Andras Nagy ) wrote:
: Since it came up recently, I have a question too.
: I was born in Budapest I am now an US citizen.
: I never "rejected" my hungarian citizenship.
: What is my status ?? Dual citizen ? Do I need
: a visa and how long could I stay in BP or could
: I get a work visa ? Obviously I will never give
: up my US passport, just like to go back for a
: year or less. Any usable info will be appreciated.
: Cheers
: Andra's

Andras,

As far as I know, you may still be a hungarian citizen (dual citizenship)
Just front up at the Hungarian Embassy with your proof of citizenship 
(birth certificate, internal passport etc) and after due deliberation and 
searches they will issue you a passport. You will not need a visa. If in 
doubt, ring the Embassy, someone may even give you their E mail address.
But BEWARE: they charge, like a wounded bull...

Regards

On 29 May 1995, CLARY Olivier wrote:

> The advantage compared to Nostradamus is that it seems we will not have to
> wait for many years to know whether Serbs will be affected or not... :-(

Well, I apologize.  Even though Mr. Szamosfalvi mentioned "Yugoslavia", I 
still think that "originally" the subject was [personal opinion to it] 
'it's always ironic how "insignificant" countries pull the *powerful 
countries* into (world) wars';  and of course, the latter get blamed and 
suffer more (relatively speaking - but I certainly don't mind flames) from 
it.  That's why, even though it was irrelevant to my 'Nostradamus post', I 
thought that I should consider "they" as "Western Europe" (so it can be 
relevant) - more than "Yugoslavia";-).  In any case, definitely not the 
Serb people!  They alone don't represent "Yugoslavia" (or maybe you meant 
to write "Serbia"?).  And, if going along, most people would probably 
argue that whatever'll happen to the (Bosnian-)Serbs is because[...].
Anyway, I merely 'picked on' Mr. Szamosfalvi's "elaborate prediction" (and
if considering "Yugoslavia" as "they", then also his "very relevant" 
point)...  I was probably having a bad day due to listening to some 
observations/"surprises", and solutions(?) (and unfortunately I don't 
think they're any different from the rest) of some painfully incompetent 
politicians/"experts", concerning the events that still take place in Bosnia.

Cheers,   	     
Bogdan.

In article >,
Hermes  > wrote:
>
>Hungarians and Romanians share many cultural traits.  Part of the Romanian
>stile is knowing the lenght of one's nose, a trait that nature did not seem 
>to bestow upon Hungarians in general. 
>This results in a tendency to crave thy neighbours lands, be it Slovak, 
>Romanian, Croat, Serb or Ukranian.

For a moment I tought you were describing your own country in the first
decades of this century.  After all it was Romania which increased its
size, along with some other neighbors of Hungary.

>Joe, you should return to Hungary and get elected to Parliament. That would 
>be a much better avenue to vent your biased and venomous rantings !

If calling attention to your habit of using gutter language and personal
insults is "biased and venomous ranting", so be it.  It's just another
"own goal" for you, hermes boy!

Joe

Archive-name: hungarian-faq
Last-modified: 1995/05/29
Version: 0.99.2

This is part 1 of the FAQ for Hungarian news, discussions, and email. 
This part identifies what is available and gives basic instructions for
getting it.  Part 2 gives both fuller information and more complete 
instructions, as well as tips on how to search electronic archives for 
the information stored there.
 
#######################################################################
# NOTE: Part 2 is included together with part 1 for this interim
#  release, expect separate files in the future! 
# 0.99.1: http://hix.mit.edu/, 'finger @hix.mit.edu'
# 0.99.2: news://news.iif.hu/hun.*, http://www.hungary.com/hudir/,
#  http://www.omri.cz/, gopher://gopher.eunet.cz,
#  http://www.iif.hu/hungarnet.html, lists Hungary Online, Hungary 
#  Report and , formatting URLs and minor editing
#######################################################################
 
Updated versions of these Frequently Asked Questions of Hungarian 
interest (with some answers) are posted to Usenet (and reposted every 
three weeks automatically if there are no changes to them) and 
occasionally to the email lists concerned. The latest version is
available from the Usenet archives, such as 
ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/soc.culture.magyar/ and
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/hungarian-faq/faq.html
 Notice that I am starting to show URLs - if you don't know what animal
they are ;-), don't worry just use FTP, Gopher or whatever for accessing
the sites shown after '://'! I intend this patch to be the last in the
venerable pre-1.0 series, look for the revamped version due Real Soon Now
;-) - a draft copy will be reposited in the SENDDOC archive:
http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/hungarian-faq.1-draft (also 
available via email, mailto:).

NEWS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS
 
-Q: What services are available in Hungarian language?
-A: A number of them from Hollosi Information Exchange. Recently it 
acquired its own domain name: HIX.COM, with the different services 
individually addressable (so please forget about the old XMAIL syntax)! The
services may change before their description get updated here, so
please check its own HELP for the most current description!

There are 9 major services (check mailto: for others!): 
 
  HIR      -- daily news (edited in Budapest) Hirmondo
  KEP      -- videotext news from Hungarian Television's Kepujsag
  SZALON   -- moderated political discussion forum
  FORUM    -- unmoderated political discussion forum
  TIPP     -- politics-free questions, tips etc.
  GURU     -- computer-related questions
  VITA     -- non-political discussion forum (typically longer-winded then TIPP
)
  MOKA     -- jokes, humor (Hungarian and other)
  MOZAIK   -- semi-regular bits of news and other info,
               crossposts from the OMRI list and VoA gopher

 To get a long description (more than 600 lines!), use 
mailto: - the content of these letters are ignored. To 
{un}subscribe send email to , which refers to all 
available HIX subscriptions, or to , where NAME 
is any of the applicable HIX services. For more detailed description
please refer to mailto: (for this author cannot hope to 
stay up-to-date on the continously changing flavors of HIX ;-)).
 The postings for the HIX discussion lists are sent out daily in 
digested form. You can send your own submission to , 
where again NAME is to be substituted with the actual name of the
service you want to reach. 
 Note that the volume for some of these lists is becoming rather high,
eg. TIPP often digests dozens of messages in hundreds of lines daily! 
You ought to try targeting your audience properly in order to find
those who'd help with your questions; also keep in mind that readers
often answer to the list rather than the individual even when personal
reply is requested, so if you ask something it's a good idea to subscribe
also (even though technically it's not required) instead of just
addressing a list as a non-subscriber. A reminder to those who reply to
a post: always remember that list messages get sent to several
hundred readers, so consider personal email if the subject is not of
general interest! If you answer thru a list it's courteous to send a
personal copy (Cc: with most mailers) as well - this may reach the addressee
considerably earlier than the post distributed thru the list.
 The HIX server can also send out archived files (note that the copy of 
this 'hungarian-faq' is hopelessly outdated there!), see 
the SENDDOC function in its description. In case you have any problems 
or questions on the HIX services, please read through the automatic 
help response first. If you need human intervention you can reach 
mailto: - but keep in mind that list managers have to do 
plenty other than answering things already laid out in the Fine Manual.

 The above are also available interactively with full-text search 
capability through the Internet service gopher. If you know what that 
beast is (or dare to try anyway :-)) then enter: gopher HIX.ELTE.HU -
or use a WWW browser (like Mosaic or Netscape) for gopher://hix.elte.hu. 
You really should get a program (called a gopher client) to access 
these services, if you don't have one yet! To get started, you can 
check out comp.infosystems.gopher on Usenet, or its associated FAQ from 
SENDDOC computers/gopher.faq. Note that the most recent version of this 
FAQ can be gotten through gopher, or via anonymous ftp from the Usenet 
FAQ archive: ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/gopher-faq. Those 
without FTP access should send e-mail to  with 
"send usenet/news.answers/finding-sources" in the body to find out how 
to do FTP by e-mail. If you can telnet, try the host 
consultant.micro.umn.edu (in Europe use gopher.sunet.se) - or look for 
a closer and less overloaded server in Yanoff's INTERNET SERVICES LIST 
(which also has more other Internet stuff than you ever wanted to know 
:-), available via ftp/gopher csd4.csd.uwm.edu, or email to 
). For email only connection there are 
gophermail servers. You can get started by sending mail to 
 (or ) with any or no subject 
and any or no message body. GopherMail will reply by sending you it's 
main gopher menu. To get detailed help on using gophermail, email 
 with 'help' in the Subject: line (the other server 
does not seem to support this function).
 There are other valuable documents of Hungarian interest in the 
gopher://hix.elte.hu archive, as well as links to the growing number of 
gopher servers in Hungary. You can start surfing the Hungarian gopherspace 
(that seems to be expanding by the day, so check out often) at 
gopher://gopher.elte.hu or gopher://sztaki.hu as well. Note that 
interactive Internet connections like gopher may be very slow, even timing 
out during peak hours - try times of lower network load when the response 
time is usually reasonable!

NEWEST DEVELOPMENT: as of Feb 19, 1995 there is a machine dedicated
to serving HIX! HIX.MIT.EDU has a WWW server (http://hix.mit.edu/)
as well as a gopher server, and is accessible via finger, too. Try 
'finger ' for the easiest access to the archives! There are 
going to be mirror sites in Hungary, use those from inside the country and 
the one at MIT from the rest of the world.
  A new server http://www.hungary.com/hudir/ catalogize hierarchically the 
growing number of Hungarian Internet info sources.

 For WWW users there is http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html with
links to a few hungarian www servers, including that of the Prime
Minister's Office at http://www.meh.hu, as well as to a great to a great
number of gophers and other resources. Again, the response time could
be quite good during off hours but may be unusable other times.

 There are Hungarian local newsgroups (see more on Usenet below) 
available through telnet to ludens.elte.hu, login with username GUEST 
(no password), and enter NEWS to start the newsreader (you can use the 
VMS online help to learn about it). The guest account is set up for 
accessing news://ludens.elte.hu/elte.diaklap (students' journal at 
Eotvos U.), but other newsgroups are available as well. (But please 
be considerate to the strained network resources of Hungarian sites - 
from abroad for non-local news use other providers). For 
ELTE-specific questions mailto:.
 Since May 95 our country has its own news hierarchy, available thru
news://news.iif.hu/hun.* - accessible globally via NNTP; if you
are reading Usenet from a major provider you may request that they
acquire the hun.* groups locally for you! If enough people request
this we'll get over the curent bottleneck with the HU network.

-Q: Are there Hungarian-related services primarily in English? 
-A:  is a discussion group providing rapid communication 
among those with interests in Hungarian issues. Subscribe by email via
mailto: using no subject and a message consisting 
only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY Yourfirstname Lastname. Once you have 
subscribed, any messages which you want to send to the group should be 
sent to the group address, mailto: (or just GWUVM
on BITNET). (This pattern of two addresses is 
standard: you turn your mail off and on at the "listserv" address, and 
you send mail to the listname address.  For example, to  unsubscribe, 
send the server the message SIGNOFF HUNGARY.  You can temporarily turn 
off you mail by sending listserv the message SET HUNGARY NOMAIL.  SET 
HUNGARY MAIL turns mail back on.) By default the listserv sends out
messages as they arrive, maybe several ones on busier days. If you
prefer daily digest format, you can issue the command SET HUNGARY DIGESTS
(again by sending it to the LISTSERV address); alternatively you can
subscribe to HUNGARY via HIX as mentioned above, and receive the same
format as the other lists by HIX. LISTSERV has many useful features,
most notably database search on the list archives - to learn more about
it, send commands like SEND HELP, SEND HELP DATABASE.
 Note that the form of addressing LISTSERV lists such as Hungary may depend
a great deal on your local network configuration and mailer software.
With a full-blown Internet mailer you're better off using the
gwuvm.gwu.edu alias for the host (thus the  and
 addresses), while for BITNET mailers you need
GWUVM only (and figure the local gatewaying to BITNET, like BITNET% for
most VAXMail installations). If you get stuck, help is much more likely
available next door than accross the world so ask around before posting
a query on problems with sending mail!
 Hungary Online is a "kind of Internet supplement" to the column of the
same title in Budapest Business Journal; to subscribe, send the word
"subscribe" mailto: (you'll get help from
its Majordomo server, if needed).
 The Hungary Report is a weekly English online update of news and analysis 
direct from Budapest each Sunday. To subscribe, send 
mailto: containing (in the body of 
the message, not in the headers) the single word "subscribe".
  is a group providing rapid communication 
mainly among those living in the USA with interests in Hungarian issues. 
Subscribe by mailto: using no subject and a 
message consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY .

On Usenet there is news:soc.culture.magyar, mostly in English, sometimes
bilingual, and occasionally Hungarian only. If you're not using Usenet,
ask around your site -- it's available on many Internet hosts on what
normally is known as the network news service. If you're under Unix, try
the newsreaders rn, nn, vn or trn; under other operating systems it may
be NEWSREADER or a similar name. If you don't have local access, try
TELNET BBS.OIT.UNC.EDU (or the LAUNCHPAD.UNC.EDU alias or 
FREENET-IN-A.CWRU.EDU, where you can request a permanent guest account 
with Usenet privileges (among other things).  
 
Use FTP to learn more about Usenet from the archive ftp://RTFM.MIT.EDU 
(starting with the file /pub/usenet/news.answers/news-answers-intro, 
which lists a number of alternative archives located in Europe as 
well). If you do not have anonymous FTP access, you can access the 
archives by mail server as well. To learn how, see Part Two of this FAQ 
or send an email message to mailto: with HELP 
and INDEX on separate lines of the body (make sure you put the dash in 
the address above!).
 
NOTE: RTFM used to be called differently, please use this new address
instead of the old one that's being phased out!
 
NEWS AND DISCUSSION OF EAST CENTRAL EUROPE
 
-Q: Are there reports and discussions about Hungary in its political and
geographical contexts?
-A: Several. You can get Daily Digests of the Open Media Research Institute
from mailto: (or simply 
 on BITNET) by sending the message
SUBSCRIBE OMRI-L Yourfirstname Lastname.  (Hungarian items in OMRI-L
are excerpted in MOZAIK of HIX which is also crossposted to the Usenet
news:soc.culture.magyar.)  The same listserv at Buffalo
also will subscribe you to the Middle European discussion list MIDEUR-L
or to POLAND-L or SLOVAK-L.  Send the usual SUBSCRIBE command.  On 
Usenet there is news:soc.culture.romanian, news:soc.culture.czecho-slovak, 
news:soc.culture.polish, and the gatewayed news:bit.listserv.mideur-l and 
news:bit.listserv.slovak-l; news:bit.listserv.hungary has been established, 
but many sites do not have it, and some of those
supposedly carrying lose some or all the posts. If you experience
sporadic distribution of any of the gatewayed lists complain to your
net-news administrator and/or Usenet carrier - you can always check the
list traffic by subscribing to the original email lists described above.
This is one of those problems where people in the know of your local
situation may be able to help you, but the hundreds of list-readers
scattered worldwide are most likely not! Since the gatewayed lists are
primarily LISTSERV based, the surest way to receive everything is via
email. If you prefer using Usenet newsreaders you find HIX's HUNGARY
digests posted to news:soc.culture.magyar (which group does not seem to
suffer the poor propagation affecting some of the bit.listserv groups).
Please notice that while the listserv groups are bi-directionally
gatewayed, ie. posts to them get propagated back to the original mailing
list, the posts coming from HIX to soc.culture.magyar are mere copies of
the mailing list messages - do not reply to the newgroups since your
answer won't reach the email readers (who constitute a likely large
majority).
 Speaking of limitations of distribution be aware that some commercial
Internet connection providers (most blatantly American Online)
established their own groups with topics overlapping existing Usenet
hierarchy. The utility of these local groups is seriously limited since
they are, unlike the open real Usenet newsgroups such as those 
mentioned above, are unavailable to anyone but their own subscribers 
(ie. a small domestic fraction of all the Internet/Usenet users 
worldwide). Please do not post to non-local groups saying how nice 
would be to use these specialized fora - we can not. Use the newsgroup
soc.culture.magyar or the mailing lists!

 The Central European Regional Research Organization (CERRO) can 
be joined at  with the command 
SUBSCRIBE CERRO-L Firstname Lastname.  This is a scholarly group
that deposits papers and the like in an electronic archive in Vienna.  The
archive is accessible ftp://wu-wien.ac.at, or gopher://gopher.wu-wien.ac.at,
http://www.wu-wien.ac.at. A repository for Voice of America
material accessible with gopher://gopher.voa.gov also contains some
information and news items relevant to the region. Archives of the OMRI
list mentioned above are at http://www.omri.cz/ (together with some other
related info, some RFE/RL material are forthcoming there too).
 CET On-Line, the on-line version of the daily English language radio news 
magazine Central Europe Today, is available freely by sending a message with 
the word SUBSCRIBE in the body mailto:
(or send the following in the body mailto:
	subscribe cet-online
). Its archives are at gopher://gopher.eunet.cz (or http://www.eunet.cz/),
and the list is excerpted on HIX-MOZAIK.

-Q: What are the network connections with Hungary, including BBS 
networks such as FidoNet?
-A: For a reasonably up-to-date picture of Internet see 
http://www.iif.hu/hungarnet.html - the development the net seems to
outstrip that of this FAQ ;-) (fortunately for HU, less so for my
readers). For most private users Fidonet linking personal computer BBS
systems may be a better connection alternative, but I could not get 
recent enough information on that to include here.
 
 Email is usually fast if you have the right address. For Internet 
mailings, don't forget to add a "hu" at the end for Hungary (eg.: 
); for Bitnet addresses, "huella" is in the 
nodename (ex.: ). 
(Note: huella.bitnet and ella.hu are equivalent.)
 
 There are three FidoNet nodes: Budapest NET (2:371/0); West Hungary Net
(2:372/0); and Tisza NET (2:370/0). If you want to write on the 
FidoNet, chances are you already know how. *PLEASE* find out what you 
are about to do instead of experimenting with the Hungarian net - don't
add to the problems for the folks in Hungary having to deal with the 
underdeveloped phone system and outrageous international tolls ;-<. For
further information I post a Fido-sheet separately from this FAQ, where
there are also telephone numbers and further addresses, but again: try 
to verify that you are mailing to a valid address (the BBS situation 
may have changed since the copy you are reading got updated - look for 
current FIDO listing on the net, or better yet contact the person you 
want to reach by other means first)!. If you can send Internet email 
and have the FidoNet address, you can write to it by transforming it to
appropriate .FIDONET.ORG format.

-Q: How do you contact someone in Hungary by email?
-A: If you don't know the address, ask by using the old technology of
pen, paper, and postage stamp (or telephone). 

 There are attempts to establish directory services in Hungary but 
their availability to the outside world has seemed sporadic so far. At 
the moment your best bet is to use HIX's RADIR database - see above. 
Requesting it via email with SENDDOC should be your last resort given 
its huge size and unwieldy structure, but you may be able to search it
more easily online with gopher. If you have some idea what institution
to check out, you may find an online directory service - many are
available, and could be reached thru the main hungarian gopher (or WWW)
mentioned above. Perhaps the biggest database is that of ELLA, to use it
telnet://hugbox.sztaki.hu:203 (ie. address a special port); note
that the opening screen uses special characters for the accented letters
but the data records have combinations of vowel plus ',: or " instead 
(ie. searching for hollo'si would retrive a record, but hollosi won't)!
 Alternatively you might check out Radir's user list (HIX's 
SENDDOC feature will tell you how) or send an inquiry to a discussion
group. Readers of Usenet's soc.culture.magyar and Bitnet's HUNGARY
discussion list may be able to help. Or you can send a query to the
postmaster of the Hungarian network or local server.  (See Part Two of
this FAQ for help.)
 
-Q: How are Hungarian accented letters usually represented?
-A: There are a number of solutions, mostly based on TeX. For starters
check out SENDDOC programs etex.Z and hion.Z from HIX (see above) and
also the babel system for LaTeX with Hungarian specific option,
available from FTP sites kth.se or goya.dit.upm.es. In pure ASCII
environment using English-only alphabet (such as traditional email and
Usenet posting) one could simulate accented letters with pairs of
characters; most commonly the linguistic notation is used where a long
vowel is marked with the numeral 1 (ko1r = ailment), a short "umlaut"
with a 2 (ko2r = circle), and a long one with a 3 (ko3r = the figure of
heart in the French card set). Some people prefer coding with
apostrophe, colon and (double) quotation marks (ko'r, ko:r and ko"r for
the above examples), but this results in more ambigous parsing (and
makes reading even harder in my opinion).

HOW TO IMPROVE THIS FAQ
 
-Q: How should I send suggestions, hatemail etc. concerning this FAQ?
-A: I hereby solicit any additions, corrections, suggestions or
questions.
My primary email address is mailto:. *Please* note that 
due to the high volume of email messages without informative SUBJECT: 
lines get deleted without reading!

Begin the SUBJECT: line with the string ZFIX$KERDES (followed by a 
descriptive subject of your choice) to enable automatized mail handling.

 I'd like to be notified of archives storing this document (other than
the standard Usenet FAQ repositories, typically mirroring rtfm.mit.edu).
Also, if you see an outdated version online please request updating from
the administrator!
 In closing part 1 let me express the many thanks we all owe to Kent
Bales, whose superb work editing my first drafts made me possible to 
work out the current version. Of course all errors are still my 
responsibility. As you may notice the content as well as the format 
is still too much in a flux to claim exceeding the v1.0 limit ;-(, 
but the upgrade is still free :-).

NOTE: the following is included together with part 1 for this interim 
release, expect separate files in the future!
 
                Part 2  
 
Part 2 amplifies information on Hungarian news, discussions, and email 
and adds information about useful computer resources, computing in 
Hungary, and other such technical matters.
 
Updated versions of these Frequently Asked Questions of Hungarian 
interest (with some answers) are posted to Usenet and the email lists 
concerned about every two weeks.
 
BASICS: BITNET, INTERNET, USENET, INDEPENDENT, AND COMMERCIAL NETWORKS
 
Your access varies depending upon the net you operate within.  Bitnet 
discussion lists leave messages in your mailbox, and you send mail 
messages to all other list members by writing to the list address.  
Internet users can easily subscribe because the two networks have many 
"gateways" or nodes where the networks intersect.  Usenet and 
independents such as FidoNet are different.  They forward messages to 
and from their nodes, using Internet gateways whenever possible for 
long-distance relays, but they don't have access to Bitnet discussion 
lists.  (You, however, can have somebody you know who has Bitnet access
forward list messages to and for you.  This is frequently done.)  Many 
Internet and Usenet nodes participate in Usenet News, a world-wide, 
volunteer aggregation of discussion groups which one joins and 
participates in by calling up the discussion-group messages stored for 
that purpose.  More an extensive bulletin board than a mailbox, it is 
cheaper to operate because it uses much less memory.  All members of 
soc.culture.magyar, for example, read messages stored at a few sites; 
all members of Bitnet's HUNGARY read the same message stored in 
mailboxes all over the world. 
 
At Bitnet-Internet gateways, Bitnet users can usually get access to 
Usenet News by behaving as though they are Internet users.  (Ask how, 
locally.) Otherwise they can use Telnet (TELNET BBS.OIT.UNC.EDU or 
TELNET FREENET-IN-A.CWRU.EDU, where you can request a permanent guest 
account with Usenet privileges, among other things).  Independent nodes
usually don't give access to all Usenet News groups -- only to those 
most interesting to their users -- so make yourself heard if you use an
independent.  Commercial nets usually are the same, giving access to the
most popular groups on Usenet and other discussion networks.
 
RETRIEVING OLD NEWS AND DISCUSSIONS: FTP AND MAIL RETRIEVALS
 
Some Usenet groups and virtually all Bitnet lists store old messages in
archives, which can be searched by the fileserver or by FTP.  FTP (File
Transfer Protocol) is available on the Internet but, for technical 
reasons, not on Bitnet or the others.  Bitnet provides a retrieval 
service, however. Write to  with HELP as the message and you
will receive full instructions.  Some of them will be irrelevant to 
getting messages from the archives.  The concepts should become clearer
from what follows.  
 
First you must know what to ask for, and for a list that you know about
or belong to you can simply ask LISTSERV to tell you what's in the 
archive.  Say you want material from Bitnet's HUNGARY list.  Write 
 with the message LISTDOC HUNGARY, and you'll get 
back the name(s) of the archived files, probably listed by month.  You 
won't need FTP to get these. Commands for getting them, however, vary 
from list to list, group to group. To get E-EUROPE's list, you first ask

 the following: INDEX E-EUROPE.  Then, having found the 
files or month that you want, you send the command GET E-EUROPE 
filetype-thus-and-so (as determined from the index). Sometimes LISTSERV
will tell you the precise form of the the command, but it is good to 
have handy BITNET USERHELP, gotten from  with the 
command GET BITNET USERHELP.  
   
FTP is a UNIX process which lets you transfer files from a distant 
computer to your own system if you're on Internet.  A good way of 
testing if it's available is simply to type FTP at your prompt.  If you
are prompted for an address, you've got FTP!  So either type the 
address you want or start again and do all on one line:
 
     ftp ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu
 
(This example is for the archive of the Humanities Computing Facility at
UCSB, thanks to Eric Dahlin).  Log on with the name "anonymous," and use
your e-mail address as a password.  Next, move to the directory 
containing the files by entering the command:     
 
     cd hcf  
   
Now that you're in the correct directory, you can get a list of all the
file names by entering the command:  
   
     ls  
   
Then, to transfer any of the files to your own system, enter the
command:     
     get filename  
   
It's often wise to transfer first the file called "readme," which may 
show the contents of each of the files in the directory and certainly 
will tell you more about that directory.  If you don't know in advance 
what directory to change to, move through the directory tree using the 
"ls" command and wise guesses about where you want to go.  With luck, 
you'll get what you want.  The commands may be strange (if you're a 
stranger to UNIX, but you need only a few. UNIX is case-sensitive, so 
use lower-case letters, as indicated here.  
 
Finally, end your session with the "quit" command.  If "quit" won't get
you out, try "bye" or "logout" (or Ctrl-D from Unix).
   
(Anonymous FTP is also the usual method for getting public domain and 
"freeware" or "shareware" software from the many archives around the 
world.  The courtesy asked for by these archives is that for large 
transfers you use anonymous ftp only after hours, when machine time 
isn't needed for big jobs.) 
 
Most archive files are compressed, so you'll have to uncompress them.  
If you need to learn about this, ftp oak.oakland.edu, cd 
/pub/msdos/starter and get 00-index.txt. Text files are often simply 
ZIPped.  These can be downloaded all the way to your machine, then 
unzipped with an UNZIP program.  PKZIP and UNZIP are available through 
Gopher and locally from a BBS. 
 
HELP WITH FINDING THE RIGHT FILE AND DIRECTORY: ARCHIE AND GOPHER  
 
There are shortcuts, so that you find precisely the file and its 
location(s) by searching a database.  In or near Canada, Telnet to 
ARCHIE.MCGILL.CA; in the U.S., Telnet ARCHIE.SURA.NET (in MD), 
ARCHIE.UNL.EDU (in NE), ARCHIE.ANS.NET (in NY), or ARCHIE.RUTGERS.EDU 
(in NJ).  
 
Or you can TELNET a GOPHER, which will include FTP sites on its menu.  
Choose that option and, as with ARCHIE, give GOPHER names or key words 
to look up. What you'll get is a list of sites, complete with full 
directory pathways, to files containing in their names the word or words
you asked to be searched. Knowing this, you can confidently proceed to 
follow the Anonymous FTP retrieval instructions given above.  Or you can
let GOPHER do the work for you.  It will write the file to your computer
account, and you can then download it.
 
GOPHER is now in use at a number of sites around the world, including 
Vienna and Graz, so that Hungarian electronic archives should be 
searchable with Gopher's aid.  Gopher plugs right into Archie sites.  
Because it also usually contains electronic addresses for local users, 
it may soon be a good source for Central European e-mail addresses. 
CONSULTANT.MICRO.UMN.EDU is the grandparent GOPHER site, and you can get
a complete list of current GOPHERs from CONSULTANT.
 
E-MAIL AND OTHER COMPUTING IN HUNGARY

 NOTE: the specifics given below for the network in Hungary is very outdated
(it originated sometime in early '93 at the latest)! I figure I better
leave it in here for the time being, for two reasons: 1) history 2) I
don't have the time to do the complete revisal needed just now ;-(. The
situation in general improved a lot since, the capacity (and complexity)
of international connections increased several times. As I mentioned
earlier, even the resource-intensive WWW connections work (most of the
time anyway) at acceptable speed.

Hungary's four domains (basically four separate lines) are these:
 
kfki.hu (Central Research Institute for Physics)
elte.hu (Eotvos University [Budapest])
sztaki.hu and all other *.hu (Automation and Computerization Institute,
            Hungarian Academy of Sciences)
huearn.bitnet and huella.bitnet.
 
They connect to the world as follows:
 
             ------------
  ___      /| UUCP nodes |
 /   \____/  ------------
|  X  | X25  ------------
|  2  |-----| ELLA users |
/  5  \      ------------                                       To Linz,
\     /       -----------  dial-up  ------                      9.6 kbps
|  N  | X.25 |           |---------| UUCP |                         ^
|  e  |------|  sztaki   |   ...    ======                          |
/  t  /      | EUnet BB  |---------| nodes|                      X25|
\  w  \       -----------\          ------          SLIP    ---     |
|  o  |            |      `--------------------------------| H |    |
|  r  |       -----------           -----------            | B |----
|  k  |      |  gateway  |---------|           |    BSC    | O |
\    _/       -----------          |  HUEARN   |-----------| X |
 |__/ \            |               |           |            ---
       \X25   -----------           -----------
        \    |           |
         `---|   ELLA    |----(dial-up)
             |   (IIF)   |      users
              -----------
 
Hungary has a connection to EARN (European Research Network) which is a
9.6 kbps leased line from Budapest to Linz. They use the same line 
through a multiplexer to connect the EUnet backbone to mcsun and the 
Internet. There is a local gateway between the EUnet backbone and the 
EARN  national backbone. It is possible to connect to the EUnet backbone
using the national X.25 network or dial-up lines up to 9.6 kbps speed.
There is also a central mailbox system called ELLA that individual users
can connect to.  Most universities and research institutes are connected
to the ELLA mail-only network (typical address: ).
Part One of this FAQ tells how to get addresses.  You can also ask the 
postmasters for help.  ELLA's is .  (Or ,
Internet style.)

 NOTE: Fidonet mail works with Hungarian BBS's but you have to know 
whom to reach. I will attempt to maintain a separate Fido posting to 
Usenet; please try to make sure you email to a valid address and in 
particular avoid using outdated sources on Hungarian BBS's (otherwise 
your misdirected trial burden the Hungarian network coordinator)!
 
TRAVELING WITH A COMPUTER IN HUNGARY
 
The electricity is 220 volt, 50 cycles, but in fact it fluctuates a 
lot.  A battery driven laptop or notebook is your best bet.  You can 
drive a printer through a simple small converter, but check plug types 
in advance.  The Hungarian standard is two-pronged, and your computer or
printer may well be three-pronged.  The converter may also be 
three-pronged stepped down to two-pronged, but check before you leave.
Just in case, take along one three-prong to two-prong plug adapter, to 
if you want to plug in the battery charger and the printer at the same 
time.
 
You want e-mail?  If you will be working at a university or research 
institute or large business, chances are you can get access to ELLA.  
But if it's just a visit, the best is to get on the FidoNet.  
 
-- Zoli Fekete, email:  (preferred, or )
    alternative addresses:  on the Cleveland Freenet
        on the UNC BBS
        (home of the late Agora ;-()
"For my assured failures and derelictions, I ask pardon beforehand of my
betters and my equals in my calling." - Rudyard Kipling
 Zoli  (note my old full address @bcuxs2 is retired)
"For my assured failures and derelictions, I ask pardon beforehand of my
betters and my equals in my calling." - Rudyard Kipling

On 28 May 1995  wrote:

> For a moment I tought you were describing your own country in the first
> decades of this century.  After all it was Romania which increased its
> size, along with some other neighbors of Hungary.

Man indeed you lack the ability of giving attention to detail ;=))
They only took what was theirs, hell we didn't even ask for reparations.
After using and abusing Transylvania for many centuries, the settlement
of 1918 was quite mild.

> If calling attention to your habit of using gutter language and personal
> insults is "biased and venomous ranting", so be it.  It's just another
> "own goal" for you, hermes boy!

Now you are very much doing me injustice ! Gosh, if I need you to call
attention to my 'habit of using gutter language...', it means that I must
have been quite ineffective. Don't despair, there is a lot of room for 
improvement in this area !

m. cristian

In article > JELIKO, 
writes:
 >You see all 
>these "egg" farms with roosters tied to plastic barrels.

Yes ! Even they (I think the Spiegel TV) made interview
with one owner and with one trainer/coach/employee
who by chance was of German origin so the riport went
on in German. The guy said he got the basic know-how in
rooster-training in Malaysia when he was in service
(US Army) over there.

>PS. How about some chicken paprikash afterwards ?

No, if it is made from the competitors. They said that those
chicken are full of steroids. After the shown (Malaysian)
cockfights the unlucky loosers were cremated. What a
loss otherwise: excellent food  for bodybuilders might be
made from them. 

Tamás

Mellekelem (azok kedveert, akik nem olvastak a HIX-en) a HIX-SCM lista
beharangozojat a newsgroup-email gateway es archiv beinditasarol:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Issue____________: *** TIPP 1765 ***
Date_____________: Tue May 30 00:28:03 EDT 1995
Publisher________: Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Disclaimer_______: Authors bear full responsibility for their articles.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Send-Articles-To_: >
Subscribe________: >   or >
Unsubscribe______: > or >
Help_____________: >
Supervisor_______: >
Interactive______: http://hix.mit.edu/ or finger 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Kedves Olvasok:

A jovoben a Usenet soc.culture.magyar csoport cikkeit (az ott is megjeleno
HIX ujsagok kivetelevel) megtalaljatok a HIX SCM nevu ujsagjaban.
Ez a megoldas elsosorban az archivalast segiti, hiszen ily modon
ez is visszakeresheto lesz akar evek mulva is; masodsorban azokat,
akik nem tudjak az scm-et a Useneten olvasni.

Mivel a Usenet terjesztes (ahol elerheto) nagyon hatekonyabb,
ezert a HIX SCM-et azokbol az orszagokbol nem lehet elofizetni, ahonnan
altalaban jol lehet a newsgroupokat is olvasni. Az archivum
(www/gopher/finger) viszont barhonnan elerheto.

Jozsi. /HIX/

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

-- 
 Zoli  (note my old full address @bcuxs2 is retired)
"For my assured failures and derelictions, I ask pardon beforehand of my
betters and my equals in my calling." - Rudyard Kipling

In article > "Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq" <f
> writes:
>Issue____________: *** TIPP 1765 ***
>Date_____________: Tue May 30 00:28:03 EDT 1995
[...]
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
[...]
>Jozsi. /HIX/
>
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Az ilyen szupervizori üzenetből is jó lenne csinálni egy hun.lists.hix.tipp
cikket, mert például én nem láttam ezt mindaddig, amíg Zoli nem idézte!
-- Olivier

*  6:30 PM   05/30/95  TUESDAY         LECTURE ABOUT TRIANON PEACE TREATY
***************************************

Dr. Ka'lma'n Magyar, president of the Hungarian Historical Society will 
present his talk about the Trianon treaty. He is going to answer the 
audience's questions afterwords . 
(the lecture will be given in Magyar (Hungarian) language ) 

 Chapel of Wesley Theological Seminary 
 4500 Massachusetts Avenue N.W.
 Washington, D.C.


--
personal email,          mailto:
Hungarian-American list, mailto:  
WWW,                       http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard

 (F. Szilagyi) wrote:
>Kerem szepen, uraim, ez itt a soc.culture.magyar, nem a roman kultura 
>internet-lapja! Maradjanak otthon Romaniaban, ne dumaljanak a magyarok 
>internet page-ejen roman nyelven. Mi ezt nem ertjuk!
>Hagyjanak abba, tunjenek el innet! Rohadt romanok!

But Mr. Szilagyi,
A man with a university address is speaking of "rotten Romanians".
A very sad situation.

In article > Zoli Fekete,  writes:
>Ez a megoldas elsosorban az archivalast segiti, hiszen ily modon
>ez is visszakeresheto lesz akar evek mulva is;

És ez miért jó nekünk ?

A Usenet spontaneitása vész el ezzel, pont az a dolog,
ami miatt szívesebben írok ide, mint a HIX-re; pont az,
ami a Usenet báját, szubkultúra jellegét adja. 

A Usenet nem sajtótermék.

Ezzel az arhiválással  az scm is egy unalmas újsággá válik,
ahol többé nem már lehet kötetlen formában társalogni, mert
az óvatosabb vitapartnerek  -- én egyébként nem ilyen vagyok
-- háromszor is megfontolják, hogy leirjanak-e valami rázósat,
amit N év után a szövegkörnyezetből kiragadva az orruk alá
tudnak dörgölni... 

Az archivált újságszörnyszülött nem fogja tudni tükrözni
azokat az emberi (baráti, haveri vagy akár ellenséges) kap-
csolatokat, amik az állandó résztvevők között --soxor a hát-
térben, emilen keresztül --kialakultak, és ami nélkül a le-
mentett anyag torz, értelmezhetetlen, halott, kétes értékü
információtömeg.

Tamás

Thanks to all of you who replied to my request, especially to 
Michael Brook from London and Julien Mannoni from France. 
Michael Brook currently organizes a filmfest from Tarkovsky's movies (see 
below for details). There is a site on the Web,
http://www.msstate.edu/Movies/welcome.html
where you can get plenty of information about other movies, directors, 
etc. 
Tarkovsky fans, here is the most complete list 
probably you've ever seen about his cinematograpy on the USENET :

1959/60 There Will Be No Leave Today [????]
         ( student short film )

1961    The Steamroller and the Violin [Katok i Skripka]
         ( student short film )

1962    Ivan's Childhood  [Ivanovo Detstvo]
          based on a novel by Mikhail Bogomolov

1966    Andrei Rublev
          original screenplay co-written with Andrei Konchalovsky

1972    Solaris
          based on the novel of the same title by Stanislaw Lem 

1975    Mirror [Zerkalo]
          original screenplay based on Tarkovsky's own life

1979    Stalker
          based on 'Roadside Picnic' by Arkady & Boris Strugatsky

1983    Nostalgia
          original screenplay

1983   Covent Garden production of Mussorgsky's 'Boris Godunov' -
       which was restaged in the early 1990s in Russia, filmed for TV, 
       and is available on video 

1986    The Sacrifice [ Offret ]
          original screenplay


=================== LONDON, UK - Tarkovsky's movies =================

Thursday June 8
The Sacrifice 3.55, 8.30
+ Directed By Andrei Tarkovsky 2.05, 6.40
   [documentary on AT's life & work]

Thursday June 15
Nostalgia 4.30, 8.50
+ Mirror 2.35, 6.55

Thursday June 22
Andrei Rublev 2.15, 7.30
+ Ivan's Childhood 5.45

All films showing in double bills (i.e. two for the price of one!)

They're at the Everyman Cinema, Holly Bush Vale, Hampstead, opposite
Hampstead station on the Northern Line.
> =======================================================================

--
personal email,          mailto:
Hungarian-American list, mailto:  
WWW,                       http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard

----------------------------------------------------------------------
      wrote:
     >
     >Hermes  > wrote:
     >>
     >>After all, a variety of nefarious interest groups have converged 
     >>succesfuly and managed to split Yugoslavia and make a mess out that 
     >>part of Europe. As they say: 'Divide et impera !'
     >
     >Nobody had to stir up anything there.  Collapse of iron fisted 
     >communism did it all by itself.  After all, Yugoslavia was only a 75 
     >year old artificial monstrosity in the first place, an attempt to 
     >join Byzantine orthodoxy with Western enlightenment in a single 
     >country; a concept dead on arrival.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     not quite.  the cause of the tragedy in the former yugoslavia is 
     mainly due to the ex-communist mafia STIRRING UP nationalist hate in 
     croatia, serbia, and bosnia.  i also have quite a few serb/croatian 
     friends and aquaintances that mentioned quite convincingly that serbs, 
     croats, and muslims lived harmoniously together in sarajevo (for 
     instance), and most ordinary people did not care whether their 
     neighbour was of a different ethnicity or religion.  i also personally 
     knew in sweden a few yugoslavs that were of croatian. serbian, and 
     mixed ethnicity, best friends to whom the ethnicity of each other was 
     a non-factor.
     
     there is, of course, a difference in mentality between serbs, croats., 
     and muslims due to the historical developmental circumstances, but it 
     is foolish (and ill-intended) to assert that these differences can 
     inevitably lead to such a bloodshed.  the people have been manipulated 
     and provoked in this tragic debacle.  and the same forces are at work 
     in transylvania - magyar irredentists, vatra/PUNR/etc. ex-communists, 
     etc., but luckily, without the same results (and i personally doubt 
     that a yugoslav-style carnage will ever occur there - not profitable 
     to many "interests").
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >As to 'Divide et impera!", you're off again about 75 years. 
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     and you, danubius, you're just off again.  period.  and not at all 
     surprising.
     
     -cristian

Cristian writes:      
Sorry I was in town only briefly so didn't have time for a decent answer 
earlier.

>      but let's dwell more on the decree issued on july 20th, 1366.
>      
>      during the reign of Louis I, the catholic clergy and the nobles, 
>      perhaps pushed into this direction from the vatican as well, started 
>      taking various measures against the people of the orthodox faith 
>      (mainly romanians), whom they labeled as "schismatics" (ie. not 
>      adhering to the catholic doctrine).  
>      
The interest in the schismatics did not start from the orthodox religion 
but from the Bogumil problems. For soem reason the Bogumils created a near 
hysteria in the Catholic church of those days, perhaps because of the 
rather strange situation in the Catholic church itself. There aer no 
specific pressures against the Orthodox church from Louis who tried to 
continue the policy of controlling the Bosnian area, where the Bogumils 
were entrenched. (If I recall correctly the Bogumils had some intrusion 
into the
conventional Orthodox church itself with equal response from the church 
fathers.) Of course with what is going on in Bosnia, maybe they were right, 
some things are controlled by God and some by the Devil.
I have great difficulty with the indicated persecution in T/S at the time 
because during that time more stone or brick (permanentZZ) churches were 
built in TS than in Wallachia or Moldavia. So even on a comparative basis 
the oppression does not seem to have existed.


However, Transylvania in general was not a favorite place of the Anjou's 
because the resistance continued there the longest against their acceptance 
and many old Hungarian noble families also lost their domains held since 
the beginning of the millenium.

>      on july 20th, 1366, orders were issued for the arrest of all 
>      "schismatic" priests in Cuvin and Claras counties.  another measure, 
>      probably issued the same year, prohibited all people who were not 
>      catholic from holding any noble titles (and hence, the right to land 
>      possessions) in the county of Sebes.  
Well I am familiar with Sebes as a name but not as a county and which 
counties were called "Cuvin" or "Claras" in those days or at any time since 
then? Are we talking about TS? Where did you get this info?

>      
>      the result of these measures was that many romanian nobles converted 
>      to catholicism in order to keep their privileges and, as a result, 
>      were assimilated in the magyar aristocracy.  for example, noble 
>      families such as Corvin, Dragfy, Banfi, Maylath, Mihai Csaki, 
Barcsai, 
>      Kendefi, etc. were of romanian descent and, religiously magyarized. 
As I stated before several members of the newly  ennobled families were 
Orthodox priests so the requirements for conversion assumed by you is not 
correct. Naturally some folks are more Roman than the Romans but that 
happens everywhere.  


>      as a consequence, romanians were deprived of their leaders and the 
>      only ones keeping to the orthodox faith were the peasants, who had 
>      very limited rights within the feudal system, anyway.  
>      
>      however, other nobles such as voievod Bogdan of Maramures decided to 
>      keep his faith and therefore, moved from transylvania to moldova 
with 
>      his court and a large number of servants and loyalists.  a document 
>      issued (under king Louis again) on february 2nd, 1365, states that 
>      Bogdan and his sons "passed over in secret" from Maramures to 
>      Moldavia.  the same event is documented in Chronicon Dubnicense 
>      (edited by Florianus, p.191) as well, and who also gives a hint to 
the 
>      numbers of people involved in that exodus:
>      
>      "Huius [Ludovici] eciam tempore Bogdan voyvoda Vlachorum de 
>      Maramorisio, coadunatis sibi Wolachis eiusdem districtus, in terram 
>      Moldavia clandestine recessit."
>      
>      in english:
>      
>      "in the time of Louis, Bogdan, voievod of the Romanians in 
Maramures, 
>      gathered together the Romanians in those parts and crossed in secret 
>      into Moldavia."  
>      
Yeah, I have a copy of the full document and some subsequent events like he 
left with troops and supporting people to assume the ruling of Moldavia and 
because of the home and international implications Louis was somewhat 
pissed. There are zero records showing that he left for any religious 
reasons. The successors were the Dragffy's who were converted at the time, 
but the succession took place only after Bogdan left. Please do not assume 
that the infighting among the oligarchs of those days was solely rel
gion or nationality based. They did pretty well among same religion same 
nationality also.



>      Also, to these people we can add the ones that follow with Dragos 
from 
>      Maramures as well.  Hence, a large movement of romanians from 
>      Maramures ocurred and is documented.
I gave you half a dozen large incoming migrants for the time period. One 
out does not compensate. There were undoubtably opportunities elsewhere 
also. Please remember that the times just followed one of the major black 
plague epidemics and significant infighting.      
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>      it may be true true that orthodox monasteries were built, but mostly 
>      for the peasants.  since the nobles needed the serfs to work their 
>      land, it was obviously in their interest to keep them there.  it is 
>      safe to assume that if the religious persecutions took such a 
>      dimension (as to forbid the building of any worship centers for the 
>      orthodox peasants), most of them would have probably have left - and 
>      then, it would have been difficult to replace them with magyar and 
>      saxon peasants because the romanian ones were quite numerous.  
>      remember, the orthodox religion was only TOLERATED - and this term 
>      alone does hardly imply equal rights.  
>      
Now you are jumping around the tolerance issue did not come up until over a 
hundred years later. In Louis's time there were no such distinctions or 
terms used. As stated above there were more Orthodox churches built in TS 
than in Wallachia or Moldavia so maybe yoy are claiming a "reason" for the 
inmigration from areas where the peasants, serfs could not worship, i.e.
outside TS.:-)


>      as far as the innacuracy of an "official royal policy towards the 
>      non-catholic", we have the example with good ole' king Louis I and 
his 
>      decree above. :-)

>      
>      and here are some more documented events of romanian out-migration 
>      from transylvania.
>      
>      as early as the XIII-th century, a number of transylvanian romanians 
>      spread out to the north and north-west, specifically to Moravia, 
>      Silesia, and Poland.  specifically, romanian names of places and 
>      persons appear in the 13, 14, and 15th century deeds in the Nitra 
>      region of central Moravia, in the northern Carpathians around the 
>      river Ung, and in the former counties of Szepes (Zips), Zemplen, and 
>      Saros.  documents show 3 great waves of romanian emigration from 
>      northern Hungary and Transylvania to Poland between 1438 and 1570. 
>      
>      the first wave occurred betweeen 1438 and 1478 when 71 settlements 
>      were founded in Poland according to "Romanian laws and customs" 
("jus 
>      et consuetudo Valachorum"). 
>      
>      the second wave took place between 1492 and 1500, where 14 
settlements 
>      were founded in Poland as well.
>      
>      the third wave occurred between 1508 and 1550, when 123 settlements 
>      were founded in central and eastern Galicia, in areas around Sanok, 
>      Przemysl, Sambor, Lwow, Skole, and Halicz.  specifically, the 
romanian 
>      peasants that moved to Galicia came from the comitats of 
>      Bistrita-Nasaud, Maramures, Satmar, Salaj, Bihor, as well as 2 
>      comitats beyond the Tisa, Ugocea and Bereg.
>      
>      This information can be found in:
>      
>       Nistor, I - Rumanische Wanderungen aus Siebenburgen, Bucharest, 
1941, 
>      p. 145.
This is very nice, but where did Nistor get his data from? Could ypu list 
his original references contemporary to the days when it was supposed to 
occur.


      ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>      
>      >>1. the more estimates the better.
>      >>2. estimates should be considered within a certain span of time, 
and 
>      >>   see if they follow a logical pattern, taking historical events 
>> 
>      >>   that may alter this pattern into consideration.
>      >>   3. estimates should be scrutinized, on a case-by-case basis and 
>      >>      in as much as possible, for reliability.
>      > 
>      >So it appears we have two available info contemporary to those days 
>      >the good Voyvode's letter and Verancsics's letter. 
>      
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>      
>      well, i happen to find some more :-)  so let's see what we've got:
>      
>      1. the good and well-informed voievode says "he can count on the 1/3 
>      romanians in transylvania".  well, with the risk of being picky, did 
>      he mean "on the 1/3" or "on a 1/3"? - it's a difference, you 
know.;-)
>      
>      2.  anton verancsics letter:  he mentions that:
>      
>      "transylvania is inhabited by 3 nations:  the magyars, the saxons, 
and 
>      the szeklers, to whom, we have to add the romanians whose number 
>      equals the one of all the three nations combined".  tha is, 50%.
>      
I am not sure which math you used somevbody equal to any of the three comes 
out to 25% and not 50%.


>      IN ADDITION:
>      
>      3.  the italian Giovannandrea Gromo, a colonel in the transylvanian 
>      army, describes that the romanians are numerous and found all over 
the 
>      country.  specifically, he refers to the Banat as "Vallachia 
>      Cisalpina" or "Valachia Citeriore", and distinguished from the 
>      "Vallachia Transalpina" (proper Vallachia).  Therefore, he hints to 
>      the fact that the romanians were majoritary in the Banat.
I would be interested in the year and source for the event. But one has to 
be careful about who calls what because the Byzantin records refer to 
Wallachia south of the Carpathians as Ungrovlachia in 1359 and even the 
Wallacian voyvodes used the title  of Voyvode of Ungrovlachia in their 
church slavic documents (See Vladislav I 1369-74) or Ionnes Cantacusenos' 
history in relation to events in 1323, although written in the 1350s as a 
distinction from Vallachia Magna in Thessaly.)     

>      4.  2 reports by jesuit priests dated 1584, and who mention that the 
>      "province" they are in the process of organizing is a "Provincia 
>      Vallachica", and that the cities of Caransebes and Lugoj "sonno 
della 
>      Vallachia".
>      
As the saying says "it takes more swallows". The area around Caransebes and 
Lugoj were referred to even in Hungarian documents as having a large 
Romanian population. By the way, how did the Jesuits organized Turkish 
occupied areas? Those Turks must have been very tolerant.


>      5.  another italian, a jesuit who lived in transylvania, Antonio 
>      Possevino, mentions in his work titled "Transilvania" that more than 
>      70 villages of the region of Fagaras are exclusively romanian and 
that 
>      they can even be found among szeklers.
Fagaras area was the first mentined even hundreds of years before Possevino 
who was buddy of Istvan Bathory in the 1580s in Alba Iulia as land 
traditionally given as fief to Wallachian Voivodes. So no wonder that there
are Vlachs mentioned for Fagaras. But please check the rest of what he 
wrote also and not only one excerpt. Near contemporary to him there were 
several TS histories written. Maybe comparing all of them one gets a 
balanced idea.

>      6.  a french traveller, J.J. Bongars, who crossed transylvania going 
>      towards Constantinople, mentions that romanian is spoken there 
rather 
>      than hungarian.
>      
Depending when and where he passed thru, it is possible that it was 
correct.

>      7.  towards the middle of the XVIIth century, the transylvanian Jean 
>      Troster and the german Conrad Hiltebrand mention that the romanians, 
>      although they have no political power, outnumber all the other 
>      nationalities there.

I presume that you are refrring to Johann Troester "Das alt- und neue 
teutsche Dacia" Nurnberg 1666, which again should be read in toto and not 
just references to certain regions. I particularly like the Geta>Goth>Saxon
derivation to indicate that the Saxons are the autochonous population. See 
others play that game also. :-) But what Troester wrote is "that beside the 
three nations (Hungarians, Seklers, Saxons) a fourth nation is growing and 
can be found in larger numbers than any of the others in Fogaras and Hunyad 
counties." You will get no disagreement from me on that.

>      SO, here we have a few more estimates.  obviously, it's very 
difficult 
>      to ascertain numbers BUT, following convergence-in-information 
rules, 
>      we can estimate that the romanians were at least half the population 
>      in transylvania in the XVIth century.
>      
>      also, taking into consideration the massive movements of romanians 
I'll consider that when you give references from the time of the events and 
not recent postulations.

However you may want to check out the Roamanian archives foe rthe 
correspondance of Apafi with the Wallachian and Moldavian Voyvodes 
regardingthe repatriation requests for all the serfs who escaped to 
Transylvania, or the reason for it after the last Turkish invasion of TS 
when Apafi wrote to Johann Rottal in 1664"the Partium, Kolozs, Doboka, 
Kraszna, Belso and Kozep Szolnok counties were so depopulated that one can 
go five or six miles and not find a house standing in a village or a human 
alive, because they were taken away, killed or in their poorness died of 
hunger"
So space was available after the Turkish armies moved south based on the 
Peace Treaty of Varad.


to 
>      Moravia, Silesia, and Poland (as shown above) at the end of the XVth 
>      and during the XVIth centuries, a decrease in romanian population in 
>      transylvania (as accounted by verancsics) is also plausible.  
>      
>      as an observation, if we count the good vallachian voievode 
on-the-fly 
>      comment on the transylvanian population, we should AT LEAST consider 
>      the comments from the fellows above that actually LIVED THERE - i 
>      would even consider their accounts more reliable.
OK then lets take the Orthodox church records which indicate 60,500 
families in 1712/1713 and 85550 families in 1733. Petru Dobra lists about 
80,000 Romanian families in 1740.  Again the church records indicate 
151,816 families in 1760/62. Thus the growth of Romanians is significant 
even by Romanian records.      

>      at any rate, according to the first census ever done (i'm not sure, 
>      but i think it was sometime in the XVIIIth century), the romanians 
>      were in clear majority.

No agument there either.

Regards,Jeliko.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
      wrote:
     > 
     >Peter I. Hidas > wrote:
     >
     >>The main thing is, from the point of you of peace in East Central 
     >>Europe, that the government of Hungary today and the political 
     >>parties of Hungary today are not revisinists and do not demand such 
     >>nonsense as the independence of Transylvania, which is obviously the
     >>first step towards the unification of Hungary and Transylvania.
     >
     >Really?  This is like saying that eliminating positive discrimination 
     >equals negative discrimination.  In otherwords, nonsense!
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     huh?......coherence check, por favor! ;-)
     
     what peter says makes perfect sense.  it is not the only ingredient 
     towards a peaceful co-existence, but a vital one nevertheless.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >Actually, I spoke with a few Hungarians from Transylvania myself, who 
     >were equally wary of joining Hungary with being joined with Romania.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     boy, you surely have trouble with the english language today, old man! 
     why don't you take a nap for a few more hours, maybe it'll clear up 
     your jumbled thoughts! ;->  
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >I bet there are also a few Romanians in Transylvania who are not so 
     >fond of their backward cousins in the Regat.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     that may be, but only morons could judge upon such sweeping 
     generalizations.  and demand a secession solely upon these grounds.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >Of course it's needless to say that a majority of Hungarians in the 
     >mother country are also not excited by the prospect of millions of 
     >Romanians incorporated in an enlarged Hungary.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     wow, no kiddin'.....
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >So yes, Transylvania is sufficiently different from both Hungary and 
     >the Regat to qualify for a separate existence, should her residents 
     >so desire.  But I doubt it's realistic at this point in time.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     pleasant dreams, joe.
     
     good night
     
     -cristian