it does at
another, and the motive that impels them -- the desire to do
right -- is precisely the same..."
-- Gen Robert E.Lee in an October, 1865, personal letter to
Gen. P.G.T. Beauregard.

I'm looking for the book Csendorsors. If anybody is familiar with
the title and the publisher or the retailer please let me know.
                                                  thank you
                                                Rudolph Koranyi

Students at the Technical University of Budapest were required to serve in the
military one month after the first, second and third(?) academic year, and an
additional 3 or 6(?) months after graduation.

During the summer of 1956, we were stationed in a military camp in the
country.  I just finished (barely) my first year.  There were also students
who finished their second and third(?) year.  They did not feed us much.
Cabbage soup (Kaposzta leves), a little vegetable, and a small piece of bread.
 We were young and pretty strong, and took it pretty well.  There were some
who wrote home asking for food, complaining of starvation.  Those were
publicly denounced by the political officers.  The comrades (usson belejuk a
nyari villam) were reading our mail.

Political officers were genuine communist garbage.  It was their job to weed
out those who could not be trusted (megbizhatatlano, osztaly ellenseg).  Spies
in uniform.

This summer, the communists were unsure of themselves.  Their masters in
Moscow were debating the direction of the party and the local traitors had no
clue.  It was downright funny.  In the required class on Marxist-Leninist
class the political professors (Imagine those mental midgets next to a real
Hungarian professor of science.) would give you an "A" no matter what you
said.

Naturally, we were emboldened, and the communist garbage coming from the
political officers was harder to take.  There was one particular officer.  His
name was Haramja.  We called him Haramia (Borzasztosag).  I and two of my
classmates (I wish I could still remember their names.)  had some fun with
this officer and the commander told us that we would have to serve 30-days in
stockade.

On the last day before the other student left, the communists had everyone in
a huge room and tried to have one of those "how great the everything is"
meeting.  Suddenly, one after another the students started asking about us and
demanding that we be allowed to leave with them.  The meeting turned into a
shouting match with hundreds of students joining in.  It was an experience
that I will never forget.  I did not know most of these students.  I was so
proud of them.  The communists were still in power and these students were
risking their future for three students they did not even know.

We were allowed to go home the next day.  When I returned to school in
September, students, I did not know, would speak to me, "hi Lippai" (szevasz
Lippai).  I would turn back and say "thank you" (koszonom).

It was the spirit of those days when Hungarians would take risks and stand up
for other Hungarians.  It was that same spirit that got thousands of students
and factory workers together at the statue of Polish patriot Bem in support of
workers of Poznan.

Even if you were born after 1956, it is your history and tradition.  Those
people were your brothers, sisters, maybe your uncle.

Lippai Istvan

what happened? are we out of business?

It was the night before Christmas, and Santa was a wreck. How to live
     in a world that/s politically correct?
     His workers no longer would answer to //Elves//. //Vertically
     Challenged,// they were calling themselves; And labor conditions at the
     North Pole
     Were alleged by the unions to stifle the soul.

     The reindeer had vanished, without much propriety, Released to the
     wilds by the Humane Society.
     And equal employment had made it quite clear That Santa had better not
     use just reindeer. So Dancer and Donner, Comet and Cupid,
     Were replaced by four pigs, and you know that looked stupid!

     The runners had all been removed from his sleigh; the ruts were termed
     dangerous by the EPA.
     And people had started to call for the cops When they heard sled
     noises on their roof-tops.
     Smoke from his pipe had workers quite frightened. His fur-trimmed suit
     was called, //unenlightened.//

     And to show you the strangeness of life/s ebbs and flows, Rudolph was
     suing over use of his nose.
     He had gone on Geraldo, in front of the nation, Demanding millions in
     over-due compensation.

     So, half of the reindeer were gone; and his wife, Who suddenly said
     she/d had enough of this life,
     Joined a self-help group, packed, and left in a whiz, Demanding from
     now on her title was Ms.

     And as for gifts, he/d never had a notion
     That making a choice could cause so much commotion. Nothing of
     leather, nothing of fur,
     Which meant nothing for him, and nothing for her.

     Nothing that might be construed to pollute. Nothing to aim, nothing to
     shoot.
     Nothing that clamored or made lots of noise. Nothing for just girls,
     or just for the boys. Nothing that claimed to be gender specific,
     Nothing that/s warlike, or non-pacifistic.

     No candy or sweets - they were bad for the tooth Nothing that seemed
     to embellish a truth.
     And fairy tales, while not yet forbidden, Were like Ken and Barbie,
     better off hidden.
     They raised the hackles of those psychological, Who claimed the only
     good gift was ecological.

     No baseball, no football, someone could get hurt; Besides, playing
     sports exposed kids to dirt. Dolls were said to be sexist, and should
     be passe. Nintendo would rot your entire brain away.

     So, Santa just stood there, disheveled, perplexed; He just could not
     figure out what to do next.
     He tried to be merry, he tried to be gay,
     But you/ve got to be careful with that word today. His sack was quite
     empty, limp to the ground; Nothing acceptable was to be found.

     Something special was needed, a gift that he might Give to all without
     angering the left or the right. A gift that would satisfy, with no
     indecision,

     angering the left or the right. A gift that would satisfy, with no
     indecision,
     Each group of people, every religion; Every ethnicity, every skin hue;
     Everyone, everywhere - even you.
     so here is that gift, it/s priced beyond worth - //May you and your
     loved ones enjoy peace on earth.//

     MERRY CHRISTMAS

     * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Hapy holidays to all! BUEK!

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

The New York Times reports that once again books are being banned in
Hungary. The article doesn't elaborate on how the authorities reconcile
this action with freedom of expression or the alleged commitment to
ideals of a liberal democracy.

The Nazis burned, the Communists banned books, jailed and persecuted
writers. The Vatican has its index of forbidden books. Until recently
Galileo was on the list. The Iranian Revolution should remind those
believing in censorship that with radio casettes and now the power of
the internet, frontiers are porous to the propagation of ideas.
Censorship may be invoked, temporarily may cause hardship, but
ultimately will not work. The best antidote to onerous ideas is exposure
and examination. At elite universities in the US books on idealogies
alien to our way of life are required reading. It has not led to the
rise of any of the isms. The age when the chief priest decided what
constitutes consumable information is long past. One can only hope that
before long, East-Central Europeans too, will realize the folly of
censorship.

CSABA K ZOLTANI

OPEN LETTER TO THE CITIZENS OF BELGRADE

While shells were raining down on Sarajevo, Gorazde, Vukovar, you
'threatened' Serbs walked quietly on the Knez Mihajlova, and you planned
your holidays on the Montenegrin coast, because Dubrovnik was showing too
many signs of the madness of your soldiers.

You did not utter a single word in protest at the destruction of the towns
where you had friends not so long ago, and where you spent your holidays.
You continued to go out to restaurants, theatres, cinemas while the
citizens of Tuzla, Mostar, Bijeljine, Gradacas where hiding in their
cellars, fearing for their lives.

Have you, just for one second, thought of the innocent children, who all
looked so much like your own kids, on whom the shells where raining down
every day ?

You were concerned about your 'threatened' minorities in Croatia and
Bosnia and now it is clear to what extent they were 'threatened'. Behind
them, there is nothing but ruins, blood, death and desolation.

Your idols are war-criminals!

While your soldiers were unable to take our cities, they destroyed them.
You did not like the sight of Roman Catholic churches, mosques, you did
not even respect the Red Cross-sign on our hospitals!

Even the Turks, your arch-ennemies, did not destroy your churches and
monasteries. Decani, Zica, Miloseva and all your other holy places remain
intact, you behave like real Barbarians !

As a matter of fact, we find it incredible that you were once our
fellow-citizens, that we used to be friends, because during the war in
Bosnia you showed your real faces, full of hatred, evil and indifference.
You are the group most responsible for the destruction of Yugoslavia,
because you could not bear not to be the most priviliged people in the
country any more. You did not accept the option of a confederation. Your
only option was war. The one you promised us at Gazimestan. At the time,
we, other Yugoslavs, did not believe that you would realize Milosevic's
plans with such a zeal.

Nowadays you march to protest against your F hrer, the same one you
adored not so long ago. The world has witnessesed w your lament: we are
hungry, we are unemployed, we are the outcasts of the international
community. That is logical: the war has ended, and you can no longer
pillage Bosnia and the other republics of Ex-Yugoslavia.

 How are you going to explain to your children why everybody considers
them to be the worst barbarians of the late-twentieth century ? You have
shown that you are without morality, without courage and without
conscience. You don't even have feelings of solidarity with the Serbs who,
as a result of your politics, were driven from their homes in Kosovo,
Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 The only thing we can wish is that one day, you too, will understand what
it means to die of hunger in a shelter while your fellow-citizens are
shooting at you from the neighboring mountains, while your country is
ravaged by blood-thirsty furious fools, while your patrimony and culture
are destroyed, and that one day, you too, will understand what it means to
live in exile.

 Suada Tozo Waldmann, originally from Gorazde, vice-president of the
Association for the Renaissance of Bosnia and Herzegovina's National
Library, which was destroyed by serb shelling in August 1992.

Translated from French by Frank Tiggelaar

                 LETTRE AUX HABITANTS DE BELGRADE

Pendant que les obus pleuvaient sur les Sarajevo, Gorazde, Vukovar, vous
les Serbes 'menaces' vous vous promeniez tranquillement sur la Knez
Mihajlova, vous projetiez vos vacances sur la cote montenegrine car
Dubrovnik portait deja trop de traces de folie de vos soldats.

Vous n'aviez pas eu un seul mot de protestation contre la destruction des
villes dans lesquelles il n'y a pas tres longtemps vous aviez des amis et
ou vous passiez vos vacances. Vous aviez continue a sortir dans les
restaurants, au theatre, au cinema pendant que les habitants de Tuzla,
Mostar, Bijeljina, Gradacas etaient tapis dans leurs caves craignant pour
leur vie.

Aviez-vous pense une seule seconde aux enfants innocents semblables aux
votres sur lesquels tombaient quotidiennement les obus ?

Vous etiez inquiets pour vos minorites 'menacees' en Croatie et en Bosnie
et maintenant on voit bien   quel point ils  taient 'menaces'. Derriere
eux il ne reste que des ruines, le sang, la mort et la desolation.

Vos idoles sont des criminels de guerre !

Lorsque vos soldats ne pouvaient pas prendre nos villes, ils les
d etruisaient. Les eglises catholiques, les mosquees vous genaient, vous
ne
respectiez meme pas le signe de la Croix Rouge sur nos hopitaux !

Meme les Turcs, vos pires ennemis de toujours, ne d truisaient pas vos
eglises et vos monastaires. Decani, Zica, Miloseva et tous vos lieux
saints
sont demeures intacts, vous, chretiens, vous vous comportiez comme des
vrais barbares !

Actuellement, il nous semble incroyable que vous aviez pu etre nos
concitoyens, que nous etions autrefois amis car pendant la guerre en
Bosnie vous aviez montre votre veritable face, celle de la haine, du mal
et de l'indiffirence. Vous etes parmi les plus responsables pour la
destruction de la Yougoslavie, car vous n'aviez pas supporte de ne plus
 tre le peuple le plus priviligie de ce pays. Vous n'aviez pas accepte
l'option de la confederation. Votre seule option etait la guerre. Celle
que vous nous aviez promis a Gazimestan. A l'epoque, nous, les autres
Yougoslaves, nous ne croyions pas que vous alliez mettre a l'execution
avec tant d'application les projets de Milosevic, votre vozd dument !

Ces jours-ci, vous protestez contre votre f hrer que vous adoriez il n'y
pas tres longtemps. Vous pleurnichez: nous avons faim, nous sommes au
chomage, nous sommes les pariahs de la communaut  internationale. C'est
normal, il n'y plus de guerre, d sormais vous ne pouvez plus piller la
Bosnie et les autres r publiques de l'ex-yougoslavie.

Comment allez-vous expliquer a vos enfants la raison pour laquelle tout le
monde les deteste et considere comme les plus grands barbares de la fin du
XX si cle ? Vous avez demontre que vous avez ni de la morale, ni du
courage, ni de la conscience . Vous n'avez m me pas de sentiment de
solidarite envers les serbes que votre politique demente a chasse du
Kosovo, de la Croatie et de la Bosnie-Herzegovine.

La seule chose que nous pouvons vous souhaiter est qu'un jour, vous aussi,
vous appreniez ce que veut dire mourir de la faim dans les abris alors que
vos concitoyens vous tirent dessus des collines avoisinantes, que votre
pays soit ravage par des fous furieux sanglants, qu'on detruise votre
patrimoine et votre culture et qu'un jour vous aussi, vous appreniez ce
que veut dire etre exile.

Suada Tozo Waldmann, originaire de Gorazde et vice-presidente de
l'Association pour la Renaissance de la Bibliotheque Nationale de
Bosnie-Herzegovine, detruite par les bombardements serbes en aout 1992

I haven't received any mail from Hungary since last Thursday,
December 14, 1996.  I am wondering  whether the List  is down or
there is a problem at my end.

                                 Amos

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 wrote:

>In article >, InfiNet writes:
>
>>Subject:      important--you must read this!

>
>Hey, whaddaya know? The list is FUBARed for nearly an entire week for most
>of us, but some blowhole's illegal chain letter manages to make its way
>through the server. Bitnet -- what a communication medium!
>Sam Stowe

You mean it's SNAFU? You're too young to know WWII GI parlance. Wonder
if there are Hungarian equivalents.

Was there really a robot at the Smithsonian that introduced itself as
"Fubar" or is this yet another urban myth? Inquiring minds want to
know.

Also, has anyone noticed that FUBAR looks very much like FUNAR? Wonder
if there is a relationship.....just free-associating... it's either
that or buckle under the yoke of the
imperialistic-materialistic-capitalistic demand of a market-driven
economy and wrap presents.

I remember, in 196sumptn', watching in utter disbelief, the decorating
of the palm trees on Sunset Blvd (LA), right after Labor Day. At 11 in
the evening, the temperature was 83 deg. F. Christmas has never been
the same again for me.... I long for the days of post-war
Transylvania... the hunger, the cold, the lack of presents,..... the
good Ole' Days.

Why are you posting these articles regularly on the Hungary list, and how
come you are almost the only one getting through to the list?

Agnes

At 04:09 PM 12/11/96 +0000, Eva Durant wrote in connection of Peter
Soltesz's chastisement of my making public my private mail:

>The point is, that the non-too-couragous but Most Hungarian
>correspondent did not want to go as far in nastiness
>in public, so he called Eva B. names in private.
>The post office not allowed to open private mail,
>but an individual owns his/her mail and may do anything
>with it.

        Quite, Eva, and I chose to make it public. My own prerogative.

        Eva B.

Could you help me in finding lids of my family.

My father's name is POLONYI AUREL BELA borned october 15 1913 in
TISZAPALKONYA.
His father POLONYI ANTAL
His mother GIBAS ANNA

Also the family of POLONYI MIHALY december 26 1923 in NAGYVARAD (Romania).

Is there a more concerned newsgroup?

english/french/ungarn  angol/franciaul/magyar

My adress 

Thanks.

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                TRY IT AND YOU'LL BE HAPPY !!!!!!!!!!

Peter,

Good insight.  I can confirm all with the exception of 1960s.  I was not
there, thank God.

The funny part is that the communists kissed our 'proli' asses and still we
were the ones the turned the table on them.  Of the 200 or so students at the
University National Guard, most were children of workers and peasants.

My friend and I went to the 'lakas' of a 'belvarosi' classmate to ask him to
join us.  His father was somebody before the war.  He almost dirtied his
pants.  The members of the former ruling classes were so terrorized by the
communists that they were afraid to speak or act in any way that could be
construed as being against the communists.

Istvan

----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Peter I. Hidas
Sent:  Tuesday, January 07, 1997 6:32 AM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: Was he?

Joe wrote:
How common was it for kids from Angyalfo:ld to
go to university if they, or their parents, weren't members of the communist
party?  I heard, and as you know I don't believe a lot of things I hear, but
I was told that it was nearly impossible to go to university if you weren't
a member.  I'd be curious to know Lippai Ur's connections.

You needed a high school diploma to enter university. Membership in the MDP
was
 not important. Priority was given to the children of the industrial working
class and the agricultural proletariate. the children of the former elite were
excluded. The new elite usually declared its former occupation. Many people
lied about their social origin in order to be accepted.Lower middle class
children could be admitted with high marks - or with connections. Despite
all the efforts of the regime the social composition of the study bodies at
the universities was not significantly altered by the late 1950s, or the
1960s.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Joe Szalai wrote:

> At 04:58 PM 1/4/97 UT, Istvan Lippai wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >All of us who live outside of Hungary are representatives of Hungary,
> >like it or not.
>
> This is nonsense.  People represent only themselves.  Only a bigot or a
> racist would conclude otherwise.
>
> Joe Szalai
>

sorry Joe, it wouldn't be racsism to my mind. We all classify based on
some knowledge. Brains don't really like the complexities that a true
plural society entails. Whether we like it or not, I am a representative
of what it is like to be an American every time I go to Hungary and SE
Europe. I will only make a part of the impression people have of
Americans, but it will be a part, whether I wish to be identified as such.

A bigot or racist would only see the representation that they imposed on a
person, and dismiss any other possible view.

Just my thoughts on a slow day

Darren Purcell
Program for Instructional Excellence
Department of Geography
Florida State University

On Sat, 21 Dec 1996, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:
>[...]
> I can post, as I said, but I am doing it through Netscape and am getting

 That's presumably to the Usenet gateway group bit.listserv.hungary, which
wouldn't do much good unless the LISTSERV is up and running because
that's what's distributing the posts to email subscribers (and propagates
the list traffic back to the b.l.s too)...

>[...]
> I know that several of you have tried
> > to reach Zoli Fekete, Hugh Agnew and Mr. Hollosi without any success.

 As a matter of fact, no-one has tried to reach me (or not hard enough),
since I received nothing ;-()...

> I believe that Zoli Fekete is just a nice guy
 Indeed :-)!

>who keeps the Hungarian
> FAQ and knows a lot about computers and the Internet, but I don't
> believe he has a formal role in relation to our List. Jozsi Hollosi, as
> far as I know, just assembles the List digests and sends them out every
> night, but I don't believe he otherwise is formally involved with the

 Exactly so; unfortunately HIX' help material is somewhat less than
optimal in preventing the many misunderstandings that could result from
the setup, and apparently my FAQ (and additional posted explanations)
aren't doing an adequate job either ;-(...

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!

 Visit 'Boycott Internet Spam' <http://www.vix.com/spam/>;

All of you who have a *burning desire* to see what kinds of dogs I
breed, my nine-months-old basset hound's picture in living colors is
available on the Internet. His name is Brevis Stanford and he is one of the
nicest-looking basset you ever want to see. He is a red-and-white which is
not unusual but not very common either. Most of the basset hounds are
tri-colored: black, brown, and white. In addition to being a very handsome
fellow he is also a sweet-sweet dog.

        Here is the address: htp://www.princeton.edu/~nadelman/bhca/futop.jpg

        Eva Balogh

Istvan Lippai wrote:

>In my view, it would be no great loss, if this list got cancelled.
>>
>>Istvan Lippai

After having made that statement, the next logical/intelligent move would
be for you to unsubscribe.  At least, that is what Logical, Intelligent
beings would do - especially if they wanted to "save face".
Aniko

Lippai Ur:


In response to your note as attached below I will try to make this as
clear as humanly possible: =20

>From now on, <bold>Please stop bothering me privately.</bold>  If, and
when you feel the need to further harrass, intimidate, manipulate, judge,
or whatever the hell it is you think you're doing, do so via the group.=20
It becomes easier to filter that way.


As for your help?  Thanks.  Acceptance would surmount to playing Russian
Roulette.  And since I abhor the very concept of the game, along with
guns et al, well... I am sure that you can self-categorize the value of
of your offered help.

Aniko - the "young, troubled, searching for roots *not* hungarian".


>>Tue, 7 Jan 97 21:55:48 UT

>>From: "Istv=E1n Lippai" >

>>To: "Aniko Dunford" >

>>Subject: Just trying to help you

>>

>>Aniko >>

>>It would be a waste of effort to post a response to your ramblings.

>>

>>The best I can do is to respond with a private letter.  You are welcome
to go=20

>>public, I just do not think it has any value.

>>

>>Next time try;

>>

>>INTRODUCTION

>>DISCUSSION

>>CONCLUSIONS AND/OR RECOMMENDATIONS

>>

>>Good luck and best wishes,

>>

>>Istvan

>>

>>

>>----------

>>From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Aniko Dunford

>>Sent:  Tuesday, December 10, 1996 7:54 PM

>>To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY

>>Subject:  Re: To everybody

>>

>>Lippai Ur:

>>

>>Remember me?  I am the one you deemed non-Hungarian, does not like
you,

>>young person searching for my roots, troubled by my life to the point
of

>>choosing to lash out at you in lieu of  my parents, rambling ... to
name a

>>few of your kind adjectives re my person; since you have known me for
soooo

>>long.

>>

>>I did receive your note yesterday, and am answering for one simple
reason;

>>that being, that I feel if I don't, your ego will enjoy unnecessary

>>inflation, by thinking that you'd succeeded at intimidating me.  (fact
is,

>>my Email program let me down by crashing last night - by the time I

>>recovered it, our server was having troubles, so I am unable to even
quote

>>your reply)  But let's go from memory:

>>

>>"You don't like me" was I believe one of your opening statements - my
reply

>>- is, how the hell can I can like or dislike you, when I don't know
you

>>from Adam?  For sure though your approach and tactics did and continue
to

>>bring out the worst reactions in me.  Nor are they conducive to
drawing

>>compassion.

>>

>>If, I appear to be rambling - well, what the hell?  Not all of us are
as

>>apt at writing as to suit your expectations.  But it could also be, due
to

>>the fact that you cannot remember your private notes sent to my Email

>>address and thus, you're loosing something in the context of my=20
reply.

>>Perhaps, if I re-send them to you; or post them to the group, my
rambling

>>can take on at least some form of acceptable logic?  Your call.

>>

>>Regarding the statement of my lashing out at my parents - is a=20
typical

>>example of your exhibited standard of utilizing what you consider to
be

>>good offence, for defense.  Has anyone ever told you, that this tactic
is

>>transparent?  If not I am telling you now.  With this comment, you
managed

>>to sidetrack the issue of my question, regarding communists in the US
for

>>one.  And ... please don't come back telling me, that I show no respect
for

>>your age, and what you lived through - seeing that I am so young and
all?

>>I repeat ... I feel extremely sorry for anyone having lived through
such

>>ordeals ... but I have no respect whatsoever, for the way you are

>>presenting *your* version of Hungarian history.  As for lashing out at
my

>>parents, or something of sort you said; you don't know a damned thing
about

>>me, my life my past.  Nor do I care to enlighten you with any of it.=20
In

>>fact, your knowledge of me is so accurate, that only three posts ago,
you

>>were rather apologetic, at the fact that I am not Hungarian.=20
Remember?

>>

>>In short - I feel rather sorry for you.  You continue to make
judgements on

>>persons you know zilch about - by manipulating their words to suit
means to

>>your own end you attempt to bring them down in other's eyes.  (Notice,
the

>>operative word is "attempt").  And you're absolutely right!  There=20
are

>>choices on this group.  Thanks for enlightening me especially to the
one

>>called "ignore" - you know, being so young and troubled and all; =20
that

>>option has simply never occurred to me!

>>

>>When, you come down from your soap box (thanks Marina!) and attempt to
show

>>respect for those you are trying teach, respect for their knowledge
(though

>>it might be higher than that of your experiences) perhaps my young
mind

>>will actually learn something ... in the meantime, all you have
enforced,

>>is that one must always remember that there are people in the world,
who

>>are so sly and cleverly manipulative that they can without trying at
all,

>>make some believe that the world is rectangular.  Not to mention

>>hateful.... Eva B, a communist? Now there's a *real* good one!!!  Where
is

>>your mind man?  Have you ever heard of archives?  Go back and read a
few!

>>

>>You, being accused of anything negative?  No!!! Not possible!!!
Never!!!

>>

>>Martedi, com'e' trieste il martedi con te!

>>Buonenotte!

>>Aniko - the "young, troubled, searching for roots *not* hungarian".

>>PS - You still remind me of Dr. Szucs!!!  More and more as the days

>>progress (sorry Janka)!

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>

Not quite yet I see Sam....I am still waiting for my Christmas Greetings,
et al to make it. I just got a note yesterday from the server that they
will re-post after the 50 message limit???
Regards,
peter

Dear Lionel Smith:
Just a simple question please. If Win 95 versions of everything you sell
costs 25-50% more in the USA and some are price fixed (i.e. Win 95 costs
89.89$ Offcie Pro costs $350-$400) then how can you sell Hungarian
versions (which are usually much more) (or English versions for that
matter) at such prices.

You say that they are not bootleg CD's??? Did they fall off the truck
perhaps?
Sorry for my skepticism, but....... You may respond to the list or direct.
Thank you !
Peter Soltesz

On Sun, 22 Dec 1996, Lionel Smith wrote:

> Greetings,
> I have some items for sale.
> I do not mean to intrude on anyone's newsgroup discussion
> but this is some very usefull stuff...
>
>         NT Workstation 3.51 in Hungarian, $60.
>         Windows 95 in Hungarian, $75.
>         Office 95 Professional in Hungarian, $200.
>         Project 95 in Hungarian, $100.
>         DOS, Windows 3.1 and WFW 3.11 in Hungarian, $50.
>
> All items are also available in English and several other languages at the
> same price.
> Other items in English include:
>         Visual Basic Ent. Ed., $250.
>         Visual C++ 4.2, $150.
>         Visual J++ 1.0, $50.
>
> These are not "bootleg" CDs.  They are all original products from
> Microsoft.
> Please email me if interested.  All prices are open to negotiation.
>
> Thank you,
>
> 
>

I agree with Mr. Hidas' comment that if one had good grades one could get
into most Hungarian universities, refardless of social status.
Peter Soltesz

I have just recently heard on the Toronto Hungarian radio a warning to
visitors to Budapest about a gang posing as police officers, confiscating
people's passports and creditcards as well as their money.

Agnes

In article >,
 says...
>
>
>   The amnesty was announced in 1963 and the regime lived up to
>   it.
>
Sorry, in 1963 there was a general amnesty for those who left the country
illegally, but did not actively participated in the revolution.  I went
home first in 1964 with my 2 children, but my husband couldn't go till
the early 70's, when he got a special amnesty issued to him personally.
He was in the army in 56, so he participated in the "armed rebellion".

Agnes

>> I do not care if the love of my country offends the likes of you.
What is
>> this garbage about genocide?  Love of your own people does not require
hatred
>> of others.
>
>   Are you then only preaching hatred out of habit, or are you
>   just having fun doing it?
>
>   You are only proving to most people that you haven't learned
>   one decent thing in your 40 years in the USA.
>
>                                                 Amos

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>Not so fast, Sam!  What makes you think I'm not upholding my end of the
>debate?

Because you wimped out with a hit-and-run assertion.

>I just claimed that your thesis is "anti-democratic".  You're not
>defending yourself.  Are you saying I'm right?  If you are, then you're
>conceding that your ideas are anti-democratic.  If you observe politics
>closely, you'll see that anti-democratic ideas are in vogue, big time.
Are
>you just being stylish or is your heart in it as well?

Negatory, my good north o' the border buddy. The fundamental difference
between you and I is our stance on the nature and necessity of certainty
of belief. I am skeptical, as you well know, when it comes to any grand
scheme that will uplift the human race, erase all its collective ills and
make all of us better for it in the long run. I am impartial in this
regard, making it clear that I hold the right wing version of utopia as
suspect as the left wing. And it's for the same reason -- they exalt
theory at the expense of experience. And experience clearly demonstrates
that tangible gains in the human condition are hard-won, unevenly
distributed and caused by complex interactions of human psychology,
historical events, sociological context and, to some extent, sheer luck.

You, on the other hand, seem to have put your money on a particular
ideology and aren't willing to slow down long enough to consider the
practical implications of that ideology. Your recent paean to the Serb
"student democrats" is a case in point. You assumed they were young,
intellectual and committed to same vision of democratic pluralism you have
developed since your own youth. You made your claim of solidarity based on
aesthetic considerations -- the pictures of these kids on your nightly
news obviously reminded you of your own radical heyday in the late 60s.
But the ugly truth is that they're young and radical in a way that makes
both of our skins crawl. The complex nature of humanity is bound to
frustrate anyone's idealism and a frustrated idealist is a man who, if he
has the power, is eventually bound to take the dangerous shortcut of
implementing his schema for a brave, new world at gunpoint. Human beings
are not perfectable. Any sociopolitical system which starts with the
premise that they are and can attain that perfection if the environment
they live in is perfected is a system which is already taking a huge step
down the road to oppression and murder.

I'm not in favor of political quietism. But improving the human lot in
life requires patience, wisdom and cautious experimentation to determine
whether those attempts at improvement are helping or hurting. It also
requires the boldness to admit it when social experimentation isn't
working. And it means backing off and letting people do what they can to
help themselves and respecting their freedom to live their own lives
unmolested by someone else's good intentions.

This is a discussion which needs to take place at large in Hungarian
society and it goes back to a theme I've sound here before. Given the
great degree of pessimism and frustration with the political and economic
situation in Hungary right now, the country is fertile territory for
charlatans pushing all kinds of questionable nostroms.

>
>Or, maybe I should lighten up on you.

There's no need for that. You have enough trouble on your hands upholding
your own end of the debate.
Sam Stowe

>
>Joe Szalai



"I need not tell you that true patriotism sometimes requires
of me to act contrary at one period to that which it does at
another, and the motive that impels them -- the desire to do
right -- is precisely the same..."
-- Gen Robert E.Lee in an October, 1865, personal letter to
Gen. P.G.T. Beauregard.

In article >,  (Peter k
Chong) wrote:
>
>
> Sumerian:       ab(-ba) 128,13a (father)
> Finnish:        appi (father-in-law)
> Hungarian:      apa (father)
> Turkish:        aba (")
> Mongol:         aav (")

And don't forget the Etruscan apa! Same spelling and meaning as in Hungarian.

Gabor

Charlie, Szodd a selymet, elvtars, was not the koztarsasagi indulo!

Incidentally, even the song of the republic was not very popular in the
early fifties at official gatherings.  We sand the Internationale mroe
often.

Agnes

>I have a large extended family and not one was imprisoned or tortured by
the
>communists.

You and your family is lucky, Joe.  You have never heard  of anybody who
was "kitelepitve"? (Deported during the night to somewhere in
sticksville).  It was a very-very dark era in the early fifties.  I
finished high school in 1951 and we were not allowed to "ballagni" (it
was the tradition for the graduating class to go around the entire school
building, in and out of each classroom, singing gaudeamus igitur and a
traditional Hungarian song, "ballag mar a ven diak".  It was deemed
"polgari csokeveny" (burgois tradition).

Also, I know quite a few friends who were imprisoned in 1957 for their
participation in the revolution - even those, who were only ideological
participants.

Agnes

:
At 04:51 PM 12/16/96 EST, Csaba Zoltani wrote:

>The New York Times reports that once again books are being banned in
>Hungary. The article doesn't elaborate on how the authorities reconcile
>this action with freedom of expression or the alleged commitment to
>ideals of a liberal democracy.

        I assume you and the New York Times (I didn't see the article, by
the way) mean the banning a new edition of Mein Kampf. It is hard for us to
imagine but there was no Hungarian translation of Mein Kampf and the only
place where it was available was the bookstore of the Central European
University (Soros founded university, where the common language is English).
Of course, it was in English translation.

        A fellow called Aron Monus decided to translate Hitler's book and
after selling about 500 copies the head of a Hungarian-Jewish organization
asked the authorities to ban the book. They obliged. Monus, by the way, is
noted for his extreme right-wing political ideas and I am sure that he
published the book as a test case for the existence--or lack of it--of
freedom of the press.

        It is hard for us to imagine that one cannot just walk into any
better bookstore and buy a copy of Hitler's infamous book. It is even harder
to imagine that the authorities decided to ban the book at the request of
the head of the Hungarian Jewish organization. All of you who know my views
must know that I am appalled by this whole affair.

        Eva Balogh

I hope that you know your GOD loves you, no matter what GOD you believe in.
Thank your GOD for life and ask your GOD to let you live as your GOD would want
you to. When we look closely at GOD we begin to realize that we all believe in
the
same GOD, we may see GOD in different ways, but GOD will always be GOD. There
can only be one GOD, and that one GOD loves us all, and wants nothing but the
best for us. If your in doubt, just remember GOD works in mysterious ways,
there is
a reason for everything...

God thank you.

Someone

Hi to all,

Does someone in the New York area know where one can buy ground poppy seeds
in New York City to make beigli? Since Paprikas Weiss closed, I have no
outlet for this. I tried grinding it myself last year but it was too pasty,
so I only made the walnut kind.

Thanks for you help.

Anna

"Eva S. Balogh" > wrote:
>At 08:10 AM 12/4/96 GMT, Kendra wrote:
>>In article >,  (Peter k
>>Chong) wrote:
>>
>>
>>* Sumerian:       ab(-ba) 128,13a (father)
>>* Finnish:        appi (father-in-law)
>>* Hungarian:      apa (father)
>>* Turkish:        aba (")
>>* Mongol:         aav (")
>>
>>I was skimming through the words-comparison end of your post (not knowing
>>any of the languages in question), when the above set caught my eye.  Is
>>this any relation to Semitic "aba"-type words for father (Aramaic "abba,"
>>Hebrew? "aba"), or just coincidence?  (Forgive me if I've got my words
>>wrong; this is fuzzy territory at best for me).
>
>        Not being a linguist I consulted the Hungarian Etymological
>Dictionary and it seems that the Hungarian "apa" is of Finno-Ugric origin
>but given the nature of the word it stems from "childspeak," so to speak.
>Therefore, I gather that its resemblance to the Hebrew is coincidental.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Te'nyleg? "Hungarian Etymological Dictionary"? Who wrote it? I think
"apa" seems to be a "childspeak" word as you put it. Sumerian ab-ba,
Ural-Altaic: apa, aba, apu, aav, / Indo-European: pa-ter, father, Vater,
pe`re. / Hebrew: aba / Chinese: "ba-ba" (father) This "-pa-" or "-ba-" or
"-fa-" sound seems to be fairly universal for a "fatherly" connotation -
it can't be of Finno-Ugric origin.

Cf. "mother" or "mater" or "mama" or "mommy" This "-ma-" or "-mom-" or
"-meh-" sound seems to correspond to the female parent or a related
idea...

English: mother, mom, mum / French: me`re, maman / German: Mutter, Muti /
Latin: mater / Sumerian: ana / Magyar: anya (vo: mell - breast - a
"motherly" body part) / Chinese: "ma-ma" (mother). What about "milk" -  a
"motherly" connatation? This "-mi-" sound sounds similar to the word
"mother" or "mom"... No wonder those Norstratic-Greenburg boosters love
this stuff...


Cheers,

Peter Chong

Hello Everyone!

I am third year student at Mount Holyoke College in Massachusetts, and I
was wondering if anyone could recommend a good place to look for summer
interships in hungary.  I understand the practice is not common there,
but I would like to use my studies (in international relations) and my
language skills (fluent in Hungarian and Romanian with advanced knowledge
of Spanish), to possibly earn money and work in a country I love.
I would appreciate any help anyone could give me.

I seldom check this newsgroup, so if you could email me any info that
would be the greatest.  My email is 

Thank you anyone in advance!!!
Paula Cserei--
******************************************************************************


    Is this short enough for you? :)





******************************************************************************

If anyone fancies to enter in this competition, there
must be a few philosophers or literature-scholars
here.




>
> #####################################
>
> CALL FOR ENTRIES.  Philosophy and Literature, a journal of the
> Johns Hopkins University Press,  announces the third Bad Writing
> Contest.  Please cross-post the following announcement on related
> lists for humanities, culture theory, philosophy, social sciences,
> criticism, editing, etc.
>
> *******************
>
> The Philosophy and Literature Bad Writing Contest
>
> The challenge of the Bad Writing Contest is to come up with the
> ugliest, most stylistically awful single sentence from a published
> scholarly book or article.  Ordinary journalism, fiction, etc. not
> allowed, nor is translation from other languages into English.
> Entries must be non-ironic, from actual serious academic journals or
> books--parodies cannot be admitted in a field where unintentional
> self-parody is so rampant.  Winning entries will be checked by our
> researchers before prizes are awarded.
>
> Judging will be by editorial staff of Philosophy and Literature.  Finder
> of the winning sentence will have first choice from among the
> following titles, second prize will be a choice of the remaining books,
> and so on.  The seven prize books are: Rewriting the Soul, by Ian
> Hacking (Princeton), The Magician's Doubts: Nabokov and the Risks
> of Fiction, by Michael Wood (Princeton), Dilemmas of Enlightenment,
> by Oscar Kenshur (California); Killing Time, by Paul Feyerabend
> (Chicago); Anti-Mimesis from Plato to Hitchcock, by Tom Cohen
> (Cambridge); Compulsive Beauty, by Hal Foster (MIT); Georges
> Bataille, by Michael Richardson (Routledge).  If necessary, there will
> be a eight prize (a copy of the journal Social Text) and ninth prize
> (two copies of Social Text).
>
> We've fine prizes for this third contest, so join the fun! Please use the
> subject heading "Bad writing entry" and copy the posting directly to
> Denis Dutton, editor of Philosophy and Literature, so we can keep
> track of the entries:
>
> .
>
> Contest deadline: 31 January 1997. Multiple entries welcome.
>
> **********************
>
> Anyone may join Philosophy and Literature's internet discussion
> group, PHIL-LIT,  by sending the message
>
> SUBSCRIBE PHIL-LIT Your Name
>
>
> to: 
>
> **********************
>
>
>

Saw the movie, great!!!  The song sung by Sebestye'n Ma'rta at the
beginning of the movie was great! When I purchased tix to the movie with
my sister, I had no idea the main character of the movie was Hungarian.
As the movie was starting and the song, Szerelem, Szerelem I believe is
the name, was playing, I thought it sounded familiar, but I dismissed it
as just my imagination.  Well I was extremely surprised when Fienes
himself says that he is hungarian in the middle of the movie sometime.
Also I would believe his name would be spelled Alma'si, since the letter
y does not really figure in Hungarian spelling unless it is in the letter
gy, ny, or ty...but I may be wrong on this.

Paula--
******************************************************************************


    Is this short enough for you? :)





******************************************************************************

I need some information on Hungary ( life standarts, GDS
information and other ifo connected with economics) if you know where I
can find it on WWW pages please let me know. I nee to writte paper on the
todays life style, sytuation and standarts of living in Hungary. So if you
have or know where to find those informiton please replay to this message.

                Pawel Leks
           ul. Armii Ludowej 69
              42-500 Bedzin
                 POLAND
    E-mail: 

Radio Canada International lives.  Most Canadians were "led to believe"
that, as a result of massive ($414 million, 3,200 jobs so far!) cuts to the
CBC, Radio Canada International would cease broadcasting last March.  It
didn't, and this week, after we were told that it would stop next March, we
were told that RCI was a branch of the Department of Foreign Affairs.  Today
we were told that several government departments will redirect enough funds
to keep RCI going.  You never know what they'll tell you next.  Enjoy the
Hungarian language programme, if it's still on.

Joe Szalai

Istvan Lippai:

>It is a different story with Eva Balogh and Joe Szalai.  Eva Balogh was a
>third year student of communist history and philosophy.  You had to be
>communist garbage to choose to take more than the one class required in
>Marxist-Leninist doctrine at the Technical University of Budapest.  Joe Szalai
>is the product of a communist litter.  Curiously, they both ended up in
>Canada.  The United States did not accept communist garbage.

        One ought to keep one's facts straight, Mr. Lippai. Eva Balogh was
not a "third year student of communist history and philosophy." Nothing that
interesting. For everybody's information: I finished two years (four
semesters) as a double major in Hungarian language and literature and
Library Science. Not liking Library Science I applied for a special status:
tudoma'nyos egyszakossa'g. That meant that I could drop Library Science and
devote myself entirely to Hungarian language and literature. My interest lay
in Old Hungarian Literature.  Two months later the revolution broke out.
        As for Canada. I didn't want to go to the United States. I chose Canada
.

        And finally and very seriously, if Mr. Lippai doesn't not stop this
character assassination he may receive a letter from my lawyer.

        Eva Balogh

In article >, 
says...
>
>
>Saw the movie, great!!!  The song sung by Sebestye'n Ma'rta at the
>beginning of the movie was great! When I purchased tix to the movie with
>my sister, I had no idea the main character of the movie was Hungarian.

>As the movie was starting and the song, Szerelem, Szerelem I believe is
>the name, was playing, I thought it sounded familiar, but I dismissed it
>as just my imagination.  Well I was extremely surprised when Fienes
>himself says that he is hungarian in the middle of the movie sometime.
>Also I would believe his name would be spelled Alma'si, since the letter
>y does not really figure in Hungarian spelling unless it is in the
letter
>gy, ny, or ty...but I may be wrong on this.
>
>Paula--
>************************************************************************
******
>
>Yes, Paula, you are wrong.  All the old aristocratic family names end
with a "y".  It is the hungarized names that end with an "i".

I just saw the film yesterday and found it very good.  However, I didn't
find any similarity of the song that was supposed to be Hungarian with
Hungarian folksongs (and my girlfriend was at the same opinion).  It
didn't even resemble Kodaly songs, and I could not make out any Hungarian
wording.  It sounded quite Arabic to me.


>    Is this short enough for you? :)
>
>
>
>
>
>************************************************************************
******

>Te'nyleg? "Hungarian Etymological Dictionary"? Who wrote it?


A Magyar nyelv torteneti es etimologiai szotara
MTA Nyelvtudomanyi Intezet
ELTE 1. sz. Magyar Nyelvtani Tanszek
Akademiai Kiado 1967-1970 I II III kotet

Otherwise after Gyula Laszlo I believe in the turk relationship of the
Hungarian language.

Sincerely

laszlo kiss

Our favorite list, it seems, no longer could take our latest
exchanges. It sighed and gave up the ghost! Or at least it retired to
recuperate. In any case, while it is ailing I want to correct a posting of
mine which I wrote in a high state of agitation and therefore I was more
emotional than usual. I said something to the effect that Mr. Lippai was a
piece of garbage. He may be still that but the real problem with Mr. Lippai
is that he is woefully ignorant. And ignorance combined with blind
nationalism is a dangerous combination.

        Mr. Lippai, as unfortnately many other people much more savvy than
he is and much more knowledgeable, seems to think that any criticism of his
"beloved" country is tantamount to high treason. Therefore, if a Hungarian
or American historian says, for example, that Hungarian foreign policy
between the two world wars was less than successful because the whole
strategy for faulty then surely that person must be either an anti-Hungarian
or at least "his heart is not at the right place."

        Now surely, Mr. Lippai is an extreme case because he really has no
idea about Hungarian reality past or present. Thus, he can say such
ridiculous things as "Imre Nagy never said comrades." I just wish I had as
many dollar bills as Imre Nagy must have said "comrade" or comrades," in his
life, including the time when he arrived, after much coaxing, in the
Parliament building on October 23, 1956 when he began his address to the
people waiting for me with "Dear Comrades!" To which in unison we answered:
"No more comrades." Surely, Mr. Lippai wasn't there or he was there he has
forgotten it. Or, he simply wants to forget it because, after all, Imre Nagy
is his idol. I was also somewhat baffled by a reference of his, apparently
in connection with our exchange on Imre Nagy, about people forced into the
communist party. I hope that Mr. Lippai doesn't think that Imre Nagy was
forced into the communist party. In any case, one could continue the list ad
infinitum and the picture which emerges is total ignorance. I often wonder
how on earth did Hungary manage to produce so many ignorami with a college
degree but it did. As we know from the American experience it isn't very
difficult!

        But Mr. Lippai has a burning love for his fatherland, about which he
knows practically nothing. He talks about those garbage communists who
helped the Soviets--my, my, all 800,000 of them at any given time--and about
his great achievements in the American army (just like Mr. Dole's (?)). But
his great achievement seems to be that he happened to be in the American
army at the time of the Cuban Crisis. And so what? His unit at some plush
American army base was put on high alert for a few days. And then,
Khrushchev got cold feet. The alert was off! I would have been much more
impressed if Mr. Lippai volunteered to serve in Vietnam but surely he didn't
because otherwise we would have heard about it.

        I said that I was ashamed having Mr. Lippai as my fellow
"revolutionary," and yes, I am still ashamed of that. What kind of terrible
image does he conjure up in the eyes of non-Hungarians? Almost the
caricature of the kind the Kadar regime wanted us to believe when talking
about the "counterrevolution." I am grateful for an intelligent readership
of this list which surely is not going take Mr. Lippai as typical. Either as
a typical Hungarian or a typical student revolutionary of 1956.

        Otherwise, I will take advantage of the silence from "Hungary" and
work on the rest of the FIDESZ paper.

        With best to everybody, Eva Balogh

In article >,  says...

:
:But first I would like to make a point about the
:above comments... The first word list had alrady
:indicated "s^olpan" as "Kyrgyz Turk", what is the
:point in reiterating it as "qIrgIz vs. old turkish"?

 due to some problems with the newsreader, I reposted my article with the
added comment that the change s^ < c^ is a qIrgIz peculiarity, while most
turkic languages including old turkish have c^olpan, which is a better
cognate with the other languages.

To reply to this message use the email address at the end

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>
> >in your signoff you quote some data on child poverty in the US
> >from a census buro .  Could you give me precise reference,
>
> I can't unfortunately.  The Census Bureau is a government office that issues
> information periodically on demographics of the US.  I believe they have a
> web site -- the complete document might be there.
>

Just testing to see if the all-powerful AOL server has once again gone on
a three-day drunk.
Sam Stowe
"I need not tell you that true patriotism sometimes requires
of me to act contrary at one period to that which it does at
another, and the motive that impels them -- the desire to do
right -- is precisely the same..."
-- Gen Robert E.Lee in an October, 1865, personal letter to
Gen. P.G.T. Beauregard.

Az ENSZ kozgazdaszainak kedden, Genfben kiadott jelentese szerint
az Europai Unionak a kovetkezo evszazad elejen torteno
kibovitesere sem esely nincs, se nem kivanatos.

Albert Albu

 on Dec 10 18:23:40 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #872

>At 02:22 PM 12/10/96 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>
>>I did not expect this from you. You have apparently violated personal
>>e-mail messages privacy by publishing excerpts - most likely without his
>>permission -  that is a basic no no -- even if you are mad at him!
>>I suggest that you appologize for this unethical behavior.
>
>        Apology? You must be kidding.
>
>        Eva Balogh

No, Eva, two wrongs do not make right.  Admittedly, the quoted part of the
private note was offensive.  But it doesn't excuse your publishing it.  This
is all very '90s type behavior.

Ferenc

 on Dec 10 12:47:14 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #872:

>At 11:10 PM 12/9/96 PST, Gabor Fencsik wrote:
>>The reburial took place in semi-secret, with only the
>>immediate family present.  There was no pomp and circumstance, no official
>>speeches, and no monument; so the comparison to the Horthy funeral is not
>>entirely apt.  The burial site was repeatedly vandalized for a period of
>>months, after which the urn was moved to the top shelf, where it remains
>>inaccessible, with the name obscured and invisible from the ground.

A few years ago I saw the tablet covering Rakosi's urn in the Columbarium at
the Farkasreti cemetery.  It bore only his name and was the only one without
any flowers in the small vase attached to every plaque.  Later the plaque
disappeared, perhaps for the reason cited above.
>
>        Sure, the two burials were conducted differently, but I was thinking
>more in terms about "burial in Hungarian soil" aspect of the question.
>Surely, Horthy had the right to be buried in Hungary. It is another matter
>in which manner that burial should have taken place.
>
>        Eva Balogh

And what is that "manner"?  The burial was a private one, AFAIK.

Ferenc

In > Cluster User wrote:

> some comments about the turkish:
> sakIn (should be sakin - sa:kin), sahra, tekmil ciltlemek
> (from cilt - j^ild), kuvvet (from quwwa(t), however turkish
> kol - qol is relevant) are loanwords from arabic. nam,
> huysuzluk (from huy , xu:y) are loanwrods from persian.
> for ol- (to become, be) most turkic languages have bol-
> for o"ksu"rmek - o"g~u"rmek (to retch, vomit) would be more
> relevant. s^olpan is qIrgIz, but old turkish has c^olpan,
> for elma many dialects of turkish have alma.

Since this is still going around, I decided to try
making some corrections and offer some alternates,
replacements or what I thought to be better matches
myself...

But first I would like to make a point about the
above comments... The first word list had alrady
indicated "s^olpan" as "Kyrgyz Turk", what is the
point in reiterating it as "qIrgIz vs. old turkish"?

"Turkish" examples in the original list inluded
words from Anatolian Turkish, Old Turkish, Kirgiz
Turkish, Osmanli Turkish, Saka Turkish, Uygur Turkish,
Sakha Turkish, Teleut Turkish... Thus it was clear
that those examples represented the Turkish branch
(what came to be called Turkic branch) of Altaic
languages...

The original writer must have felt a certain need
to put the word "Turk" next to "Kyrgyz", in order
to keep it clear to the ones who may not know it,
that "Kirgiz" is a Turkish/Turkic language...

What exactly is your purpose to say "s^olpan is
qIrgIz, but old turkish has c^olpan"...? Are you
trying to drive the wedge (which seems to have been
intentionally created by the usage of the word
"Turkic" instead of "Turkish") deeper between Kirgiz
and other Turkish/Turkic languages...?

Anyway, since I don't know the other languages in
the list and wanted to keep this posting fron getting
too long, I limited my comments to similarities
between Sumerian and Turkish only... I would welcome
and appreciate any comments or corrections to mine...

>Sumerian:       bur 411,104 (to drill, to riddle with holes)
>Turkish:        burmak (to drill - verb)

    Comment:     The verb is "bur", no need for participle form
                 "burmak", without it the similarity is more clear

>Sumerian:       bar 74, 68/302 (family, village)
>Old Turkish:    balIq (city)

    Addition:    bag~rak (family, clan)

>Sumerian:       bur3 411,32 (livestock, four-legged animal, cow)
>Osmanli Turk:   buzagI (two year-old livestock)

    Comment:     buzag~I is the alternate [correct?] spelling
    Addition:    burgin (doe - female deer)
                 bug~ra, bug~u (camel)

>Sumerian:       bad 69,100 (to fall apart, to be fallen)
>Turkish:        patla (to burst)

    Addition:    bat (to sink, to collapse, to perish)

>Sumerian:       bad 152 8,4 (wall, stuffing)
>Kyrgyz Turk:    bit  (it closes away - pertaining to arrows?)

>Sumerian:       gab 167,55/57a (to grasp, to get, to catch)
>Turkish:        kap (pot - recepticle, something that catches)

    Addition:    kab (verb: to catch, to grab, to snatch)

>Sumerian:       ab(-ba) 128,13a (father)
>Turkish:        aba (father)

>Sumerian:       s^ub 68,9 (to flatten)
>Sakha Turk:     s bird x (page, leaf)

>Sumerian:       gab 167,56 (copy, picture, duplicate)
>Turkish:        k p (picture in dialect)

>Sumerian:       gib-i/=gig/446,3/4 (be sick, pain, illness)
>Turkish:        gebermek (to pass away)

    Addition:    kebe (to swell, [from which --> gebe-rmek])

>Sumerian:       gir11 152,19 (to stretch)
>Turkish:        germek (to tighten)

    Correction:  ger (means to stretch, rather than tighten)
    Addition:    kirti (wooden bridge)

>Sumerian:       sig 592, 10ff (tight, narrow)
>Turkish:        sIkI (tight)

    Addition:    sIg~ (to fit in a tight space, to shrink)
                 sIk  (to tighten, to press)

>Sumerian:       gig 456,43 (hatred, to hate)
>Old Turkish:    k k (")

>Sumerian:       s^ag5 356,5/7 (be healthy, good, goodness, nice)
>Turkish:        sag^ (healthy)

>Sumerian:       sig7 351,6 (to live, to sit)
>Turkish:        sakIn (inhabitant)

    Correction:  this is a borrow word, not a Turkish one
    Addition:    sIg~  (to take shelter in)

>Sumerian:       gis^ 296,10 (man, master, sir, gentleman)
>Old Turkish:    iy  (gentleman)

    Addition:    ki$i (person)

>Sumerian:       gal2 80,3 (to be)
>Turkish:        ol- (it is, it will be, it happens)

    Addition:    kal (to continue existance, to remain)

>Sumerian:       gur4 483,23 (to run, to flee)
>Turkish:        kuriye (fast movement?)

    Question:    can this be verified as a Turkish word?
    Addition:    kur ([+tul] to escape, to free onself from)
                 yu"ru" (to walk)

>Sumerian:       zag 332,43 (flatland, field)
>Turkish:        sahra- (steppe, land, plateau)

    Correction:  this is a borrow word, not a Turkish one
    Addition:    saya (pasture, field)

>Sumerian:       dug3 396,10/11 (good, healthy, optimal)
>Turkish:        tekmil (completion)

    Correction:  this is a borrow word, not a Turkish one
    Addition:    dog~ (to be born, to rise)
                 dog~+ru (straight, right, true, good)
                 dog~+ruk (zenith, highest point)
                 du"g~ (to close, to celebrate)
                 tu"k (whole, hair, feather)

>Sumerian:       dah 169,3/10 (one follows, by someone)
>Sakha Turk:     dogor (member, partner)

    Addition:    tak ([<-- dak?] append, follow)

>Sumerian:       kud 12,19 (city, hamlet)
>Old Turkish:    qadas^ (relative, relation, troop, brother)

>Sumerian:       kad4 (to bind)
>Turkish:        kat- (weave)

    Addition:    kat  (to add, to harden)

>Sumerian:       bad3 152^8,7 (deathly ill, sickly)
>Old Turkish:    bed- (it weakens)

>Sumerian:       pa 295,11 (summit, peak)
>Turkish:        bas, (head)

>Sumerian:       bu 371,25 (to blow)
>Turkish:        p fle- (")

    Addition:    bag~Ir (chest, lungs, to yell)
                 bog~anak (wind)

>Sumerian:       zub 60^x,4 (to flow, rain)
>Uigur Turk:     c^ip-c^ip (onomatopaeia of dripping water - "drip-drip")

    Addition:    suv (water)

>Sumerian:       ki 461,21 (who)
>Turkish:        ki (")

>Sumerian:       kur2 60,34 (circle)
>Turkish:        k resel (spherical)

    Correction:  this is a borrow word, not a Turkish one

>Sumerian:       kas^ 211a,2 (urine)
>Turkish:        huysuzluk (bile)
>Old Turkish:    qas^an- (be urinating)

    Correction:  "huysuzluk" is a borrow word, not a Turkish one
    Comment:     ka$an - current spelling in Turkish

>Sumerian:       kud 536,4 (to throw, to place, to allow)
>Turkish:        koy- (")

>Sumerian:       s^ita 233,15/442,2 (to bind)
>Turkish:        ciltlemek (to bind)

    Correction:  this is a borrow word, not a Turkish one
    Addition:    git (to bind, to join, to get entangled)

>Sumerian:       has^ 12,78 (be bending)
>Turkish:        kayma  (slant-eyed)

    Addition:    ka$ (eyebrow, arch)

>Sumerian:       hir 401,9 (picture)
>Turkish:        kertik (notch, gash, score)

>Sumerian:       has^ 12,70/73 (to cut, to split)
>Turkish:        kesmek (to cut)

>Sumerian:       uh 398,6/17 (to spew, to vomit)
>Turkish:         ks rmek (to cough)

    Addition:    o"g~+urmek (to make vomiting noise)
                 aksIr+mak (to sneeze)

>Sumerian:       sil(a) 12,117 (to split, to cut up)
>Teleut Turk:    s^IlI (it cuts)

>Sumerian:       sig 592,10/19 (small, little)
>Turkish:        - ak (diminutive suffix)

>Sumerian:       sag2 295,100a (to strike, to hit)
>Turkish:         arpmak (to strike)

>Sumerian:       hus 565,58 (to drive)
>Osmanli Turk:   qos^u (wagon, coach)

    Addition:    ko$ (the verb means: to hitch, to ride, to run)

>Sumerian:       s^ag 384,118/9 (to sigh, a sigh)
>Teleut Turk:    s zI- (")

    Addition:    sag~u (wail, lament)

>Sumerian:       s^ag 384,2 (word)
>Turkish:        s v (")

>Sumerian:       s^e 367,58d (to eat)
>Turkish:        yemek (to eat)

    Comment:     The verb is "ye", no need for participle form

>Sumerian:       s^ug 367,11/2 (big, be big, much)
>Turkish:         ok (lots)

    Addition:    gIg~ (avalanche)
                 gIg~Il (a big crowd)

>Sumerian:       s^eg8 551,4 (frost, ice, cold)
>Turkish:        sog^ut (cold)

    Addition:    gig~ (frost, dew)

>Sumerian:       us^ 4 536,26 (mind, intellect)
>Turkish:        us (intelligence)

>Sumerian:       as^ 2 339,8 (to long for, to want)
>Turkish:        istemek (to want, to desire)

>Sumerian:       gis^ 296,16 (hand)
>Turkish:        kuuvet (strength, power)

    Correction:  this is a borrow word, not a Turkish one
    Addition:    karI$ (span of a flat/open hand)

>Sumerian:       zal 231,16 (also: sal, s^al) (to see)
                 ?????

>Sumerian:       zal(ag) 393,5 (be lighted, star, to shine)
>Kyrgyz Turk:    s^olpan (Morning Star, Venus)

    Addition:    yal (flame, shine, light)
                 I$Il (shine, light)

>Sumerian:       zir 84,108 (suffering, hurt)
>Turkish:        sIzI (ache, pain)

>Sumerian:       izi 172,11/17/13 (fire, oven, ash, to flame up)
>Kyrgyz Turk:    issyk (warm)

    Addition:    IsI   (heat)
                 is    (soot)
                 issi  (suffocating heat, scorching hot)

>Sumerian:       izi 172.159 (sour)
>Turkish:        eks,i (")

    Addition:    yig~si (unplesant smell)

>Sumerian:       zig 84,45 (to raise oneself, to get oneself up)
>Turkish:         Ikmak (to go out, to move out, to graduate)

    Addition:    gIk (to climb)

>Sumerian:       ri 86,41,74 (to fly)
>Kyrgyz Turk:    erb ng (unsupportable, cannot stand up)

>Sumerian:       sir3 152,3(also: sur, s^ar, sing, song, compose music)
>Turkish:        s,arkI (song)

    Comment:     I don't believe this is a Turkish word
    Addition:    gIg~Ir / gag~Ir (to call, to sing)

>Sumerian:       er 50,7 (also: ir, ur) (man, manly)
>Turkish:        er (man, male)

>Sumerian:       bar 74,100 (to frighten oneself, to scare)
>Turkish:        perva (")

    Correction:  can this be verified as a Turkish word?

>Sumerian:       ur2 203,7 (underground, ground)
>Turkish:        alt (bottom)

    Addition:    ura (easily tilled soil)
                 yer (ground)

>Sumerian:       ma 342,98b/10 (also: ma-da) (land, earth, homeland)
>Uigur Turk:     budun (folk, people)

>Sumerian:       ma 233,2 (to go)
>Old Turkish:    man- (")

>Sumerian:       ma3 233,3a (I)
>Turkish:        ben (I)

>Sumerian:       eme 237,2 (also: ama) (mother)
>Turkish:        ana (mother) emcik (nipple) emmek (to suck)

    Addition:    eme (aunt)

>Sumerian:       gam 362,6 (it bends over)
>Turkish:        kemer (arch, vault)

>Sumerian:       na 97,4 (be named, call)
>Turkish:        nam (")

    Possible??:  an  (to call, to be called, to recall/remember)

>Finnish:        omen (apple)
>Turkish:        elma (")

    Comment:     alma (apple, older/alternate spelling)

>Sumerian:       du3 230,19 (known, experienced, knowledge)
>Turkish:        tanImak (to know)

    Comment:     dan (to find, to know [older spelling])
    Addition:    duy (to hear, to sense, to feel)
                 du"$ (to think, to dream)
> ------------------------------------------
MK

> Attached is some correspondence which actually occurred between a
> London hotel's staff and one of its guests.  The London hotel
> involved submitted this to the Sunday Times.  No name was mentioned.
>
>
>    WHAT TO DO WITH ALL THOSE "FREE" SOAPS WHEN TRAVELLING
>    ******************************************************
>
> Dear Maid,
> Please do not leave any more of those little bars of soap in my
> bathroom since I have brought my own bath-sized Dial.  Please remove
> the six unopened little bars from the shelf under the medicine chest
> and another three in the shower soap dish.  They are in my way.
> Thank you,
>                                          S. Berman
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Room 635,
> I am not your regular maid.  She will be back tomorrow, Thursday, from
> her day off.  I took the 3 hotel soaps out of the shower soap dish as
> you requested.  The 6 bars on your shelf I took out of your way and
> put on top of your Kleenex dispenser in case you should change your
> mind.  This leaves only the 3 bars I left today which my instructions
> from the management is to leave 3 soaps daily.
> I hope this is satisfactory.
>                                          Kathy, Relief Maid
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Maid -- I hope you are my regular maid.
> Apparently Kathy did not tell you about my note to her concerning the
> little bars of soap.  When I got back to my room this evening I found
> you had added 3 little Camays to the shelf under my medicine cabinet.
> I am going to be here in the hotel for two weeks and have brought my
> own bath-size Dial so I won't need those 6 little Camays which are on
> the shelf.  They are in my way when shaving, brushing teeth, etc.
> Please remove them.
>                                          S. Berman
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Mr. Berman,
> My day off was last Wed. so the relief maid left 3 hotel soaps which
> we are instructed by the management.  I took the 6 soaps which were in
> your way on the shelf and put them in the soap dish where your Dial
> was.  I put the Dial in the medicine cabinet for your convenience.
> I didn't remove the 3 complimentary soaps which are always placed
> inside the medicine cabinet for all new check-ins and which you did
> not object to when you checked in last Monday.  Please let me
> know if I can of further assistance.
>                                          Your regular maid,
>                                          Dotty
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Mr. Berman,
> The assistant manager, Mr. Kensedder, informed me this A.M. that you
> called him last evening and said you were unhappy with your maid
> service.  I have assigned a new girl to your room.  I hope you will
> accept my apologies for any past inconvenience.  If you have any
> future complaints please contact me so I can give it my personal
> attention. Call extension 1108 between 8AM and 5PM.  Thank you.
>                                          Elaine Carmen
>                                          Housekeeper
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Miss Carmen,
> It is impossible to contact you by phone since I leave the hotel for
> business at 745 AM and don't get back before 530 or 6PM.  That's the
> reason I called Mr. Kensedder last night.  You were already off duty.
> I only asked Mr. Kensedder if he could do anything about those little
> bars of soap.  The new maid you assigned me must have thought I was a
> new check-in today, since she left another 3 bars of hotel soap in my
> medicine cabinet along with her regular delivery of 3 bars on the
> bath-room shelf.  In just 5 days here I have accumulated 24 little
> bars of soap.  Why are you doing this to me?
>                                          S. Berman
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Mr. Berman,
> Your maid, Kathy, has been instructed to stop delivering soap to your
> room and remove the extra soaps.  If I can be of further assistance,
> please call extension 1108 between 8AM and 5PM.  Thank you,
>                                          Elaine Carmen,
>                                          Housekeeper
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>       Dear Mr. Kensedder,
> My bath-size Dial is missing.  Every bar of soap was taken from my
> room including my own bath-size Dial.  I came in late last night and
> had to call the bellhop to bring me 4 little Cashmere Bouquets.
>                                          S. Berman
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Mr. Berman,
> I have informed our housekeeper, Elaine Carmen, of your soap problem.
> I cannot understand why there was no soap in your room since our maids
> are instructed to leave 3 bars of soap each time they service a room.
> The situation will be rectified immediately.  Please accept my
> apologies for the inconvenience.
>                                  Martin L. Kensedder
>                                                Assistant Manager
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Mrs. Carmen,
> Who the hell left 54 little bars of Camay in my room?  I came in last
> night and found 54 little bars of soap.  I don't want 54 little bars
> of Camay.  I want my one damn bar of bath-size Dial.  Do you realize I
> have 54 bars of soap in here.  All I want is my bath size Dial.
> Please give me back my bath-size Dial.
>                                          S. Berman
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Mr. Berman,
> You complained of too much soap in your room so I had them removed.
> Then you complained to Mr. Kensedder that all your soap was missing so
> I personally returned them.  The 24 Camays which had been taken and
> the 3 Camays you are supposed to receive daily (sic).  I don't know
> anything about the 4 Cashmere Bouquets.  Obviously your maid, Kathy,
> did not know I had returned your soaps so she also brought 24 Camays
> plus the 3 daily Camays.  I don't know where you got the idea this
> hotel issues bath-size Dial.  I was able to locate some bath-size
> Ivory which I left in your room.
>                                          Elaine Carmen
>                                          Housekeeper
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Mrs. Carmen,
> Just a short note to bring you up-to-date on my latest soap inventory.
> As of today I possess:
>
> - On shelf under medicine cabinet - 18 Camay in 4 stacks of
>   4 and 1 stack of 2.
> - On Kleenex dispenser - 11 Camay in 2 stacks of 4 and 1
>   stack of 3.
> - On bedroom dresser - 1 stack of 3 Cashmere Bouquet, 1
>   stack of 4 hotel-size Ivory, and 8 Camay in 2 stacks of 4.
> - Inside medicine cabinet - 14 Camay in 3 stacks of 4 and 1
>   stack of 2.
> - In shower soap dish - 6 Camay, very moist.
> - On northeast corner of tub - 1 Cashmere Bouquet, slightly used.
> - On northwest corner of tub - 6 Camays in 2 stacks of 3.
>
> Please ask Kathy when she services my room to make sure the stacks are
> neatly piled and dusted.  Also, please advise her that stacks of more
> than 4 have a tendency to tip.  May I suggest that my bedroom window
> sill is not in use and will make an excellent spot for future soap
> deliveries. One more item, I have purchased another bar of bath-sized
> Dial which I am keeping in the hotel vault in order to avoid further
> misunderstandings.
>                                            S. Berman

The world has not come to an end yet !

--
Steen Hjortsoe

At 02:20 PM 11/30/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote (sorry for late reaction, just
back from Kolozsvar):

>And what, pray tell, did "your side" do in Prague?  Run for the atlas to see
>where it was located?  "My side" was in the streets of Budapest in '56, in
>Prague in '68, in Kent State University in '70, in Beijing in '89, and in
>Belgrade today.  Meanwhile, "your side" is watching football on TV.  As for
>sucking, lets just leave that to individual taste.  OK?

Joe, I wouldn't be that proud of those in Belgrade. Apparently their biggest
problem is that Milosevic was to peaceful in Bosnia.

Gabor D. Farkas

In article >,
 says...
>
>Just testing to see if the all-powerful AOL server has once again gone
on
>a three-day drunk.
>Sam Stowe
>Sam, it was not AOL.  I am with i-star, and when for 3 days I could not
communicate, I wrote to the support group.  They replied immediately,
saying, it is not them, it is the server of this list.  And just as
unexplicable as the problem appeared, it disappeared.  It porves that
everybody had problems that by the time it disappeared, I had all of a
sudden 222 unread messages instead of the usual few.

Agnes

In article >,  (aheringer)
writes:

> I am with i-star, and when for 3 days I could not
>communicate, I wrote to the support group.  They replied immediately,
>saying, it is not them, it is the server of this list.  And just as
>unexplicable as the problem appeared, it disappeared.  It porves that
>everybody had problems that by the time it disappeared, I had all of a
>sudden 222 unread messages instead of the usual few.
>
>Agnes
>
>

This is about the third posting to come through my server from the Hungary
list since Wednesday. If the list server is having problems -- and it is,
judging from the private messages I've received from other list members
asking what's going on -- it would be nice if someone in an official
capacity would issue an explanation.
Sam Stowe

"I need not tell you that true patriotism sometimes requires
of me to act contrary at one period to that which it does at
another, and the motive that impels them -- the desire to do
right -- is precisely the same..."
-- Gen Robert E.Lee in an October, 1865, personal letter to
Gen. P.G.T. Beauregard.

At 09:41 AM 12/6/96 -0500, Darren Purcell wrote:

>by the way, does anyone know if the demonstrations have moved northward to
>Ujvidek/Novi Sad or Szabadka/Subotica? Or is the Magyar minority in
>voivodina simply watchng at the moment, albeit with great patience?
On my recent trip to Hungary and Romania I did see scenes of demonstration
in Ujvidek/NoviSad. Duna TV and the Romanian TV showed scenes of students
demonstrating in the city. There was no word about the Hungarians. However,
I did read somewhere about a debate within the Hungarian parties there.
Apparently they did get a substantial share of the vote and could not decide
whether to join a coalition with Milosevic's party (and thus participate in
the government) or just say no and feel good about themselves (and be ready
for the change of regime that was to be expected).

Gabor D. Farkas

Having flown on MALEV (with Delta ticket) from and to New York very
recently, here is my experience:

It did land to and depart from Ferihegy 2, a new building with walkway
directly to the plane (luxury that apparently MALEV cannot afford in New
York, where they bused us to and from the plane). By the way, recent press
reports talked about major expansion of Ferihegy 2, to allow 5 million
passengers/year.

The airport was very smokey, I was sitting alone at the restaurant and a
stranger sat to my table with his cigarette. When I complained, he answered
in some slavic language, it did not seem to be a friendly answer. The
departure lounge was full of people that seemed to group in clans, most of
them counting huge piles of money. There was a mixture of Greeks, Albanians,
Bulgarians, Romanians and various Yugoslavs.

The good news is that the New York flight is now a non-smoking flight.

At the boarding in Budapest everybody wanted to get onto the plane at the
same time, there was pushing and shoving. There was no effort whatsoever
from the MALEV personnel to ameliorate this.

At the landing in New York there was clapping. However, I did experience
this on many flights within the US (and I did fly a lot).

The service on the flights was OK. On the flight from New York I complained
about the high temperature in the cabin (I think it was around 90F). The
flight attendant's answer was that people like to sleep in warm air and this
is a subjective thing. I would also complain about the passengers. The
bathrooms became almost unusably filthy in a very short time. The food was
not better or worse than any airline TV-dinner. The bread was fresh, the
beer was OK (Amstel). The seat belt on my seat did not function on the way
to Budapest, I complained and they fixed it by the time  I flew back (ten
days later). I advise all of you to avoid seats 8AB and EF, they are
bulkhead seats but a wall in front of you makes them very uncomfortable.

The minibus at Ferihegy is still there but it costs 1,000 Forints (inflation).

At our arrival to Budapest as we were waiting for our baggage we tried to
get a cart. You need a 20 or 50 Forint coin to get one and the only currency
exchange office in that area was closed. So all Americans were standing on
line, waiting to get some change for the cart. Then, ten-fifteen minutes
later a lady showed up and told us the computer broke down, so she could not
exchange any money. Pandemonium was to erupt and than she agreed to give all
of us $1 worth of coins (150 Forints) for the carts.

Gabor D. Farkas

I guess I get excited too easily, but I just found a wonderful
resource on the Web: the Hungarian Electronic Library at

      http://gopher.mek.iif.hu/

I am delighted. Oh, it's in Hungarian.

Bandi


           Andrew J. Ro'zsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
                          
                 Nincsen ro'zsa to"vis ne'lku"l!

 on Dec  9 12:27:05 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #871:

>        Eva is right. The Hungarian national anthem remained the national
>anthem even in the darkest days of the Rakosi regime. However, the regime
>tried to replace it. The communist leadership objected to the name of God
>being mentioned in the anthem. Sometime in 1949-50 they came up with an
>atrocious piece of music called "The Song of the Republic" which was
>supposed to replace the national anthem. It never did.
>
>        Although I bet that only very few people remember that "Song of the
>Republic" I still remember it quite well, mostly because of a line which
>went something like that: "S hult a po'r e's hult a gyereke." [English: And
>the peasant fell and fell his child.] However, the word "po'r" is an archaic
>version of the modern word "paraszt," and most of us, thirteen-year-olds,
>weren't familiar with it. However, we knew the word "por" very well, meaning
>"dust." It also made sense the "the dust fell." So, this is how we sang it:
>S hult a por e's hult a gyereke!
>
>        Eva Balogh

There was a whole parody of the song, where that line went:

   "Hullt a por, s hullt a vakolat"   (There was dust as the plaster fell)

Ferenc

 on Dec 10 18:48:17 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #872 to Istvan
Lippai:

>The examples, unfortunately, are not rare. Reality avoidance seems to be a
>constant theme of Hungarian politics since 1848. You, no doubt, worship
>the ground that Lajos Kossuth walked on. But look at what Ferenc Deak
>managed to accomplish without the bloodshed that attended Kossuth's war of
>independence. Hungary needs more patriots like Deak (and Batthyany, for
>that matter) and less of the bluster and extremism that Kossuth made so
>popular as a style of political discourse.

The above is an interesting case of somebody discussing a topic he knows
precious little about, and, again, trying to mask his ignorance by attacking
his opponent, not the issue.  He obviously has no clue as to how the 1948 War
of Independence influenced the relations between Austria and Hungary, finally
resulting in the Compromise of 1867, credited in large part to Deak.  1867
would probably not happened without 1848, so the "without bloodshed" part is
not strictly true.

As for Hungarians "worshipping the ground that Lajos Kossuth walked on", it
is not really different from Americans doing the same with regard to George
Washington.   Only the outcomes of the two cases of " bluster and extremism"
were different.  And where does Batthyany come in?  For those who don't know,
he was the prime minister of the government under Kossuth and was shot by the
Austrians in 1849.

Ferenc

 on Dec  9 08:19:37 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #871

>... Have you seen the people in the
>crowd of "student democrats" throwing up the three-fingered Serbian
>nationalist salute?

Now that you mention it, yes.  What does it mean (if you know)?

 We had a picture of one "student democrat" who
>appeared to be in his forties doing just that on the front page of our
>local paper a few days ago. Have you heard an interview with Vuk
>Draskovic, one of the "student democrats" leaders? Last time that guy got
>much airplay in the western media, he was pushing a decidedly monarchist,
>quasi-fascist line.

No, I haven't heard the interview.  Care to quote from it?  And please
explain why is being a monarchist the same as quasi-fascist?  This language
is frighteningly familiar.  Used a lot by - how to put it delicately to you -
anti-anticommunists.

>Nevertheless, I assume
>he's the kind of role model you'd prefer to see reshaping Hungary
>according to your inner lights.
>Sam Stowe

Can you try to think of something that could vaguely be called a rational
argument instead of ladling out ridiculous statements like that?

Ferenc

I would exchange e-texts in hungarian, english and german languages.
(Subj: literature, philosophy)

     >

Dear Hungary list,

In HUNGARY#872 on Tue Dec 10 there were several letters about
Armin Vambery by Johanne L. Tournier, Joe Szalai and Eva Balogh.

May I add that Vambery was an ardent supporter of the theory that the
Hungarian language and the Hungarians themselves belong to the family
of Turkish people and languages instead of the Finno-Ugrians.

His book "A magyarsag keletkezese es gyarapodasa" -- a not very
precise translation of the title: "The origin and growth of the
Hungarians"  -- originally published in 1895 was published in a
reprint edition in 1989 by the publishing house "Holnap" in Budapest,
in Hungarian language. I found the book a very interesting reading.

regards

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-395-9151
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-395-9242
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
   !! Phone and FAX number changed on 7 December '96 !!
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
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