In article > Eva Durant
> writes:
>Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 09:04:40 +0000
>From: Eva Durant >
>Subject: Re: RFE/RL

>I did not declare any such happiness, I'm afraid I lump them with the
>others.


>>
>> Eva,
>> Yet you seem quite happy with the Romanian security service's explanation of
>> the events in the original report.
>>
>>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>> Norbert Horvat

No, what I meant was that obviously you believed their explanation of the
event, over that of the Austrians.  What was your basis for this belief?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Norbert Horvat

> It is strange to read that from somebody who faithfully pays her debt to
> a regime that is passe.
>
Just pointing out false impressions -  if you look
objectively at my postings, they were not exactly complementary.
Seems to me, that those who actually lived in both Hungary and in the
West after 56, appear to be more objective in their opinions -
When I first visited the West (1972);
- my relations in France were surprised that I eat meat regularily
- that we learn other things than the Capital
- etc
When I came to live here first time in 73, it was my turn to
be surprised - the Hungarian urban myth of rich west did not hold
in your poor districts. Yes the rich was richer, than your Hungarian
rich, but the poor wasn't all that much different, I dare say in
some respect worse off. All I am keep saying: just because totalitarian
whatever collepsed eventually, doesn't mean, that capitalism will
go on forever.  Or it should.      I want a decent argument,
not a put down in the old frame of "you are mistaken dear".
Convince me. I'm ready. More comfortable than being a boat-rocker.
(wicked or otherwise) 

On Mon, 12 Dec 1994 13:35:01 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>>
>> --Actually, wars are not good for the market.  Other than arms
>> dealers, most capitalists oppose them.
>
>There must be too many armdealers/manufacturers/shareholders then.
>
>> even though I believe you to be among the mistaken.
>
>I listen! Where exactly am I wrong?

--Well, on this point for instance.  If war was such a blessing to
capitalism, why haven't General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler been pressing
for it in Bosnia?  It would look like a sure-fire way of making big
bucks long term.  War tears the hell out of factories, railroads and
highways.  It kills workers and customers.  We had to be dragged into both
world wars.  Viet Nam wasn't supposed to get out of hand, but it did,
and the capitalist class didn't like it but was stuck with it on account
of that damn LBJ.

Charles

The seriousness of the Austrian Counterintelligence Services's
allegations regarding the RIS's targeting of pro-Hungarian activists is
underscored by the front-page articles in the EUROPEAN. #238, Dec 8,
1994 with the headline; "Superspy plans final statement after sons die."
Here is a short excerpt:

"A Polish colonel exciled in the United States and widely regarded as the
West's most important military spy of the Cold War is planning to
release a statement soon which could throw a rare, new light on one of
the darkest periods of European history.

The statement by Colonel Ryszard Kuklinski, who is now living in the US
under an assumed name, will, he says, "be my last public disclosure".

Timed for 13 December, on the 13th anniversary of the declaration of
martial law in Poland, Kuklinski's statement comes after the deaths of
his two sons in separate but mysterious circumstances earlier this year.

Many of Kuklinski's friends and acquaintances believe that the deaths,
not disclosed until now, were the work of rogue agents in the former KGB
and the Polish secret police. The last time Kuklinski spoke publicly was
to Polish veterans in October 1993 - a month before his first son died.

He was one of the most important agents in the annals of espionage.  "I
know that he never asked for money. He acted out of patriotism," said
Richard Davies, the former US ambassador to Poland.

...The fate of his sons, both in their thirties, was disclosed by
Polish emigres in Britain and the US, and by Richard Davies. They felt
that it was more than a coincidence that both of them have been killed,
Boguslaw in a yachting disaster off Miami, Florida, on New Year's Day,
and Waldemar six months later in a Virginia car accident that looked
like a suicide.

Described as the most important spy of his era, Kuklinski, in his
capacity as an officer with the Warsaw Pact high command, was able to
pass on more than 30,000 documents during a career in the shadows that
spanned 1970 to 1981.

.. The prize among these was the Warsaw Pact order of battle, the
overarching plan which the Soviet forces and their east European allies
would have implemented in the event of war in Europe.

In the words of Zbigniew Brzezinski, national security advisor to former
president Jimmy Carter, and later special advisor to Ronald Reagan:
"Colonel Kuklinski rendered a uniquely important service to the cause of
the free world and to Poland's liberation in particular."


----------------------
C.K. Zoltani

Eva Durant in response to Greg:
> >
> > Oh, pish.  We are quite tolerant of every kind of crank and kook
> > here.  Surely you've noted that in your own experience with Americans.
> >
> > --Greg

> Exactly. Everything alternative is crank and kook automatically,
> without a serious consideration. The chinese had similar attitudes
> a bit while back... 

Has anybody noticed how difficult is for dogmatist to catch some meanings?

Regards,Jeliko.

d.a. writes:

> when referring to people, the noun is "ignoramus""ignoramus" and the adjectiv
e
> is "ignorant".

I hesitate to dispute ignorance with an expert; but you are wrong on
both counts, according to Webster's Third New International Dictionary.

--Greg
PS When writing in English, the leading word of a sentence is
capitalized, as is the 1st person personal pronoun

Eva Durant writes:
> I wasn't aware I was disagreeing in this instance... must be
> instinctive... Just because you paranoid, doesn't mean that I am
> not after you... (I didn't know the Party was checking ones' ebado
> payments...)
> Eva 

Yes, they did. I knew a Fako elvtars who was in charge of the ebs business.

Jeliko.

Eva Durant to Charles:
. That's why you happily tolerate
> them, no threat of change in your cosy setup, where you are
> doing very well ('cause God loves you and you are clever)
> and sod everyone else on Earth.  For your God's sake, you cannot
> leave it to the chaos of the market, you end up with wars
> and the ultimate Big Bang! And in this Marx is as right as ever.
> Your sister on Earth.  

Is not it fascinating that somebody who claims to distrust ALL government
(albeit mostly the elected ones) agencies,and has a sloppy regard for the
law, wants a Marxian government to solve all of the worlds problems?

Jeliko, maybe the monkey's uncle.

>--Not quite.  Newt Gingrich is a kook and a crank, yet some
>take him seriously.
>Charles

Charles
I must stand up for the other side.  New and radical ideas are usually
 considered
crazy, yet ofter gain acceptance once they are examined.  For example, the
 Gingrich`
proposal about taking babies away from unfit parents and putting them in
orphanages, instead of paying endless wellfare to the mothers, is not so nuts.
If you have ever seen a tv report on life in urban housing projects, where drug
s
are everywhere, you'd have likely seen kids raising themsleves, or an older
 child
taking care of the younger ones.  For all practical purposes, there are no
 parents,
and the kids grow up without supervision, guidance, and caring adults.  Putting
such kids in SMALL orphanages or group homes would provide some of what they ar
e
missing.  No question adoption would be better, but we must provide what we can
,
since rehabilitating the parents would take years, if it ever happens, and the
 kids
suffer in the mean time.  ALso, hte ACLU would be all over any intervention in
 the
day to day parenting by these unfit parents.  It might be best to take them, bu
t
 I
believe a decision can only come after some study, to make sure the resources
 are there
to take care of these kids once they are taken away from their parents.  At
 least
this radical idea deserves consideration, but only because the current situatio
n
is so dire.

Paul

According to the preliminary results Ja1nos Szabo1, the nominee of the
Smallholders (Torgya1n) and MIE1P (Csurka) coalition got 5.8% of the vote in
the Budapest mayoral election which was won by the incumbent Ga1bor Demszky
(SZDSZ, 35.6%) who was followed by the "new right" (MDF-FIDESZ-KDNP)
candidate Ja1nos Latorcai (29.6%) with Etele Bara1th (MSZP) a strong third
(25,6%). In the Budapest city council, MSZP has 31 seats, SZDSZ 19,
MDF-Fidesz-KDNP 19, and FKGP-MIE1P has 7. Only one MIE1P-endorsed candidate
won (in an "old right" coalition with MDF, KDNP, and FKGP) in the 23
districts, but not, I am happy to say, in District II.

Andra1s Kornai

 () wrote:


>Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 16:05:04 EST
>From: 
>Subject: subscribe
>
>Please subscribe me to the Hungary list, thanks, Cecil
>Eby
----------------------------------
You don't need to subscribe. You already have. This is not a
mailing list, it is the usenet news group called
bit.listserv.hungary. It is worth monitoring, and it seems you
are monitoring it already. Stay tuned, the future holds
intriguing topics for us.

This newsgroup is not moderated, but the commentaries on just
about every subject by dedicated people such as Joe Pannon and
Zoli
make this newsgroup worthwhile.

By the way guys, whatever happened to soc.culture.magyar? Did
it die on the operating table?

I can give you the names of two mailing lists that deal with
Hungarian concerns, but I haven't seen any activity on them
since I subscribed in mid-November. You can signup by sending
e-mail to , and in the body of the message write:
SUBSCRIBE STUD-VM firstname lastname
-or-
SUBSCRIBE MET-PARL firstname lastname

Again, let me stress, if you really want to keep in touch and
stay in the know, stay tuned to this usenet group

----------------------------
Gabe Egri
Markham, Ontario, Canada

Re: Statistics and life expectancy

Statistics are not easily available before 1950 on such matters as
consumption. Certainly 1950 was not a "normal" year but I very much doubt
that the 1940s or 1930s had been any more normal; i.e. more prosperous. As
the matter of fact, Hungary recuperated remarkably well between 1945 and 1949
especially in agricultural production. I am almost certain that 1952 was
worse than 1950, because of the disastrous economic policies of the Rakosi
regime. I have statistics for the intervening years too; that is, between
1950 and 1986 and the upshot of it all is that consumption in all categories
went up considerably all along. The fact is that Hungarians were getting
better off in the last thirty or forty years and accordingly they were eating
better, or at least what is considered to be better: more meat, more eggs,
etc. When it comes to alcohol and tobacco consumption I am not sure that 1950
is not as good a year as any other for comparison purposes.

Eva Balogh

I'm posting this on behalf of a friend having trouble getting outgoing
Usenet posts to work.  You may reply to him directly at  or post
to this newsgroup.   Thank you
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
My daughter is nine years old and her school has a project to find out
information about Christmas in different countries where the children's
family may have some roots.  My daughter had a great- grandmother who was
Hungarian and so her country to get information about is Hungary.
Unfortunately, all of her great-grandparents and grandparents are deceased
and the sources of information in our local library are of no help on this
subject.

It would be great to get some brief information based on personal knowledge
about how Christmas is celebrated in Hungary, especially from people who may
also know how it is the same or different from the customs of celebrating
Christmas in the USA.  Of special interest would be information like the
Hungarian name for Santa Claus, whether he is the same kind of fellow we
know (round and happy), whether there is a Santa's workshop or otherwise how
all the toys are made, are there reindeer and a sleigh (or how else does
Santa travel); are there special customs to celebrate the day (or night, or
week) before Christmas, as well as Christmas Day; are there any special
costumes or apparel that is traditional to wear in Hungary at Christmas
time; are there are ny special religious traditions or celebrations in
connection with celebrating the birth of Christ; is there any type of food
or drink that Hungarians make or use to celebrate Christmas, and what are
they (any recipes that we could try would also be appreciated); and are
there any special songs or music that Hungarians associate with Christmas?

While I am sure that there are some books (some where, if not in our local
library) about this subject, it would be a lot more meaningful to get some
brief comments and insights from real people about their experience,
especially if the way that Christmas is celebrated in Hungary has changed
(or not changed) during the lifetime of the person giving the information.
In anticipation of that information, thank you very much, and a Merry
Christmas and Best Wishes for the New Year to you!

Earlier I did some careless name dropping. I singled out Joe
Pannon and Zoli as two people whose voices are heard regularly
on this newsgroup.

I don't wish to take anthing away from this witty pair, whose
contributions on whatever subject, be it political, social or
simply trivial are a pleasure to read.

I realized as an afterthought, that I may offend other
contributors who are just as worthy of mention. Andras Kornai,
Eva Balogh and Charles Vamossy are superlative political
commentators.

It would be impossible to name everyone whose contribution
keeps the spirit going.  Whether the subject is the war in
Bosnia, the local elections in Budapest, or the merits of
"rakott krumpli" and "to2po2rtyu2s poga1csa" as opposed to bran
flakes and marmalade, this newsgroup provides an incentive to
Hungarians of all flavour to stay tuned.

So stay tuned and keep the wisdom flowing.

> --------------------------------------------------------------
Gabe Egri
Markham, Ontario, Canada

Just a reminder that Edward R. Hamilton, Bookseller, Falls Village, CT
06031-5000 has sometimes George Lang's Cuisine of Hungary (9.95) and
also a Culinary Arts Institute's Hungarian Cookbook (3.95).  I just
bought this one and have not tried it out, but did notice that one
third of the recipes are in the "cookies, pastries and desserts" area,
which seems about right...  George Lang's is good, with historical
background, a help when explaining some of the dishes to
non-Hungarians.  Elizabeth.

>And let us look into canonizing Dr. Arthur Klatzky of the UCLA
>medical school whose pioneering work suggested that a couple of belts
>a day was better than either heavy drinking or no drinking.
>Charles

Saint Klatzky of Sour Mash - has a nice ring, don't it?

Paul

If there is someone in the UK willing to help someone
practice Magyar pronounciation, contact Tony Maltby
at:
        

He has been studying from a book, but needs pronounciation
help.

Paul

Thanks to all those who responded to my question about the WWW addresses,
which looked strange to me.  I will try the suggestions, and bother you
again if I run into trouble.

Thanks,
        Paul

Would someone please send the address of one of the Magyar language lists to
this guy:

        From: "Tineke van Stipriaan." >

He is interested in reading Magyar for practice, and I don't have those
 addesses.
Was HIX one of them?

Thanks,
        Paul

In article >, Andras Kornai
> writes:

[deleted]... Smokers die earlier which saves
>significant amounts on Social Security. Also, their medical care is actually
>cheaper, because they are less exposed to the most expensive old-age
>diseases (having died earlier, statistically). To be old and frail is more
>expensive than to die of lung cancer relatively young, and there are also
>hidden costs to society (such as the traffic accidents caused by elderly
>drivers, the biggest risk group after teenagers) which are eliminated by
>earlier death. There is a net budgetary gain even without the sin taxes.
>
>Andra1s Kornai

Andras:  Duke Univ. economist Kip Viscusi makes the same observation.  There
is brief article about him, "Puff Price", _Newsweek_  page 6, Dec. 12, 1994)

   "Lung cancer and heart disease caused by smoking require an average of 55
    cents per pack of cigarettes sold, and they drive up life insurance
    premiums by 14 cents a pack. But on the other side of the ledger, Viscusi
    finds that each pack smoked saves America $ 1.19 in pension and social
    security payments, and 22 cents in nursing home expenses."

Obviously, Hungarian societal costs would be lower as the cost of medical
care, nursing home care would cost less, and pension benefits in Hungary
are lower. Nevertheless, a parallel situation exists in Hungary as well.

Perhaps this is the reason why there was no serious antismoking campaign in
the planned economy of Hungary: the more people smoked the lower the
expenditures on health care and pensions. Could this have been the plan?

I must say ( and as a non-smoker, so I am obviously prejudiced in this), both
you and Prof. Viscusi overlooked several economic factors in the societal
and economic costs of smoking.  Smoking colleagues, employees at my
workplace, a library, seem to be less productive.  Once I had a secretary
who smoked one and a half packs a day  at work.  Since she was not allowed to
smoke in a library public service area, she left her desk for the smoking room
or for the toilet every 15 minutes.

The above observation notwithstanding,  there are many talented, and
productive people who smoke.  Some of these people die early, 10-15 years
before they can retire, hence society's investment in their education, and
the benefit of their accumulated work experience is lost to society.  A
acquaintance, an assistant director of an institute of the Hungarian Academy of
Sciences, died two years ago in his mid-40's from lung cancer.  Apart from the
tragic loss to his family and friends, his early departure from life signified
an inestimable loss to Hungarian science and economy.

Smokers who are lucky to avoid lung cancer, but who succumb to the
protracted suffering from emphysema, retire early on disability pensions,
hence their potential economic contribution is lost to society.

But let's not place all the blame on smoking and smokers. The Hungarian diet
is another major factor in the shorter life expectancy of Hungarians.  Food and
alcohol were relatively cheap, affordable pleasures of the goulash communism
in Hungary.  Overindulgence in food and drinking may have been more of a
severe problem in Kobanya than on the Rozsadomb.

In another letter to this list (Re: gulyas recipies) I speculated that the
recommended lard in the gulyas recipies could be a contributing factor to
the shorter life expectancy of Hungarians.  And I bet they use more lard in
the diet in Kobanya than on the Rozsadomb.

Well, the gulyas, and any meat dish, nowdays is less and less affordable in
Hungary.  Will this reduce the diet related health risks?  Or will
everybody revert to eating lard sandwich for lunch (and dinner?)

Victor Marx

Gabor, en is megneztem az en archivumomat (ez a szo valahogy nem stimmel
ide...) - es ott sem talalom a Bibo postingot - mig ellenben erre bukkantam.
Meg tudnad mondani hogy honnan ideztel?

vera

On Mon, 4 Oct 1993 23:45:23 PDT, Gabor Fencsik wrote:

>Earlier today I wrote:
>
>> For the benefit of readers unfamiliar with Bibo's life, he was fired
>> from his mid-level job in the Ministry of Interior and arrested on 16
>> October 1944 for the crime of issuing unauthorized mixed marriage
>> certificates which, for Hungarian Jews, meant the difference between
>> deportation and survival in those times.  He spent 10 days in prison,
>> got released and spent the next few months underground.  This was only
>> a foretaste of his years in prison under the Kadar regime, followed by
>> decades of blacklisting.
>
>Having returned home from work I checked the biographical data and it turns
>out I have planted two errors in the above paragraph.  Bibo's job was in
>the Ministry of Justice, Department of Civil Law and Public Administration.
>I got the arrest date right but Bibo was actually freed by the SS, "pending
>further measures", on the 20th.  Everything else checks out.
>
>I apologize for posting erroneous information.
>
>-----
>Gabor Fencsik