In article >,
 says...
>
>I've found, that you can keep any traditions you fancy
>without  the need for any religious pretence.
>E.g. we have fishsoup and beigli in the evening
>24th dec, not to mention the 6th dec mikulas -
>though the kids now'd grown out of that-
>and we have 25th of dec with the presents, games
>and turkey/xmas pudding etc.
>And any time we're invited to any other stuff -
>eating especially, such as eid - we are more than
>happy to oblige. Let your kids make up their own
>minds, without any extra brainwashing. There is enough
>of that everywhere, anyway.
>
>Eva D
>
>My dear Eva, this is exactly what we used to do.  We had (and still
have) beigli at Christmas.  We also had a tree and presents.  We ate
matzoball soup at Pesach.  However, then came the time when my children
wanted to go to a real Seder.  So I got ourselves invited to friends who
had it.  Then we had to light Chanuka candles.  I ran out and bought a
menorah.  Then Daughter number one got married to a religious boy and
they decided that they don't even want to see us at Christmas and even
refused chanuka presents for the children, saying that you don't give
presents at chanuka (I don't know where they have heard this).  When
daughter number two got married, she asked that we give chanuka presents
to each other.  So, we haven't got a Christmas tree the past 16 years,
although I am still baking beigli.  Daughter Number I is busy frying
latkes at chanuka, although it is not our tradition, and neither of her
husband's who is from the middle east.  As I mentioned, it is easier to
be secular when both come from the same religion.

Agnes

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:      normal

Background:
  A new success for the Hungarian Lobby: According to an announcement
of Al Gore and Madeleine Albright the new foreign policy of the US
government will deal with the protection of natural treasures all over
the World. This policy is regarded as an integral part of national
security.
  The result of this new foreign policy is that the USA will open 12
regional offices in the 12 environmentally most endangered areas in
the World. Thus, our next goal is to reach that one of these offices
will establish in Gyor (Northwest of Hungary). This step would show
the American care for the Danube to the whole World.

What to do:
  Please help to persuade the Clinton, Gore and Albright to open one
of the planned offices in Gyor. Feel free to use the attached form
letters.
   IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THE POLITICIANS FIND THOUSANDS OF LETTERS IN
THEIR MAILBOX. PLEASE ACT!! Please SEND EVEN SNAIL MAILS. These are
more effective.

e-mail address of President Clinton:


e-mail of Vice President Gore:


e-mail of the Secretary of State Albright:


*************************************************************
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter to Clinton:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Bill Clinton
President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20001
(e-mail: )

RE: Establishment of environmental office in Gyor (Hungary)

Dear Mr. President:

Please consider the city of Gyor in Hungary, as one of the 12 new
regional environmental hubs to be established by the State Department.
This would show your interest in the survival of the natural treasures
of the Szigetkoz wetlands, which evolved from Europe's only inland
sea-delta and survived since the last Ice Age.

The Szigetkoz Wetlands are endangered since Slovakia illegally
diverted the Danube river, depriving Hungary of her natural resource.
The result is devastating environmental damage.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, address, title>



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter to Gore:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20001
(e-mail: )

RE: Establishment of environmental office in Gyor (Hungary)

Dear Mr. Vice President:

Please consider the city of Gyor in Hungary, as one of the 12 new
regional environmental hubs to be established by the State Department.
This would show your interest in the survival of the natural treasures
of the Szigetkoz wetlands, which evolved from Europe's only inland
sea-delta and survived since the last Ice Age.

The Szigetkoz Wetlands are endangered since Slovakia illegally
diverted the Danube river, depriving Hungary of her natural resource.
The result is devastating environmental damage.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, address, title>


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter to Albright:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
United States Department of State
Washington, DC 20520
( E-Mail:  )

RE: Establishment of environmental office in Gyor (Hungary)

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please consider the city of Gyor in Hungary, as one of the 12 new
regional environmental hubs to be established by the State Department.
This would show your interest in the survival of the natural treasures
of the Szigetkoz wetlands, which evolved from Europe's only inland
sea-delta and survived since the last Ice Age.

The Szigetkoz Wetlands are endangered since Slovakia illegally
diverted the Danube river, depriving Hungary of her natural resource.
The result is devastating environmental damage.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, address, title>

At 05:08 AM 5/8/97 GMT, Kristof wrote:

<snip>
>The ancient temples (Solomon's, for one) had a similar code; that is,
>there was a court into which anyone might be admitted (what we call the
>"temple grounds" ), and an inner sanctuary into which only those prepared
>may go (which is our temple).  It is not our intention to prevent access.
>In fact, the church spends huge resources trying to get as many people
>prepared to enter as possible.  In the temple, sacred ordinances are
>performed, and the church feels that there should be a level of spiritual
>maturity reached before access is granted to those ordinances.  Sort of a
>"milk before meat" approach.

Yea, sort of.  I guess you could also say it's like "circumcision before
castration".

Joe Szalai

> >      dictionary says 1805-1844 are Smith's
> >dates.  And as I recall it, he was shot by a lynch mob (of ordinary folk)
> >while in the custody of US Marshalls that were taking him to court, not by
> >'soldiers' at all.  I think it was in Missouri or Illinois?
>

I ponder how is better to get the sympathy of Hungarians;
being shot by the police or being shot by a lynch mob...

Whichever - to believe that this proves the point of the victim
is a bit far fetched... and there are counter-examples a-plenty.

Eva D

yet another side to the story (I stop now.)Eva D

>
> At the end Joe Smith had managed to thoroughly piss off the citizenry of
> the surrounding area.  At the time, he was running for president.  He
> had instituted polygyny and had married nearly 2 dozen women, and had
> encouraged others in the Mormon hierarchy to do so, but would not admit
> it publicly.  He had formed a large militia, and in true tinpot dictator
> style, had given himself a military rank higher than any other in the
> US, as its leader, complete with a custom-designed uniform.  He made no
> pretence that Mormons were free to vote democratically, as he was a
> prophet of god, it was clear that his followers should vote the way god
> wanted.
>
> The last straw was when he took the militia and destroyed the printing
> press of a former Mormon who was printing critical articles, revealing
> the shady financial transactions and the polygyny of the Mormons, as
> well as making strong general criticisms of the church.
>
> This more or less provoked mob violence, and the governor was trying to
> avoid open warfare.  As the prophet and his brother were held in the
> jail a mob formed and decided to mete out justice on their own.  They
> were certainly not right, but the Mormons of the time could be used as a
> bad example in the art of PR:  having lied about polygyny, openly
> boasted that god was going to deliver the government of the US to them,
> to run as a Mormon theocracy, having been economically successful, and
> finally illegally destroying a critic's press, giving their opponents a
> "freedom of speech" banner to wrap themselves in, along with defence of
> morals and democracy.
>
> I don't believe that the mob was solely composed of soldiers, or was a
> disguise for offical government action.  The Mormons constituted the
> offical government of the town of Nauvoo, which at the time had nearly
> half the population of the entire state.  The mob was simply a hateful
> band of ordinary people who were disgusted and offended by Mormon
> behavior (did I mention that there were numerous financial disputes
> between Mormons and their neighbours?) and who whipped themselves into a
> murderous frenzy that day.  They overwhelmed the guard of a few men, and
> murdered Joe and his brother.  Other members of the Mormon hierarchy in
> the jail at the time survived.
>
> After this, Brigham Young decided to leave the United States (what is
> now Utah was still Mexican territory).  As Smith had given contradictory
> prophecies on the matter of succession, some of his followers, including
> wife #1, considered his children to be the sucessors, but the majority
> of people followed Brigham Young.  The Reformed Mormons (with Emma
> Smith, wife #1) never accepted the polygamy revelations as valid.
> --
> Greg Erwin                              Internet Infidel
> http://infoweb.magi.com/~godfree        http://www.infidels.org
> Humanist Association of Canada
> http://www.magi.com/~hac/hac.html
>

I've found, that you can keep any traditions you fancy
without  the need for any religious pretence.
E.g. we have fishsoup and beigli in the evening
24th dec, not to mention the 6th dec mikulas -
though the kids now'd grown out of that-
and we have 25th of dec with the presents, games
and turkey/xmas pudding etc.
And any time we're invited to any other stuff -
eating especially, such as eid - we are more than
happy to oblige. Let your kids make up their own
minds, without any extra brainwashing. There is enough
of that everywhere, anyway.

Eva D




> I would give an identity to my children.  One of my daughter's best
> friends are also a mixed couple, only the husband is the renegate Jew
> (from Britain) and the wife secular protestant (Canadian).  We spent a
> few weekends together when they came up visit us in our cottage and she
> was expecting their first baby.  They planned to do as we did - no
> religion, no nothing.  I told her we tried to do this and it didn't work.
> They took my advice and decided the children will grow up protestant. You
> know, Eva, it works when both parents come from identical roots.  I have
> a lot of secular Jewish friends where there was no problem.  Their
> secular Jewish children married catholic girls and decided that the
> children would be catholic.  They know that their fathers are Jewish, but
> they are catholic.  They even come to the Seders every year.  But they
> are catholic.  I don't speak now of a lot of religious stuff, just some
> tradition.  But, I have to admit, my husband always said he would do
> nothing diffently.  Anyway, we can't start all over can we?
>
> Agnes

>It was not Fencsik, it was Farkas (another Gabor).

Gabor, I apologize

>Thank you for your reply. I have another question about your religion. It
is
>the only one (that I know of) that requires a membership card for access
>into its temples. Why?

The ancient temples (Solomon's, for one) had a similar code; that is,
there was a court into which anyone might be admitted (what we call the
"temple grounds" ), and an inner sanctuary into which only those prepared
may go (which is our temple).  It is not our intention to prevent access.
In fact, the church spends huge resources trying to get as many people
prepared to enter as possible.  In the temple, sacred ordinances are
performed, and the church feels that there should be a level of spiritual
maturity reached before access is granted to those ordinances.  Sort of a
"milk before meat" approach.

Most religions are poorly understood by those who do not profess them;
thank you for asking for information.  Again, accept my apology for
confusing your name.

Kristof

Sam Stowe wrote:

>I have, in fact, challenged the man on
>his chosen expression of his religious impulse. Kristof seems to have
>grasped this.

And thanks to Sam and Joe, I got a chance to get wise.  What was called
for was a logical defense, not an emotional one, and I missed that.  I
responded inappropriately when I was challenged, and made a hash of it.
My apologies, gentlemen.  Thank you for calling me on it.

Kristof

Eva Durant writes:
>> Having actually conversed with such people, I'll field this one.  Yes,
it
>> sounds nuts.  To everyone.  Lourdes sounds nuts.  The Virgin Mary
>> appearing in the grass in Poland sounds nuts.  Heck, evolution sounds
like
>> the craziest thing anyone ever heard of.  Truth is nuts, lots of the
time.
>> Fiction is much more plausible.
>>

>Perhaps this thing I've heard about science education in the US
>is true.     If you equate the physical evidence of evolution
>with only urban-legend status of miracles and give consideration to
>the idea of a few thousands years old Earth as per the Bible,
>than there are serious problems, indeed.

>If there is a lot of evidence for a theory, than it is accepted as
>the best approximation of reality.  This method of thinking helped people
to
>put a lot of theory into practice, and allow us to take granted a lot
>of what we've got and makes us optimistic to achieve more.

>Reality won't go away when you stop believing in it.
>Keep your mind open by all means, but don't let your brain drop out.
>Yes, people haven't been able to create anything as amazing as the
>material world that they are trying to comprehend, with forever improving
>grasp. And yes, it all exists and yes it has no bearing on  the
>appearence of a self-conscious mass of molecules.
>and above mentioned entities can be happy and moral without being
>ruled by gods.
>Sorry - but this point of view is not aired very often these days,
>and our world is not better for it.



Please, dear lady, don't misunderstand me.  I am not arguing that
evolution is false, or that there is no evidence for it.  I am arguing
that if you tell someone who has never heard of it that, in defiance of
the law of entropy, life on earth began as one-celled muck and evolved
into ostriches, he will try to have you restrained.  That is all.  By
comparison, a God who performs miracles according to his will and pleasure
does not sound any crazier.  It is, fortunately, not how plausible a thing
sounds that determines its truth.  But that is a sword that cuts both
ways.

Kristof

>What is this ? I did not get this earlier letter from P.Stefanics.
Furthermore
>I checked all the last seven Hungary issues, and I could not find any
trace of
>these posts. What is going on here?

>J.Zs

Janos --

The same thing is happening to me.  Using some posts, which are replies to
posts I haven't seen, I can sort of reconstruct.  But I'm definitely
missing some messages.  How do we fix this?

Kristof

Sam Stowe wrote:

> Most accounts of Smith's demise say he was plucked from a jail in
>Illinois (Carthage? I can't recall)  and hanged, along with his brother,
>Hyrum, by a lynch mob.

It was Carthage; apparently you can recall.  Joseph and his brother were
shot, not hanged, and the mob that did it was composed in the main of
Carthage Grays, who were attached to the Illinois state militia.  Governor
Lilburn Boggs had earlier instituted an extermination order which waived
the criminal offense for killing a Mormon.  My recollection is -- and this
may not be accurate -- that that order is still on the books, along with
some laws making it illegal to have sex on the second floor of a building,
or some such nonsense.

There were two others in the jail, one of whom was shot several times but
survived, and the other of whom escaped "without a hole in his cloak," as
Joseph Smith predicted he would.

Kristof

In addition, when I call up the newsgroup list, it tells me I have so many
unread messages, but when I look at the messages, I invariably find fewer
listed than the list indicated.  What is up?

Kristof

aheringer wrote:
>
>        So, what would you do differently? Eva B.
> >
> I would give an identity to my children.  One of my daughter's best
> friends are also a mixed couple, only the husband is the renegate Jew
> (from Britain) and the wife secular protestant (Canadian).  We spent a
> few weekends together when they came up visit us in our cottage and she
> was expecting their first baby.  They planned to do as we did - no
> religion, no nothing.  I told her we tried to do this and it didn't work.
> They took my advice and decided the children will grow up protestant. You
> know, Eva, it works when both parents come from identical roots.  I have
> a lot of secular Jewish friends where there was no problem.  Their
> secular Jewish children married catholic girls and decided that the
> children would be catholic.  They know that their fathers are Jewish, but
> they are catholic.  They even come to the Seders every year.  But they
> are catholic.  I don't speak now of a lot of religious stuff, just some
> tradition.  But, I have to admit, my husband always said he would do
> nothing diffently.  Anyway, we can't start all over can we?
>
> Agnes
Peter R. Hofstaetter reported in his "Einfuehrung in die Sozialpsycho-
logie" ( Introduction to the Social Psychology, 1959! ) about studies
in the US pertaining the situation of immigrants and theit children.
According to them, the percentage of emmigrants with psychosomatic
problems didn4t deviate significantly from the average. For their child-
ren, the second generation, the deviation was significant. The third
generation was average again in this respect. The hypothesis was that
the emmigrants still had their identity brought with them from the old
country. Their children belonged to two worlds ( language, habits,
norms, rules etc ) with consequences for their psychosomatic system. The
next generatin was integrated, belonged and had their identity. I am not
sure I could find the sources again, it4s ages since. But I remember
that back in the first half of the sixties for this reason we decided
not to try an early bilingual bringing up of our children. Whether it
was an optimal decision or not, I think we4ll never know. I still tend
to this opinion.

IMHO, the question of identity is of overwhelming importance for the
development of a personality. Whether secular or religious education,
both can be tolerant or intolerant. There are tolerant atheists, catho-
lics, jews, protestants and what you have. And they are the minority.
And there are intolerant atheists, catholics, jews, protestants and what
you have. The majority.

And, of course, indeed, we can4t start all over...
Take care
Miklos

In article >, Gabor Fencsik
> writes:

Meet the new thread; same as the old thread

>Subject:       Peddling Snake Oil
>From:  Gabor Fencsik >
>Date:  Fri, 2 May 1997 13:13:52 -0700
>
>Sam, you are being incoherent.

If this were true, you would not have wasted time responding to what I
wrote, especially since you bitched at the outset about me dragging you
into a pissing contest. Maybe you're in over your head on this one. You
really sound much more sincere trying to make Jozsef Torgyan sound like a
Central European version of Gerald Ford.

> If I assert that by calling a man's beliefs
>"spiritual snake-oil" you demean, bash, deprecate, denigrate, and abuse
>that person on account of his religion, then you cannot answer me by
>proving that the man's religion is in fact spiritual snake oil.

Hot diggity dog -- straw man argument! I haven't tried to prove the man's
religion is spiritual snake oil. I have, in fact, challenged the man on
his chosen expression of his religious impulse. Kristof seems to have
grasped this. You're still struggling. Come to the alter, son!

> You are
>merely changing the subject.  What either of us thinks of the Book of
>Mormon and the prophecies contained therein is neither here nor there.

Then why do you assert that it does? If you really believed this, you
wouldn't have sniped at Joe and I for supposedly being bigoted toward
religion.

>
>> Do you really think that, at first blush, the Mormon line that Jesus
>> nipped off after the resurrection and re-appeared in the Americas and
that
>> an angel told Joseph Smith where to find golden tablets with the whole
>> story written on them wouldn't sound, uh, slightly unlikely to the
average
>> Hungarian who hasn't heard it before?
>
>I would have loved to hear a first-hand account of what it was like
trying
>to sell this stuff to Hungarians, but you chased Kristof away before I
>could find out.  You also have to take into account that Hungarians
>have been fed a whole lot of poppycock under the rubric of Scientific
>Socialism, and developed a rather strong immune system as a result.

Apparently, judging from one of his recent posts, he tried to make it
sound like Joseph Smith was the victim of summary justice at the hands of
the government, in this case soldiers. Given the role of an
unrepresentative government in supressing the Hungarian nation during
various points in its history, I'd say this was pretty shrewd marketing on
the part of the Latter-Day Saints. I'd never heard the soldier angle
before. Most accounts of Smith's demise say he was plucked from a jail in
Illinois (Carthage? I can't recall)  and hanged, along with his brother,
Hyrum, by a lynch mob. If I remember rightly -- and I may not -- Smith had
ordered the printing press of a rival group of Mormons challenging his
leadership destroyed and this precipitated his arrest and the subsequent
necktie party.

>
>> You'll also need to get on your high horse with Mark Twain for calling
>> the Book of Mormon "chloroform in print." Maybe you can get "Roughing
It"
>> banned from the shelves of your local library.
>
>This is out of line.  I never advocated banning anything.  I merely
>objected to a specific debating technique in a specific context.

Glad you enjoyed it. Always happy to oblige. Not that it will ever get
your attention long enough to reconsider your original position. I'm not
sure dynamite could do that.

>> P.S. -- What do you do when the Mormon kids arrive at your doorstep,
>> Gabor? Show up at the local stake the next week with genealogical
>> chart in hand? Lie to them and tell them you believe every word
>> they're saying? Slam the door in their faces?
>
>As I said, they don't go door-to-door around here.  The Jehovah's
>witnesses do.  When they show up, we have a very short conversation, to
>which I contribute exactly six words: "Thank you, I am not interested."
>I recommend smiling while you say that.

They're pretty thick on the ground here, too. One thing I like about the
Witnesses is their congregations here tend to be very mixed ethnically --
black, white, Latino. At least you don't have to worry about me showing up
on your doorstep anytime soon with a copy of the Book of Common Prayer.
Unless, of course, you'd like me to. I could probably take a week off in
June and fly out to California...
Sam Stowe






"That boy, Frank -- he lives inside
his own heart. That's an awful big
place to live in..."
-- Karl Childers

Sam Stowe replies to something I wrote on Mormon-bashing:

>> You are merely changing the subject.  What either of us thinks of the
>> Book of Mormon and the prophecies contained therein is neither here nor
>> there.
>
> Then why do you assert that it does? If you really believed this, you
> wouldn't have sniped at Joe and I for supposedly being bigoted toward
> religion.

I am lost.  What do you say I am asserting?  What is the "it" in your
first sentence?  If "does" is a backward reference, then what is its
referent?  What is the point exactly?  If it might put your mind at ease,
I will solemnly affirm that I do not consider you bigoted.  I am happy
to oblige.  If I thought you were bigoted, I would not be talking to you.
Q.E.D.  I still do not think it is wise or proper to challenge a religious
person on matters of his faith (notice I said matters of faith), since it
puts the person thus challenged in an untenable position: the only way
he can avoid charges of proselytizing is to stay silent.

In any case, Kristof has reappeared and is quite capable of speaking for
himself, so I'll stop trying to speak for him.

The interesting thing about proselytization is that in spite of the
best intentions of the proselytizer, it is a two-way street.  The young
men may leave with grand plans for converting the heathen of the backwoods,
but it is not at all certain in encounters of this sort who will end up
influencing whom.  It is quite possible that once the Mormon religion
takes root in Hungary -- as of now, just one in 5,000 Hungarians belong
to the Mormon church -- it may take on a very different hue from the
mother church in America.  For example, the Mormons here in America are
strictly conservative in social matters such as abortion, women's rights,
gay rights, prohibition of mood-enhancing substances, etc.  I suspect
some of the vehement attacks that greeted Kristof here are due to fears
that the Mormon church might export its politics along with its theology.
But there is no telling how the views of the Hungarian branch of Mormonism
may evolve in these matters.

A good example is the radical difference between the politics of the
Latin American branch of Catholicism, and the political role the Church
plays in France or Poland.  An example closer to hand is the religious
movement in Hungary called the Assembly of Faith.  As far as I know,
they are an offshoot of one of the charismatic evangelical protestant
denominations in America, so logically one would expect to find them
somewhere on the nationalist right of the political spectrum.  As it
happens, in the early years of their existence, during the final decade
of the Kadar era, they were the subject of heavy police pressure and
official harassment.  The only people who were willing to stand up
for them were the human rights activists of the Samizdat movement,
who took up their cause along with dissident Catholic factions and
other religious non-conformists.  This created a long term political
alliance, which in the end led to a situation where members of the
Assembly of Faith have become prominent members and supporters of
the Free Democrats, the party founded in 1989 by the same samizdat
activists.  The most visible among them is Peter Hack, a member of
Parliament, head of some powerful parliamentary committees, who is
also a high official of the church.  The position of the Free Democrats
in social matters is fairly liberal, and the Assembly of Faith is happily
going along with it.  Something similar may happen to the Mormons after a
few year's exposure to the Hungarian climate.  Or is it the water?

-----
Gabor Fencsik

On Thu, 8 May 1997, MDtoCEO wrote:

> Governor Lilburn Boggs had earlier instituted an extermination order which
> waived the criminal offense for killing a Mormon.  My recollection is --
> and this may not be accurate -- that that order is still on the books,
> along with some laws making it illegal to have sex on the second floor of
> a building, or some such nonsense.

Having once taken an oath of allegiance to the state of Illinois, pledging
to defend its Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic, I must
take strong exception to calling the law banning second-floor sex "some
such nonsense".  It is high time that something be done about second-floor
sex and similar perverse practices.  You have to draw the line somewhere.
If you let them get away with second floor sex, then there is no telling
where they will stop.  I say it's time for someone to take a stand on
this before it's too late.

> In addition, when I call up the newsgroup list, it tells me I have so
> many unread messages, but when I look at the messages, I invariably
> find fewer listed than the list indicated.  What is up?

Some newsreaders have a configuration option to set the maximum number
of articles to be downloaded at a time.  If the number of unread articles
is greater than this, then you will get a truncated view of the newsgroup.
Your mission is to find this configuration parameter and change it.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

In article >, jeliko
> writes:

>The latter was the first big US raid on Budapest.

Jeliko, is there anything printed in English that details the American
bombings of Hungary during World War II? I have an elderly friend who was
a waist-gunner in a B-17 and flew several combat missions in eastern
Europe. If I can show him specific dates, his memory is good enough that
he can remember the details of the missions his crew participated in.
Sam Stowe

"That boy, Frank -- he lives inside
his own heart. That's an awful big
place to live in..."
-- Karl Childers

So, what would you do differently? Eva B.
>
I would give an identity to my children.  One of my daughter's best
friends are also a mixed couple, only the husband is the renegate Jew
(from Britain) and the wife secular protestant (Canadian).  We spent a
few weekends together when they came up visit us in our cottage and she
was expecting their first baby.  They planned to do as we did - no
religion, no nothing.  I told her we tried to do this and it didn't work.
They took my advice and decided the children will grow up protestant. You
know, Eva, it works when both parents come from identical roots.  I have
a lot of secular Jewish friends where there was no problem.  Their
secular Jewish children married catholic girls and decided that the
children would be catholic.  They know that their fathers are Jewish, but
they are catholic.  They even come to the Seders every year.  But they
are catholic.  I don't speak now of a lot of religious stuff, just some
tradition.  But, I have to admit, my husband always said he would do
nothing diffently.  Anyway, we can't start all over can we?

Agnes