It is pathetic what is going on in this list. Let me say first that
I was truly saddened to see the very angry letter by Janos Kiss. He may
or may not be right about all his information on Kornai.I don't know.

However, it is quite likely that the provocation by Kornai, to abuse
semantics as an excuse to keep badmouthing & jokingly ridiculing Hungarian
Freedom Fight (and hero Freedom Fighters!), was aimed at provoking exactly
the kind of vehement responses - that we now read from Kiss. In order that
*responding* angry guys could be "censored" - while *original provocators*
go unpunished! Not only this "the whole fight started when he fought back"
style strategy will not work, but a dangerous process can easily escalate.
This is the danger of provocation by extremists. They start a snowball
which occasionally becomes impossible to stop. Extremist craziness must be
stemmed as they play with fire. If imbecilles don't stop playing with
matches, their adult friends (if they have any) must slap their dirty
little fingers.

Kornai did not start his filthy provocations as the white altar boy of today
that he pretends to be. Actually, he worded his postings more like a pinko
spoiled brat straight out of Kadarjugend. THIS is how he wrote, back in 92
(a quote from someone else is marked >>, Kornai's own text is marked by >.

Forum #466:
someone objects to Kornai'szabadsagharc-denial:
>>Az itt tartozkodo orosz kiskatonak jo resze nem kerdezte meg
>>vajjon ez most szabadsagharc-e vagy mi a fene, hanem felvettek a harcot
>>a Szuezi csatornat kereso ferdeszemu tamadokkal, akiknek a legi folenye
>>semmi ketseget nem hagyott a harc kimenetelerol. Ok tudtak mi var rajuk.
>>Megis harcoltak. Aki 56-rol okoskodik, az o hosiesseguket gyalazza meg!
Kornai responds
>Nem. Az gyalazza meg a hosiesseguket aki AKKOR nem vette fel a harcot
>de MOST oveluk takarozik. Azok az orosz kiskatonak (barcsak tpbben
>lettek volna!) akik ezt az utat valasztottak, szabadsagharcosok (sot
>gondolom ezert meg kulon kapok) internacionalista szabadsagharcosok
>voltak, akar foglalkoztak a definicio finomsagaival akar nem (nyilvan
>nem foglalkoztak).

English translation from Forum #466:
Objection from someone:
>>Most of Russian footsoldiers in Hungary did not ask if that was
>>Freedom Fight, or what the heck, but fought with the tatar-eyed invaders
>>who looked for Suez-canal in Budapest, whose air superiority left no
>>doubt about the outcome of the fight. They knew what awaited them and
>>they still fought. Wiseguys mouthing 56 defame their heroism!
Kornai:
>No. They defame heroism of those who did not fight AT THAT TIME, but NOW
>they cover themselves with those. Those Russian footsoldiers (I wish
>they were many more!) who chose this path of action, were the Freedom
>Fighters, (moreover, although I will get my share for saying this)
>>*the Russian soldiers were Internationalist Freedom Fighters*, whether
>>they bothered with fine distinctions of the definition or not (rather
>>clear they did not)

Well, Kornai's "original" opinion was that Russian soldiers were the
true (Internationalist!) Freedom Fighters in 1956! Thus, there WAS Freedom
Fight around in 56, but by the Russians. Those of you who don't believe
your eyes, go back and dig up achives of Forum!

Of course, he will deny now that such an opinion is that of a "pinko".
"Pink", the wiseguy will argue, means according to the dictionary "a ship
with a narrow stern". (Look it up!) Which he is clearly not, experts
clearly agree with him. Yes, "pink" also means faint red and he might not
be able to deny *that* meaning, but he will maintain his argument over
thousands of lines that he is definitely not a "ship with a narrow stern"!
Even if he actually was called a ship, his stern is more like a fat
lifesaver, not nearly narrow enough to be called "pink". Bravo.

Frankly, I consider the suggestion that now after insults over injuries
by Kornai it is *responding* Kiss who should be "banned" from this list,
not only a transparent mockery of "justice" but a total denial of the need
of stopping *antihungarian defamation* here in the "Hungary" list and
elsewhere! Yet antihungarian propaganda does exist, and it is the right
to self-defense for Hungarians to fight it.

Personally, I stand by my policy that I would rather take off another
day from work to compile an I think reasonably well documented study
in history to scientifically refute a poorly disguished dirty anti-
hungarian defamation, rather than release uncontrolled venom against
"Kornais"! At the same time, one would like to see restraints used
against the *original* defamators, not against that one who fought
*back* by holding a (however rough) mirror up to the original offender.

It is also rather repulsive when someone who herself (I am quite
certain now, *falsely*) claimed to have been "freedom fighter" hero,
engages in contorted (and frankly, not only disgusting but utterly
ridiculous) verbal exercises to wash "clean" her dirty defamator
internationalist friend. Rather, she could have gently urged Kornai
to sort of offer some lukeworm apology to the memory of fallen hero
Freedom Fighters. And could have advised him to get off the subject
quick, rather than keep harping on the painful subject with tasteless
sexist jokes on how unfortunately few Hungarians died fighting their
war for the independence of Hungary from Russian military occupation.
According to the views that Kornai advocates, apparently it would have
been proper for Ms. Balogh die, too, as it would have technically
strengthened the measure of resistance. While one agrees with Kornai
on occasional technicalities, it is still a defamation of those who
actually died that the number of dead Hungarians weren't large enough
for the peculiar taste of Kornai. And *no* Ms. Balogh, those who died
will never demand apology for their defamation. Just as not a single
Jew who died in Holocaust will ever demand an apology from those who
deny Holocaust. It is the moral responsibility of *decent survivors*
to do so - what apparently she will never understand not being
one of them.

"SZABADSAGHARC ELMARADT [DID NOT TAKE PLACE] and
"THE RUSSIAN SOLDIERS WERE INTERNATIONALIST FREEDOM FIGHTERS" will
stick on Kornai no futher comment required to amplify on such opinions.

"WORD SZABADSAGHARC IS NEVER USED" will stick on Ms. Balogh just as
"1956 WAS A SOCIALIST REVOLUTION" stuck. These are stamps branding her
what she is, at most a shameless pathological liar putting her capacity
into service of ruling liberal party SZDSZ. I hope that she is at least
getting handsomely paid for her services, as it is priceless what she
lost in exchange. For if she ever was anywhere near the Anticommunist
Revolution and Freedom Fight of 1956, in my eyes she destroyed all her
credibility to claim any historical achievements of that glorious
Freedom Fight.

Dear fellow-listmembers,

The following is a forward from another listserv list, the Habsburg
discussion list (Austrian History since 1500), whose home is at the
VM machine at Purdue.

These summaries may be of some interest to some readers of the list.

They are forwarded with the list moderator's permission.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
                   TORTENELMI SZEMLE
        Bulletin of the Institute of History of
            the Hungarian Academy of Science


                                 Correspondent: Laszlo Csorba

1994, #3-4

This double issue of the journal presents studies on various periods of
Hungary's history.

Pal Fodor and Geza David ("Turkish-Hungarian Peace-Negotiations in
1512-14") examine a situation similar to the one that led to the collapse
of the medieval Hungarian Kingdom after the fateful Battle of Mohacs
(1526).  Crowning the efforts of the fall of 1512 and the spring of 1513,
Hungarian diplomats tried to sign an armistice with the sultan; meanwhile
Tamas Bakocz, the archbishop of Esztergom, was authorised by the new Pope
Leo X to organize a crusade against the enemies of Christianity. The
latter plan was paralyzed, however, by the peasant war of 1514 and by
Sultan Selim's detention of the new Hungarian delegate, Barnabas Belay,
and his suite of 104 persons (1513-1519).  For the first time in its
history Hungary was forced to recognize its defenselessness before the
Turks; meanwhile the other great power and "ally", Maximilian's Habsburg
monarchy, did absolutely nothing for her.

The next article ("On the Serbian National Problem") is presented by
Istvan Soos from the papers of one of Hungary's best twentieth-century
historians, Elemer Malyusz.  Among other things, the documents uncovered
by the old master show that, under Joseph II, the Hungarian Chancery was
unable to gain competence in Serb affairs from the Hofkriegsrat and that
the Serbs who had settled in Hungary by the 1790s identified themselves by
their religion rather than their nationality.

Laszlo Tokeczky's review of the political journal of Istvan Tisza's
governing party, the Munkapart ("The Ideas of the Magyar Figyelo,
1911-1918"), argues that moderate conservatives employed some elements of
liberalism and visualized the Habsburg Empire as the best vehicle for
Hungarian nationalism.  [It is interesting that we can see very similar
conservative ideas in the author's political articles published from week
to week on the pages of several journals and newspapers. --LCs]

Margit Balogh's "The History of KALOT, 1935-1946" focuses on a little-
studied aspect of Hungarian Catholicism during the interwar period: the
radicalism concerning the agrarian and social problems of the Catholic
organizations which were able to obtain a certain influence among the
Hungarian peasantry. The KALOT (National Board of the Catholic Agrarian
Journeymen's Associations) was founded by Jesuits who understood the spirit
of the times; although the organization failed in its resistance to the
virus of antisemitism, its struggle against Nazism and for democratic land
reform was an important chapter of the history of Hungary's twentieth century.

Jozsef Kardos' article  calls our attention to the political activity and
ideas of Gyula Andrassy Jr., presenting particularly his last years when, as
the head of the Hungarian legitimist opposition (they considered the
Habsburgs to be the legitimate rulers of Hungary after 1918, too), the
son of the famous prime minister of the Compromise criticized the Istvan
Bethlen government and, in his books, analysed what kinds of traditions,
ideas and realities influenced the fate of Hungary both in early
and modern times.

The correction of a stubborn prejudice was the aim of Judit Banki
("Katherina von Brandenburg in the Principality of Transylvania"), who
convincingly presents the tragedy of the young widow of Prince Gabor
Bethlen. According to the author, Katherina was a victim of the struggle
for power rather than that evil trouble-maker who was depicted by Janos
Kemeny in his famous "Autobiography".

Jozsef Bessenyei welcomes a new publication of medieval sources ("Our
Medieval Letters until 1541") edited by Attila Hegedus and Lajos Papp.
But, by presenting some samples of their work, Bessenyei shows that the
editors, contrary to their assertion, were unable to collect all of those
letters.

Jeno Gyorkei publishes some interesting documents ("Bethlen Documents from
Moscow") that came into being as the ex-prime minister was beginning to
question the wisdom of surrendering himself to the Soviet Red Army.

If anyone is interested in the history of the Institute: there is the
opportunity to read four proposals concerning the research programs of the
Historical Institute of HAS between 1986-1996.


1995/1.

This issue is dedicated to the memory of Gabor Barta (1943-1995) who
worked as a member of the Historical Institute of HAS between 1966-1991.
The editors publish the author's last paper ("A Forgotten Theater of War
1526-1528. Observations on the Early History of the Turkish-Hungarian
Alliance") and, furthermore, the bibliography of the scholar, who was one
of the best specialists of the post-Mohacs and -Szapolyai period of
Hungarian history. Gathering data of the attacks by the Ottomans as the
important elements of political struggle, Barta's viewpoint was the
following: Szapolyai (King Janos I ) and his supporters concluded, partly
from the events of the "Forgotten War", that the total destruction and
annexation of the country could be prevented by an Ottoman-Hungarian
alliance. However, within one or two years it became evident that the
Ottomans were not sufficiently strong to defeat the Habsburgs and the very
event occurred which the Hungarian King had tried to avoid: Hungary was
split into pieces, a front line stretching across the middle of the country,
whose territory became the scene of a war lasting 150 years.

The protagonist of the study of Peter E. Kovacs ("The Campaign of
Maximilian in Hungary"), king of the Romans began not only the
liberation of Austria some months after the death of Matthias Corvinus,
but as he heard about the election of a new king (Wladislaw II), he also
launched a campaign against Hungary.  Although initial successes permitted
him to assert control over Croatia and the major part of Western Hungary,
he could not continue the attack because he was not able to organize the
supply of his army. Thus, as his political situation became unfavorable
in the Holy Roman empire, too, Maximilian had to make peace with
Wladislaw, renewing the peace of Wiener Neustadt of 1463.

The piece by Lajos Izsak ("The Rakosi Regime - Autumn 1948-Summer 1956")
is a chapter of a new textbook for universities, so it has only a short
list of the more important books without notes about archival sources or
any historiographical reflections.  The data and ideas for this attempt at
a synthesis come from three different fields: the old historiography of
the Communist Party, the literature published by the 1956 emigration
abroad, and finally the results of new research beginning after the
collapse of the Kadar Regime.

The researchers of the religious culture of early modern Hungary, Eva
Knapp and Gabor Tuskes, in their Odo Koptik portrait ("Between Baroque and
Enlightenment Odo Koptik: 1629-1755") represent the first steps of a
divergence that began to separate in thinking and behavior the upper
ecclesiastical and secular strata from the lower ones.  Koptik, Abbot of
Domolk (county Vas, Western Hungary) defended Baroque religiosity based
on medieval and late medieval ideals, while the objections raised against
him by Benedek Sajgo, Chief Abbot of Pannonhalma, reflected the
enlightened ecclesiastical mentality.  And what a paradox! - although
Koptik was interned by the order of Maria Theresia in the Austrian Abbey
of Gottweig, the cult of his devotional statue -- a copy of the famous
statue of Mariazell -- survived that period and flourishes even today.

Gyorgy Gyarmati discovered in the Hungarian National Archive a study by
Gusztav Gratz, which came into being as one of those ordered by the
Ministry of Foreign Affairs for the preparation of the future peace
negotiations. Introducing the text ("Gusztav Gratz on the Consequences of
the Fall of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy"), the author summarized the
main steps of an interesting career from the group of the journal
"Twentieth Century" to Istvan Tisza's governing party, from legitimism
to Hungarian-German society.

Finishing this issue, the article written by Lajos Gecsenyi and Istvan
Vida ("The Conversation of the Secretary of the Austrian Embassy in
Budapest with Zoltan Tildy, 13-14 November 1956") presents the statement
of the famous politician of the Smallholders Party in a serious situation:
he still did not criticize Janos Kadar personally, but he pointed out the
complete isolation of his unpopular government.



1995/2.

According to Zsuzsa Teke's thorough research, the onset of the Florentines'
regular business activities in Hungary dates back to the beginning of the
1370s ("Florentine Businessmen in Hungary 1373-1403"). The merchants of
the Red Lilly City needed new markets for their goods (cloth) and Hungary
could satisfy all their requirements, because in consequence of the Anjevin
economic development significant amounts of ready cash had accumulated in
the hands of a number of barons and church dignitaries. After 1397 the
Florentine merchants lost their control of coining and foreign trade; their
posts were transferred to Germans (new favorites of King Sigismund I), but
this change did not prevent the Florentines' participation in Hungary's
economic life.

Although the historical period which provides the framework for Istvan
Hiller's study ("Florentine Diplomacy and Hungary 1604-1648"), is already
the time of Florentine decline, he used the well-organized archive of its
foreign service - of the "granduca di Toscana" - as a gold mine of
Habsburg and Hungarian history. The small state had an extremely refined
diplomatic apparatus, and the Viennese ambassadors wrote perspicacious
reports on the events of the Bocskai war, on the problem of the Turks,
and on Gabor Bethlen's politics and European ambitions.

Anybody familiar with the new tendencies among Hungarian historians knows
that a younger generation working on economic history has grown up in the
last decade; their duty will be to supersede Marxist simplifications and
adopt new western methods and techniques in the elaboration of sources. A
talented member of this group, Bela Tomka, closely examines an old
commonplace of our economic historiography: the problem of the so-called
"Finanzkapital" ("Bank Dominance, Bank Interests, Bank Supervision: The
Industrial Relations of Financial Institutions in Hungary at the Turn of
the Century, 1895-1913"). After Tomka's paper we are forced to discard
our prejudices: he proves that a broad presence of banks in industrial
supervision committees and boards of directors could not have implied bank
dominance, primarily because the presence itself, in most cases, was not
supported by credit or capital relations. On the other hand, industrial
companies, to a larger extent, had only occasional financial contacts
with banks. Consequently, the traditional functions of banks may be
emphasized during industrial development.

There are three more articles in this issue.

Laszlo Veszpremy ("From the Hungarian Flag-car (Caroccio) of the Year 1167
to the Flag-unfurling at Szekesfehervar: The Beginning of the Use of Flag
in War in Hungary") evaluates the presence of the flag-car in the army
and particularly, the exhibition of the banners captured from the enemy in
the cathedral of Fehervar as palpable elements of the small scale
"knightly" culture existing in the Hungarian royal court in the 13th
century.

Timea Berkes ("The Inertia of the Bureaucracy") presents some documents of
1944 Hungary to show that officials tried to carry out the decrees
precisely, following the traditional values of their profession; but in
that period the character of state decrees had changed (Jewish
persecutions by the Sztojay-cabinet), so the officials, merely by carrying
out the decrees, participated in mass murders.

Csaba T. Reisz ("Janos Lipszky in Pest: an Attempt to Publish a Map of
Pest-Buda in 1802") proves that, contrary to other researchers'
assertions, the hussar officer Lipszky was exempt from all other duties
between 1799-1808 and, concentrating on his famous map, he stayed in Pest
during that period, except for short intervals.  Hence, we can consider him
the real author of the excellent opus -- the first modern general map of the
Hungarian Kingdom -- not just the editor.

"Ja1nos", you don't deserve an answer behind that facade, but I take
pity on you. For you the value of what a person says depends on the
Jewishness (or lack thereof) of that person. If the person is Jewish,
the value is zero. But when I said I wasn't Jewish I caused this
terrible cognitive dissonance: could it be that you actually need to
consider the content of what I said?

Surely, inspecting my grandparents' certificate of baptism would be
helpful. Ah, the good old times where such inspections were the law of
the land, and those who didn't pass simply put on a bright yellow star
of David.  For you, "Ja1nos", I'm delighted to put on that star of
David, as delighted as I was to put it on for Csoo1ri.  Antisemitism
always has this effect on me. It was good enough for the king of
Denmark and it's good enough for me.

Now be satisfied, go back to the net/brain where you belong, and chew
on some more old FORUMs, there's a good boy.

Andra1s Kornai

Eva mistakenly thought I had written the following:

>Joe Pannon writes:
>
>>No doubt it was a popular uprising, a revolt, a revolution -- the
>>criteria for applying these terms are met. I'm not happy with
>>"ne1pfelkele1s" because it was a watered-down compromise offered by a
>>self-promoting communist honcho (one who proved his lasting
>>unpopularity through two elections now) but at least it's
>>descriptively correct. However, the juxtaposition "forradalom e1s
>>szabadsa1gharc" does bring 1848-9 into mind, and precisely the sense
>>of "szabadsa1gharc", namely "war of independence" that I objected to
>>all along.  As far as the other sense of "szabadsa1gharc", namely
>>"fight for freedom" is concerned, 1956 was obviously that.

Well, I did not.

Joe Pannon

B. Batkay's agreement with me makes me a bit uncomfortable, because my
increasing hesitation to consider retirement there was not for the same
reason he mentioned.  My reason was more on the macro-economic and
social level than on what I think about one-on-one contacts.

In general, Hungary is getting more expensive than some other places I
could consider, plus the crime situation is getting worse.  But this may
also cause people to be more intravert, less open to others, so in a way
Bela may be right, too.

On the other hand, the openness of people depends a great deal on the
place and situation, too.  I am more used to the small town atmosphere
there, which is friendlier than cities.  Of course this is true not only
for Hungary, but for US as well.

Joe Pannon

Interesting news from VOA:

>Intro:  If a Bosnian peace agreement is initialed in the United
>States, American troops, who would help to enforce it, are likely
>to be sent, temporarily, to staging areas in Hungary.  V-o-A's
>Central European correspondent, Wayne Corey, reports.
>
>Text:  Plans to send 60-thousand NATO troops, including about
>20-thousand American soldiers, to Bosnia-Herzegovina call for
>many of the Americans to go first to Hungary.
>
>American military experts could arrive in Hungary this week to
>make  final preparations to accept a proposal from Budapest to
>allow NATO forces to be deployed on Hungarian territory.
>
>The town of Pecs, in Southern Hungary, is considered a possible
>site for a staging area for American troops en route to
>Bosnia-Herzegovina.

It sure would be an interesting sight to see American GIs in Pecs on my
next visit there.  I am sure they would find a friendlier host there
than in some other countries they have been stationed in the past.
What do you think of the international implication of their presence
in So. Hungary, especially as to Voivodina?  I think it makes the Serbs less
likely to wage an ethnic cleansing there, right under the nose of
Americans.

Joe Pannon

Kornai Andras:

        Ha valaki fasiszta vagy rasiszta, es a tobbseg beleegyezik, akkor mer
kell tekergetni? Rasiszta es kesz. Akki elhisszi Csoori mondokajat az hulye es
en nem fogok agodni rajta!


Karcsi

>Eva mistakenly thought I had written the following:
>
>>Joe Pannon writes:
>>
>>>No doubt it was a popular uprising, a revolt, a revolution -- the
>>>criteria for applying these terms are met. I'm not happy with
>>>"ne1pfelkele1s" because it was a watered-down compromise offered by a
>>>self-promoting communist honcho (one who proved his lasting
>>>unpopularity through two elections now) but at least it's
>>>descriptively correct. However, the juxtaposition "forradalom e1s
>>>szabadsa1gharc" does bring 1848-9 into mind, and precisely the sense
>>>of "szabadsa1gharc", namely "war of independence" that I objected to
>>>all along.  As far as the other sense of "szabadsa1gharc", namely
>>>"fight for freedom" is concerned, 1956 was obviously that.
>
>Well, I did not.
>
>Joe Pannon

Consider the following historical scheme:
1. Between October 23 and 26 Hungary experienced a revolt against the
Stalinist communist regime. The street-fighters had a programme which was
in general supported by the population (e.g. 16 points). The programme
demanded fundamental changes in politics and in the economic make-up of
Hungary. Some aimed at democratic socialism, others wanted democracy as it
existed in 1945 and 1946. In any case these demands were revolutionary and
the street-fighters were therefore revolutionaries. The popular uprising
(nepfelkeles) instantly became a revolution.

2. The communist party and the government of Hungary, both agents of the
Soviet Union, invited the Red Army to prop up the regime and maintain the
de facto colonial status of Hungary. The regime was unable to muster any
domestic support for the armed defence of communism. The freedom fighters,
as the street-fighters turned revolutionaries  soon became known, as well
as scattered units of the Hungarian army confronted the advancing Russian
trooops. As a result during the said period (Oct.23-26) Hungary experienced
not only a revolution but a war of independence. To borrow Bela Kiraly's
expression, the first war between socialist countries broke out.

3. The period between October 26 an November 4 forced the communists to
give up their monopoly of power. Democracy was established. This was,
therefore, still a revolutionary phase of the October events in Hungary.
There were now suggestions for the restoration of capitalism, private
property, although most people still wanted to maintain government
ownership of most companies and property in general. This observation is
justified by the attitude of the workers councils both before and after
November 4.

4. On November 4th the Soviet armed forces re-invaded Budapest, the centre
of revolutionary acitvities and the seat of the new revolutionary coalition
government. In short order the armed defenders of both the revolution and
of the newly gained, and not nominal, de jure, but de facto, independence
were defeated. There was enough resistance that qualify that phase not just
a symbolic war of independence but a short and true one.

5. After November 4 Hungary experienced a dual power phase in its history.
The revolution continued in the factories and occasionally on the streets
and the mountains. Kadar could not consolidate communist and soviet power
in 1956. The workers and the intellectuals attempted to preserve some of
the achievements of the revolution. The revolutionaries were willing to
share power with the communists and temporarily agree to soviet colonial
status for  democratic socialism. Moscow and Kadar were not willing to
share power. Soviet rule was re-established in 1957.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

>Kornai Andras:
>
>        Ha valaki fasiszta vagy rasiszta, es a tobbseg beleegyezik, akkor mer
>kell tekergetni? Rasiszta es kesz. Akki elhisszi Csoori mondokajat az hulye es
>en nem fogok agodni rajta!
>
>
>Karcsi

What statement and/or action make Csoori a fascist? Is he really a racist?
How about providing us with a few quotes?

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

I think it is time to have a discussion on Laszlo Bardossy because I have the
suspicion that whatever was going on in the Forum it was not exactly a
cool-headed, rational dialogue. Such thing was/is impossible on the Forum
because even the more knowledgeable and intelligent participants (and I
immodestly include myself among them) eventually lose all their patience and
are pushed into too extreme a position. I didn't read the discussion on
Bardossy but I can well imagine what it must have been like.

First of all, Bardossy was prime minister for less than a year--between April
3, 1941 and March 7, 1942--replacing Pal Teleki who had committed suicide.
All three or four historical accounts I consulted agree that as far as
Hungary's foreign affairs were concerned Bardossy inherited a fait accompli
as far as Yugoslavia was concerned. Historians are also unanimous in
acquitting him for direct responsibility for declaring war on the Soviet
Union--it was Horthy who made the decision. Bardossy simply announced the
fact to the cabinet. On the other hand, Bardossy did not inform Horthy about
a message he received from the Hungarian ambassador in Moscow which informed
the Hungarian government that the Soviet Union would be favorable inclined
toward Hungary vis a vis Romania, if Hungary did not enter the war at this
junction.

When it comes to ideology, Bardossy was far more of a right-winger than
Horthy or any one else suspected. He did submit the third Jewish law before
Parliament and given the Parliament's composition there was no question that
it would be passed. His true colors came to light when after his dismissal as
prime minister he became the president of the United Christian National
League, an umbrella organization of diverse far-right organizations. In May
1944 he became member of parliament representing his hometown, Szombathely.
Instead of giving up his post in October 1944 when Szalasi's puppet
government was installed by the Germans, he remained a parliamentary delegate
in that nazi body.

As for his trial and death sentence I must say that those trials bore a
suspicious resemblance to the Stalinist trials before and after. Most history
books call them "koncepcios perekre emlekezteto eljarasok." I read part of
the minutes of one of these trials (Endre-Baky-Jaross) and I was horrified at
the procedures. Most of the days the so-called defense lawyer wasn't even
present because no one dared to take up their defense. And even when the
lawyer (the third or the forth who was forced to take up the case) was there,
he said nothing in defense of his clients while the people's judge (nepbiro)
didn't even try to show any impartiality. Today these trials would be
dismissed as illegal. In any case, according to my sources, Bardossy was
condemned to death for declaring war on the Soviet Union in spite of the fact
that it was Horthy's decision and not Bardossy's.

So, Bardossy was not condemned to death because of the third Jewish laws but
because he allegedly declared war on the Soviet Union. Let's see now the
situation with the "third Jewish law," and here I am relying on the
"official" 10-volume history of Hungary published by the Academy's Historical
Institute in the 1970s. A whole chapter is devoted to "a turn toward the
right" in the fall of 1940. Szalasi's Arrow Cross party made great strides,
especially among the miners, and in the fall there was a huge strike
organized by them. Teleki tried to take the wind out of their sail by moving
the government toward more and more to the right--hence the preparation of
the third Jewish laws. Thus, it was the Teleki government which began the
preparation of the law but it fell to the Bardossy government to actually
submit it to parliament.

Eva Balogh

In the (London) Financial Times,Anthony Robinson reports from Budapest:
(I quote from some of his writhing:)
"Few people or governments care so passionately about minority rights as the
Hungarians.This is not because they are unusually sensitive or idealistic.It
stems from the 1920 Treaty of Trianon which turned millions of ethnic Hunga-
rians into powerless minorities in neighbouring states after reducing Austria
and Hungary to mere shadows of their former imperial slendour.
The transfer of Translyvania to Romania and the loss of a swathe of largely
Hungarian populated land all around the borders of the post Trianon
Hungarian state was a bitter blow.....
For 45 years such memories were smothered under the blanket of enforced
"proletarian internationalism".But the re-birth of national sovereignty
after 1989 revived old memories and underlined the need for democratically
elected governments in the region to work out a new modus vivendi.At the
same time, however, the possibility that Hungary and its neighbours would
one day become members of the European Union opened up new perspectives for
a solution to the old ethnic rivalries within a broader Europian framework
of porous frontiers and respect for civil,political and other rights.
For these broader considerations,rather than merely for access to markets
and investment,entry into the EU remains Hungary's top foreign policy
objective." We would like to be part of the first wave of enlargement,but
in the company of as many of our neighbours as possible," says Mr Laszlo
Kovacs,the foreign minister.
When the new government came to power last year it first set out to secure
bilateral "basic treaties" with Slovakia and Romania which recognised exis-
ting frontiers,guaranteed and confied the rights of minorities-and to soothe
the feathers ruffled by Mr Jozsef Antall, Hungary's first non-communist prime
minister.The late Mr Antall declared after 1990 elections that he considered
himself to be spiritually responsible both for the 10m citizens of Hungary
and the 5m people of the ethnic Hungarian diaspora.......
Meanwhile,Budapest is anxiously following the US-brokered peace negotiations
between the warring former Yugoslav states and assessing the likely impact
on Hungary's relations with neighbouring Croatia and Serbia.
Before the war nearly 500.000 ethnic Hungarians lived in villages along the
Danube in Croatia and in the fertile plains of the Serbian province of
Vojvodina.Thousands fled the fighting or slipped across the frontier to
avoid military call-up.But hundreds of thousands still remain,mainly in
Vojvodina where the delicate pre-war ethnic balance is threatened by the
influx of Serb refugees expelled this summer from Krajina regions of Cratia
or displaced by earlier fighting in Croatia and Bosnia.....
The conflicts in former Yugoslavia have cost Hungary an estimated $2bn
in lost sales to its newly impoverished southern neighbours....
(Typed in by Laci Toth)

Dear Colleagues!

I would like to ask you to send fax or telegram message to the president of
Slovakia, Mikhail Kovacs, at Kancellaria Prezidenta Slovenskej Republiky,
Bratislava, Slovakia.
The Fax number is:42-7-498-407 or 42-7-498-938

Your message should respectfully ask the President NOT TO SIGN the language
law, which was passed on the 15th of November by the Slovak Parliament.

It would also be helpful, if you sent an E-Mail copy of your above message to
the chief negotiator of the EC. His E-Mail address is: 

Happy Thanksgiving: Bela Liptak

Andras Kornai on 21 Nov 1995 writes:

>As prime minister Ba1rdossy was responsible for: (a) openly racist
>legislation (harmadik zsido1to2rve1ny) (b) deportation and massacre of
>Jews (Hungarian citizens) at Kamenec-Podolsk (c) massacre of civilians
>(mostly Serbs) at Backa (d) declaring war on the Soviet Union (e)
 
and

>Once again, it's not the declarations of war, its the racist laws and
>the atrocities. How can you conveniently forget the moral abyss to
>

With 20/20 hindsight we know that Bardossy's policies were morally
flawed, ill-advised and in the final analysis disastrous for Hungary.
But, at the same time facts need to be kept straight. Contrary to
Andras Kornai's assertion, those who were handed over to the Germans and
subsequently deported to Kamenec-Podolsk, were not Hungarian citizens
but refugees from Galicia, fascist Slovakia and elsewhere. An
interesting historical footnote is that according to sources cited by
Randolph Braham, Hungarian Jewry distanced itself from the new arrivals,
indeed, did not favor their presence on Hungarian soil.

Although it was within its right, it was wrong for the Hungarian
government to bar refugees from Hungarian soil. Not much differentiates
this though from the Roosevelt administration's refusal to admit a
boatload of refugees, who were forced back from American shores (in
effect deported) many of whom perished at the hand of Germans. The
fact that the Hungarian government earlier, and despite German protests,
aided the escape through Hungary of over 150,000 Polish soldiers, an
estimated 10,000 of whom were Jewish, after the fall of Poland, doesn't
lessen the outrage.

Before anyone throws the first stone, it should be recalled that the
victorious Allies and the neutral countries did not occupy the high
ground of morality. Tens of thousands who fled from the Soviet Union or
were captured and who joined the German side in the war, were handed over to
the Russians after the war, against their will, at the request of
Stalin. All were executed or perished in the Gulag. The Swedes
did the same to the those who fled and sought refuge in Sweden. The
Swiss refused entry, even by the threatened use of arms, to all
refugees, including Jews, many of whom perished as a consequence. (The
famous saying of the Swiss police commissioner, that "Das Boot ist
voll..." meaning that Switzerland has no place for refugees, still
reverberates.)

The massacres of civilians in Bacska which claimed 3309 victims
according to Braham, was in retribution to the murder by partisans of
members of the Hungarian armed forces. But the story doesn't end there.
Kornai fails to mention that the Hungarian government, under Horthy,
brought the perpetrators of the massacre, including 15 high ranking
officers, to justice in 1943. Indeed, it was the first instance of a war
crimes trial during(!) the Second World War.

As far as racist legislation is concerned (Kornai's first point), 
before passing judgement on laws in effect in another country some fifty
years ago, regardless how reprehensible they were, we, as Americans need
to recall our own past. This includes the racist (Jim Crow) laws in our
own country in 1942 as well as the lynchings in the South. The
discriminatory admissions policies at our prestigious universities, in
effect a numerus clausus, was practiced well into the fifties. Members
of certain ethnic groups were barred from some of the professions.
Miscegnation laws were in effect. Residency discrimination was widely
practiced. Undesirables were barred from public places. The list could
be extended. Elsewhere, the situation was not better. Even today, people
of color are refused residency in many "liberal" democracies.

It is hypocritical to judge others by standards which we too were unwilling to
observe.

The "moral abyss", to which Kornai rightly refers, was shared by many in
1942. Looking at Bosnia, things are not much different today.


CSABA K. ZOLTANI

Andras Kornai on 21 Nov 1995 writes:

>As prime minister Ba1rdossy was responsible for: (a) openly racist
>legislation (harmadik zsido1to2rve1ny) (b) deportation and massacre of
>Jews (Hungarian citizens) at Kamenec-Podolsk (c) massacre of civilians
>(mostly Serbs) at Backa (d) declaring war on the Soviet Union (e)

and

>Once again, it's not the declarations of war, its the racist laws and
>the atrocities. How can you conveniently forget the moral abyss to
>

With 20/20 hindsight we know that Bardossy's policies were morally
flawed, ill-advised and in the final analysis disastrous for Hungary.
But, at the same time facts need to be kept straight. Contrary to
Andras Kornai's assertion, those who were handed over to the Germans and
subsequently deported to Kamenec-Podolsk, were not Hungarian citizens
but refugees from Galicia, fascist Slovakia and elsewhere. An
interesting historical footnote is that according to sources cited by
Randolph Braham, Hungarian Jewry distanced itself from the new arrivals,
indeed, did not favor their presence on Hungarian soil.

Although it was within its right, it was wrong for the Hungarian
government to bar refugees from Hungarian soil. Not much differentiates
this though from the Roosevelt administration's refusal to admit a
boatload of refugees, who were forced back from American shores (in
effect deported) many of whom perished at the hand of Germans. The
fact that the Hungarian government earlier, and despite German protests,
aided the escape through Hungary of over 150,000 Polish soldiers, an
estimated 10,000 of whom were Jewish, after the fall of Poland, doesn't
lessen the outrage.

Before anyone throws the first stone, it should be recalled that the
victorious Allies and the neutral countries did not occupy the high
ground of morality. Tens of thousands who fled from the Soviet Union or
were captured and who joined the German side in the war, were handed over to
the Russians after the war, against their will, at the request of
Stalin. All were executed or perished in the Gulag. The Swedes
did the same to the those who fled and sought refuge in Sweden. The
Swiss refused entry, even by the threatened use of arms, to all
refugees, including Jews, many of whom perished as a consequence. (The
famous saying of the Swiss police commissioner, that "Das Boot ist
voll..." meaning that Switzerland has no place for refugees, still
reverberates.)

The massacres of civilians in Bacska which claimed 3309 victims
according to Braham, was in retribution to the murder by partisans of
members of the Hungarian armed forces. But the story doesn't end there.
Kornai fails to mention that the Hungarian government, under Horthy,
brought the perpetrators of the massacre, including 15 high ranking
officers, to justice in 1943. Indeed, it was the first instance of a war
crimes trial during(!) the Second World War.

As far as racist legislation is concerned (Kornai's first point),
before passing judgement on laws in effect in another country some fifty
years ago, regardless how reprehensible they were, we, as Americans need
to recall our own past. This includes the racist (Jim Crow) laws in our
own country in 1942 as well as the lynchings in the South. The
discriminatory admissions policies at our prestigious universities, in
effect a numerus clausus, was practiced well into the fifties. Members
of certain ethnic groups were barred from some of the professions.
Miscegnation laws were in effect. Residency discrimination was widely
practiced. Undesirables were barred from public places. The list could
be extended. Elsewhere, the situation was not better. Even today, people
of color are refused residency in many "liberal" democracies.

It is hypocritical to judge others by standards which we too were unwilling to
observe.

The "moral abyss", to which Kornai rightly refers, was shared by many in
1942. Looking at Bosnia, things are not much different today.


CSABA K. ZOLTANI

Archive-name: hungarian/pointer
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: pointer
Bit-listserv-hungary-archive-name: pointer
Version: 0.90 (beta)
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Last-modified: 1995/11/21
URL: http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer

 This document summarizes network-related resources of Hungarian
interest, which are accessible via email. Some of the most readily
available sources of information can be found in the archives of
periodical information postings to Usenet; these documents are commonly
known as FAQs (from Frequently Asked/Answered Questions). Knowing the
name of the file you can retrieve it by sending email to
 with the command "send
usenet/news.answers/<ARCHIVE-NAME>" in the message (without the quotes,
and with substituting the actual name for <ARCHIVE-NAME> in the pattern
shown above) - for example, to get the document described below, use

 send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq

 To learn more about the RTFM server just send the command "help" to it
- it will provide step-by-step intstructions on how to use the
archives, on retrieving indexes and so on.

 "Hungarian electronic resources FAQ" is a comprehensive collection
dealing with email, FTP, WWW and other Internet tools; its archive name
is 'hungarian-faq' (and the mail-server command to get it is shown in
the example above).
 If you only have direct access to email then, in order to use the
other tools, you'll need the methods described in "Accessing The
Internet By E-Mail" (Archive-name:
internet-services/access-via-email).
 To get a general introduction to Usenet (with some guides to Internet
as well - and explanation of how they are different, too) see "Welcome
to news.newusers.questions!" (Archive-name: news-newusers-intro).
 For a guide to finding someone's e-mail addresses, see the "FAQ: How
to find people's E-mail addresses" (Archive-name: finding-addresses).
Do notice that it's usually inappropriate to send such blanket requests
to mailing lists; the search tools available give much better chance to
locate addresses sought than posted queries in any case!
 An overview of commercial on-line services in Hungary is available by
John Horvath >
(Archive-name: hungarian/comm-providers).

 The hungarian-faq describes several email lists related to Hungary;
only a brief summary is shown here. Please keep in mind that
subscription requests (and other administrative communications) should
be directed to the server address, NOT to the lists themselves.

Server: 
 List:  (the HUNGARY LISTSERV list)

Server: 
 List: HOL (Hungary Online)

Server: 
 List: hungary-report

Server: 
 Lists: OMRI-L (Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest)
        MIDEUR-L (Middle European discussion list)

Server: 
 List: cet-online (Central Europe Today On-Line; email )

Server: 
 List: CERRO-L (Central European Regional Research Organization)

Server: email to  (Hollosi Information Exchange)
 Lists: HIX is a collection of several separate lists, including
  - MOZAIK, a collection of news items in English
  - various discussion forums in Hungarian language
  - SCM and HUNGROUPS, which are email-accessible archives of the Usenet
    newsgroup soc.culture.magyar and the hun.* national hierarchy,
    respectively; to get a directory listing of these archives (as well
    as that of other HIX lists), send email to  with
    "arch" in the 'Subject:' line. Note that the SENDDOC utility takes
    its parameter from the 'Subject:' of the message (unlike many other
    servers, like the ones described previously, which use the body)!

 Note that this document is available on the
 <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>; homepage for the "Hungarian
electronic resources FAQ" at the HIX WWW-server.
 The latter also provides access for the full FAQ via
 'finger ', and for this brief pointer you are
reading via 'finger ' (notice that you
will likely need to redirect the output to a pager or a file in order
to read it). The Usenet archive name for this document is
 hungarian/pointer .

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '>
 NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!

On Wed, 22 Nov 1995, Csaba Zoltani (ASHPC/CTD) wrote:

> With 20/20 hindsight we know that Bardossy's policies were morally >
flawed, ill-advised and in the final analysis disastrous for Hungary. >
But, at the same time facts need to be kept straight. Contrary to > Andras
Kornai's assertion, those who were handed over to the Germans and >
subsequently deported to Kamenec-Podolsk, were not Hungarian citizens >
but refugees from Galicia, fascist Slovakia and elsewhere. An >
interesting historical footnote is that according to sources cited by >
Randolph Braham, Hungarian Jewry distanced itself from the new arrivals, >
indeed, did not favor their presence on Hungarian soil. > Sadly, you are
quite wrong. Though the majority of Jews deported from Hungary were
residents of N. Transylvania and Sub-Carpathia, and not of Trianon
Hungary, these had been Hungarian citizens until after WWI, and were
Hungarian citizens again after the Vienna treaties during WWII, up to the
time they were deported. They had not a thing to do with Galicia (perhaps
their grandparents had migrated from there, but that's not to the point),
and nothing with Slovakia only in that Karpatalja had indeed been part of
Czechoslovakia before it reverted to Hungary. - These people were not only
Hungarian citizens: for the most part, they considered themselves
Hungarians, they spoke, read, and wrote Hungarian, called Hungarian
culture their own: in brief, they _were_ Hungarians, in every legal,
cultural, and, above all, moral sense of the word, even during the time
when, for some 20 years, they had been citizens of another state, along
with some three million other Hungarians. That's _us_ on both sides of
the issue, 'Kain megoelta Aabelt, een megoeltem magam', and 1944 was a
year of fratricide. To look at the question any other way will never lead
beyond the eternally pointless cycle or recriminations, rationalizations,
hatred and self-hatred. It's time to bring the Jewish Hungarians home,
spiritually, and get on with life.

Louis Elteto

In article >, 
writes ...
>
>they would be very old by now if not dead of natural couses therefore they
are not likely to beat their chest as to their patriatism
--
 Telematrix, Perth, Western Australia

In article >,
 writes ...
>
>>
>> try transdanubia
>Darren Purcell
>Department of Geography
>Florida State University

--
 Telematrix, Perth, Western Australia

 (John Kershaw) wrote:

>Am interested in hearing from Americans living in Hungary.  Am
>thinking about retiring in Hungary, or at least having an extended
>stay in Hungary

I'm a 22 year old American college student and I lived in Hungary for
two years.  I retunred in March of this year and I will be returning
in April.

I learned to speak Hungarian.  I love the language, the people and the
country.  It is an incredible place.

Most likely, I could give you whatever information you may need.  Let
me know if I can help of what information you would like.

 (John Kershaw) wrote:
>
> >Am interested in hearing from Americans living in Hungary.  Am
> >thinking about retiring in Hungary, or at least having an extended
> >stay.

I'm a 38-year-old Hungarian journalist currently staying in Maryland. I
work with an English-language newspaper in Budapest, and know quite a
number of Americans who live there. I'd be pleased to help in any way I
can. Let me know what I can do using my private address.

Tibor Szendrei
University of Maryland
>

I gave up on you guys quite a while ago. When your paranoia reached
its zenith. Or so I thought. When you compared an attorney-pensioner
in Hodmezovasarhely to "Hitler"!

Boy, was I wrong! I have yet to see a loonier bunch. You guys are
breaking all records on conspiracy theories and sheer paranoia.
Drive one another up the wall by seeing a 10-feet tall demon behind
every tree. That you created by your hysteria, giving a new
definition to demonization.

Get real and grow up. "The torch has been passed". There is more to
Hungarians than Andras Pellionisz. There must be a whole Hungarian
Nation after all. Close to ten million can't be wrong...

Also, quit slandering those not willing to be a party to your daily
dose of paranoid schizophrenia. Will you please?  Hearing voices of
Pellionisz yet not taking for real those who should better be?!
With any sense of realism left, you could be scared wittless of
immense crowds in Budapest. And I am not talking about a few Szucs
Andris's here and there. But streets jammed with demonstrators.
The two kind fellas in Hodmezovasarhely and/or San Francisco are
the least of your headaches.

One more thing. MY writings are signed like this;
"Pellionisz"

Have fun! But don't go crazy.

Eva's description of Bardossy's role is pretty much how I understood it.
>From that I still don't see a compelling reason to brand Bardossy a
war criminal.  Do you, Eva?  Obviously, Bardossy was no Kallay, but war
criminal?

BTW, Kamenetsk-Podolsk ...
Was it really Hungarians soldiers doing the massacre?  If I recall it was
not them, though the victims were the illegal alien Jews the Hungarian
authorities deported back to Galicia.  I don't see how this should count
against Bardossy unless it can be proven that the massacre was in line
with the government's policy.  Have you done any research on this
particular episode, Eva?

Thanks,
Joe Pannon

M>
 M> KADARKA, MY DOG....Post3
 M>
 M> Anyway, the Greek chorus left in a huff.....left
 M> me alone to
 M> tragedy.   I realized
 M> slowly that many Hungarians care more meticulously
 M> about the dead then
 M> the living.  They
 M> even have an All Soul's Day in early November
 M> when everyone goes out
 M> to the cemetary
 M> with plastic floWers that Won't WILT and Which
 M> no one Will steal and
 M> relatives check up
 M> on each other afterWard to make sure that
 M> eWeryone had been obserWant
 M> of the dead.
 M> Did you see my blue pansies,
 M> Juci will ask of my uncle's grave, and
 M> I will not know if a
 M> catastrophic YES.....or a NO.... will give
 M> away my indignity of having
 M> passed up the ritual
 M> by which she had actually brought him........
 M> tulips.
 M> Well, anyway, I refused to change his name
 M> to Rexi, which had
 M> been suggested as a
 M> good name for a dog and which means Little
 M> King, and Right now his
 M> Royal majesty is
 M> giving me a Right Royal  and eageR  look --its
 M> time foRRR .....his
 M> constitutional.  AND, by
 M> God, HERE WE GO AGAIN --Agi, from the mid-west,
 M> DISAGREES.  Again she
 M> disagrees.  She claims, in the mid-west dogs
 M> simply....well they....DO
 M> THEIR BUSINESS.
 M> They must forego constitutional rights.  It's
 M> actually a good phrase
 M> though, I must
 M> admit....How's business?  Dogs may not have
 M> Constitutional rights in
 M> the midwest but dogs
 M> would make good businessmen, I think.  And
 M> I don't mean just in the
 M> mid-west. Simply
 M> going about doing their business.  Being friendly.
 M>  Not bothering
 M> anyone.  In their own
 M> benign, dog-like variety of capitalism......
 M> an ability to sniff out
 M> problems....... they would
 M> even make good CEO's.  And so, dear Gitta,
 M> Kadar's business
 M> aspirations call --we must be
 M> out again.  Until next time. Your loving,
 M> adoptive son, Laci.
 M>
 M> LPO
 M>
 M> --- MOMS 3.0
 M>
 M>

-------------------- End of quoted message --------------------



--- MOMS 3.0