On 5 Feb 1996, T. Kocsis wrote:
 > ### osszefoglalas ###
 > 1. a listak utban vannak itt.
 Ezzel egyetertek.
 > 2. generaljunk nekik *egy* csoportot es menjenek oda.
 Elvileg szerintem is ez a megoldas, gyakorlatilag nem biztos hogy megy.
 > 3. ott aztan azt csinalnak es szavaznak meg, amit akarnak. Az mar nem
 > tartozik rank, mert az egy masik kozosseg lesz.
 Ezzel reszben egyetertek, de azert atfedo kozossegrol lenne szo, es 
remenyeim szerint az alcsoport letrehozasaval megoldhato igazi ketiranyu 
gateway-szisztema inkabb kozeliti a Useneteseket es emaileseket.

 > In article > Zoli
 > Fekete,  writes:
 > > A Hollosival valo elozetes konzultalasom alapjan ugy latszik, hogy
 > >technikailag nem jo megoldas a kulonbozo szerverek altal kezelt listakat
 > >egy csoportba tenni, ahogy legutobbi .listserv elkepzelesem tartotta
 > >volna
 > 
 > Pedig ez a jo lekepzeles.
 Talan igen, talan nem - alapveto szempont, hogy a lista-mesterek kepesek 
es hajlandoak legyenek a megosztast megoldani. A Jozsi altal felvetett 
gondokat en ugy latom ki lehet kuszobolni az o oldalan (miutan o 
programozza sajat szerveret, az szerintem eleg rugalmas a valogatast es 
terjesztess bonyolito tenyezok lekuzdesere akkor is, ha mas 
szerver-anyagokkal kevert forgalmat kell kezelni), de ebben az ove a vegso 
szo. Kerdes, amit remelem Gotthard hamarosan megvalaszol, hogy a masik 
lista-mester mit szol.

 > >(el akartam kerulni a tul sok fele osztodast, de ugy nez ki ez
 > >szukseges lesz a news/email ketiranyu forgalom esszeru megszervezesere).
 > 
 > Szerintem nincs szukseg ketiranyu forgalomra. Az uj csoportnak utankozlo
 > szerepe kellene, hogy legyen. A kulonbozo listakba valo iras modja: email
 > a listara, es *nem* a Usenetre valo cikk kuldesevel tortenik. Ne keresz-
 > tezzuk a kutyat a macskaval.
 Eloszor is, en a lehetosegek novelese, nem a megkotesuk mellett vagyok 
(a fenti nagyon ugy hangzik, mintha a sajat definicoddal akarnad megszabni
hogy mi legyen szemben a 3) pontoddal ;-(). Ha mar ugy nez ki, mint 
Usenet, akkor miert ne mukodhessen ugy, mint Usenet? Masodszor, amint az 
eddigi gyakorlat is megmutatta, meg ha az is a szabaly hogy emailezni 
kellene, sok felhasznalo a news szokasos post modjaval probalkozik; ami 
ertheto is, miutan nincs kulonosebb jele hogy az email-szarmazvany 
cikkeket elterien kellene jelezni (meg ha lenne is hasznalati utasitas, 
amikent a HIX-listakon von is rovidke iranymutatas, azt sokan ugysem 
olvassak). Szivesen atruhazom Rad az onkentesi posztot, hogy mindenkit 
figyelmeztessel erre ;-), de nem hiszem hogy ez megoldas.

 > > Ugyhogy a modositott tervem az, hogy legyen minden ujsag-egyuttesnek
 > >kulon alcsoportja, 
 > 
 > Ezt a vegsokig ellenezni fogom. Azon kevesek koze tartozok, akik itt a
 > Useneten olvassak a kulonbozo magyar listakat, ezert a velemenyem (es
 > tapasztalataim) ebben autentikusak: NEM VAGYOK HAJLANDO MEGSZI-
 > VATNI MAGAM, hogy eztan 10 csoportba kelljen kulon-kulon bemenni,
 > kimenni. Nem gimnasztikazni akarok, hanem olvasni, azonnal, bonyodal-
 > mak nelkul.
 Eppen ezert mondtam ujsag-*egyuttest*, azaz szerver szerinti
csoportositast; jelenleg ez .hix es .umd lenne, ami 33%-kal (ketto osszes
helyett harom - vagy 50%, ha a masik oldalrol szazalekolsz :-)) tobb csak
mint a .listserv valtozat. A kerdes az, hogy melyik megoldassal mennyi
bonyodalom lenne - es ezt olyan technikai kerdesnek latom, amihez tudnunk
kell a konkret megvalositas reszleteit valamelyest. (Pl. ha a
hun.lists.hix mintajara a szetvagott cikkek jonnek a HIX-rol, akkor
lehetseges a 'References:' beallitasa, vagyis olvashatod a fonalakat
automatikusan elrendezve - ez rogton kiiktat egy csomo bonyodalmat, ami a
hagyomanyos emailes-digest eseten kezi keresgelest igenyel. Kerdes, hogy
ez a rendszer fenntarthato-e ha a mas szervertol szarmazo uzenetekkel
keveredik az anyag.)

 > Raadasul ez logikailag is hulyeseg: mi van, ha holnaputan letrejon egy
 > uj lista ?? akkor megint nekiallunk megszavazni annak is egy uj cso-
 > portot ??
 > Es mi van, ha az uj  lista fogja magat, aztan harom honap mulva meg-
 > szunik , hulyet csinalva belolunk es a belefeccelt munkankbol (csoport-
 > generalasi javaslat, vita, szavazas) ?
 Ez jogos szempont, de szerintem nem tul sulyos problema - a szerverek 
azert nem szaporodnak annyira gombamod, es a mar meglevok eleg stabilnak 
tunnek. A fejlodes, ha kovetni akarjuk, gyakran igenyel tobbletmunkat 
az atallashoz. Es a tovabbiak mar nem igazan a mi gondunk, ertve ez alatt 
az s.c.m kozonseget. Aki uj listat/csoportot akar, az dolgozzon rajta, 
szervezze meg a szavazast - akit erdekel resztvesz, akit nem az nem. Most 
egy fust alatt elintezhetjuk mindket jelenleg keresztpostazo szerver 
ugyet, ebbol a szempontbol nagyjabol egyre megy, hogy egy vagy ket sor 
kerul a szavazolapra.

 > 
 > >celszeruen a megfelelo domain nevevel jelezve: .hix,
 > >.umd es ha a Nemzet kezeloi akarjak akkor .siliconvalley is (es
 > >hasonloan, ha tovabbi szerverek lepnenek uzembe, azoknak is).
 > 
 > Hehehehe... ha a kezelo akarja..... annak itt csak egy szavazata van. Egy
 > csoport generalasahoz ennyi szavazat nem szok eleg lenni. Lehet, hogy
 > a listajukon ok az urak, de itt kinnt a Useneten ok is csak egyszeru
 > maganyemberek, 1 -azaz egy-  szavazattal. 

 Ezt en is tudom (gondolj csak bele ;-)), de ertelemszeruen arra ertettem 
amit irtam, hogy a lista mukodtetese a kezelo magany-ugye: alcsoportot 
letrehozni csak akkor van ertelme, ha oda postazzak a lista-anyagot, 
tehat az o kozremukodesuk kvazi-szukseges feltetel (bar elvileg 
letrehozhatunk kihasznalatlan ures csoportot is, ha olyanra tamad 
kedvunk szavazni). Masreszt ha igenyt tartanak ilyen csoportra es 
hajlandok megcsinalni a lista-oldalon szukseges munkat, akkor az 
kvazi-elegseges, felteve hogy az s.c.m kozonseg inkabb elkulonitve latna 
szivesen az email anyagokat (amit en valoszinunek es logikusnak latok, de 
persze ezt sem fogjuk tudni amig le nem szavazunk) akkor illo hogy rajuk 
is ugyanugy szavazzanak mint a tobbi szerverre.

 > > A Jozsi velemenye szerint ebben a felallasban nem lenne gond a digestalt
 > >forma helyett egyedi cikkere bontva megjeleniteni a Useneten a HIX
 > >irasokat, ami nagy elorelepest jelentene szerintem a news hasznalok
 > >szamara.
 > 
 > Hibas logika. En FORUM-ot akarok olvasni, nem cikkeket, nem ujsagkiva-
 > gasokat.
 En a news hasznalokat ertettem, nem a Te kulon szemelyedet (akinek ippeg
az email formatum tetszik), ugyhogy a hiba a Te keszulekedben van ;-). Ha
a szetvagos terv megvalosul, akkor egyszeruen visszakerulsz oda ahol az
s.c.m-be valo keresztpostazas elott voltal: elofizethetsz emailen, vagy
olvashatod az archivot, ha ragaszkodsz az egybezsuppolt valtozathoz.
Emellett lenne meg az a lehetoseg, hogy akinek inkabb igazi
news-formatomban kellene az ugy is elerhesse - nem latom, hogy feltetlenul
jogod lenne ezt megvonni toluk. Szemely szerint en latnam annak is
bizonyos elonyeit, hogy mind a news, mind az email oldalon egyseges kepet
nyujtsanak a listak. De szemely szerint ugy erzem, idonkent elkenyeztetven
a hun.lists.hix.* bongeszesevel, hogy ennel nagyobb elony az egyedi
cikkeken valo atlapozgatas lehetosege. 

 > Azonban a fo ellenervem a kovetkezo:
 > Csak kepzeld el mihez vezet, ha mondjuk ot-hat FORUMszamot feldara-
 > bolva cikkekre, egyenkent postazol. Orult kavar lesz az eredmeny; nem
 > lehet majd tudni, hogy ki-kinek valaszol, elvesz a logikai rend (idorend),
 > es nem keletkezik uj: nem fogod tudni thread-ek be rendezni a cikkeket,
 > ahhoz az egesz HIX-et at kellene alakitani (uj hivatkozasi rendszer cikk-
 > bekuldeskor)
 Kepzeld, ezt el tudom kepzelni ;-(, es ezert is nem javasoltuk hogy az
emailes terjesztest folvagdossuk. Az idorendet Jozsi igyekszik majd
megorizni - a kulonvagott cikkek egy menetben lesznek postazva. A szamok
tovabbra is napi bontasban szamozva jonnenek ki, epp ugy mint az eredeti
email formatum, csak eppen nem egy csomagban hanem darabokban. Hogy ki
kinek valaszol, annak amugyis illik kiderulni a valaszbol magabol, mivel
erre vonatkozoan az idorend ugysem ad igazi informaciot. A valodi
thread-rendezes eppen hogy csak a szetvagdalassal lesz megvalosithato (a
FORUM#1222, FORUM#1223 s.i.t. nem thread), az eddigi hivatkozas megmarad
de azon tul meg a Usenet-cikk egyedi azonositojat is hasznalhatod
('References:' es 'In-reply-to:'). 
 Szemely szerint en nem tartanam nagy vesztesegnek, ha kevesebb "Re:
TIPP#1234" tipusu hivatkozast latnek a cimek helyen, es helyettuk az
igazi, magara a cikkra utalo temakor jelenhetne meg... 

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
# Wallace Sayre said, "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter
# form of politics, because the stakes are so low."  He didn't know
# Usenet: welcome to the next level.           (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)

Elnezest de olyan hideg van itt, hogy megfagynak az ujjaim ha nem mozgatom 
oket.

Nem arrol van itt szo, hogy listaknak az S.C.M-be nyomatasa egy meg nem 
ertesen alapulo kivedhetetlennek latszo agresszio?

En mindig ugy kepzeltem, hogy a newsgroup az ahova az ember irhat egy-egy 
cikket, a lista meg amit megrendelhet, aztan jon, aztan valaszolhat e-mailben.
Listat benyomni egy newsgroupba indokolhatatlan eroszakos "joakaras".

Egy listat barki megrendelhet aki kivancsi ra.
A lista benyomasa NEM TESZI SENKINEK KONNYEBBE, DEMOKRATIKUSABBA, SZABADABBA, 
SZEBBE VAGY JOBBA az eletet.
A lista benyomasa egyszeru mass-posting, azaz bun, ami felett valami erzelmes 
elgargyulasban hajlamosak vagyunk eltekinteni.

Ugyanigy ertelmetlen ujsagcikkeket, konyveket, napi hireket, 
sportkozvetiteseket bemasolni ide. Ez nem erre valo.

Mindezt nem en talaltam ki, hanem ezer helyen olvashato, mint ajanlas a 
newsgroupok hasznalatara. Ezeket a szabalyokat meg csak nem is a kommunista 
cenzura talalta ki, hanem egyszeruen logikusak es praktikusak.

Miert kellene atszervezni az SCM-et? Csupan azert mert nehanyan ezt nem 
kepesek felfogni? 

(Na most kicsit jobban vagyok)

SzP.



--------------------------------------
Peter Szaszvari
http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm
--------------------------------------

In article > Tibor Odor, 
writes:
>Szoval roviden: Javaslatom a FAQ elvetele Fekete Zoltantol

Ezt hogy kepzeled el ? Odamesz hozza, es addig vered, amig at nem
adja ?
Szerintem Zoli ezt tarsadalmi munkaban csinalta, senki sem kerte fel
ra. A Useneten egyebkent nincs is mod ilyesmi elvetelere.

Amit tudsz tenni, es nagyon hasznos lenne, az az, hogy irsz egy masik
FAQ-ot, *magyarul*.  Ilyen nincs, csak angol valtozat. Van a Useneten
tobb csoport is,  amelynek nem csak egy FAQ-ja van. 

>es egy interaktiv cimgyujto WWW oldal felallitasa.

Ez is jo otlet.

Tamas

In article > Zoli
Fekete,  writes:
>On 5 Feb 1996, T. Kocsis wrote:

> > Ezt a vegsokig ellenezni fogom. Azon kevesek koze tartozok, akik itt a
> > Useneten olvassak a kulonbozo magyar listakat, ezert a velemenyem (es
> > tapasztalataim) ebben autentikusak: NEM VAGYOK HAJLANDO MEGSZI-
> > VATNI MAGAM, hogy eztan 10 csoportba kelljen kulon-kulon bemenni,
> > kimenni. Nem gimnasztikazni akarok, hanem olvasni, azonnal, bonyodal-
> > mak nelkul.

> Eppen ezert mondtam ujsag-*egyuttest*, azaz szerver szerinti
>csoportositast; jelenleg ez .hix es .umd lenne, ami 33%-kal (ketto osszes
>helyett harom - vagy 50%, ha a masik oldalrol szazalekolsz :-)) tobb csak
>mint a .listserv valtozat. 

Szamoljunk csak szepen az ujjacskainkon:

1. HIX
2. BLA (Battyanyi Alapitvany)
3. HLD (Hungarian Lobby Digest)
4. Siliconvalley ( Pelionnisz Andras listaja)
5. HAL (Hungarian American List)
6. NARANCS

Szoval hogy jott ki az a 33 (illetve a masik oldalrol 50) szazalek ???

Hitetlen Tamás

ulture.misc,soc.culture.native,soc.culture.nepal,soc.culture.netherlands,soc.cu
lture.new-zealand,soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.palestine
,soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.portuguese,soc.culture.puerto-rico,soc.culture.
romanian,soc.cultu

re.singapore,soc.culture.slovenia,soc.culture.somalia,soc.culture.soviet,soc.cu
lture.spain,soc.culture.sri-lanka,soc.culture.swiss,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.cult
ure.tamil
Followup-To: soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.italian,soc.cul
ture.japan,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.korean,soc.culture.laos,soc.culture.l
atin-america,soc.culture.lebanon,soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.malaysia,soc.cu
lture.mexican,soc.

culture.misc,soc.culture.native,soc.culture.nepal,soc.culture.netherlands,soc.c
ulture.new-zealand,soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.palestin
e,soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.portuguese,soc.culture.puerto-rico,soc.culture
.romanian,soc.cult

ure.singapore,soc.culture.slovenia,soc.culture.somalia,soc.culture.soviet,soc.c
ulture.spain,soc.culture.sri-lanka,soc.culture.swiss,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.cul
ture.tamil
References: > 
er-ppp-ea.neosoft.com> >
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access	(415) 705-6060  [Login: guest]
Distribution: 

Driving in Mexico -- Yucatan :

Been there December 1 - 14! 95:




I have just returned from Yucatan, drove 1,800 miles all over.
Don't ever drive at night, though. The road from Frontera to 
Campeche has been taken out by a hurricane and it is like
driving on a beach -- big potholes! You can go only as far
as Sabancuy, then you must backtrack to Escarcega -- of course
they will assure you in Villahermosa that the road is OK 
and already repaired -- it is not! From Champoton to Campeche
there is a "toll" road -- usually at a prohibitive cost
but since that road is ruined, too, they did not have the nerve 
to charge us.  The toll road from Cancun to Valladolid is OK 
but hardly anyone ever travels on it.  The locals have worked
out a system of illegal access to the toll road which, given
the fact thet there is virtually no traffic, is OK but watch
that the cops don't catch you. Watch out at the gas pumps. 
Often they are set to show twice the amount of gas than is
actually delivered! Know the mileage your car makes per gallon
or rather the kilometrage per liter -- then you can always 
check if you top off at every gas station.  When you confront them
with this attempted fraud (Pemex stations in Xpujil and Escarcega
in my experience) they admit it and reduce theior charges -- they
understand very well how you can check on this by knowing the
car's performance -- they're not stupid: they only hope you are.
I found it convenient in staying in the best hotels: Holiday Inn
in Chetumal, Mission Palenque in Palenque, Hyatt Regency in Villahermosa
Ramada Inn in Campeche, Hyatt in Merida, Ritz carlton in Cancun --
the prices were about 55 percent of what is listed in AAA Tour
Book for Mexico -- about $50 on the average.

In article > Peter Szaszvari,
 writes:
>Nem arrol van itt szo, hogy listaknak az S.C.M-be nyomatasa egy meg nem 
>ertesen alapulo kivedhetetlennek latszo agresszio?

Az SCM beszemetelese kivedhetetlen. Csak a cenzura segithetne. Annak is
az automatizalt formaja, csak listak es reklamok ellen. En meg a cenzura-
nak meg ilyen enyhe formajat is elutasitom, ezert lennek inkabb benne
abban, hogy csinaljunk egy csoportot a listaknak, ahova elmehetnek.

Hangsulyozom: ez az egy csoport is hatalmas szivesseg reszunkrol a lis-
tatulajdonosoknak. Egyedul egy ilyen szabalyozott hierarchiaban, mint a
soc.culture, sajat csoportjuk megalakitasara a segitsegunk nelkul zerus
eselyuk lenne.
Ezert tartom rendkivul furcsanak az uj kovetelest, hogy mindegyik lista
nevreszolo, sajat csoportot akar, meg egyebek. (Ha ilyet akarnak menje-
nek az alt-hierarchiaba.)

>Listat benyomni egy newsgroupba indokolhatatlan eroszakos "joakaras".

Voltakeppen ingyenreklam a lista szamara. A postazas ketoldaluva tetele
a listak es Usenet egy csoportja kozott pedig a csoport rejtett privatiza-
cioja. 

>A lista benyomasa egyszeru mass-posting, azaz bun, ami felett valami
>erzelmes  elgargyulasban hajlamosak vagyunk eltekinteni.

Igen, belegondolva van benne valami. Tobb, mint 50 000 Usenet szerver van.
A FORUM, BLA, OMRI-digest ebbol kifolyolag otvenezer helyre szetmasolodik,
foglalja a helyet, pedig maroknyi ember olvassa csak oket a Useneten. ( Az
az egy-ket ezer (allitolagos) olvaso elofizet ra, levelben kapja)

Mivel rajtam kivul mas nem irt, hogy itt olvasna ezeket a listakat, azt
kell felteteleznem, hogy a vilagon en vagyok az egyetlen. :) :) :)

Tamas

In article >, 
 says...
>
>It's scary to think that today's Netters are tomorrow's world rulers.

Don't worry. The VAST majority of them aren't and can never be. They
will be the multitude of heads on which tomorrow's rulers dance.

>--James

Rob

In article > Rad Edelstein, 
writes:
>World Soccer - Feb 96 coments on page 30:
>"Now Ferencvaros have to qualify again and keep the momentum going
>while sorting out the racist element which has attached itself to the
>club and behaved so disgracefully during Ajax's visit."

>Does anybody know what this refers to?

Yes. There got too many poor clubs too near to the big money to en-
danger the income of some rich west-europian clubs. So they tried
everything to force the unwanted competition out. AFAIK, Ukraine
were disqualified this way..

Back to the Hungarian team. There was no fascism at all during
Ajax's visit. The Hungarian fans always boooo-s regardless of the
colour or nationality of the opponent. All the opponents are booed.
It is a Hungarian thing. Well, we don't riot, don't destroy ships,
don't break everything when our team lost....

It is disgusting that this denigration was started by a man who during
his active days as soccer player spitted into the face of an other player
during a match. I think he did not have the moral ground to do it.

Tamás

T. Kocsis > wrote:
>
>Back to the Hungarian team. There was no fascism at all during
>Ajax's visit. The Hungarian fans always boooo-s regardless of the
>colour or nationality of the opponent. All the opponents are booed.
>It is a Hungarian thing. Well, we don't riot, don't destroy ships,
>don't break everything when our team lost....
>
>It is disgusting that this denigration was started by a man who during
>his active days as soccer player spitted into the face of an other player
>during a match. I think he did not have the moral ground to do it.
>
>Tamás

If you had seen the tv coverage of the Ferenc.-ajax game you could 
clearly see a nazi-flag behind one off the goals......surely that one 
wasn't the only flag in the crowd......If you had listened to the home 
crowd you could have heard the jungle/monkey-sounds they were constantly 
shouting.

According to all objective viewers (I'm NOT an ajax-fan) The 
Ferenc.supporters (only the one's who did all this ofcourse) are a big 
disgrace to soccer all around the world......

Take the Africa cup as an example: only happy people who are dancing and 
supporting there team..

PEOPLE WHO ATTEND SOCER MATCHES AND DON'T SUPPORT THERE TEAM BUT OFFEND 
THE OTHER TEAM AREN'T REALLY SUPPORTERS ...ARE THEY ?
(sorry for the shouting part)

Bart

Before reading this message, SAVE IT !!!, as future reference.
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Attibabbaus in arabian

The noted Hungarian historian, Istvan Nemeskurty, has published
a fascinating study (in Hungarian) of the events of the years 1920-1944 
in Hungary. It contains a wealth of little known facts and quotations
from contemporary observers. 

	Nemeskurty Istvan, Bucsupillantas
	Szabad Ter, Budapest, 1995.

The book gives an excellent portrait of the last decades of the
Hungarian Kingdom.

CSABA K ZOLTANI

Re: Minority Rights in Western Europe (2)

The example of Belgium is an excellent paradigm of how a multi-ethnic
state can create an environment where different groups can coexist and
develop.

Belgium unites Walloons, Flemish and a smaller German group.
Geographically it is situated at the juncture of the Latin and Germanic
language regions: the French, German and Dutch. Belgium is subdivided into
three communities, based on language: Flemish, the French and a
German-speaking Community.

This constitutional monarchy was first established in the form of a
decentralized state with the stablishment of provinces and communes
in 1831. The reform of 1921 introduced linguistic equality. With the
revisions of 1980 and 1988, Article 4 of the Constitution acknowledges
four linguistic regions and communities which are empowered with
autonomy encompassing exclusive responsibility for education as
specified in Article 24. Interestingly enough, by Section 3 of Article 4,
the limits of the four linguistic regions can only be changed or modified
by a law adopted by majority vote in each House, on the condition that
the majority of the members of each group are gathered together and from
the moment that the total of affirmative votes given by the two
linguistic groups is equal to at least two thirds of the votes cast.

A special feature of the Belgian approach to minority rights protection
is the alarm-bell procedure of Article 54 which is designed to protect
the interest of French-speaking minorities in federal legislation. Article
99 provides for a language mix of the ministers.

A basic ingredient of the enlightened West European approach is
tolerance and a recognition that assimilationist policies are
incompatible with democratic values. It is no idle speculation to say
that the adoption of the Belgian approach to ethnic relations in rump
Yugoslavia, Slovakia or Romania, not to mention other newly established
countries in East-Central Europe, could defuse ethnic tensions and
surely would ensure a better life for both minority and majority
populations.


CSABA K ZOLTANI

Archive-name: hungarian/faq
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: faq
Last-modified: 1996/02/05
Version: 1.21
Posting-Frequency: every fifteen days

	Hungarian electronic resources FAQ

               TABLE OF CONTENTS

1.      News and discussion groups in English
1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute
1.2  News from Central Europe Today
1.3  The Hungary Report
1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)
1.5  MOZAIK
1.6  On USENET
1.7  'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 
1.8  , the Hungarian-American list

2.      News and discussion groups in Hungarian
2.1  HIX (many groups and services)
2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle
2.3  Other discussion groups

3.      Interactive services
3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web
3.2  Gopher and other interactive services
3.3  ARENA

4.      The Net in Hungary
4.1  BITNET/HUEARN
4.2  HUNGARNET
4.3  FidoNet
4.4  Finding out somebody's email address

5.      Odds and ends
5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary
5.2  Conventions for coding Hungarian accents
5.3  Information sources about the rest of Central and Eastern Europe

6.      Contributors to this FAQ

7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 I know this is very long, perhaps too long for human consumption ;-).
One of the tasks for further editing is to make it more concise,
perhaps drop some parts altogether (I'd like to hear any suggestions).
You can search for the section titles listed above and skip what you
don't want, and many Unix newsreaders would jump ahead to the next one
with Ctrl-G (the format now follows the digest specification)!

------------------------------

Subject: 1.  NEWS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS IN ENGLISH

 Note: commercial networks -- such as CompuServe or AOL -- may have
their own in-house forums relating to Eastern and Central Europe. Be
aware that those are only open to the subscribers of the particular
service, unlike the discussion groups accessible by anyone via the
Internet and Usenet! This file -- the hungarian-faq -- is primarily
concerned with resources freely available netwide.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute

 The Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest is available via
electronic mail, at no charge. The Digest covers all of the former
Soviet Union, East-Central and Southeastern Europe and is delivered in
two parts, each roughly 15 kByte in size, Monday through Friday (except
Czech holidays).

 You can subscribe by sending <mailto:>.
In the body of the message, type
 "SUBSCRIBE OMRI-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname" (leave out the quotation
marks and be sure to substitute your own name where shown).

 You can get reposts of just the items related to Hungary by
subscribing to Mozaik. See section 1.5.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.2  News from Central Europe Today

 Central Europe Today On-Line is a free daily news service covering the
important events and business news in the region. To subscribe, send
the word SUBSCRIBE <mailto:>. For more
detailed information, send a blank email message
<mailto:>.

Again, these exceed Hungary in scope, but you can get excerpts
pertaining to Hungary in Mozaik (see 1.4).

------------------------------

Subject: 1.3  The Hungary Report

 The Hungary Report is a free weekly English-language online update of
news and analysis direct from Budapest each Sunday. The Report consists
of briefs, one feature story and an expert political opinion column.
The briefs cover the most important and interesting developments in
Hungary each week, while the feature stories address variously
politics, business, economics, arts and leisure. The weekly political
column, Parliament Watch, is written by Tibor Vidos, director of the
Budapest office of GJW, a British political lobbying and consulting
firm. To subscribe, send
<mailto:> containing (in the body
of the message, not in the headers) the single word "subscribe" (no
quotes).  Or send the word "info" to the same address for further
information.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)

 This discussion list is a "kind of Internet supplement" to the column
of the same title in Budapest Business Journal; to subscribe, send the
word "subscribe" <mailto:> (you'll get help
from its Majordomo server, if needed).

------------------------------

Subject: 1.5  MOZAIK

 This is actually one of the services of HIX, meaning there's a slight
bit of Hungarian mixed in (the posts themselves are mostly in English,
but the server speaks Hunglish ;-)). MOZAIK brings you original content
(e.g. the schedule of DUNA TV, exchange rates), and digested reposts
of those news items (originating from OMRI, CET and other sources)
that bear directly on Hungary. You can subscribe by
sending a blank email message to <mailto:> and
unsubscribe by sending one to <mailto:>. See
section 3 about searching the HIX archives.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.6  On USENET

 The Hungarian newsgroup in the worldwide hierarchy is
<news:soc.culture.magyar>. It's mostly in English, sometimes
bilingual, and occasionally Hungarian only. The group is archived 
by HIX (see its section for 'SCM') and is also readable under
<http://hix.mit.edu/usenet/>;. A similar archive is to be found at
<http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/>; (see 1.8 below).

 Since May 1995 Hungary has its own netnews hierachy, with the following
groups created so far (hun.lists.* are email gateways):
        <news:hun.test>
        <news:hun.news>
        <news:hun.piac>
        <news:hun.comp>
        <news:hun.general>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.forum>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.hunet>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.moka>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.otthonka>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.szalon>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.tipp>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.vita>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.otthon>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.guru>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.kornyesz>
        <news:hun.lists.katalist>

 If you can connect to a remote news server (typically by setting the
NNTPSERVER variable under Unix), then you can get hun.* directly from
news.sztaki.hu or news.iif.hu (the former has been more stable
lately). Fetching articles is much faster from a local source - ask
you system administrator if they can get a feed! In the USA the first
provider offering the hierarchy seems to be AltNet,
<mailto:> to find out about that.  There is a gopher
interface to news: <gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/11/News> (the full URL to
go straight to the hun.* groups is:
<gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/1exec%3A-g%20hun%3A/bin/gonnrp>). These groups
are also archived by HIX (see its section for 'HUNGROUPS') and they
are also readable under <http://hix.mit.edu/usenet/>; as well as
<http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/>;.
 HIX provides a universal posting gateway to the soc.culture.magyar
and hun.* newsgroups. Use the addresses:
<mailto:>, for example
<mailto:>. A similar gatewaying service
is also available via <mailto:> (see 1.8 below).

 There are Hungarian local newsgroups available through
<telnet://ludens.elte.hu>, login with username GUEST (no password), and
enter NEWS to start the newsreader (you can use the VMS online help to
learn about it). The guest account is set up for accessing
<news:elte.diaklap> (students' journal at Eotvos U.), but other
newsgroups are available as well. (But please be considerate to the
strained network resources of Hungarian sites - from abroad for
non-local news use other providers.) For ELTE-specific questions
contact <mailto:>. This server is also accessible
via remote NNTP like the two mentioned above, but is often much slower
than those.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.7 'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 

  is a discussion group providing rapid communication
among those with interests in Hungarian issues. Subscribe by 
<mailto:> using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY Yourfirstname Lastname. Once you
have subscribed, any messages which you want to send to the group
should be sent to the group address, <mailto:>.
(This pattern of two addresses is standard: you turn your mail off and
on at the "listserv" address, and you send mail to the listname
address. For example, to  unsubscribe, send the server the message
SIGNOFF HUNGARY. You can temporarily turn off you mail by sending
listserv the message SET HUNGARY NOMAIL. SET HUNGARY MAIL turns mail
back on.) By default the listserv sends out messages as they arrive,
maybe several ones on busier days. If you prefer daily digest format,
you can issue the command SET HUNGARY DIGESTS (again by sending it to
the LISTSERV address); alternatively you can subscribe to HUNGARY via
HIX as mentioned in 2.1, and receive the same format as the other lists
by HIX. LISTSERV has many useful features, most notably database search
on the list archives - to learn more about it, send commands like SEND
HELP, SEND HELP DATABASE.

 Note that the form of addressing LISTSERV lists such as Hungary may
depend a great deal on your local network configuration and mailer
software. For BITNET mailers you need GWUVM only; the local gatewaying
to BITNET may be BITNET% for VAXMail installations and
 at other places. Ask your local network
administrator first if you're experiencing problems.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.8  , the Hungarian-American list

 The Hungarian-American List is an unmoderated discussion forum to
promote communications between people with interest in modern Hungarian
culture and Hungarian cultural heritage. The list brings you, among
other things, news items originating from OMRI, CET, the Hungarian
media and several other sources, that might be of interest for
Hungarians and Americans. The WWW Home Page of the Hungarian-American
list is <http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/>;. Subscribe by
<mailto:>, using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY. The Hungarian Usenet group -
soc.culture.magyar is available for Hungarian-American List subscribers
via email. You can subscribe to this news-to-mail-to-news service by
<mailto:>, using no Subject, in the body of the
letter write SUBSCRIBE SOC-CULTURE-MAGYAR. The WWW address of the
interactive soc.culture.magyar archive is
<http://mineral.umd.edu/soc.culture.magyar/>;.

 (Notice that this Maryland-based list is distinct from the older
LISTSERV list mentioned in 1.7 that has a broader focus - mentioning
'the HUNGARY list' ususally refers to that latter one!)

------------------------------

Subject: 2.  NEWS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS IN HUNGARIAN

------------------------------

Subject: 2.1  HIX

 HIX, or Hollosi Information eXchange, is a non-profit formation run
and supported by several individuals and organizations. HIX was started
in 1989/90 and now it reaches more than 10,000 readers in about 45 countries
around the World.

Its services, mostly in Hungarian, are abundant and change frequently, so
it is best to obtain an up-to-date help file by sending an email message to
<mailto:> (a recent copy of that also seems to be in
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/MAIN/HELP.ALL>; - but please
notice that there are superseded copies scattered in other parts in
the archive on the one hand, and many of the other files in this same
directory are outdated on the other hand; most notably, DO NOT TOUCH
that ancient version of hungarian-faq found there!). Here's a list of
what it currently offers in email digest format:

 HIR      -- 'Hirmondo', current newspaper survey edited in Budapest
 NARANCS  -- The Internet edition of the 'Magyar Narancs' weekly
 TIPP     -- politics-free questions, tips etc.
 SZALON   -- moderated political discussion forum
 FORUM    -- unmoderated political discussion forum
 GURU     -- computer-related questions
 RANDI    -- moderated personals; anonymous submissions possible
 VITA     -- moderated non-political discussion forum
 OTTHON   -- issues around the home
 MOKA     -- jokes, humor (Hungarian and other)
 MOZAIK   -- semi-regular bits of news and other info, mostly in
	     English, crossposts from the OMRI list, VoA gopher, CET
	     and other sources
 HUNGARY  -- daily digest of the Hungary LISTSERV list (see 1.7)
 SCM      -- gatewayed email digest of the Usenet newsgroup
             soc.culture.magyar 

 The following is not available for email subscription from
Hungary, but are accessible via the SENDDOC interface (or the
'finger ' service for the latest issues):
 HUNGROUPS - gatewayed email digest of the hun.* regional newsgroups

 Note that KEP (transcripts from the videotext news from Hungarian
Television's Kepujsag) has been suspended indefinitely - despite what
HIX' own HELP says.

 To subscribe (unsubscribe) to a particular email-journal, send email
to  ) where NAME is one of the
above.

 The postings for the HIX discussion lists are sent out daily in
digested form. You can send your own submission to ,
whatever NAME is (provided it's actually a discussion list).

 The volume for some of these lists is becoming rather high, e.g. TIPP
often digests dozens of messages in hundreds of lines daily!  You ought
to try targeting your audience properly in order to find those who'd
help with your questions; also keep in mind that readers often answer
to the list rather than the individual even when personal reply is
requested, so if you ask something it's a good idea to subscribe also
(even though technically it's not required) instead of just addressing
a list as a non-subscriber. A reminder to those who reply to a post:
always remember that list messages get sent to several thousand readers,
so consider personal email if the subject is not of general interest!
If you answer through a list it's courteous to send a personal copy
(Cc: with most mailers) as well - this may reach the addressee
considerably earlier than the post distributed through the list.
 Notice the (undocumented) feature of the HIX mail-server: it only
accepts submissions if its address is found in the 'To:' header field!
It would quietly ignore incoming email Cc-d to it, so do not put the
 in the 'Cc:' (you can do so with other addressees).

 The HIX server can also send out archived files, see the SENDDOC
function in its description. In case you have any problems or questions
on the HIX services, please read through the automatic help response
first. If you need human intervention you can reach
<mailto:> - but keep in mind that list managers have
to do plenty other than answering things already laid out in the Fine
Manual.

 You can also view the output of HIX interactively. See section 3.

------------------------------

Subject: 2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle

 Daily selection of articles from leading Hungarian newspapers by
the Lajos Batthyany Foundation, published by the Hungary.Network.
 
 To subscribe (unsubscribe), send email to <mailto:>
(<mailto:>). Also available in 123 accent notations
from the <mailto:> address.

 It is also readable on the WWW under <http://www.hungary.com/bla/sajto/>;.

------------------------------

Subject: 2.3  Other discussion groups in Hungarian

 A number of email lists are available from servers located in Hungary,
for directory see <gopher://HUEARN.sztaki.hu>. There are many college
publications available online as well, check out the links from the HU
homepage (see below).

------------------------------

Subject: 3. INTERACTIVE SERVICES

 If you are using Hungarian interactive services from abroad (or vice
versa): please note that interactive Internet connections like gopher
may be very slow, even timing out during peak hours - try times of
lower network load when the response time is usually reasonable.

------------------------------

Subject: 3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 This document you are reading now is hosted at
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq>;, and its directory
has a few other documents and several links to other sites of
interest.

 The Hungarian Home Page is at
<http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html>; with links to the
registered Hungarian www servers, including

     - the Prime Minister's Office:  <http://www.meh.hu>; (overseas users
    please notice that the use of the <http://www.hungary.com/meh/>;
    mirror is requested to cut down transatlantic traffic!)

     - a weather forecast page (this is updated daily, and includes weather
    forecasts, meteorological maps, and METEOSAT satellite images; this
    page is in Hungarian)

     - home pages of Hungarian cities (currently Budapest, Debrecen,
    Miskolc, Pecs, Szeged), and of educational and other institutions 

     - a comprehensive list of Hungarian telnet services (e.g. library 
    databases), gopher and ftp sites (3.2). The content of almost all the 
    Hungarian FTP sites is indexed and can be searched.

 The Hungary Online Directory (HUDIR) is at
<http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>; featuring a hierarchical
database of Hungarian online content worldwide. Currently it has links
in excess of 2500.

 HIX has a WWW server in the USA: the URL is <http://hix.mit.edu>;.
To check out fresh content, see <http://hix.mit.edu/friss2/>;, which
gives you a comprehensive table of content for new material arrived in
the last 24 hours (which is typically in the order of 100-150 pages).
Besides back issues of its email journals, and a plethora of other
files in Hungarian and English, it offers an on-line English-Hungarian,
Hungarian-English dictionary (<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/szotar/>; - its
European mirror is at <http://tpri6l.gsi.de/szotar.html>;), and various
home pages and pointers to other sources. Partial mirrors located in
Hungary are <http://www.eunet.hu/eunet/hix/>; (for the Magyar Narancs
archive), and <http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/>; (for some pictures, and
searching the Radir database - see below).

 Hungary.Network - The GateWWWay to Hungary at
<http://www.hungary.com/>; has a number of government, commercial and
organizational users listed.

 TourInform is at <http://www.hungary.com/tourinform/>; is the service
of the Hungarian Tourism Service, the official promotion agency of the
Hungarian Tourist Board. They offer practical information, maps,
broshures and even tours on video casette.

 The Open Media Research Institute has a WWW server, available at
<http://www.omri.cz>;.  Available at this Web site are all back issues
of the Daily Digest, tables of contents for Transition, OMRI's
bi-weekly analytical journal, and information about OMRI's activities
and staff.

 The World Wide Web server of Central Europe Today is at the URL
<http://www.eunet.cz>;.

 Find back issues of the Hungary Report on the World Wide Web at 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-report/>; or <http://www.isys.hu/hol>;. 
The Hungary-Online archive is available from 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-online/>; or <http://www.isys.hu/hrep>; 
as well.

 There is a growing Hungarian resource directory at
<http://mineral.umd.edu/hir/>;.

 There is a "Foreign Languages for Travellers" collection of essential
Hungarian expressions with English, German and French explanation,
complete with sound at
<http://insti.physics.sunysb.edu/~mmartin/languages/hungarian/hungarian.html>;.

 The American Association of Young Hungarians (AAYH) has its homepage
at <http://www.aayh.org/>;.

 A Hungarian church in Chicago has info at
 <http://users.aol.com/MikeC16958/>;.

 The Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College (Nyiregyhaza) offers 
some 3000 pages worth of database for Szabolcs-Szatmar-Bereg county 
(Eastern Hungary) as well as other goodies and general Internet help,
in both Hungarian and English: <http://www.bgytf.hu/>;.

------------------------------

Subject: 3.2  Gopher and other interactive services

 HIX has a server in the USA: <gopher://hix.mit.edu>. Its services
form just a subset of what it offers as a WWW site. RaDir is sometimes
useful for finding email-addresses, old or new friends on the Net. See
also Section 4.4.

 HIX has a gopher in Hungary as well:
<gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX>, and another mirror at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/hix> (notice that this latter uses a
non-standard Gopher port number). Check also <gopher://gopher.elte.hu>
and <gopher://gopher.sztaki.hu>. Note that gopher is essentially
text-based (thus less satisfying than the Web) but often faster
(therefore less frustrating).

 CET's gopher is called <gopher://gopher.eunet.cz>.

 HIX documents from the archives of hix.mit.edu are available via the
(Unix) 'finger' protocol. Try 'finger ' to see how it
works.  This may be the easiest and fastest access from some sites.

 There is an electronic library at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/elibhu/> (notice the non-standard port)
that has much Hungarian text material, including some classical
poetry.

------------------------------

Subject: 3.3  ARENA

 An interactive chat service of HIX, run by the Hungary.Network.
Similar to IRC, but it does NOT require any client software. Simply
<telnet:hix.hungary.com> and you are there.

------------------------------

Subject: 4. THE NET IN HUNGARY

 Overview: historically, ELLA was the first home-grown X.25
email-system in Hungary. It survives till this very day. EARN was next,
with its BITNET-like infrastructure (4.1). Full Internet connectivity
is provided by HUNGARNET (see 4.2), which really comprises all
academic, research and public non-profit sites.

 Here's a partial list of its domain names:

bme.hu          Technical University of Budapest
sztaki.hu       Computer and Automation Research Institute, Budapest 
elte.hu         Roland Eotvos University of Sciences, Budapest
bke.hu          Budapest University of Economic Sciences
sote.hu         Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
abc.hu          Agricultural Biotechnology Center, Godollo 
gau.hu          Godollo Agricultural University, Godollo
klte.hu         Kossuth Lajos University of Sciences, Debrecen
jpte.hu         Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
u-szeged.hu     Members of the Szeged University Association
bgytf.hu        Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College
uni-miskolc.hu  University of Miskolc
kfki.hu         Central research Inst. of Physics, Budapest 
vein.hu         University of Veszprem, Veszprem
bdtf.hu         Berzsenyi College, Szombathely
szif.hu         Szechenyi Istvan College, Gyor
blki.hu         Balaton Limnological Res. Inst. of Hung. Acad. Sci.

A schematic map of its topology ('HBONE'):

EBONE    EMPB                          EMPB   EBONE

  ^       ^                             ^       ^
  |       |                             |       |
  |       |   Microwave center ======= IIF Center ------- Miskolci Egyetem
  |       |      Budapest            /   Budapest            Miskolc
  |       |    //  ||    \\         /   //   |
  |       |   //   ||     MTA-KFKI /   //    L--------------- BGYTF
  |       |  //   MBK     Budapest    //     |             Nyiregyhaza
  |       | //   Godollo             //      |
  |      BME              MTA-SzTAKI//       L--------------- KLTE
  |    Budapest ########## Budapest          |              Debrecen
  |      ***                                 |
  |      ***                                 L--------------- GAMF
  L------BKE                                 |              Kecskemet
       Budapest                              |
          #    \                             L---------- Veszpremi Egyetem
          #     \                            |              Veszprem
         ELTE    \                           |
       Budapest   JATE                       L--------------- JPTE
                 Szeged                                       Pecs

 LEGEND

 ***  100 Mbps FDDI
  #    10 Mbps optical cable (Ethernet)
  =     2 Mbps microwave
  |    64 kbps leased line (that's 0.064 Mbps)

Source: HUNGARNET/NIIF (URL <http://www.iif.hu/hungarnet.html>;)

 FidoNet is described in section 4.3, and commercial
networks/email/Internet Providers demand a separate document
('commercial.FAQ'), also see <http://www.sztaki.hu/providers/>;.

------------------------------

Subject: 4.1  BITNET/HUEARN

 What follows is a listing of all EARN nodes in Hungary, with contact
info.  This information is also available on the following gopher:
	 <gopher://cc1.kuleuven.ac.be/11/nodeearn/hungary.helpnode>.

HUBIIF11 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                      
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : hubiif11.sztaki.hu                   
      User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBIIF61 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                    
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : mars.iif.hu                          
      User Info: Istvan ;+36 1 1665644
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBME11  Technical University of Budapest
     Technical University;of Budapest;Muegyetem rkp 9. R. ep;H-1111
     Budapest, Hungary           
     Internet address : atlantis.bme.hu                      
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 4632422               
     Fax : +36 1 1665711             

HUBME51  Technical University of Budapest                                  
     Technical University;Muegytem Rakpart 9;H-1111 Budapest               
     Internet address : bmeik.eik.bme.hu                     
     User Info: Laszlo ;+36 1 1812172                 
     Phone : +36 1 1812172            ; Fax : +36 1 1166711             

HUBPSZ12 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                  
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hubpsz12.sztaki.hu                   ;
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBPSZ61 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             

HUBPSZ62 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of
     Sciences;Lagymanyosi ut 11;1111 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUEARN   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary               
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : huearn.sztaki.hu                     ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 2698286                   
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUECO    University of Economic Sciences Budapest, Hungary                 
     University of Economic Sci;Computer Center;Kinizsi u 1-7;1092 Budapest
     Internet address : ursus.bke.hu                         ;
     User Info: Robert ;+36 1 1175224                    
     Phone : +36 1 1181317            ; Fax : +36 1 1175224             

HUELLA   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary           
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Node admin: Gizella ;+36 1 1497986                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGBOX   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary            
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hugbox.sztaki.hu                    ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 1497532                
     Phone : +36 1 1497532            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGIRK51 University of Agriculture Sciences
     University of Agriculture;Pater Karoly ut 1;H-2103 Godollo
     Internet address : vax.gau.hu                           ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 28 30200 -1015              
     Phone : +36 28 30200 -1015       ; Fax : +36 28 20804              

HUKLTEDR Kossuth Lajos University Debrecen, Hungary                       
     Internet address : dragon.klte.hu                       ;
     User Info: Robert                           

HUKLTE51 Kossuth Lajos University, Debrecen                                 
     Kossuth Lajos University;Egyetem Ter 1; PF. 58;H-4010 Debrecen        
     Internet address : huni7.cic.klte.hu                    ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 52 18800                      
     Phone : +36 52 18800             ; Fax : +36 52 16783              

HUSOTE51 University of Medical Science Budapest, Hungary                   
     University of Medical Science;SOTE;Ulloi u. 26.;1085 Budapest         
     Internet address : janus.sote.hu                        ;
     User Info: Gabor ;+36 1 1141705                 
     Phone : +36 1 1141705            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866

HUSZEG11 Jozsef Attila University, Szeged, Hungary                         
     Jozsef Attila University;Computer Centre;Arpad ter 2.;H-6720
     Szeged;Hungary                
     User Info: Ferenc ;+36 62 321022
     Miklos ;+36  
     Phone : +36 62 321022            ; Fax : +36 62 322227             

------------------------------

Subject: 4.2  HUNGARIAN ACADEMIC AND RESEARCH NETWORK (HUNGARNET)

 This information is also available on
<http://www.ripe.net/ripe/hungarnet.html>;.

Organisational Structure: 
 HUNGARNET is an association and also the computer network of Hungarian
institutes of higher education, research and development, libraries and
other public collections. HUNGARNET funding comes from the R&D
Information Infrastructure Program (IIF) sponsored by the Hungarian
Academy of Science, the National Committee of Technological
Development, the Ministry for Culture and Education and the National
Science Foundation. About 500 organizations have access to HUNGARNET
services. HUNGARNET as an association represents Hungary in
international networking organizations (e.g. TERENA).

Generic Services:
 HUNGARNET provides access to the Internet and several other national
network services over leased lines and the public packet switched data
network. Lot of different services (e.g. gopher, ftp, WWW, data bases)
provided by member organizations are available on the net. Centrally
supported and coordinated services are:
 - email (internet SMPT, EARN BSMTP, OSI X.400, UUCP, XXX ELLA) 
 - email gateways between the different email systems above 
 - distribution services (LISTSERV, news) 
 - information services (ftp, gopher, WWW servers, data bases) 
 - directory services (X.500) 
 - individual accounts and login

External Connectivity:  
 HUNGARNET is subscriber to EBONE and EMPB/EuropaNET as well. There are
two 64 kbps leased lines to EBONE (Vienna EBS). These two lines should
be upgraded to a single 256 kbps line in the near future.  HUNGARNET
uses two 64 kbps interfaces on the EMPB/EuropaNET node in Budapest as
well. These two interfaces should also be upgraded to a single 256 kbps
interface very soon.

Internal Connectivity: 
 Internal connectivity of HUNGARNET is based partly on the public X.25
service of the Hungarian PTT and partly on the community's private IP
backbone network (HBONE). The kernel of the HBONE infrastructure is in
Budapest, where several important organizations are connected in
different ways (64-256 kbps leased lines, 1-2 Mbps microwave links, 10
Mbps optical Ethernet, 100 Mbps FDDI). Several cities (regional
centers) in the country are also connected to the network via 64 kbps
leased lines (Miskolc, Nyiregyhaza, Debrecen, Kecskemet, Szeged, Pecs,
Veszprem) and 2 Mbps microwave (Godollo). Now there are about 50
organizations directly connected to the backbone and about 50 others
using IP over X.25. The number of the registered, connected hosts is
about ten thousand. There is an ongoing development, new regional
centers (Kaposvar, Keszthely, Szombathely, Sopron, Gyor) and several
organizations in Budapest will be connected subsequently.  Many users
do not have IP connectivity yet but are connected to the public X.25
network. There are several services (e.g. individual login, mail,
gopher, news) that are open for traditional XXX/X.25 access.

Contact Persons:
Miklos NAGY <mailto:> - head of the HUNGARNET/IIF 
					coordination office
Laszlo CSABA <mailto:> - HUNGARNET/IIF technical director
Balazs MARTOS <mailto:> - HBONE project manager
Nandor HORVATH <mailto:> - Local Internet Registry, 
				.hu top level domain contact
IP address and domain administration: <mailto:> 
Network management: <mailto:>

------------------------------

Subject: 4.3  FidoNet

 FidoNet connects through sztaki.hu, as indicated above.

 There are three FidoNet nodes: Budapest NET (2:371/0); West Hungary
Net (2:372/0); and Tisza NET (2:370/0). If you want to write on the
FidoNet, chances are you already know how. *PLEASE* find out what you
are about to do instead of experimenting with the Hungarian net - don't
add to the problems for the folks in Hungary having to deal with the
underdeveloped phone system and outrageous international tolls ;-<. For
further information I post a Fido-sheet separately from this FAQ, where
there are also telephone numbers and further addresses, but again: try
to verify that you are mailing to a valid address (the BBS situation
may have changed since the copy you are reading got updated - look for
current FIDO listing on the net, or better yet contact the person you
want to reach by other means first)!. If you can send Internet email
and have the FidoNet address, you can write to it by transforming it to
appropriate .FIDONET.ORG format.

 Fidonet mail works with Hungarian BBS's but you have to know whom to
reach. I will attempt to maintain a separate Fido posting to Usenet;
please try to make sure you email to a valid address and in particular
avoid using outdated sources on Hungarian BBS's (otherwise your
misdirected trial will burden the Hungarian network coordinator!).

------------------------------

Subject: 4.4  Finding out somebody's email-address in Hungary

 The bigger academic domains have on-line directories (CSO phonebooks):

Technical University, Budapest
      gopher://goliat.eik.bme.hu/11/engl/tel-adat/hazi-tele

Budapest University of Economic Sciences*
      gopher://URSUS.BKE.HU:71/11/kozgaz/telefon
(*under construction)

Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
      <gopher://xenia.sote.hu:105/2>

Central Research Inst. of Physics, Budapest
      <gopher://sunserv.kfki.hu:105/2>

Members of the Szeged University Association
      <gopher://sol.cc.u-szeged.hu:105/2>

Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
      <gopher://ipiux.jpte.hu:1051/2>
	<http://ipisun.jpte.hu/cgi-bin/ph.pl>;

University of Veszprem
      <gopher://miat0.vein.hu:105/2>

 ELLA also has an on-line directory: <telnet://hugbox.sztaki.hu:203>
(i.e. address a special port). Note that the opening screen uses
special characters for the accented letters but the data records have
combinations of vowel plus ',: or " instead (i.e. searching for
hollo'si would retrieve a record, but hollosi won't)!

 If the person has registered him/herself with the RaDir database of
HIX, you might try the following (note, however, that most parts of
RaDir are badly out of date):

 - by <gopher://hix.mit.edu/11/HIX/radir> (a link to the same is
offered by <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/>; on the World Wide Web); from
inside Hungary use <gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX/radir>, or
<http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/radir.html>; (this last one is a true HTML
search form)). Under RaDir, you'll find the entire database
cross-indexed by search keys.

 - by 'finger +whois:"SEARCHWORD"@hix.mit.edu' you can look up records
containing "SEARCHWORD" string in the database

 - by email: send a blank message <mailto:>. You'll
receive, in several chunks, the entire database of users, their
electronic and snail-mail addresses, etc. You'll need a decent editor
to search what you're looking for.

 If you have some idea what institution to check at, you may find an
online directory service -- many are available, and could be reached
through the Hungarian gophers (or WWW sites) mentioned in section 3.
Try contacting the (electronic) postmaster, usually
, or using 'finger' to inquire about users.

 As a last resort, send in your query to a discussion group. Readers of
<news:soc.culture.magyar>, <mailto:> discussion
list (section 1.7), or some HIX-list (<mailto:> in
particular, see 2.1) may be able to help. Be aware, though, that most
participants are located abroad - especially in the case of the Usenet
group!

------------------------------

Subject: 5.  ODDS AND ENDS

------------------------------

Subject: 5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary

 The electricity is 220 V, 50 Hz. The frequency, in fact, fluctuates a
lot, but it doesn't cause any problem when operating computer devices.
(Don't trust too much your plug-in clock radios though.) If you are
from any country running on 110 V or around, due to complications in
voltage conversion, a battery driven laptop or notebook is your best
bet. However, if you decide to take your desktop system, printer, etc.,
you  have a good chance that the device can also be operated on 220 V.
Check it first before you go through unnecessary trouble. If not, you
have to apply 220 V to 110 V AC converters (you might need more than
one; check the power ratings of your devices & converters). WARNING!
Your converters should be designed for *electronic/motorized devices*.
Refuse any converter for *heating appliances* even if its power rating
is much higher! These converters are not real transformers, and can
cause major damages to your electronic devices.

 Also make sure you are able to connect to the Hungarian grounded power
outlet, because that's what's recommended for your appliances.
Therefore you should try to find grounded plug adapters and/or voltage
converters.  Connecting to ungrounded outlets causes possibly no harm,
but for your own & your devices' safety grounded connections should be
preferred.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2  Conventions & standards for coding Hungarian accents

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.0 Introduction & section overview  

 During the evolution of teletypes and computers, two character tables
survived, acquiring major importance in later computer systems. One is
EBCDIC, primarily used in ancient IBM mainframes. The other one, ASCII,
can be considered today's ubiquitous standard in computing worldwide.
The rest of this section, therefore, pays attention to ASCII code, very
unfairly ignoring EBCDIC, since none of the accent conversion programs
support neither this code table nor the CMS environment.

 Since the language of computing has been English from the beginning,
the original ASCII table was limited to the characters used in English:
letters of the Latin alphabet, a few punctuation marks and some other
special symbols. Since the number of all these characters, plus the
unprintable "control" characters (located in the first 32 positions of
the ASCII table, responsible for different control functions) doesn't
exceed 128, the real 'brilliant' idea of representing the ASCII table
in 7 bits spread like wild fire all over the computer world. No wonder,
that most of the Internet mailers and Usenet hubs are also set up to
forward documents in 7-bit ASCII only.  (Read the rest of the section
carefully to learn how to overcome these problems.) As computing and
word processing started to rise up in the rest of the world, there was
an increasing demand to represent these national characters as well. (A
good example is Hungarian. The extra consonants [nonexistent in
English] are formed by merely juxtaposing 2 (or 3 in case of dzs)
regular Latin characters; so there is no problem here.  However, the
special vowels of the language are denoted by applying different
accents on the Latin 'base-vowel', introducing new characters, the so
called accented vowels.) It's an obvious idea to place these national
characters and other fancy symbols utilizing codes 128 to 255, still
remaining within the byte limit. Different character sets have been
created by defining purpose- or language-specific characters for the
upper half of the table, while keeping the 7-bit ASCII codes unchanged.
(Note:  Some character sets also re-use codes between 0 and 31, the
domain of ASCII control characters, keeping some, or none of them.
Using these codes, however, is pretty difficult, device- and
implementation-dependent, etc.  Therefore it wouldn't be wise to put
accented characters here, but fortunately none of the sets listed below
did it actually.) Hopefully Unicode will ultimately stop this
confusion, but until then there's a long long way to go.

At this point let's clarify the terminology:

... ASCII (also 7-bit or plain ASCII) data:
Usually text (but not necessarily, see 5.2.5.1.), containing only 7-bit
ASCII characters, including the control ones.
... 8-bit (extended) ASCII data:
Text containing the uniform 7-bit ASCII characters, plus special
characters (with code greater than 127) according to one of the 8-bit
character sets.
... Binary data:
Non-text data (executables, pictures, etc.) containing any 8-bit value.

 The different kludges accepted by Internet users to denote accented
vowels in 7-bit ASCII are described in 5.2.1. The most important
extended ASCII character sets are introduced in 5.2.2. 5.2.3 shows the
accented character representations used by high-level formatting
languages. The correct ways of transferring files among word processor
[on the Net] are detailed in 5.2.4. If the data to be transferred is
not 7-bit ASCII, 5.2.5 tells you what to do. Last, but not least, 5.2.6
introduces the programs in the HIX archives (and mentions some others)
that address the problem of conversion between the various types of
accent representation.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.1 House rules for plain (7-bit) ASCII

 If you are limited to the use of 7-bit ASCII, you have essentially the
following choices to deal with the accented characters:

5.2.1.0 No accent marks at all

 Simple and sure-fire. In fact, the most common 'solution'.

5.2.1.1 The '~" coding (also called "marking notation" or "Babai-code")
        [Sometimes nicknamed as _repu~lo"_.]

 Here's a sample:

         O~t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu~nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu~ko~rfu'ro'ge'p
         O~t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru~lt i'ro't nyu'z

or, in the alternative ':" _repu:lo"_ format:

         O:t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu:nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu:ko:rfu'ro'ge'p
         O:t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru:lt i'ro't nyu'z

 Quite readable, though a bit tricky to disambiguate mechanically:
remember, the " or : or ' may also serve as punctuation marks. (This
problem can be handled using Maxent's escaping capabilities, see
5.2.6.6.)

Warning! Don't get confused: in TeX (see 5.2.3.1) " denotes umlaut!

5.2.1.2 The 123 coding (also "numerical notation" or "Pro1sze1ky-code")

 Here's the same text:

         O2t hu3to3ha1zbo1l ke1rtu2nk szi1nhu1st
         a1rvi1ztu3ro3 tu2ko2rfu1ro1ge1p
         O2t sze1p szu3zla1ny o3ru2lt i1ro1t nyu1z

 The only one that's both short and unambiguous, though it takes some
getting used to. 1 stands for the stroke, 2 for the short umlaut, 3 for
the 'Hungarian' or long umlaut (double acute). Very easily converted to
other formats. (Also can be ambiguous, though with much smaller
probability. E.g. U2, CO2, , etc.)

5.2.1.3 Telegraphic style. For example,

         Oet huetoehaazbool keertuenk sziinhuust
         aarviiztueroe tuekoerfuuroogeep
         Oet szeep szuezlaany oeruelt iiroot nyuuz

 Avoid it like the plague because

1. It's ambiguous. (Think of Goethe, Oetker, Eoersi, Csooori, poeen.) 
2. Coding of o" & u" (o3 & u3) is not consistent:
   u3 = ue (fallback to u2), uue, uee, ueue
3. Absolutely not a pleasure to read.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.2 Fancy 8-bit character sets (extended ASCII)

 The following rollcall lists the most important character sets
supported by the majority of hardware and software, including the
accent conversion programs. The available Hungarian accented characters
are detailed for each set.

Notes: 

 Henceforth when referring to an accented character, the numerical
(Pro1sze1ki) notation will be used to maintain clarity.


5.2.2.1 PC-codepages

(*) PC-437: Hardware

 The basic hardware character set of PC-compatible systems. Since it
was supposed to contain many symbols (line drawing characters, some
Greek letters, etc.), and be general, it's pretty poor in terms of
accented characters. Missing Hungarian vowels: o3, u3 [substitute them
with o^ & u^], A1 [substitute it with A-circle], I1, O1, O3, U1, U3.

(*) CWI recommendation for Hungarian accents:

A standard initiative to replace the many house rules of character code
assignment for accents unavailable in PC-437. Codes are assigned as
follows:

o3->147 [o^], u3->150 [u^], A1->143, I1->141 [i`] or 140 [I^],
O1->149 [o`], O3->167, U1->151 [u`], U3->153 [y~]

(*) PC-850: Multilingual

Contains all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.
Note: ? means o, u, O or U.

(*) PC-852: Latin 2

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

(*) PC-860: Portuguese
(*) PC-863: Canadian-French
(*) PC-865: Nordic

These sets miss various Hungarian accents, esp. in upper case. Using
them for a Hungarian text makes absolutely no sense.

5.2.2.2 ISO character sets

 These character sets are specified by ISO standards. As far as ALL
(not only Hungarian) accented vowels concerned, ISO 8859/1, 2 & 9 is
equivalent to Windows Latin 1, 2 & 5 respectively.

(*) ISO 8859/1:
(*) ISO 8859/3:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

(*) ISO 8859/2:

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

 Fonts for iso-8859-2 (and some other) character sets can be found at
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/font/> for various operation systems, and at
<ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/> (mirrored at
<ftp://ftp.vma.bme.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/> and
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/>) mostly for Unix. There is
material for Hungarianizing the Linux (and possibly other Unix variant)
operation system at <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/linux/>.

5.2.2.3 Others

The following character sets are supported by various laser printers. 
Roman-8 bears special importance as being the default character set of
many printers.

(*) Ventura International & Roman-8:
(*) MC Text:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.3 Text formatting languages

 The text formatting languages listed below, beyond their powerful text
formatting capabilities, also include the specification of [almost] all
the accented characters. These languages give an alternative way of
dealing with accents in 7-bit ASCII, especially if the software that
can display, print or convert these representations is available.
[Unlike notations in 5.2.1, the "raw" files of these languages are not
intended to be read by ordinary users.]

5.2.3.1 [La]TeX. 

 Invented by D. E. Knuth, TeX (pronounce as [tech]; 'X' denotes the
Greek letter 'chi'), and the macro collection based on it, LaTeX, are
today's most popular text formatting languages for document creation
and DTP.

To continue with the same example,

 \"{O}t h\H{u}t\H{o}h\'{a}zb\'{o}l k\'{e}rt\"{u}nk sz\'{\i}nh\'{u}st

 \'{a}rv\'{\i}zt\H{u}r\H{o} t\"{u}k\"{o}rf\'{u}r\'{o}g\'{e}p

 \"{O}t sz\'{e}p sz\H{u}zl\'{a}ny \H{o}r\"{u}lt \'{i}r\'{o}t ny\'{u}z

 This is meant to be printed with TeX or previewed as a dvi file.
 Wholly unambiguous, can be automatically converted to/from several
other formats (see 5.2.6). Also check the babel system for LaTeX with
the Hungarian specific option, available from FTP sites kth.se or
goya.dit.upm.es.

5.2.3.2 HTML (HyperText Markup Language)

 Unfortunately, the HTML-2 standard still does not contain notation for
Hungarumlaut (long umlaut, double acute). We use tilde or circumflex
instead. The preferred notation is o with tilde õ and u with
circumflex û. In the example above,

   Öt hûtõházból kértünk
   színhúst

   árvíztûrõ
   tükörfúrógép

   Öt szép szûzlány õrült
   írót nyúz

5.2.3.3 RTF (Rich Text Format)

 This standard is widespread among Microsoft word processors. For
non-ASCII characters it uses the following coding:

\'XX

where XX is the code of the given ISO 8859/2 (or PC-852 for Word for
DOS) character in hexadecimal.

5.2.3.4 Adobe PostScript

 It is a universal standard for describing any kind of graphics,
including fonts, but it is aimed at producing the final (typically
printed) copy of documents and not at word-processing per se. For a
starter document see <http://www.adobe.com/PS/PS-QA.html>; or
<ftp://wilma.cs.brown.edu/pub/comp.lang.postscript/FAQ.txt> or
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/comp.answers/postscript/faq/part1-4>.
If one has the right accented fonts sets then, in theory, the output is
transferable between different machines - but often we run into hurdles
in practice.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.4 Microcomputer products: The word processors 

 Different word processors on different microcomputers use several
proprietary internal control sequences to handle accented characters,
as much as other symbols, and other text formatting commands. If you
want to transfer a document like this, you have to convert this [very
probably] binary file (8-bit ASCII with all kinds of binary crap) to
text (7-bit ASCII), see 5.2.5.1, unless your mailer can handle binary
directly, see 5.2.5.2. Make sure, however, that the recipient of your
document also possesses the same or equivalent word processor, or a
word processor supporting the format you used.

 It might happen that you want to use your document in another word
processing system, or a plain text editor. Today's word processors
offer conversion to a few formats, and also pure text with different
character sets (5.2.2). The resulting file, if necessary, can be
converted further to 7-bit ASCII as shown in 5.2.6. (The output is
already 7-bit ASCII in Microsoft's RTF, see 5.2.3.3.)

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.5 Switching binary to ASCII and vice versa

5.2.5.1 Uuencode & uudecode

 The easiest and most popular way of conversion between binary and
ASCII is the use of the twin sisters uuencode and uudecode. These
programs were created originally for Unix ('uu' stands for Unix to
Unix), but today they are implemented under most platforms.

 Uuencode makes an ASCII file out of a binary one, forming 61 character
long lines to avoid problems excessively long lines can cause in the
different mailer agents. This conversion increases the size of the file
by 40%.  Warning! Understand the really goofy usage of uuencode. The
parameters specify the local & remote BINARY filenames respectively.
The encoded ASCII result is sent to the standard output, it has to be
redirected into a file explicitly. (E.g. uuencode myface.gif myface.gif
> myface.uue )

 Uudecode converts the encoded ASCII file back to binary. It is smart:
using the "begin" and "end" tags placed in the encoded file, uudecode
is able to retrieve the encoded information automatically discarding
everything before and after the tags (headers, signatures, other junk),
even if it's inserted in the middle of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Its
usage is also simple: only the input filename has to be specified; the
original filename is restored from the "begin" tag. (E.g. uudecode
yourface.mal )

5.2.5.2 MIME support

 Many modern mailers support the MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail
Extensions) standard being able to transfer different file formats
beyond plain text. In this case the ASCII/binary conversion is the
mailer's internal affair. Some mailers make explicit calls to uuencode
and uudecode, some others (e.g. PINE) have different built in
conversion algorithms, trying to choose the most appropriate one for
the given binary file. (One type of MIME encoding substitutes an
unprintable character by its code in hexadecimal, preceded by an =
sign. That's why you often see them splattered around.) In either case,
however, the user is not responsible for the conversion, the mailer
takes care of it automatically.

5.2.5.3 Binhex

 BinHex files are 7-bit ASCII text files, typically used for encoding
Macintosh binaries. Conversion is done by various applications, see eg.
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/comp.answers/macintosh/general-faq>.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.6 Translating between various accent formats

 From the HIX archives (see section 3) the following programs are
available.  The regular location is 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/info/programs/>;, though
you should also check <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/>; 
for updates. At the time of this writing the SENDDOC archive is 
extremely ill-organized and outdated in many parts, including, 
unfortunately, the 'new' directory.

 Warning! From abroad always access the HIX archives via 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/>;,
<gopher://hix.mit.edu/11/HIX/senddoc>,
<mailto:>, or 'finger '
(the latter only works for text, and you may have to redirect it to a
pager or file). The mirror at <gopher://hix.elte.hu> is updated only at
certain periods of time, also there is a limited bandwidth on the lines
connecting Hungary to the world (see section 4).

5.2.6.1 ekezettelenites

 Gabor Toth's UNIX shell script for deleting unwanted accents from mail
files.

5.2.6.2 etex

 Gabor Toth's shareware C source code for converting the marking or
numerical accent notation to TeX-format. It also claims to be capable
of hyphenation. Supports the UNIX platform.

5.2.6.3 hion

 Peter Verhas's C source code. It's an improved version of etex, as it
reduces the probability of incorrect hyphenation with some built-in
exception library. Hion is able to do the conversion between the
numerical (or, redefining each accent mark, also the marking) accent
notation & TeX-format, and remove accents if the input is an accent
notation. Read his documentation. Supported platforms: VMS, MS-DOS,
UNIX. Available from <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/TeX/hion.tar.gz>
or <ftp://ftp.digital.bme.hu/hion/>.

5.2.6.4 drtc.c

 Peter Verhas's freeware C source for conversion between text and RTF
(Rich Text Format), character sets ISO 8852/2 (Latin 2), PC-852 (Latin
2) and CWI. The program attempts to find out the inbound format
automatically, RTF or text as well as used character set. The outbound
format is the same as the inbound format, the program changes only the
character set. In other words, the program does not convert from RTF ot
text or from text to RTF. Supported platforms: VMS, MS-DOS, & UNIX and
other platforms supporting ANSI C.

5.2.6.5 hun.c

 Gabor Ligeti's freeware C source code for accent removal and
conversion between the marking & numerical accent notation, TeX-format
and PC-852 (Latin 2) codepage. Warning! Conversion capabilities are not
orthogonal, type hun /? for the supported conversions. No platform
limitations are indicated.

5.2.6.6 MAXENT.UUE_V6.0a

 Peter Csaszar's freeware C source code compressed with pkzip & encoded
with uuencode (see 5.2.5.1). Warning! As of 6/12/95, the HIX gopher's
/HIX/SENDDOC/info/programs directory still contains 'maxent.c', the
very old version V1.4 of Maxent. Don't touch this file, go for version
V6.0a, currently in <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/MAXENT.Z>;.

 Maxent provides 100% orthogonality in conversion between any of the
accent notations listed in 5.2.1 but telegraphic style, and any of the
character sets listed in 5.2.2, allowing multiple notations in the
input file. The domain of conversion includes 6 vowels and 6 accent
types, applying therefore a house rule extension of the marking and
numerical accent notations. (Hoping that this extension becomes widely
accepted, no longer remaining a house rule.) Language accent profiles
other than the default Hungarian can be selected. Further accent
services include accent notation escaping & de-escaping (see 5.2.1.1),
and flexible substitution of the o3 etc. characters.

 Beyond some little services, the rest of the major features provide
comprehensive retabulation strategies, full newline conversion
capabilities and script file execution (ideal for maintaining mail
folders after download).

 The help given by the program can be saved into a file by typing
maxent -h0 > maxent.hlp . Print this file for fancy bedtime reading.

 Maxent supports only the MS-DOS environment, and should be compiled by
a Borland C compiler. This is the sacrifice for the extensive services
provided.

5.2.6.7 ekezet.dot

 Via anonymous <ftp://bme-tel.ttt.bme.hu/pub/income/ekezetes/>, you can
find Kornel Umann's WinWord template capable of many kinds of
conversion.  Also find other goodies in the directory above.

5.2.6.8 hixiso

 Olivier Clary's Unix scripts for converting accented text appearing
on HIX are at <ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/hixiso.tar.gz>.

------------------------------

Subject:  5.3 Information sources pertaining to the rest of Central Europe

 This section is by no means to be comprehensive. For a big but dated
(1992) list see
<gopher://poniecki.berkeley.edu/00/archives/polish.archives/Network/EE-MotherLi
st>.

 Both OMRI and CET cover the general region in their news. See Section
1.1 and 1.2, respectively.

 To complement the HUNGARY list (see Section 1.7), at the same listserv
at Buffalo there exist the Middle European discussion list MIDEUR-L as
well as POLAND-L and SLOVAK-L. Send the usual command to
<mailto:> (or simply  on
BITNET):

      SUBSCRIBE listname-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname.

 On Usenet there is soc.culture.romanian, soc.culture.czecho-slovak,
soc.culture.polish, and the gatewayed bit.listserv.mideur-l and
bit.listserv.slovak-l; bit.listserv.hungary has been established, but
many sites do not have it. The surest way to receive everything is via
email. If you prefer using Usenet newsreaders you find HIX's HUNGARY
digests posted to soc.culture.magyar (which group does not seem to
suffer the poor propagation affecting some of the bit.listserv
groups).  Please notice that while the listserv groups are
bi-directionally gatewayed, i.e. posts to them get propagated back to
the original mailing list, the posts coming from HIX to
soc.culture.magyar are mere copies of the mailing list messages - do
not reply to the newgroups since your answer won't reach the email
readers (who constitute a likely large majority).

 Speaking of limitations of distribution be aware that some commercial
Internet connection providers (most blatantly American Online)
established their own groups with topics overlapping existing Usenet
hierarchy. The utility of these local groups is seriously limited since
they are, unlike the open real Usenet newsgroups such as those
mentioned above, unavailable to anyone but their own subscribers (i.e.
a small domestic fraction of all the Internet/Usenet users worldwide).
Please do not post to non-local groups saying how nice would be to use
these specialized forums - we can not. Use the newsgroup
soc.culture.magyar or the mailing lists!

 The Central European Regional Research Organization (CERRO) can be
joined at <mailto:> with the command
SUBSCRIBE CERRO-L Firstname Lastname.  This is a scholarly group that
deposits papers and the like in an electronic archive in Vienna.  The
archive is accessible with anonymous <ftp://wu-wien.ac.at>, or with
<gopher://gopher.wu-wien.ac.at>.

 The Eastern Europe Business Network ) is
primarily remarkable for its size (1700+ subscribers). Messages tend to
be brief bursts of announcements, questions and, unsurprisingly, calls
for or queries about business. The list is administered by Yale's Civic
Education Project (Chris Owen, <mailto:>). To
subscribe, send a message to the address
<mailto:> that has

             subscribe e-europe YourFirstName YourLastName
in its body.

 The repository for Voice of America material, accessible with
<gopher://gopher.voa.gov>, also contains some information and news
items relevant to the region.

 Check the NATO archive for goodies: <gopher://gopher.nato.int>.

 The Slovakia Document Store will answer all your questions about
Slovakia:  on the World Wide Web, <http://www.eunet.sk>;, via
<gopher://gopher.eunet.sk>, via <ftp://ftp.eunet.sk/slovakia/>, via
gophermail: send a message with Subject: HELP
<mailto:>.

------------------------------

Subject: 6.  CONTRIBUTORS TO THIS FAQ

(the order is alphabetical by last name)

Beke Tibor     <mailto:>           general layout, 2.1, 5.3
Bruner, Rick   <mailto:>     1.3
Csaszar Peter  <mailto:>   5.1, 5.2
Fabian Peter   <mailto:> 3.1, 4.1, 4.4
Fekete Zoli    <mailto:>           much of the rest
Hewes, Cameron <mailto:>      1.2
Hollo Kriszta  <mailto:>         4.2
Umann Kornel   <mailto:>        5.2
Varnum, Ken    <mailto:>       1.1

 If you have a question or remark regarding some specific section, you
may want to contact its author. The FAQ as such continues to be
maintained by Zoli Fekete <mailto:>. The keeper hereby
expresses the many thanks we all owe to every contributor - and above
all to Tibor Beke who brought about this cooperative effort, and took
upon consolidating the whole (with Peter Csaszar who took over the
next-to-last editing). Still, any errors are the responsibility of
Zoli - who'd like to hear all corrections, recommendations or just
comments readers may have!
 Acknowledgement is also due here to Jozsef Hollosi and Arpad Palotas,
for providing webspace to this FAQ on the HIX server and helping to
improve its homepage, respectively.

------------------------------

Subject: 7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

 One of these days ;-) there will be a guide here about how to handle
all the strange things that you may see embedded in this text; but in
the meantime, if you don't know yet what URLs are and are not reading a
copy thru a WWW browser that may show a selectable link: just do the
sensible thing and use email to access 'mailto:' addresses, ftp for
'ftp:' and telnet for 'telnet:'...

 Updated versions of this document will be in
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/posted>;
or <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq>. Notice
that the canonical Usenet archive <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu> is often
overloaded - if you can't get connected try one of the mirror sites (of
which a list by countries can be found in
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/news-answers/introduction>
that is also available thru the RTFM mail-server shown below) - eg.
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq> in
the USA! You can also retrieve it via <mailto:>
with the command "send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq" in the body
of the message, or via 'finger '.
 A brief extract of hungarian-faq, concentrating on the email services,
is also available now
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer>; or 
'finger '.
 A separate document on network service providers in Hungary
prepared independently by John Horvath <mailto:> is
available via email from its author or via
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/comm-providers>;.

 This hungarian-faq is expected to be updated at least every couple of
months, due to the rapid changes occuring on the net. If you are
reading a copy whose 'Last-modified:' date shown on top is older than
that then many parts may be out of date - in this case get the recent
one from the sources listed above, and/or try to convince the
administrator of the site keeping the old copy to freshen it. Please
notice that retrieving from the Usenet archives is likely a lot faster
than asking me personally (and most everything I can answer is already
in here)! If you do write me <mailto:>, then give a
descriptive 'Subject:' line - keep in mind that much of my incoming
email deemed unworthy by me is deleted unread in order to keep up with
the high volume I am receiving (most of it from various mailing
lists).  The best way to ensure catching my attention - and to allow
automatized pre-processing - is to start it with 'ZFIX:' (the name my
mail-handler answers to is Zophisticated Free Information eXchange, in
case you were wondering :-)).

 This work as a collection is copyright (1990-96) Zoli Fekete, and
parts are copyright of their respective authors. Please do not
redistribute substantial portions without contacting the maintainer.
 Unauthorized publishing in off-line media - such as printed, CD-ROM or 
magnetic databases - is explicitly prohibited!  
--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 

SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!

kibokoyao > wrote:

 (Roberto Dominguez) wrote:
>>
>>  wrote:
>> : Hi,
>> :    My name is Scott Bostic and I am doing research on the SMITH FAMILY
>> : Name. My Mother is a SMITH.
>> :    My Grandfather is JOHN F.SMITH from the LANCASTER, PA area.
>> : His Father was FRANK A.SMITH also from LANCASTER.
>> : I know that my SMITH FAMILY LINE Immigrated to the US in the about 1836
>> : >From Uberfreck, Germany (now Switzerland).
>> :    I did a search for SMITHS on the NET and your name came up. If you
>> : have any information that could help me out in my research, I would
>> : appreciate hearing from you!
>> :     In particular I am interested in SMITHS from PA or Oringinally from
>> : Switzerland.
>> :     Please Email me.
>> 
> What kind of a fool are you? 

a Very uncommon one, perhaps? :)

Roger

In article >, T. Kocsis > wrote
:

: Back to the Hungarian team. There was no fascism at all during
: Ajax's visit. The Hungarian fans always boooo-s regardless of the
: colour or nationality of the opponent. All the opponents are booed.
: It is a Hungarian thing.

Please make some distinction, Tamas. Maybe all of the opponents are booed,
but strangely enough the boos are much (very much) louder when a black
player has got the ball. This was also noted by Anderlecht, where the
black players had to face similar treatment in Hungary. It's a real shame
that you somehow want to cover up the incident. Don't forget that
Ferencvaros has got a lot of fines from UEFA because of racism and
hooliganism (yes, I know, not because of the Ajax game, where everyone in
the stadium heared the boos excpet the officials). And I have never heard
such incredible boo-ing before in any match of an Hungarian team, so don't
call it an Hungarian thing. You bring down your whole country that way.

: Well, we don't riot, don't destroy ships,
: don't break everything when our team lost....

So that is why Ferencvaros got fines for hooliganism. They didn't do anything..
.

: It is disgusting that this denigration was started by a man who during
: his active days as soccer player spitted into the face of an other player
: during a match. I think he did not have the moral ground to do it.

Who are you talking about? I hope you're not talking about Frank Rijkaard,
because he had NOTHING to do with the denigration.

: Tamás

Marco

>T. Kocsis > wrote:
     >
     >Back to the Hungarian team. There was no fascism at all during
     >Ajax's visit. The Hungarian fans always boooo-s regardless of the
     >colour or nationality of the opponent. All the opponents are booed.
     >It is a Hungarian thing. 
     
     first, boos and jeers are not ONLY "a hungarian thing".  second, let's 
     not mix up boos and jeers with racial slurs and obvious monkey sounds 
     that were generated by some of ferencvaros' fans when the ajax players 
     of color had the ball.  this fact has been witnessed by many dutch 
     fans that attended the game in budapest.  i have monitored the soccer 
     pages for some time, and this event has been amply attested to.  and 
     how about that nazi flag proudly displayed in the stands :-(  
     
     i am sure that many (most) of the hungarian fans behaved in a 
     civilized way, but the ones that did not really spoiled the image of 
     ferencvaros and its hungarian fans.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >Well, we don't riot, don't destroy ships, don't break everything when 
     >our team lost....
     
     yeah, but displaying nazi flags you do, alright! ;-(
     
     -cristian
     
     
     ps: 
     
     you know, tamas, it is possible to be a ferencvaros fan while 
     acknowledging the deplorable behavior of some of its supporters at the 
     same time!

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I am planning a trip to Hungary this summer in the month of July with my 
husband and three children. I am interested in locating some sort of 
Hungarian language summer school or camp for my children ages: 5, 8 and 10 
years. All three speak (the older two also read and write) Hungarian as a 
first language. I have been directed to Debrecen and Pecs, but I have no 
specifics. Does anyone have any first-hand information? Thanks!
Erzsi Somogyi

Fekete Zoltan:
>> > Ha mar a Zoli altal szerkesztett HER FAQ olyan szepen felsorolja a
>> > magyar nyelvu levelezesi listakat, miert nem szerepel benne mondjuk a
>> > Silicon valey-i Nemzet? Igy lehet hogy masok is kimaradnak belole, 
>> > nem csak a Nemzet? 
> Az bizony lehet - miutan mindentudo nem vagyok lehetnek listak amikrol 
>fogalmam sincs, es miutan mindenhato sem vagyok korlatozott idom es 
>energiam csak korlatozott mennyisegu munkat enged meg a felsorolason 
>dolgozni ;-( (pl. az isys.hu es masok is inditottak listakat a 
>kozelmultban, amiket meg nem volt erkezesem bevenni).

Hat, ha csak a mai magyarazkodasaidat nezem, kb 10-szer felvehette
volna a FAQ-ra az emlitett cimeket. Sot, meg is kereshette volna oket.

En tovabbra is fenntartom javaslatom, hogy letesitsunk egy uj, a HIX-tol
es Fekete Zoltantol fuggetlen listat a magyar vonatkozasu elektromos
kiadvanyokrol  teljes-magyar.faq vagy valami mas neven. 

> Konkretan a Nemzet kezeloi nem erdemesitettek arra, hogy ertesitsenek mit
> csinalnak, magam pedig meg nem jutottam hozza utanajarni. [...] 

Ha ez igy is van, szerintem ez nem menti fel semmi alol. Meg kulonben is,
minek higgyunk nekik, kulonosen azt figyelembe veve, hogy mi tortent
a Hollosi es a Nemzet szerkesztosege kozt (ti. a Nemzet egyik szamanak
allitolagos Hollosi altali meghamisitasa).

Szandekos mulasztasra, sot elore kitervelt strategiara  utalnak Gotti 
[Gotthard Saghi-Szabo >, Subject: Uj magyar FAQ letrehoza
sa, 
4 Feb 1996] megjegyzesei is:

>Sajat tapasztalataim alapjan ugy erzem, Fekete Zoltan keptelen egy 
>ferditesek nelkuli FAQ-ot fenntartani. Tobbszori keresunk ellenere sem 
>volt hajlando a Hungarian American List informaciojat kicserelni; a 
>Maryland-i Hungarian American Association's  "magyar Yahoo" 
><http://mineral.umd.edu/hir/>; oldala talan meg mindig nincs rajta a 
>FAQ-on - hacsak nem egy megszunt URL formajaban, amit tobbszor 
>kertunk megvaltoztatni.

> Ha tobben ugy erzik, hogy Fekete Zoltan nem vegez tisztesseges - 
> targyilagos - munkat a FAQ karbantartasaval -, ketto dolgot lehet 
> csinalni. Megkerni Feketet Zoltant hogy lepjen le mint a FAQ 
> karbantartoja, vagy, letrehozni egy uj FAQ-ot, ami ferdites nelkul 
> tartalmazna az egesz magyar skalat Hollositol Pellioniszig. 

En ez utobbit javasolnam, mert szerintem ha most nemi javulast ki is
lehet kenyszeriteni, kesobb, ha megvaltozik az scm-en a hangulat, 
mindent vissza fognak csinalni.

> [...] Arra viszont szukseg lenne, hogy a FAQ, a mindenkori magyar 
>elektronikus forrasokat huen, ferditesek nelkul tartalmazza - lehetoleg 
>naprakeszen. 

Teljesmertekben egyetertek. Kirekesztes nelkuli MAGYAR FAQ-t akarunk!
(Sajnos, "kirekesztok" viszont lesznek benne elegen ... ).

> [...] Kesz lennek egy vitat nyitni itt az SCM-en - es egy 
> interaktive WWW oldalt letrehozni - egy uj magyar FAQ letrehozasarol. 

Apropo, errol jut eszembe, nem lehetne egy olyan WWW oldalt letrehozni, amire a
z emberek
online, ill. e-mailen tudnak AUTOMATIKUSAN bejelenteni ill. update-alni
magyar vonatkozasu kiadvanyaik cimet?
Ez mindenesetre nagyban csokkentene a jelenlegihez hasonlo vitak kialakulasanak
lehetoseget. Igy a kiadvanyok szerkesztoi sokkal inkabb maguk lennenek felelose
k,
hogy mi van a FAQ-ban, mint jelenleg. Leszamitva persze azt az esetet, mikor ne
m
tudnak a FAQ-rol, de annak aktiv propagandajaval ennek lehetosege csokkentheto
lenne.

Fekete Zoltan 
>Subject: request for comments: guidelines for appropriate postings?
>Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996.
hozzaszolasaban burkoltan "cenzura"
bevezeteset javasolja. (Cenzurazni persze nem tud, de mindenfajta, altala
kitalalt, es neki alkalmas szabalyok szerint akarja marginalizalni biraloit.) 
Ez teljesen beleillik abba a strategiaba, amit manapsag
a HIX-en, es minden mas a magyarorszagi "liberalisok" altal ellenorzott
mediumban folytatnak.  (Bocs, Gotti, de ezt nem tudtam kihagyni ...) Felszolito
k minden 
joerzesu es a szabadsagot szereto embert, hogy ne doljon be ezeknek a trukkokne
k. 
Fekete el akarja szigetelni, es vegso soron halgattatni biraloit. Ezutan
jon majd a szelsosegesezes, ha elozo taktikai nem mukodnek.

> I have observed the general lowering of the level of discourse on Usenet 
>in general, and our newsgroup in particular (due to mostly a small but 
>prolific fraction of the Usenetters). Would the audience here consider it 
>worthwhile to place into the FAQ (and perhaps the charter) some basic 
>pointers as to the appropriate postings, like:

> Posters are requested to adhere to these common sense guidelines: some
>ways of posting, that either appear to gear toward generating flame-wars
>rather than discussions, or which are off topic for other reasons, are
>considered inappropriate. [...] 

Elozo mondatai mindenesetre hitelesebben hangzananak, 
ha nem lennenk eppen egy a szamara nagyon kellemetlenne valo vita kozepen.
Majd innentol ertelmesen folytatja. (Talan azert, hogy az elozo marhasagait
jobben el tudja adni??) 

Szoval roviden: Javaslatom a FAQ elvetele Fekete Zoltantol es egy interaktiv
cimgyujto WWW oldal felallitasa.

Tibor

Odor Tibor