I'm looking for recordings by the great Hungarian violinist "Netti".
If you have any information about where I can get them, please email me.

Kösonöm szépen!

David Nebenzahl  )

Could anyone please provide me with a precise and reliable answer to the
following question: Why is the cross on top of the Holy Crown of Hungary 
on a tilt? Why does it incline? I know the colourful story of the crown
in great detail, I know that it has been lost, stolen, buried etc. on
various occasions but when precisely did the cross get the tilt?

I would be grateful for an answer and ask you to mail it directly to my
e-mail address 

Thanks a lot, 

Osmo Pekonen, Finland

In article >,  says...
>
>Hi there,
>
>I have a slight problem. I don't speak Hungarian but I am wondering what 
the
>following means...
>
>
>Sia Helyes Vagy!
>
>
>If you can translate this into English that would be great.
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>
>Greetings,
>
>
>Hein van der Wielen
>The Netherlands, Europe


It means: Hi! you are cute!  (Sia is the slangue of the Austro/Hungarian 
"Servus")

Agnes

 () wrote:

> Ez pedig nem mas, hogy tippeljunk kinek a
>stilusara hasonlit a FORUM legujabb fenegyerekenek, Karesznak
>bicskanyitogato irasai. 

	Hogy az igazat megvalljam nem tippelni akarok--mivel minden ilyenfajta
"jatek" tolem lelkileg teljesen tavol all--ilyen dolgokkal egyszeruen
nem foglalkozom. Ellenben hogy az igazat megvalljam, Karesz irasait
nem tartom "bicskanyitogato"-nak, vagy "tenyerbemaszonak." Jokat
nevetek rajta. Gondolom az ert, mivel az en hocipom mar teljesen tele
van Nemenyi sirankozasaival. Elegem van "baratai" fenyegetozeseibol,
es elegem van az inszinualasokbol. Ezek kozott az irasok kozott Karesz
levelei  "a breath of fresh air."

	Balogh Eva

Peter Szaszvari wrote:
> >On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 02:39:02 GMT,  wrote:
> >
> >>I have a small request.  I want to compliment a very attractive
> and nice
> >>young Hungarian woman (age 26) in her own language. At the
> least, I would
> >>want to convey that she is both pretty and appealing as a
> person.<snip>
> Pay attention with big open eyes when she talks, then kiss her.
> It will do. :)<snip>

Interestingly (or not) I would like to echo John's question as I know a very at
tractive 
and nice Hungarian lady (also 26-ish) - Better not be the same one or you're in
trouble John! ;-)

Re: Peter's suggestion - Nice! ;-) I feel though that in my case I may need to 
be 
a little more *subtle* 

What I am after is something like "You are very beautiful" "I like you a lot" s
ort of 
stuff.

Is "szép" a good word in this context?

Thanks in advance - I trust would be respondants not to employ the Monty Python
 
translation approach... :)

Cheers - Tim

In article >,
	 (T.M.Lutas) writes:
> In article >,  (Andras Kornai)
> wrote:
> 
>> dbrutus writes: 

>> > So if a child was the son of the politically disfavored, the son of an 
>> > anti-communist, his scoring on the math or physics national competition 
   
>> > was unaffected? 
> 
>> Of course. Scoring was anonymous. 
> 
> If you look at the headers on this series of posts they are both in
> soc.culture.magyar and soc.culture.romanian. I've been trying to make things 
> relevant to both groups, I hope you do the same. In the Romanian context 
> scoring was "anonymous" but the politically disadvantaged somehow failed 
> in far greater proportions then their advantaged classmates. As one of the 
> winners of the system you have a certain perspective. 

 As one of the modest participants on the physics (and sometimes math) 
competitions in Romania ("Olimpiade", as they were called) I feel insulted by 
your remarks originating in pure ignorance about them! I followed the 
discussion about the elites, wondering about your ferm opinions when you never
actually lived in the communist Romania, but that is a point left to your 
discussion partner. However, discussing a particular subject as that of the 
science competitions, I dare to say that you have not a faintest idea what you 
are talking about! Please, try to give some proof that "the politically 
disadvantaged somehow failed in far greater proportions then their advantaged 
classmates" (your words). Doing this, please tell also what did it mean to be 
politically disadvantaged in this very context, also please point out who were
the advantaged classmates. As you talk about _far bigger proportions_, this 
should not be difficult. By the way, I just realize that you really are 
completely out of context in your remarks. At the science competitions you 
competed not with your classmates but mainly with collegues from other schools,
finally from the whole country, and if you were lucky enough, even from most 
of the world.

 With nine years of continuous presence in these competitions on every 
possible level, I must ask you on behalf of all former participants 
("olimpici", many of them probably reading scr) to show us some numbers 
supporting your claim (which, btw. is clearly impossible) or back off from 
your comments which I find (and I stress on it) insulting!

 
>                                                      Whether in Hungary 
> they did things more honestly than in Romania I can't speak to but I would 
> suggest that it is far more psychologically comfortable for you to think that
> you have had no privilege and you got where you were on pure merit. This 
> isn't proof of guilt, merely a suggestion that you be very careful in your 
> examination and judgment of the system that produced you.
> 

 Sorry Brutus, but your words show that you can't speak about this subject 
neither regarding Hungary, neither Romania. Let me be clear: Romania was an 
awfull place to live in compared to Hungary before '89. But even that being the
case, I find it disrespectful from you to try to mock everithing from that 
country just for the sake of winning an argument! 

Science competitions put aside (btw, I am ready to answer questions on __that_ 
subject) I would like to ask you to try to answer the following questions
(mainly for yourself, not for me):

Was Octavian Paler a member of the elite?
Was Nicolae Manolescu a member of the elite?
Was Emil Constantinescu a member of the elite?               (**)
Was Gabriel Liiceanu a member of the elite?

When yes, should we condamn them or not? And why?

(**) For scm readers:

O. Paler: Writer, former president of the television, former Central Comitee 
member, presently director of the bigest opposition newspaper, Romania Libera.
Co-founder of the Civic Alliance (Alianta Civica, AC), presently member of the
Democratic Convention (Conventia Democratica din Romania, CDR).

N. Manolescu: One of the most appreciated critics of the Romanian literature. 
Prof. Univ. Now director of the cultural weekly Romania Literara and president 
of the Party of Civic Alliance (Partidul Aliantei Civice, PAC), senator. 
I don't remember whether he was member of the Communist Party or not.

E. Constantinescu: Prof. Univ. (Geologist). Former member of the Communist 
Party, once secretary of the party organisation of his faculty. Rector of the 
Universty of Bucharest between 1992-96. Presidential candidate of CDR in 1992.
President of CDR and intented presidential candidate for 1996.

G. Liiceanu: Phylosopher, Prof. Univ. Author of the "Apel catre lichele!" 
( "Felhivas a semmirekellokhoz" (lakajokhoz, koponyegforgatokhoz stb)) from 
december 1989, calling for retirement from public life of the former 
collaborators of the Party. (A call in vain, I should add). Currently director 
of the "Humanitas" publishing house. He was not party member.
  
> DB
> 
> -- 
> The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
> Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
> Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
> These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such

Zoli

CRY FOR HELP FROM A VIETNAMESE MOTHER TO SAVE THE LIFE OF HER LITTLE GIRL

It is devastating and frightening to know that a member of your family is
threatened with cancer. My daughter, Julia Lam (Lam Gia Binh), was diagnosed
with leukemia shortly before her six birthday in April 1996. Most victims will
live free of leukemia after receiving intensive chemotherapy and radiation
treatments while others will give in to this disease. Leukemia is a form of
blood cancer and it can happen to any healthy individual.

Even with the intensive treatment and the greatest care at Children Hospital
of Eastern Ontario (CHEO), Julia's life is only stable day-by-day with
chemotherapy. Her illness is considered high risk and a Bone Marrow Transplant
is needed.

Julia's 2 year-old sister, my husband and I have had our blood tested with the
hope that a matching marrow could be found within the family. Unfortunately,
the results were disappointing as no match was found. As her mother, I can now
only pray and call on EACH OF YOU to have your blood tested (HLA typing) at
any local Red Cross Office. With your help, Julia and other patients can have
a second chance at life.

The chance of finding a match will increase if more people register in the
Unrelated Bone Marrow Registry Program, particularly Asian donors. Your marrow
will not only save Julia's life but can also save other patients who are
suffering from a number of bone marrow disorders.

Time is running out on her. For more information in Ottawa, please contact:

Hy Phung  (613) 238-5905,
Bich Lien (613) 726-0847,
Lam Chan  (613) 990-4775 (W), (613) 829-3951 (H),
or E-mail to 

You can also contact any local Red Cross Office to learn about the Unrelated
Bone Marrow Donor Registry Program.

From Julia Lam's mother, Jennifer Lam
Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA	7/96

-- 
Stephen Hui ) Computer Network Management
Mitel Corporation - 350 Legget Dr., Kanata, Ont., K2K 1X3
Tel   : (613) 592-2122 x1395	    Fax   : (613) 592-4784

Hi all,



Thanks for your replies.....

There has been  a vigorous debate over the privileged elite of
Hungarian society. It is to this debate that I would like to add my
own ideas and observations.

	Of course, there is no question that there was an intellectual elite
(in addition to a political elite) in Hungary. And yes, Andras
Kornai's father belonged to that elite. But that doesn't make Janos
Kornai a communist as this intellectual elite's position in society
depended more on merit than on its connection to politics.

	Interestingly, often one could find members of this elite who in 1956
were politically involved and as the result, they ended up in jail for
a number of years. But by 1963-64 these people were let go and
although for a few years they experienced some hardship, a few years
later, they began to take their rightful place in society. They were
allowed to finish university, they received good jobs in research
institutes, they were eventually allowed to travel abroad, they
received IREX fellowships, they published books, and so on and so
forth. They looked around and I think they themselves were surprised
to find themselves as part of the elite! The above was not an unusual
scenario. I have known several people whose careers followed exactly
that path.

	I personally left Hungary after 1956 at the age of twenty but if I
hadn't, most likely I would have been eventually part of that elite.
First, I would have been kicked out from ELTE and incarcerated with a
fairly long sentence (5-10 years) but eventually I would have let go
perhaps before I served my term. Then for a few years I would have
worked at fairly manial jobs but eventually they would have let me
finish university. There, as before, I would have done well, and upon
graduation I would have ended up at some kind of research institute. I
would have been able to publish articles and books and eventually I
would have ended up being able to accept invitations from foreign
universities to lecture. And so on and so forth.

	The fact is that this elite was quite large and politically not
necessarily active. Many of them, in fact, played some role in the
revolutionary events of 1956 but after 1963 Kadar's slogan of "Who are
not against us with us" allowed these people to rise to prominence.

	The political elite was a different cup of tea. However, I cannot
outline the possible careers of that elite simply because I didn't
know anyone who belonged to that group. That political elite, as a
result of the events of 1989-90, was split into two groups: the
hardliners and the reformists. The hardliners, it seems to me, pretty
well disappeared from the national scene. (I looked up some names in
the Hungarian *Whose's Who and it seems to me that the hardliners
pretty well retired from any signiificant political or economic
positions.) The reformist political elite, however, is in the
forefront of political and economic life, especially now that Hungary
has a socialist government.

	Eva Balogh

Well, after my first rage attack at seeing how that Megorov had flooded 
this newsgroup , and as Laszlo Horvath says also soc.culture.romanian and
bit.listserv.hungary, it's time to serenate and to take initiatives like
Horvath's to assure that this won't happen again. Unfortunately, that's the
risk with computers nowadays. There's people, normally alone people, who
devotes most of their time to enter machines, to make evil and in a word,
to disturb  others. I don't know what kind of frustration affects him, but
we also have species like these in my university who use to crack computers,
destroy files and these things.

I am not hungarian, nor have hungarian origins. I'm Spanish-French and just
want
to learn Hungarian and I found very useful this newsgroups, to read posts and
try to guess what are they talking about, and even write my own ones. Also I
use to copy and bring home Electronic Journals to translate them and get
aquainted with Hungary and hungarians and it really annoyed me that that
person (to call him something) had done that, because first of all, I found it
a real disrespect to Hungarians. 

Let's write to  to complain as Laszlo Horvath has done, to ensure
that he wont do it again and leave this newsgroups to normal people.

I know the reaction wouldn't have been posting an article insulting him and
sending him to the WC,  that's falling down to his same level.
-- 
Juan Carlos Azkoitia         

"Munka dreapta nu se pierde."
Proverb Romanesc

 .edu (Gyorgy Kovacs)wrote:
<><CULTURE: The nation who gave the following people to the World: Bela
<><Bartok, Ferenc Liszt, Mihaly Munkacsi, Victor Vasarelli, Zoltan Kodaly,
<><George Czukor, etc. etc. etc

Wally Keeler > wrote:
<>What's the matter, too damn lazy to stand up for your own people and pass
<>them off as mere "etc. etc. etc."

(Gyorgy Kovacs)wrote:
<Why go for the cannon when you can kill a varmint with a slingshot?

Because I regard the genius' of Hungarian culture as more than a mere
slingshot -- in your case -- slingshit.

<>You can also include the scientific community; the Nobel Laureates:
<>Lenard, Fulop, for his phosphorescence research and his theory of
<>photoelectric influence; Barany, Robert, for medicine, equilibrium in the
<>inner ear; Zsigmondy, Richard Adolf colloid-chemical research;
<>Szentgyorgi, Albert, for biological burn research and vitamin C
<>influence; Hevesy, Gyorgy Jozsef, for the use of isotopes in chemical
<>research; Bekesy, Gyorgy, for inner ear research; Wigner, Jeno, for
<>nuclear reactions; Gabor, Denes, for 3d photography;

I would but the field in qustion was CULTURE, not SCIENCE.
                           \
                            Oops, your stupidity is showing again.
                            Time to zip it up before you embarrass
                            yourself further.

Hmm, let me see. Science is not culture you claim. Culture excludes science
you claim. Hmm. The Oxford Dictionary defines culture as:
1) Worship, reverential homage
2) The action or practice of cultivating the soil
3) The cultivating or rearing of a plant or crop
3b)The rearing or raising of certain animals, such as fish, oysters, bees.
3c)The artificial development of microscopic organisms
3d)The training of the human body
4) The cultivating or development (of the mind, faculties, manners, etc): 
   improvement or refinement by education and training.
5) The training, development and refinement of mind, taste and manners; the
   condition of thus being trained and refined; the intellectual side of
   civilization.
5b)A particular form or type of intellectual development.
6) The prosecution with special attention or study of any subject or
   pursuit.

I'm afraid the established definition of culture includes the genius of the
scientific community. Chalk it up to your $19.95 education.

<>And there is a long list of other influential Hungarians:
<>Segner, Janos: physicist
<>Vitus, Janos Balsarati: court physician to Pope Paul V
<>Kempelen, Farkas Pazmandi: engineer
<>Biro, Laszlo Janos: ballpoint pen inventor
<>Sziegmeth, Alfred: directed Pioneer research satellites
<>Pavlics, Ferenc: designer of the moon buggy
<>Domokos, Istvan: designed LEM engine
<>Karman, Todor: aerodynamic specialist
<>Neumann, Janos: mathematician

<See above.

Indeed, see mine above.

But, let us not restrict ourselves to the pittance you originally provided.

Szenes, Zsuzsa: artist
Haraszti, Miklos: writer
Kis, Janos: writer
toth, gabor: conceptual artist
Galantai, Gyorgy: artist
Erdely, Miklos: artist
Petocz, Andras: poet
Szkarosi, Endre: sound poet
Szombathy, Balint: artist
Kukorelly, Endre: poet
Perneczky, Geza: artist
Dalos, Gyorgy: novelist
Molnar, Katalin: poet
Csoori, Sandor: writer
....
Now c'mon, let's build it. I only listed a few of the living. There's a lot
of dead whose work lives well today. Let's not be stingy.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article >,
   Tim Southerwood > wrote:
>Peter Szaszvari wrote:
>> >On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 02:39:02 GMT,  wrote:
>> >
>> >>I have a small request.  I want to compliment a very 
attractive
>> and nice
>> >>young Hungarian woman (age 26) in her own language. At the
>> least, I would
>> >>want to convey that she is both pretty and appealing as a
>> person.<snip>
>> Pay attention with big open eyes when she talks, then kiss 
her.
>> It will do. :)<snip>
>
>Interestingly (or not) I would like to echo John's question as I 
know a very attractive 
>and nice Hungarian lady (also 26-ish) - Better not be the same 
one or you're in
>trouble John! ;-)
>
>Re: Peter's suggestion - Nice! ;-) I feel though that in my case 
I may need to be 
>a little more *subtle* 
>
>What I am after is something like "You are very beautiful" "I 
like you a lot" sort of 
>stuff.
>
>Is "szép" a good word in this context?
>
>Thanks in advance - I trust would be respondants not to employ 
the Monty Python 
>translation approach... :)
>
>Cheers - Tim

What you want would work in most of the countries but not 
necessarily in Hungary.
You can say "sze'p vagy" (you are beautiful) but they will 
suspect that you want something too fast or you consider them 
stupid.
Without kidding, you better complement their brain, and they will 
remember it as if they were told they were beautiful.
(If you don't believe it, you may try it)
They ARE beautiful (oh man!) but they want to hear they are 
intelligent.
You know man, an average American love song is just ridiculous in 
Hungary. One of the best jokes is when we translate them word by 
word to Hungarian.

Another thing, if you have to say something at all it is far too 
bad already. Pick up an other girl who understands you without 
it.
Be sure, there IS one!




Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

In article >,
   conny van der wilk <conny van der > 
wrote:
>Dear .....,
>
>I love you in Dutch is "ik hou van jou". Dutch is the language 
of the 
>Netherlans (that is Holland).
>
>I don't know how to use internet very well. So I hope you will 
answer me 
>when you read this, to tell me that I did it right.
>
>with love Conny 
>
>
I am sorry, but Conny's addres was not valid so I could not reach 
him personally.

So dear Conny,

I am sorry but you did it wrong.
You sent your post to 10 newsgroups where nobody was interested, 
instead of sending it to that single idiot who started this 
thread.


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

In article >,
  (Zoltan Gagyi-Palffy) wrote:

> In article >,
>          (T.M.Lutas) writes:
> > In article >,  (Andras Kornai)
> > wrote:
> >> dbrutus writes: 
> >> > So if a child was the son of the politically disfavored, the son of an 
> >> > anti-communist, his scoring on the math or physics national competition 
> >> > was unaffected? 
> > 
> >> Of course. Scoring was anonymous. 
> > 
> > If you look at the headers on this series of posts they are both in
> > soc.culture.magyar and soc.culture.romanian. I've been trying to make
things 
> > relevant to both groups, I hope you do the same. In the Romanian context 
> > scoring was "anonymous" but the politically disadvantaged somehow failed 
> > in far greater proportions then their advantaged classmates. As one of the 
> > winners of the system you have a certain perspective. 

>  As one of the modest participants on the physics (and sometimes math) 
> competitions in Romania ("Olimpiade", as they were called) I feel insulted by
 
> your remarks originating in pure ignorance about them! I followed the 
> discussion about the elites, wondering about your ferm opinions when you neve
r
> actually lived in the communist Romania, but that is a point left to your 
> discussion partner. However, discussing a particular subject as that of the 
> science competitions, I dare to say that you have not a faintest idea
what you 
> are talking about! Please, try to give some proof that "the politically 
> disadvantaged somehow failed in far greater proportions then their advantaged
 
> classmates" (your words). 

Looking back, I find that I had a bit of a disconnect. I misread the national 
competitions for the entrance exams for university. For that mistake I do 
apologize as I usually do when I find myself in the wrong. 

You might have realized that something was afoot when you considered my 
choice of words. One does not fail at a competition, you just don't get a 
winners place. In the case of entrance exams, I relied and continue to 
rely on the evidence of the many political refugees that I have met among 
the NY community who have had direct experience in these matters.

>  Sorry Brutus, but your words show that you can't speak about this 
> subject neither regarding Hungary, neither Romania. Let me be clear:
>  Romania was an awfull place to live in compared to Hungary before '89.
> But even that being the case, I find it disrespectful from you to try to 
> mock everithing from that country just for the sake of winning an argument! 

And when have I tried to mock "everything from that country" for any 
reason, much less just to win an argument? The incredible bravery and 
flexibility of the Romanian people in the case of one of the most brutal, 
prolonged Stalinist repressions is something that remains a testament to 
all of us Romanians no matter what our individual failings. The fact that 
we had the longest post WW II partisan resistances to Soviet occupation of 
any of the East European nations is something that cannot be ignored and 
I have always been cognizant of it and proud of it. The fact that our 
brothers in Moldova have succeeded against terrible odds to resist 
denationalization and to maintain their cultural identity and are making 
their way back home (culturally) of their free will is a great achievement. 

I am often very negative about events inside Romania because I believe that 
we can be a great people and that we need to discuss and correct our errors 
to regain our rightful place among the first world. We made it before, we 
are certainly capable of doing it again.

> Science competitions put aside (btw, I am ready to answer questions on 
> __that_ subject) I would like to ask you to try to answer the following
> questions (mainly for yourself, not for me):
> 
> Was Octavian Paler a member of the elite?
> Was Nicolae Manolescu a member of the elite?
> Was Emil Constantinescu a member of the elite?               (**)
> Was Gabriel Liiceanu a member of the elite?
> 
> When yes, should we condamn them or not? And why?

The subject line and the thrust of the discussion is what is the correct 
moral response to communism and to the people who were in the system at 
various levels. I am not looking for a discussion of trials and 
imprisonment terms as your post seems to suggest that I am.

I suggested that those who did gain advantage from the system under 
Ceausescu & co. or previous communist regimes have an obligation, not under 
law but morally, to not just sit on the sidelines but to actively try to 
do right. Mr. Kornai disagrees with me that he has any such obligation 
in any sense, moral or otherwise. What is your opinion on the real subject 
of this discussion?

I hope that you would agree with me that all four of the people that you 
describe are completely fulfilling their moral duty to help clean up and 
repair our nation. They should be applauded for doing so even when they 
support other political parties than the one that I support (as in the 
case of Mr. Manolescu). 

You have come at me 'with both barrels' as they say in America. I did 
make an error which I have retracted. I can only hope that it was the 
heat of the moment on your part as well that led to your own misreading 
of my position on the elite.

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:
 .edu (Gyorgy Kovacs)wrote:
><><CULTURE: The nation who gave the following people to the World: Bela
><><Bartok, Ferenc Liszt, Mihaly Munkacsi, Victor Vasarelli, Zoltan Kodaly,
><><George Czukor, etc. etc. etc
>
>Wally Keeler > wrote:
><>What's the matter, too damn lazy to stand up for your own people and pass
><>them off as mere "etc. etc. etc."
>
>(Gyorgy Kovacs)wrote:
><Why go for the cannon when you can kill a varmint with a slingshot?
>
>Because I regard the genius' of Hungarian culture as more than a mere
>slingshot -- in your case -- slingshit.
>
><>You can also include the scientific community; the Nobel Laureates:
><>Lenard, Fulop, for his phosphorescence research and his theory of
><>photoelectric influence; Barany, Robert, for medicine, equilibrium in the
><>inner ear; Zsigmondy, Richard Adolf colloid-chemical research;
><>Szentgyorgi, Albert, for biological burn research and vitamin C
><>influence; Hevesy, Gyorgy Jozsef, for the use of isotopes in chemical
><>research; Bekesy, Gyorgy, for inner ear research; Wigner, Jeno, for
><>nuclear reactions; Gabor, Denes, for 3d photography;
>
>I would but the field in qustion was CULTURE, not SCIENCE.
>                           \
>                            Oops, your stupidity is showing again.
>                            Time to zip it up before you embarrass
>                            yourself further.
>
>Hmm, let me see. Science is not culture you claim. Culture excludes science
>you claim. Hmm. The Oxford Dictionary defines culture as:
>1) Worship, reverential homage
>2) The action or practice of cultivating the soil
>3) The cultivating or rearing of a plant or crop
>3b)The rearing or raising of certain animals, such as fish, oysters, bees.
>3c)The artificial development of microscopic organisms
>3d)The training of the human body
>4) The cultivating or development (of the mind, faculties, manners, etc): 
>   improvement or refinement by education and training.
>5) The training, development and refinement of mind, taste and manners; the
>   condition of thus being trained and refined; the intellectual side of
>   civilization.
>5b)A particular form or type of intellectual development.
>6) The prosecution with special attention or study of any subject or
>   pursuit.
>
>I'm afraid the established definition of culture includes the genius of the
>scientific community. Chalk it up to your $19.95 education.
>
><>And there is a long list of other influential Hungarians:
><>Segner, Janos: physicist
><>Vitus, Janos Balsarati: court physician to Pope Paul V
><>Kempelen, Farkas Pazmandi: engineer
><>Biro, Laszlo Janos: ballpoint pen inventor
><>Sziegmeth, Alfred: directed Pioneer research satellites
><>Pavlics, Ferenc: designer of the moon buggy
><>Domokos, Istvan: designed LEM engine
><>Karman, Todor: aerodynamic specialist
><>Neumann, Janos: mathematician
>
><See above.
>
>Indeed, see mine above.
>
>But, let us not restrict ourselves to the pittance you originally provided.
>
>Szenes, Zsuzsa: artist
>Haraszti, Miklos: writer
>Kis, Janos: writer
>toth, gabor: conceptual artist
>Galantai, Gyorgy: artist
>Erdely, Miklos: artist
>Petocz, Andras: poet
>Szkarosi, Endre: sound poet
>Szombathy, Balint: artist
>Kukorelly, Endre: poet
>Perneczky, Geza: artist
>Dalos, Gyorgy: novelist
>Molnar, Katalin: poet
>Csoori, Sandor: writer
>...
>Now c'mon, let's build it. I only listed a few of the living. There's a lot
>of dead whose work lives well today. Let's not be stingy.
>--
>Wally Keeler

You are funny. Stupid, uncreative, but funny. And predictable. I already know
what your attempted comeback will be.
GK

Peter Szaszvari ) wrote:

>Who defines you a Christian?
>1 You
>2 Others
>3 The Only Son of The Only God

>Your answer here -> [ ]

My faith in God and in his written word and in his Church makes me a 
Christian.

-- 

Ivan

---
Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---
"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Jesus)
---
WARNING! Flames in my mailbox are subject to a fee of one
million US Dollars for processing. The act of e-mailing 
constitutes acceptance to these terms.
---

In article >,
    (Zoltan_Manyoki_HL_SP_PE_DES) 
wrote:
>In article 
>,
>Alex Yordanov > writes:
>
>> ... Second, an embryo is a human being as much as your nose is 
...
>
>When did your nose turned into a human being?  Perhaps, it still 
has to? 
>I'd like to see your face.  It must look amazing.
>
>
>Zoltan
>

Yeah, that's right!
And the ~400 eggs in every born women are human beings and the 
trillions of sperms made by men are as well.

What a massacre !!!



Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

Peter Szaszvari wrote:

> And the ~400 eggs in every born women are human beings and the
> trillions of sperms made by men are as well.
> 
> What a massacre !!!

Eggs and sperms are NOT human beings. Human life begins at the moment 
WHEN the female egg meets the sperm!

-- 

Ivan

---
Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---
"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Jesus)
---
WARNING! Flames in my mailbox are subject to a fee of one
million US Dollars for processing. The act of e-mailing 
constitutes acceptance to these terms.
---

Zoltan Gagyi-Palffy wrote:
> 
>  As one of the modest participants on the physics (and sometimes math)
> competitions in Romania ("Olimpiade", as they were called) I feel insulted by
> your remarks originating in pure ignorance about them! I followed the
> discussion about the elites, wondering about your ferm opinions when you neve
r
> actually lived in the communist Romania, but that is a point left to your
> discussion partner. However, discussing a particular subject as that of the
> science competitions, I dare to say that you have not a faintest idea what yo
u
> are talking about! Please, try to give some proof that "the politically
> disadvantaged somehow failed in far greater proportions then their advantaged
> classmates" (your words). Doing this, please tell also what did it mean to be
> politically disadvantaged in this very context, also please point out who wer
e
> the advantaged classmates. As you talk about _far bigger proportions_, this
> should not be difficult. By the way, I just realize that you really are
> completely out of context in your remarks. At the science competitions you
> competed not with your classmates but mainly with collegues from other school
s,
> finally from the whole country, and if you were lucky enough, even from most
> of the world.

As an even more modest participant to the mathematics competitions I totally ag
ree with 
Zoli. Politics was present in those contests by a number of boring speeches at 
the opening 
and ending ceremonies (by local figures) but the ones to really deal with the o
rganization 
were the professors themselves, and not the apparatchiks. 

Furthermore I think that the initial post is slightly unrealistic for two reaso
ns:

1. Unfortunately (for the country) in pre-1989 Romania there were *so few* poli
tical opponents
that the problem of their children not making through the competitions was simp
ly not an
issue.

2. This assumes that the children (or the parents) of the favored would care fo
r the "glory"
of such contests. This is totally wrong. As a matter of fact the situation was 
quite the
opposite:  they couldn't care less about them. I remember an instance when the 
daughter of 
such local figure in Galati did not make it through the admission contest at th
e "Vasile 
Alecsandri" high-school in Galati. As a result her father had to contact people
 at the 
Ministry of Instruction so that the number of admission slots (that was fixed a
t that time)
be increased with 150 slots, so that her daughted would be admitted. That year 
the entrance 
g.p.a. at the best high-school in Galati county was 3.25 (on a scale of 10)!


3. As a conclusion to the second point: science competition were not "their ter
itory". It was 
largely a matter of individual (student+professor) work.By the way, one of the 
people that 
assist the U.S. Mathematical Olympic team is prof. Titu Andreescu, formerly in 
Timisoara. 

4. As for the people involved with the olympiads: just look at average level of
 instruction 
of supporters of various political parties in today's Romania. While this is ce
rtainly 
a global view, it makes it pretty clear that "it was not their field".


To be entirely honest I know one case when someone was not allowed to participa
te to the 
International Mathematical Olympiad for political reasons (for former olympics:
 Andrei 
Teleman, the son of Kostake Teleman, professor at the Faculty of Mathematics fr
om the
University of Bucharest). While I am not 100% positive about the accuracy of my
 story 
(I didn't make the extended team that year and expect corrections from Zoli if 
I'm wrong),
from what people that were in charge with the selection of the team told me thi
ngs
went like this:

- he won the national competition (or anyway was in the top people) and got sel
ected in 
the extended team.

- he was classified among the first six (*public* results), and so he theoretic
ally had the
right to participate to the I.M.O. *Now* politics mixed up, and he was not allo
wed (despite
interventions of the professors in the selection comittee) to participate. Ther
e was no 
"positive selection" for a person in the team. At that moment the process of se
lecting 
the team for I.M.O. was so competitive that people classified in positions 7-12
 ("the second
team") could have easily classify in the first ten in the world if they partici
pated.

IN OTHER WORDS IT WAS *NOT* THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY THAT PREVENTED HIM FROM CO
MPETING IN THE 
I.M.O. (ACTUALLY THEY WERE ON HIS SIDE). HE WAS CORRECTLY (AND PUBLICLY) CLASSI
FIED BY THIS
COMMUNITY. I think that the rigth classification was published  in "Gazeta Mate
matica" that
year. 

> 
>  With nine years of continuous presence in these competitions on every
> possible level, I must ask you on behalf of all former participants
> ("olimpici", many of them probably reading scr) to show us some numbers
> supporting your claim (which, btw. is clearly impossible) or back off from
> your comments which I find (and I stress on it) insulting!
> 
> 
> >                                                      Whether in Hungary
> > they did things more honestly than in Romania I can't speak to but I would
> > suggest that it is far more psychologically comfortable for you to think th
at
> > you have had no privilege and you got where you were on pure merit. This
> > isn't proof of guilt, merely a suggestion that you be very careful in your
> > examination and judgment of the system that produced you.
> >

I can assure you that Zoli was ranked *on pure merit* , as was basically 
everyone. The science competitions were one of the few things that were 
competitive and fair in Romania of the 80's.

> 
> But even that being the
> case, I find it disrespectful from you to try to mock everithing from that
> country just for the sake of winning an argument!

Agree. 

> 
> Science competitions put aside (btw, I am ready to answer questions on __that
_
> subject) I would like to ask you to try to answer the following questions

> 
> Zoli

Gabriel Istrate

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Laszlo Horvath wrote:
> address for complaints is .

 I made a mistake myself: the above address is correct, the one I 
suggested for their IFRIT before was not.

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMdxNnMQ/4s87M5ohAQGR2wH/UGT13pBeNejZsHThd3CVA7kQipPpymxY
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Hey Wally,
I left out a few things you might want to know.
1. I can afford typos, you can't (you are supposed to be a poet remember?)
2. I don't give a hoot about your Oxford Dictionary, I have my Webster and my 
Longman. You still need to shape up, so keep it.
3. You should know better by now than trying your childish tricks on me.
4. Unlike you I have better things to do than spending hours on an article.
5. I realize you never wanted to know these things.
Regards,
GK

Peter Szaszvari ) wrote:

>Who or what defines the "truth"?

God.

>Is it the same only "true" God or you?

Yes, it's God.

>What is harmony? Isn't it harmony that you feel good after making
>something bad?

Making something bad is not an act that is in harmony with God.

-- 

Ivan

---
Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---
"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Jesus)
---
WARNING! Flames in my mailbox are subject to a fee of one
million US Dollars for processing. The act of e-mailing 
constitutes acceptance to these terms.
---

In article >,
   Ivan Marinov > wrote:
>Peter Szaszvari wrote:
>
>> And the ~400 eggs in every born women are human beings and the
>> trillions of sperms made by men are as well.
>> 
>> What a massacre !!!
>
>Eggs and sperms are NOT human beings. Human life begins at the 
moment 
>WHEN the female egg meets the sperm!
>

And what about the God then?

As far as I know (correct me if I am wrong) a great portion (I 
remember 80%) of those eggs having met(!) that sperm (the great 
"he") just could not get a rest in the womb and they must go.
I am pretty sure this is done by the God.

Another thing, women under a certain weight almost never get 
pregnant (not because they are not needed by anyone).
So women eating too few are big killers to!

What a massacre, I hear the crying!!!

(If I could think simple everything would be simple to me. What a 
great life it would be!)

If there was a biologist reading this, please help me out and 
correct what is incorrect in this post. 


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:
>slingshot -- in your case -- slingshit.

Oh no, Mr. Bill! Wally is back from Wallyland! 
Kindly go back to your dumbass Pseudo Republic of Pseudo Poetry (PROPP).

Gabor

In article > 
Zoltan Gagyi-Palffy wrote:

>N. Manolescu: One of the most appreciated critics of the Romanian literature.
>Prof. Univ. Now director of the cultural weekly Romania Literara and president
>of the Party of Civic Alliance (Partidul Aliantei Civice, PAC), senator.
>I don't remember whether he was member of the Communist Party or not.

He was. (Check Paul Goma's - "Scrisori Intredeschise")
His case perfectly illustrates the romanian intellectuals'
hard choices - that is either work against the system from
within (eating shit included), or openly fight it (and getting
beaten up big time, or fuckin' killed)

Now, guess which one attracted more followers -:)

The different attitude of the Western Europe towards
Central vs. Eastern Europe is also a reflection of this
big disproportion between "soldiers" and "martyrs"
 
td

..................................................................
Nu facem privatizare de dragul privatizării, ci din contra.
			Nicolae Văcăroiu, prim-ministru, 1992-1996