Hungary lost land because it got cought on the wrong side in both world wars.
I know there were kinda stuck with the Austrians, but the bet on the wrong team
in WWII.  Win some lose some.

I paid a visit to my favorite spirits shop, and loaded up on

some Hungarian reds of the vinous sort, and now I'd like to

ask the list to share any "recipes" for hot drinks made with

wine--this does qualify as a Hungarian holiday tradition, yes?

(Not to mention as a cure for a bad cold; if I'm not mistaken a

hot wine drink is part of the `two-hat cure'.)


Thanks in advance,

--Greg

Date sent:  14-DEC-1994 16:21:44
>
>Thomas Breed writes:
>
>> I never claimed the
>> political spectrum forms a line; I imagine it as a circle.
>
>Let me trot out the old, tired bromide that it is a line,
>just that instead of Left and Right, the labels ought to be
>"collectivist" and "individualist".
>
>--Greg

It's a very clever idea.  Where would YOU place Nazis and Fascists on your
line?  If you're familiar with American politics, then how about the recent
growth among "conservative" anarchists (Libertarians being a less extreme
form) in comparis"radical" anarchists, both of whom believe the state is te
is inherently evil?  Marx's withering away of the state?
Is the collectivist side conservative or liberal?  How about the
individualist side?  Or are you rejecting the labels "conservative" and
"liberal," in which case our two methods of measuring can coexist?

I think an underlying problem when describing governments with handy tags
like "conservative" and "liberal" is that governments are too complex
institutions to sum up with a single point on a line.  Maybe a graph would
work better.  But this is getting so theoritical, it probably has no place
on this list.
                        Auf Wiedertippen! (or something like that)

                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"

Date sent:  14-DEC-1994 16:36:56
>
>Sandor Lengyel writes:
>
>> Of course the english and the french are anti german and pro serbian.
>> Old sentiments die hard.
>
>Not to mention the old Britain-France-Russia vs. Germany alliance...
>
>
>--Greg

Conspiracy, anyone?  There is other possibilities that do not involve
either a love for Serbia or a hatred for Germany.  Maybe the West dislikes
the Bosnians.  Considering the degree of anti-Muslim prejudice floating
around, this probably is playing a role.  If Catholic or Protestant boys
and girls were being raped and shot and kicked around, then the West might
feel a little more inclined to interfere.  Another factor might be
prejudice against peoples in the Balkans.  Anyone who's seen some of the
wonderfell (intentional misspelling) graffitti skinheads have been
plastering on walls from Paris to Prague knows exactly what they think of
Slavs, Greeks, etc.  If Westerners despise Yugoslavs, then they would be
little interested in actually risking lives for any side.  Of course, a
final possibility is one voiced a long time ago by Otto von Bismarck (I
might be about to absolutely misquote this, so hang on!), who indicated
that the Balkans were not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian musketeer.
No prejudice, no conspiracies.  Just a lack of interest.
        One quick question:  why is this an ethnic conflict if the most
notable differences between the warring states are religious?

I do find the conspiracy theories much more entertaining!

                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"

Zoli ) wrote:
: On Wed, 14 Dec 1994, KENNETH NYIRADY wrote:

: >            Dear colleagues on the list:  what is the best way to send
: >             money to relatives in Hungary?  (REST DELETED)    Ken
                Nyirady    

: Any way you would send it to Vienna, or Los Angeles.  A bank transfer
: takes about 2 days (that's my experience , but the other way, from there
: to the States)..... (REST DELETED)

: Zoli )
> =============================================================================

Forgive me if I sound naive, but isn't the BEST way to send money to
Hungary, taking it there yourself?  Things may have changed somewhat over
the years,however, isn't the Forint less valued than the Dollar?  Presumably,
if one sends money in dollars, the recipient in Hungary will receive it
in Forints.  Forints cannot be converted easily (if att all) into VALUTA.
One must realize that I am making an assumption here: that the recipient
can only cash in the moneys as Forints rather than receiving the sum  as
Dollars or Deutsche Marks.  Correct me if I am wrong.  I realize however,
that those who receive money are happier to have Forints than nothing at all.

> Felado : 
> 1. Should there not be an attempt to find a better alternative to
>    capitalism? What is the argument that there cannot be a better
>    solution? There must be, because otherwise we are doomed, the
>    human civilization on Earth is universally based on this system,
>    and the human condition is getting worse every year.
I strongly disagree with the statement that the human condition is getting
worse every year -- compare life now to what it was 50, 100, 150 years ago
and you see that there has been considerable progress, not only in material
wealth but also in literacy, in democracy, even in life expectancy (despite
recent setbacks in Hungary and the region). That said, I actually see no
compelling argument that there *cannot be* a better solution than capitalism
-- perhaps there can be. The only argument that I see is not a logical but a
practical one: several other things have been tried and none of them seem to
work nearly as well.

> 3. I think you mean the implementation of socialism based on Marxist
>    philosophy, this  h a s    n o t    h a p p e n n e d  yet,
>    because Marx defined socialism to be based on the  M O S T democratic
>    structures in history   -   NOT TRIED!!!!!!  Worth looking into!!!!
When I grew up this used to be the primary argument of the "scientific
socialism" teachers, namely that the "existing socialism" is but a faint
echo of the real thing (communism) which will be soooo wonderful it's
really worth putting up with all the hardship of building toward it. It
seems quite unclear why this would be worth looking into -- there is
nothing in the original writings of Marx or the subsequent Lenin-Stalin-Mao
edifice that would lead me to believe that communism is a sustainable
system. The major premise "to all according to their needs" is utopian
as long as *at least one* resource is scarce. If all resources would be
plentiful, now that would be the Garden of Eden, and the whole issue
would be moot. The question is what you do while you are not in the
Garden of Eden but in this Vale of Tears.

>    Don't just shoot me down - tell me where my argument is wrong!!
What is the argument? That Marxism, in it's pure, ideal form, would be
better than capitalism? This is hard to deny, but a utopia can always be
made nice and shining, so there is no genuine comparison. If you would turn
to existing systems, maybe an argument can be made in favor of a socialistic
flavor of capitalism (Scandinavia, Benelux states) as opposed to a "dog eat
dog" kind of capitalism (which the US never quite managed to be, but came
close at times). Try to make that argument especially in relation to Hungary
(which has a safety net and social services completely out of proportion to
its national product) if you think you can! Me, I can hardly wait for Gyula
Horn to show some strength and break the goddamn unions, starting with MA1V.
Guess I shouldn't hold my breath...

Andra1s Kornai

Why do my letters get printed out in this magazine so badly?

        Words down one side of the screen cannot make them easier to read
or understand. What could I be doing wrong?


        Karcsi

>  Non-profit firms?
> >You mean cooperatives run by the workers? I buy that...
> >
> --Even Lenin gave up on that in the 1920s.  The workers couldn't agree
> on how to run the factories and didn't have the expertise.  My father,
> God rest his soul, worked on the assembly line in a tractor factory.  He
> knew his job, but he'd have been hard put to have had to make any
> management decisions.  All he wanted was decent pay, good working
> conditions, and a workable pension system.  He got that, and was
> satisfied.  He and his mates had no wish to put in the long hours
> that management demands.

Lenin new you cannot force people into coops without them first
realising for themselves any advantage. Stalin started the forced
coop -isation.
 Considering the hostile environment they are still around
in the UK, France and Italy, thank you very much. The agricultural
ones did not do that bad in Hungary especially if you take into account
the burocratic crap they had to struggle with.
The idea is a well informed and educated workforce. There is much
less call for unskilled jobs now than in your father's time.
That's why you have your drug/crime centres, the so called education
system still turning out  surplus "factory fodder".
It is a fallacy that your manager is doing so much more. Just that if
he makes mistakes, there is more lost and there is a cover-up...
(First-hand experiences follow if you are interested), same with lawers,
accountants, physicists they have their special lingo to make you think
they know something you cannot get into... Long hours my arse! Long
lunchbreaks and those hard working conferences. oops, I upset every academic
on the list now...  If it is such a burden - why not share it?

>                                       In fact, I, myself, as a youth worked
> >> as a butcher's helper, dishwasher, and greasemonkey in various garages.
> >
> >You mean, you left and didn't stick to it??? Good honest work to
> >better yourself!! What an opportunity!!!
>
> --Did you deliberately miss the point?  The way one betters himself
> or herself is by working up to a better job.  No one would ever intend
> to remain a butcher's helper until retirement.

Without being "in the know", encouragement; not categorised from childhood
as a failure, who only good for such and such, lacking basic literacy
the chance is minimal. Yes, nobody intends to stay a butcher's helper,
but you have pressure on you to by the things advertised just the same,
with the basic idea that if you can't afford it, you are not part of the
big happy, normal way of life. You do crime/drugs as the only escape.

>
> It's useless to argue with you, but it's still fun.  I note that
> unemployment is down in Britain and the U.S.

I don't know about the US, but here under the years of Thatcher the
way to collect the data was changed about 20 times. If you count in again
the 16-18 year olds, who are not in education, wives/husbands who cannot
claim any benefit, because somebody is in the family working, etc etc,
you'll end up with the same - or worse figures.

> Most people are not
> making arms.  You paint an interesting picture of the U.S.  Rich
> people living in armed camps, poor people dying in the streets, and
> arms factories humming away, grinding out weapons automatically.

With your enthusiastic help - we are getting there...

> Maybe we on this list could pass the hat and gather enough money
> for you to spend a couple of weeks here.  On the other hand, then
> you wouldn't be as much fun to communicate with.
>
Hear, hear!!  Try me.

>  What I conclude isthat there must be a lot of illegal business transactions
>  going on that are, obviously,recorded or taxed; or that those in power
>  positions are just plainly fraudulent (or is this regarded as normal practic
e
>  in capitalism?!)
>

You put your finger on it! "Eredeti tokefelhalmozas"
It happened so long ago here, that I've forgottan the English name
for it...

>
> > I never claimed the
> > political spectrum forms a line; I imagine it as a circle.
>

What about a spiral? Shouldn't there be something new/improved
coming up at times?

If it is a repeat such as:
  free market/keynesist/nationalist/fascist/islam capitalism,
burocratic/totalitarian/nationalist/islam "existed" socialism, it doesn't
matter what the name    - did   not   work, old and rightwing as far
as I'm concerned. (And I am.)
If you have anything new to say: that's left wing. Non existent much,
so why are you getting so upset?

"Marx is dead, Lenin is dead and I don't feel so good lately..."
 (graffiti)

On Thu, 15 Dec 1994, Charles Gal wrote:

>
> Forgive me if I sound naive, but isn't the BEST way to send money to
> Hungary, taking it there yourself?

Obviously it is always the best way to take it yourself, but it's not
always feasible or cost effective :))  When you wanna send money to your
kids who are in college in another state, do you take it there yourself?

  Things may have changed somewhat over
> the years,however, isn't the Forint less valued than the Dollar?

What do you mean by less valued?  To my understanding you can rarely pay
in dollars in Hungarian grocery stores, and if that's what you need money
for then you want Forints not dollars.

  Presumably,
> if one sends money in dollars, the recipient in Hungary will receive it
> in Forints.  Forints cannot be converted easily (if att all) into VALUTA.
> One must realize that I am making an assumption here: that the recipient
> can only cash in the moneys as Forints rather than receiving the sum  as
> Dollars or Deutsche Marks.  Correct me if I am wrong.

You can cash dollar chaecks for dollars as well.  You  do not have to
convert it if you don;t want to.  But then again, it's hard to use US
Dollars in Hungary, not many merchants accept it.  In fact it is illegal
to sell any merchandise or services within the territory of Hungary for
any other currency, but the Forint.


Zoli )

> >
> --I grew up pretty poor, actually.  In 1940, my father quit his job and
> went to work at Caterpillar Tractor Co. in Peoria.  I am working class,
> plain and simple.  When I said I wanted to go to college, my father gave
> me a handshake and said, "Good luck.  I hope you make it.  I wish I could
> help, but you know how it is."  I did know and have never resented the
> work I did.  I am a former University professor who has taught with
> educated middle-class radicals for years.  They do not like dirty
> people.  One of my favorite liberals offers me Kleenex whenever she
> sees me sweat.  Get off my back, please, I do come from poor dirt-
> farmer stock.

I think you do not represent the views of the present working class,
or any sympathy with it. That is the point. You sold out comrade.
Your beloved sister.

>
> >
> >I don't get it.  What does Eva mean by "politically not so correct" and
> >what do you mean by your (apparently sarcastic) reply?
> >

By the opinion of the loud (vocal?) majority on this list, if you
admit that you had any good time in Hungary before the collapse
of the so called socialist regime, or that it had a few achievements,
you are automatically an agent of that past regime...

> I strongly disagree with the statement that the human condition is getting
> worse every year -- compare life now to what it was 50, 100, 150 years ago
> and you see that there has been considerable progress, not only in material
> wealth but also in literacy, in democracy, even in life expectancy (despite
> recent setbacks in Hungary and the region). That said, I actually see no
> compelling argument that there *cannot be* a better solution than capitalism
> -- perhaps there can be. The only argument that I see is not a logical but a
> practical one: several other things have been tried and none of them seem to
> work nearly as well.
>
I have the feeling, that if you count Africa, South America, the poor
of Asia, USA, things did not improve lately, if at all in any of the
items you mentions. Yes, wealth is created by an incredible scale
even by countries like India - that is why I think, that a sensible
system of redistibrution would not take away the wealth of the
paranoid middle class, but would improve the poor. In the developed
countries industrial work is done by less than 30, agricultural
less than 5% (or something like that) of the population, and there is
still overproduction/vastly underused production/technlogical capacity
oops have to go

Can anybody please tell me the origins of the Hungarian Christmas carol
"Angels from Heaven" Author, city, time. Also where I might find it in the
U.S. Thanks!

>>I do not condone any Romanian racism/human rights violation.
>>The problem is, that they are able to quote similar hate
>>sentiments - if not actions hopefully - from the Hungarian side.

I met romanians, and I liked them. I do not hate them, but I hate what, some
of them do to the hungarian minority.

I do not think that we can compare, either in action or in sentiments to them a
t
this moment. They will be always able to quote hate sentiments, that
does not bother me, so long as we try to behave better than they do.

>>Should there not be an attempt to find a better alternative to
>>capitalism?

Which one. US, Canadian, Swedish etc.
There is no pure capitalism. Some of the systems are closer to socialism than
to capitalism.

>>structures in history   -   NOT TRIED!!!!!!  Worth looking into!!!!
>>Don't just shoot me down - tell me where my argument is wrong!!

Economically the early christians were very close to pure communism, but
greed took it over.

Eve! Do not worry to much about the social systems. The best, hopefully
will develop not by social engineering of some intelectuals, but by evolution.

It probably will have the right amount of socialism and capitalism.

Sandor

Mr.Andras Pellionisz has expressed in private letters
his concerns about my interpretation of his article.
He said, my translation had badly distorted the meaning of
his words. Since he does not seem to have access to USENET,
instead of getting into a probably long and fruitless
argument, for those of you, Hungarian speaking readers, with
no access to HIX FORUM, I repost his article here, without
my translation and somewhat sarcastic comments. You can decide
about the correctness  of my translation.
Regards,
Gotthard


> =======================================================
> Felado : Pellionisz Andras
> E-mail : 
> Temakor: Nyiregyhazai level betelepitesrol ( 76 sor )
> Idopont: Mon Dec 12 13:00:13 EST 1994 FORUM #1474
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> A keleti menekultek betelepitese maris folyik, ld. az alabbi
> kozlest egy hazai hetilapbol, az ilyen ugyekben egyik leghitelesebb
> forras, az "Uj Elet" cikke nyoman:
> ________
> "Varosunkban most kozel 100 volt ormeny es gruz izraeli
> allampolgar telepedett le, akik hiteletuk zavartalan fenntartasa
> erdekeben segitsegunket igenylik. Az oszi unnepeket mar kozosen
> tartottuk"-nyilatkozta Zober Erno, a nyiregyhazi hitkozseg elnoke az
> Uj Elet november 1-jai szamaban. (Nyiregyhazan is megujult a
> zsinagoga).
>         Dicseretes egyutterzesre vall ez a segitsegnyujtas, elotte
> le a kalappal vagy mas fejfedovel is.  Csupan egyetlen kerdesre
> nem kapott (talan nem is kert es vart) valaszt a jolertesult
> (galjuli): a "kozel 100 volt ormeny es gruz izraeli allampolgar"
> mellett hany alberletben tengodo, otthontalan, hajlektalan
> magyar allampolgar koltozhetett uj otthonba, meg az "oszi unnepek"
> elott a nyirsegi varosban?"
> _______
>
> Eddig a hazai hetilap szoszerinti idezete. E forum-beli masodkozles
> celja egyetlenegy. Ramutatni (talan meg idejeben) arra, hogy a
> "Honfoglalas" elnevezesu, betelepuloknek szant oroklakasok, a fenti
> dicseretes segitokeszseg, s hasonlo igyekezetek sulyos arnyoldallal is
> rendelkeznek. Emlekezhetunk, hogy meg a dusgazdag Nemetorszag
> egyes (atmenetileg) eletszinvonalcsokkenessel sujtott reszein
> is milyen veres atrocitasok tortentek pl. torok betelepulok
> ellen. Vegul Nemetorszagnak meg alkotmanymodositas aran is
> vissza kellett fognia a betelepulest ha tarsadalmi robbanast
> el akart kerulni. A magyarsag elnyomorodasa a nemethez kepest
> hihetetlenul sulyosabb, a tarsadalom stabilitasat (szerintem)
> egy lapon sem lehet emliteni a nemetevel. Ebbol kovetkezik, hogy
> Magyarorszagon egy sokkalta eletveszelyesebb feszultseg van
> ebredoben,  amit meg allamferfi kvalitasokkal nem rendelkezo
> politikus perc-emberkeknek is lehetetlen nem latni.
>
> Ugyanakkor az amerikai magyar emigracio Thanksgiving-kor
> Cleveland-ban tartott gyulesen felfedesre kerult egy hir, mely szerint
> Horn maris alairt (az orszaggyules mindennemu "felesleges"
> megkerdezese nelkul, ad notam "Vilagkiallitas-felmondas") egy kb.
> negyedmillios volt Szovjetunio-beli menekult-kontingens
> Magyarorszagi letelepiteserol szolo egyezmenyt. A hir szerint Horn-t
> az SZDSZ mindaddig hatalmon hagyja amig Horn ezt az "egyezmenyt"
> betartja, de ha barmely pillanatban nem e kotelezettseg szerint tesz,
> az SZDSZ buktatja Hornekat.  A maris dokumentalt (ld. fennt)
> menekult-szivargas egy ilyen egyezmenyen alapulhat.
>
> Ha viszont egy ilyen "uzlet" (kicsiben) mar "mukodik", a beetetest
> kovetoen nagyobb tranzakciok szoktak kovetkezni. Mi lesz pl. ha
> mondjuk Hornek olyan ajanlatot kapnak, hogy mondjuk masfel evi
> adossagtorlesztest ($6 Millardot) "elengednek" Magyarorszagnak ugy
> hogy azt az osszeget nem "kiviszik" az orszagbol, hanem mondjuk
> hatszazezer keleti menekult Magyarorszagon valo letelepitesere
> (lakasokhoz, vagyonhoz, befolyasos allasokhoz valo juttatasra)
> forditja M.o.   Mi lesz ha mondjuk avval (is) "ervelnek", hogy a
> magyarok megoltek hatszazezret kozuluk, s most "elengedik" a
> karteritest, ha M.o. befogad hatszazezret, s az ugyancsak "elengedett"
> hatmilliardos visszafizetes helyett ezeket a jovevenyeket
> (egyenenkent tizezer dollaros beruhazassal!) M.o.-i "uj
> internacionalista burzsoa vezeto reteg"-eve megteszik?
>
> Ne feledjuk el, hogy a kadari "nepi" kommunistak "beetetese" is igen
> kicsiben kezdodott (parmillios nyugati "kolcson" felvetelevel a
> hetvenes evekben) -- majd ezt vaslogikaval kovette az eszkalacio a
> mostani kb. otven-hetvenot milliardos (kulso plusz belso) tokeletes
> (kifizethetetlen) eladosodasig.
>
> Ket egyszeru kerdes:
>
> (1) Hornek (kommunista modon) pont ugy beleegyeznek-e a haza
> fenti modu kiarusitasaba mint ahogy Kun Belaek uralma a Trianoni
> legrosszabb orszagveszteshez vezetett?
>
> (2) Ha Hornek megindulnak (ugy tunik maris megindultak) ezen az
> uton, vajon melyik fazisban, es a haza milyen merteku vesztese utan
> fog a magyar haza jogos onvedelme szerint a magyar nemzet vegul is
> cselekedni?
>
> =======================================================

THomas Breed wrote:
>Conspiracy, anyone?  There is other possibilities that do not involve
>either a love for Serbia or a hatred for Germany.  Maybe the West dislikes
>the Bosnians.  Considering the degree of anti-Muslim prejudice floating
>around, this probably is playing a role.

This has been my opinion all along and I have voiced it a couple of times
too.

The French appear to have a totally irrational attitude towards Islam,
and since moralistic considerations do not play a large role in French
foreign policy, even Serbian nazism is preferred to the Bosnian Muslims.

It is a tragic irony that in their effort to prevent a strong Muslim
presence in South-Central Europe, the French are forcing the tradionally
bacon-eating, sljivovica-drinking Muslims of Bosnia to discover their
more fundamentalist Islamic roots as this is the only source of support.
Also, instead of a country where all religions intermingled and tolerance
reigned, the compressed and disenfranchised Muslim entity will be filled
with refugees little more to lose and baying for revenge.

As the French wield a disproportionate influence over EU foreign policies,
their views on Bosnia prevail in the EU.

The Hungarian relevance: we too are oddballs, although not to the extent
of the Muslims.  French preference is for the countries of the late Little
Entente over Hungary.  This can only be changed by becoming economically
intertwined with the EU more than the neighbours, so that EU economic
lobbyists would push Hungarian interests over those of others.

George Antony

Greg Grouse wrote:
>I paid a visit to my favorite spirits shop, and loaded up on
>some Hungarian reds of the vinous sort, and now I'd like to
>ask the list to share any "recipes" for hot drinks made with
>wine

The bottled stuff is probably too good for mixing, use
bulk Algerian red, fermented sultana juice from a square
box, or somesuch instead.

>--this does qualify as a Hungarian holiday tradition, yes?

Not uniquely Hungarian, but a tradition nontheless.

>(Not to mention as a cure for a bad cold; if I'm not mistaken a
>hot wine drink is part of the `two-hat cure'.)

Just 'hat cure', that is, go to bed, put a hat at your feet and
drink until you see two hats.  A variant is the 'brush cure':
single piece of hair at your feet and drink until you see a
brush.  Dunno, I must be getting old or something, the memories
of hangovers tend to put a dampener on these things.

As for the recipe:

Get some plonk, add the same amount of water (or anywhere between
50 and 0 per cent, depending on personal preference for hangovers),
put cinnamon sticks, whole cloves and black peppercorns into it
(the latter is a family variation to the theme: use cautiously or
leave out), skin half a lemon and/or orange with a potato peeler
and drop the peel in, sweeten with honey/brown sugar/golden syrup
to taste.  Warm until it is starting to simmer (NB the boiling
point of alcohol is below that of water!), strain, serve.

Do not use ground spices as they cannot be removed and leave
an unsightly brown sludge.  On the other hand, microwave ovens are
just fine.

Caution: the spicy sweetness makes this concoction very drinkable
and thus potentially dangerous.

George Antony

On Thu, 15 Dec 1994 12:46:15 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>
>Lenin new you cannot force people into coops without them first
>realising for themselves any advantage. Stalin started the forced
>coop -isation.

--That was the point, Sister Eva.  My father and his mates had other
things to do and weren't interested in management.

> Considering the hostile environment they are still around
>in the UK, France and Italy, thank you very much.

--Oh, we have them here, too.  Mostly agricultural co-ops, but
some have to do with electric power and vegetable growing.  They are
quite common in parts of the country.  They work quite well.

 The agricultural
>ones did not do that bad in Hungary especially if you take into account
>the burocratic crap they had to struggle with.

--The bureaucratic crap is the problem.  One of my Hungarian informants
argued that the present problem in Hungary is that there is a lot of
controversy over who owns the land.  Some old feudal landowners have
apparently raised historic claims.

>The idea is a well informed and educated workforce.

--And our radicals have turned against educating people with skills
and knowledge, and are primarily concerned with producing revolutionaries.
European socialism is more sophisticated, as I tried to explain to you.
Even Tony Blair has come out against bad teachers, poor schools, and
lax discipline.  To a true socialist, education in skills and knowledge
is the great leveller.  It may disappoint you to learn that most ordinary
Americans believe that too, even if the vote Republican.

 There is much
>less call for unskilled jobs now than in your father's time.

--You're quite correct on this one.

>That's why you have your drug/crime centres, the so called education
>system still turning out  surplus "factory fodder".

--Not quite correct.  The sensible educators are trying to cope with
drugs, but the influence of the streets is pretty strong.  I agree that
our educational system is far from perfect, but it is not as bad as
you say.

>It is a fallacy that your manager is doing so much more. Just that if
>he makes mistakes, there is more lost and there is a cover-up...
>(First-hand experiences follow if you are interested), same with lawers,
>accountants, physicists they have their special lingo to make you think
>they know something you cannot get into... Long hours my arse! Long
>lunchbreaks and those hard working conferences. oops, I upset every academic
>on the list now...  If it is such a burden - why not share it?
>
--Most of the people that I know who manage businesses put in long hours,
and work THEIR arses off.  You can't run a business and let it run itself.
It just doesn't work that way, despite the Marxist rhetoric.

>Without being "in the know", encouragement; not categorised from childhood
>as a failure, who only good for such and such, lacking basic literacy
>the chance is minimal. Yes, nobody intends to stay a butcher's helper,
>but you have pressure on you to by the things advertised just the same,
>with the basic idea that if you can't afford it, you are not part of the
>big happy, normal way of life. You do crime/drugs as the only escape.
>
--Most people here improve their skills and do not do crime and drugs.
We really do need to take up a collection to bring you here.

>I don't know about the US, but here under the years of Thatcher the
>way to collect the data was changed about 20 times. If you count in again
>the 16-18 year olds, who are not in education, wives/husbands who cannot
>claim any benefit, because somebody is in the family working, etc etc,
>you'll end up with the same - or worse figures.
>
--Sorry.  My source is The Economist.  You probably don't approve.

>> Most people are not
>> making arms.  You paint an interesting picture of the U.S.  Rich
>> people living in armed camps, poor people dying in the streets, and
>> arms factories humming away, grinding out weapons automatically.
>
>With your enthusiastic help - we are getting there...
>
--Hardly.  We have cut our arms budget and our armed forces.  And
I still can't recognize your portrait of America as anything I
see around me.  Here, we make video and audio cassettes, tires,
excuse me, tyres, rolled steel, and, in a year or two, Mercedes
sport vehicles.  No guns, tanks, bombers or shells.

>> Maybe we on this list could pass the hat and gather enough money
>> for you to spend a couple of weeks here.  On the other hand, then
>> you wouldn't be as much fun to communicate with.
>>
>Hear, hear!!  Try me.

--I'd be glad to put something in the pot.  Joe Pannon, are you
listening?

Charles

On Thu, 15 Dec 1994 14:48:29 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>> >
>
>I think you do not represent the views of the present working class,
>or any sympathy with it. That is the point. You sold out comrade.

--But for a good price.  That is the American way.  Most of us from
the working class do the same.  Sorry you don't approve, beloved
sister Eva.

Your sold-out brother,

Charles

Date sent:  15-DEC-1994 14:22:39

>
>On Wed, 14 Dec 1994 12:54:12 EST Janet Brown said:
>>
>>As best I can remember, you maintain strong Christian beliefs, Charles.  Is
>>there not a reference in the Bible to removing the stick in one's own eye
>>before criticizing the speck of dust in another's eye?  I would suggest
>>that you apply your criticism of the American Left to yourself.  Your
>>rhetoric is theoretical as much as that which you disdain.  What do you
>>know personally about how the poor and working class work and live?
>>
>--I grew up pretty poor, actually.  In 1940, my father quit his job and
>went to work at Caterpillar Tractor Co. in Peoria.  I am working class,
>plain and simple.  When I said I wanted to go to college, my father gave
>me a handshake and said, "Good luck.  I hope you make it.  I wish I could
>help, but you know how it is."  I did know and have never resented the
>work I did.  I am a former University professor who has taught with
>educated middle-class radicals for years.  They do not like dirty
>people.  One of my favorite liberals offers me Kleenex whenever she
>sees me sweat.  Get off my back, please, I do come from poor dirt-
>farmer stock.  Challenge all you want, but I am as hard to convince
>as our beloved Eva Durant.
>
>Cheers
>
>Charles

I think a crucial point in all of this is that generalizations are
impossible.  I cannot claim all liberals are hypocrites, and I cannot claim
all conservatives are heartless.  Many people who hold to liberal views in
America grew up poor, and are not afraid of getting their hands dirty.
Earlier, Eva Durant (I believe it was) indicated that everything
alternative in America gets labelled kook or crank.  Unfortunately, its
true when it comes to liberals.  Conservatives have found it easy to label
them, one label being that of rich dilettante, assuaging their "guilt"
through pseudo-politics.  If I understood rightly, Janet Brown was
responding to just this sort of comment.  Another example is the
conservative knee-jerk labelling of everything Marxist or socialist as being
one and the same as Marxist-Leninism.
Of course, I won't argue that aren't liberals like Charles described, just
as I hope Charles will accept that some conservatives are really
oppurtunistic, money hungry monsters who do wonderfull things like test new
vaccines on remote villages in Chile, only to accidently infect every man,
woman and child with incurable diseases.

        Another thought on those neat conspiracy theories concerning
Germany, France and Britain, and former Yugoslavia.  Maybe Western
governments think it would be benificial to long term stability in the
Balkans for the region to be ethnically homogeneous, and by secretly aiding
the Serbs, they are simply utilizing what appears to be the easist route to
their goal.
        Once again, I don't believe a word of what I just wrote.


                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"

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Eva Durant ) wrote:

: I don't know about the US, but here under the years of Thatcher the
: way to collect the data was changed about 20 times. If you count in again
: the 16-18 year olds, who are not in education, wives/husbands who cannot
: claim any benefit, because somebody is in the family working, etc etc,
: you'll end up with the same - or worse figures.

in the united kingdom, the definition of "unemployed" was changed at least
23 times between may 1979 and june 1989, according to a report in "the
guardian" of the period. each new definition decreased the number of officially
unemployed persons. one curious feature of one of the changes was that
school-leavers who did not find employment did not count as unemployed.

the guiding philosphy of current mainstream economics seems to be:
"never mind the weather, change the barometer."

d.a.

 wrote:

: (Not to mention as a cure for a bad cold; if I'm not mistaken a

: hot wine drink is part of the `two-hat cure'.)

: --Greg

try hot black tea with fresh lemon juice, copiuous amount of honey
and barack palinka, or failing that, szilva palinke/slivovitz.

in my experience a ratio of 2:1:4 palinka, lemon and hot water works
very well. (if it does not cure the cold, at least you don't care
about it!)

d.a.

 wrote:
: Karcsi wants to know "Why was Hungary singled out after both World Wars in
: having huge chunks of land taken away from her?"

hungary wasn't singled out.

russia, austria, germany and turkey all lost substantial territory
after world war i.

the soviet union, germany and hungary all regained at least most of the
territory in the course of the thirties and world war ii.

after world war ii, hungary returned to its post world war i boundaries
(0 nett loss), poland and germany lost territory, the ussr gained territory,
czechoslovakia and rumania lost territory when compared to the post world
war i boundaries.

d.a.

At the risk of sounding like I am nit-picking, I have to add to
            this conversation that Hungary did lose terrritory after WW II
           , the so-called Bratislava bridgehead--5 villages on the south
           side of the Danube opposite Bratislava.  Not much territory, bu
           t still a loss.  Ken Nyirady

Christmas will be here in hardly more than a week.
All of you Christian Hungarians, who might not have
access to Hungarian prayer books, let me provide you with these
lines, to help you celebrate the Holidays. In my next postings,
I will give you the copy of several well known Hungarian
Christmas carols. The words might have already faded in your
memory, but I am sure, the melody is still somewhere in there.
I am sorry, I can give you only
the Roman Catholic versions. Hopefully some of our Protestant
netters will give us their version.

Merry Christmas ! Boldog Kara'csonyi U~nnepeket !


Az U'r ima'dsa'ga
=================

Mi Atya'nk ! Ki vagy a mennyekben,
szenteltesse'k meg a te neved;
jo~jjo~n el a te orsza'god;
legyen meg a te akaratod,,
mike'ppen mennyben,
azonke'ppen itt a fo~ldo~n is;
mindennapi kenyeru~nket adjad meg neku~nk ma;
e's bocsa'sd meg neku~nk a mi ve'tkeinket,
mike'ppen mi is megbocsa'tunk
az ellenu~nk ve'tetteknek;
e's ne vigy minket a kise'rte'sbe,
de szabadits meg a gonoszto'l.
Amen

Az angyali u~dvo~zlet

LXXXIV. E'nek

Mennybo"l az angyal lejo~tt hozza'tok ||: pa'sztorok :||,
hogy Bethlehenbe sietve menve'n la'ssa'tok.

Istennek Fia, aki szu~letett  ||: ja'szolban :||,
O" le'szen nektek U~dvo~zito"to~k valo'ban.

Mellette vagyon az O" e'desanyja ||: Ma'ria :||,
barmok ko~zo~tt fekszik, ja'szolban nyugszik szent Fia.

El is mene'nek ko~szo~nte'se're ||: azonnal :||,
sze'p aja'nde'kot vive'n szivo~kben magokkal.

A kis Je'zuska't egyenlo"ke'ppen ||: ima'dja'k :||,
A nagy U'ristent ilyen nagy jo'e'rt mind a'ldja'k.

Visszate're'nek o"k haza'jokba ||: nagy vigan :||,
Ezt a nagy titkot mindenek mondja'k nagy ba'tran.

LXXXIII. E'nek

Dicso"se'g mennyben az Istennek!
Dicso"se'g mennyben az Istennek!
Az angyali seregek, vigan igy e'nekelnek:
-Dicso"se'g, dicso"se'g Istennek!

Be'kesse'g fo~ldo~n az embernek!
Be'kesse'g fo~ldo~n az embernek!
Kit az igaz szeretet a kis Je'zushoz vezet,
Be'kesse'g, be'kesse'g embernek.

Dicse'rju~k a szent angyalokkal,
Imadjuk a hiv pa'sztorokkal
az isteni gyermeket, ki minket igy szeretett,
dicse'rju~k, ima'djuk e's a'ldjuk.

Kis Je'zus ne vess meg bennu~nket,
Hallgasd meg buzgo' ke're'su~nket,
Ja'szolodna'l fogadjuk, hogy a ve'tket elhagyjuk;
Oh Je'zus, ne vess meg, hallgass meg.

Dicso"se'g az o~ro~k Atya'nak
E's e'rtu~nk szu~letett Fia'nak.
Minketto" Szentlelke'nek, a malaszt ku'tfeje'nek:
Dicso"se'g, dicso"se'g Istennek!

LXXXV. E'nek

Pa'sztorok, pa'sztorok o~rvendezve
Sietnek Je'zushoz Bethlehembe.
Ko~szo~nte'st mondanak a kisdednek,,
ki va'ltsa'got hozott az embernek.

Angyalok szo'zata minket is hiv,
E'rtse meg ezt teha't minden hu" sziv.
A kisded Je'zuska't mi is a'ldjuk,
s mint a hiv pa'sztorok magasztaljuk.

U~dvo~zle'gy kis Je'zus! Ki mie'rtu~nk
szu~letve, va'ltsa'got hoza'l neku~nk;
Meghoztad az igaz hit vila'ga't,
megnyita'd szent Atya'd mennyorsza'ga't.

Dicso"se'g, ima'da's az Atya'nak.
E'rettu~nk szu~letett szent Fia'nak
e's a vigasztalo' Szentle'leknek,
a Szentha'romsa'gban egy Istennek.

>paul ) wrote:
>...
>: practice Magyar pronounciation, contact Tony Maltby
>...
>the english word is "pronunciation" and the english syntax would be
>"but needs help with pronunciation".
>d.a.


Imre, give it a rest!  I, like many folks, sometimes write using the
fewest number of words to get the message across, even if the grammer
is off, just to save time.  What is the point of correcting my
grammer, especially if we are not presently locking horns on some
issue?  What's the point?   As for the spelling - fine, it was wrong,
but you got the message didn't you?  WHen I wrote my thesis for my
masters degree in engineering, I made sure the grammer was correct, but
for the list, short and sweet works "pretty good".

Paul