Ferenc > wrote at Mar 18, 95 08:05:48 pm
under subject 'Re: Southern Slovakia in 1938-19'

>
>   has treated us to a long litany of alleged Hungarian
> wrongdoing in "Southern Slovakia"  during the half-dozen years the area was
> again part of Northern Hungary as a result of the Vienna arbitration agreed
> to by the two countries.

Thank you, you're right, but CS agreed with Vienna arbitrage (and the result
of it) only under German pressure. Ferenc - and how about Trianon?
I heard that Hungary agreed with Trianon. Am I wrong?
And you maybe forgot to write about 'undeclared war' in March 1939.
It took Slovaks next area at that time.

  The piece lists several complaints of Slovaks who
> felt their rights to their children to be educated in their mother tongue
> were violated.
>
> Unfortunately, in the light of later events in that long-suffering part of
> Central Europe in later years make the complaints listed there seem almost
> laughingly trivial.  As the war was ending and the area came under
> Czechoslovak administration for the second time in 25 years, the treatment of
> Hungarians was harsher.  Not only were they not allowed to have their
> children educated in their mother tongue (even in regions where they were in
> overwhelming majority), but ALL schools were closed for Hungarian children
> for several years.  Yes, the children of Hungarians were locked out of
> Czechoslovakia's schools until 1948.  In the meantime, tens of thousands of
> Hungarians were either deported to distant areas of the country or simply
> ejected from the country across the border into Hungary with only a few
> belongings.  To this day, they have not been compensated.

Ferenc - you could realize that it was only a consequence. You could
read about a reason - how Magyars behaved to Slovaks in time of WWII
in this area. You can think about the situation of Magyar minority in CS
after Trianon. And why did there come such change in relation of CS rep.
to Hu minority? It was only the consequence.

> I think that the present situation of minorities' lack of educational
> opportunities and use of their mother tongue in Slovakia would be a much more
> fruitful subject for discussion.

If you are interested in the present situation you can start a discussion
about it.
And what about such things in Hungary? Is all correct in school system?
When you told about 'lack' - did you think that situation in Hungary is
better?
And did you want to compare schools for minorities in Hungary and in Slovakia?

> Could it be that the listing of minor grievances of half a century ago are
> used to mask today's mistreatment of Hungarians in that area?

Could it be that 70-years Hungarian tellings about the national oppresion
of Magyars in neighbouring states were used to mask of bad taking
care of all minorities in Hungary?

> Ferenc
>

Jozef Simek

C.K.Zoltani stated that,

> ...our pilots are second to none by all yardsticks of measurement, the kill
>ratios in all the engagements from the Korean War to the present should
>convince any skeptic who may question the rationale for the purchase of US
>manufactured planes.

        Have you taken into account the standards of the enemies pilots
involved and the types of aircraft used in each case? Any what exactly do mean
by "kill ratios" - the number of pilots killed to the number returning, or the
number of kills made per pilot. Surely if it is the latter, then that would
very much depend on the number of sorties carried out and the class of
opponent making direct comparisons difficult.

        Russian aircraft are not regarded very highly due to their old
electrical technology. But recently (namely the SU-31 (?)) Russian aircraft
have started to be modernised with fly-by-wire controls, et cetera. I am sure
that once up-to-date, they will be very keen competitors due to their
very superior manuverability to any fighter in the world.



Karcsi

On Mon, 20 Mar 1995, zcapl74 wrote:

>         Have you taken into account the standards of the enemies pilots
> involved and the types of aircraft used in each case? Any what exactly do mea
n
> by "kill ratios" - the number of pilots killed to the number returning, or th
e
> number of kills made per pilot. Surely if it is the latter, then that would

I am not sure how Zoltani meant kill ratio, but in general usage it
refers to the number of enemy airplane(s) expected to be shot down before
one of your own airplane is lost.  In Korea, the kill ratio was 12 to 1
for the U.S.

At the start of the Viet Nam war it was only 2 to 1 until the
introduction of new generation F-series airplanes. Indeed it was the
technology not the pilots.

>
>         Russian aircraft are not regarded very highly due to their old
> electrical technology. But recently (namely the SU-31 (?)) Russian aircraft
> have started to be modernised with fly-by-wire controls, et cetera. I am sure
> that once up-to-date, they will be very keen competitors due to their
> very superior manuverability to any fighter in the world.
>
> Karcsi

While the MIGs were clearly under estimated* please do not forget the
fly-by-wire control is an early 70's technology.


*It is commonly used in the U.S. During World War II the official U.S.
military doctrine stated that the Sherman is better than Pzkwfz V. better
known as Panther. In reality the kill ratio 5 to 1 in favor of the
Panthers and King Tigers were virtually indestructible by Shermans, even
KV(s) had hard time to kill a King Tiger.

From: ENIKO M BASA >
X-To: 
Subject: AHEA CONFERENCE

The AMERICAN HUNGARIAN EDUCATORS ASSOCIATION will  hold  its  20th
annual conference in Montreal, Canada, June 2-4.  Those interested
in presenting a  paper should contact Eniko  M.  Basa,  707 Snider
Lane, Silver Spring, MD or (301)384-4657; Internet:
  as  soon   as  possible.   For   more  details,
particularly on  logding,  etc.  contact Hungarian  Chair,  U.  of
Toronto,  21  Sussex  Ave., Toronto, Ont.  Canada  M5S  1A1.
All academic subjects, information on teaching and  research
resources will  be welcome.  Average length  of presentation is  30
minutes. Traditionally papers  are presented in English,  but
contributions in Hungarian are also accepted.


--
http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard
email : 

RE: comments from Andras Kornai, George Antony and Karcsi (zcap174)
    on the subject of Hungarian "purchases" of inferior war materiel

What Andras as well as George and Karcsi forget is that military
equipment, such as warplanes, are bought to deter an aggressor or to
fight, and to win wars. One tries to leverage one's resources to the
utmost. A qualitative advantage can make up for quantitative
deficiencies. A small country, such as Hungary, to have any chance for
success in a military confrontation, must have the best equipment to
survive. If it has the "same equipment" as its attackers, especially who
may have superiority in numbers, the outcome is a foregone conclusion.

Kill ratios usually refer to the results of aerial engagements. How many
aircraft were destroyed versus one's own losses in dogfights. There, the
record is clear. Russian equipment, and perhaps their flight training,
has proved to be vastly inferior to that of the US Air Force.

Andras' argument that "the MiG price/performance ratio has a compelling
advantage, since the price is effectively zero" is incorrect. The huge
Russian debt owed to Hungary, i.e. the people of Hungary, once repaid,
could be more effectively used to rebuild the infrastructure of the
country ruined by forty years of Communist mismanagement, than give
political cover for the acquisition of outdated weapons. Agreeing to the
"purchase", i.e. the dumping, of inferior equipment only benefits the
Russians and their minions. Also, having such equipment, does not
further the prospects of admission into NATO.

C.K. ZOLTANI

Csaba Zoltani (ACISD/CTD) wrote:

: ...The huge
: Russian debt owed to Hungary, i.e. the people of Hungary, once repaid,
: could be more effectively used to rebuild the infrastructure of the
: country ruined by forty years of Communist mismanagement, than give
: political cover for the acquisition of outdated weapons.

To expect the Russians to pay off debt to Hungary in anything other than junk,
how realistic is this?

--Greg

Greg Grose wrote:
> Csaba Zoltani (ACISD/CTD) wrote:
> : ...The huge
> : Russian debt owed to Hungary, i.e. the people of Hungary, once repaid,
> : could be more effectively used to rebuild the infrastructure of the
> : country ruined by forty years of Communist mismanagement, than give
> : political cover for the acquisition of outdated weapons.
>
> To expect the Russians to pay off debt to Hungary in anything other than junk
,
> how realistic is this?

Of course it isn't: that was Andras Kornai's point and this is what Csaba
Zoltani fails to address.

It is all very well wanting the top of the line equipment for everything,
but if one cannot afford it one has to compromise.  Even if Hungary were
allowed to buy the latest model US warplanes she could not afford more
than a couple.  Surely, there is some minimum number of planes that is
required for being operational.

The defence budget in Hungary must compete with other social objectives in
an exceptionally difficult economic environment.  Unless there is a clear
threat to national security, defence spending is not going to be a high
priority.   Getting MIG 29s for nothing and upgrading them with western
friend-or-foe recognition gear (already on the way) and perhaps better
avionics sounds a sensible compromise to me.   The price differential is
better spent on human resources: wages and training.  For there is little
point in getting superior equipment if there is nobody to fly them, no
money for fuel and none for ammunition for training.

The military defeat of Azerbaijan by Armenia has shown that even a
numerically smaller side can defeat a larger one with identical hardware
if motivation and training is superior.  Ditto the fact that Bosnian
Muslims have been able to hold out at all against the previously numerically
as well as weapons-wise superior Serb forces.

George Antony

Csaba Orczan > writes:
>
> On 17 Mar 1995  wrote:
>
> > This message was  originally submitted by  to  the
MET-OHAZ lis
> t
> > at HUEARN. If  you simply forward it  back to the list, it  will be
distribute
> d
> > with the paragraph you are now reading being automatically removed. If
you edi
> t
> > the  contributions you  receive into  a digest,  you will  need to
remove thi
> s
> > paragraph before  mailing the results  to the list.


How can one access the Hungarian governments electronic paper?


--
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Laszlo Heckenast, London, England    |
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

On April 3rd I'm travelling to Budapest with a few friends.  There are a few
thing we would like to know and I thought this was a good place to ask for
them:

1) Are there still restrictions on importing Hungarian forints into the
country?

2) Are there any restrictions of the export of cigarettes and alcoholic
beverages to the European Union?

3) What are the 'places to be' at this very moment in Budapest (pubs, cafis,
 clubs, ...)?

I hope somebody can help with these questions and I will be very grateful if
you could.

Thanks.

Readers of the Discussion Group may be interested in a recently
published book. It is

        Dennis P. Hupchick, Conflict and Chaos in Eastern
        Europe. St. Martin's Press, New York, 1995.

>From the jacket: "The return of Eastern and Central Europe to true
independence, following the collapse of Communist rule, has reanimated
an enormous number of historical and cultural issues largely dormant
since the disasters of World War II.

Conflict and Chaos in Eastern Europe analyzes five of the most important
of these issues: the "cultural faultline" of Bosnia-Hercegovina; the
disputes over the region of Macedonia; the tensions between Hungary and
Romania over Transylvania; and the instability of Poland's eastern
borders."

The chapter,"Transylvania: The Undead Question", may be of special
interest to readers whose knowledge of Transylvania is limited.

C.K. ZOLTANI

I am interested in receiving a trial subscription.

Name: Peter Ujvagi

Fax # 419-693-4035.

Thanks.

___MAGYAR ELEKTRONIKUS TOZSDE____________________________HU-ISSN_1216-0229
HUNGARIAN ELECTRONIC EXCHANGE     copyright  1990.

BUDAPESTI ERTEKT ZSDE

I. Februari zaroarak
                            darabszam    1995.02.28.   Ft
<Agrimpex> Rt. (nev.)         121 774      13 050        1 589 150 700
<Agrimpex> Rt.(bem.)          11 001       13 050        143 563 050
<Aranypok> Rt.                43 000       6 500         279 500 000
<Balaton> Fuszert Rt.         120 000      5 500         660 000 000
<Bonbon> Hemingway Rt.        170 000      1 600         272 000 000
<Csemege> Julius Meinl Rt.    18 500       12 900        238 650 000
<Csopak> Rt. (nev.)           801 100      680           544 748 000
<Csopak> Rt. (bem.)           398 900      650           259 285 000
<Danubius> Hotels Rt.         8 000 000    920           7 360 000 000
<Domus> Rt.                   1 633 000    630           1 028 790 000
<Dunaholding> Rt. (nev.)      101 303      40 000        4 052 120 000
<Dunaholding> Rt. (bem.)      68 697       40 000        2 747 880 000
<EGIS> Rt.                    7 785 715    2 070         16 116 430 050
<Martfu> Magyar Szov.         1 071 000    2 600         2 784 600 000
<Fonix> Rt.                   165 000      1 400         231 000 000
<Fotex> Rt.                   62 328 120   177           11 032 077 240
<Garagent> Rt.                248050       2100          520905000
<Garagent> Rt.1               120000       2100          252000000
<Global> TH Rt.               3756430      1350          5071180500
<Globus> Rt.2                 229950       1250          287437500
<Globus> Rt.                  766527       1350          1034811450
<Goldsun> Rt.                 1063970      590           627742300
<Graboplast> Rt.              2282500      1110          2533575000
<Hungagent> Rt.               300000       1400          420000000
<Ibusz> Rt.                   1320500      940           1241270000
<Inter-Europa> Bank Rt.       217550       11050         2403927500
<KontraxI>rodatechnika Rt.    500000       70            35000000
<KontraxT>elekom Rt.          500000       45            22500000
<Konzum> Ker. es Ip. Rt.      2150000      740           1591000000
<Muszi> Rt.                   43000        150           6450000
<Nitroil> Rt.                 27490        16000         439840000
<Novotrade> Rt.               1068572      2250          2404287000
<Pannonflax> Rt.              447566       335           149934610
<Pannonplast> Rt.             3000000      1040          3120000000
<Pharmavit> Rt.               1765000      5800          10237000000
<Pick> Szeged Rt.             2656999      5530          14693204470
<Primagaz> Rt.                3200000      2050          6560000000
<Richter> Gedeon Rt.          16894962     1630          27538788060
<Skala-Coop> Rt. S            48163        1210          58277230
<Skala-Coop> Rt. T            3699777      1550          5734654350
<Soproni> Sorgyar Rt.         648 000      2200          1425600000
<Styl> Ruhagyar Rt.           1180000      1750          2065000000
<Sztrada> Skala Rt. (nev.)    4150         6600          27390000
<Sztrada> Skala Rt. (bem.)    29250        3000          87750000
<Terraholding> Rt. (nev.)     3600         300           1080000
<Terraholding> Rt. (bem.)     100950       300           30285000
<Zalakeramia> Rt.             1762916      1520          2679632320
<Zwack> Unicum Rt.            2000000      3500          7000000000


Befekt. alapok es a karp. jegy piaci erteke 1995. februar
(Invest. funds and comp. coupons' capitalization)


Befektetesi alapok           Zaroar (Ft)           Kapitalizacio
                             1995.02.28.           (millio Ft)
Investment funds             Closing price (HUF)   Capitalization
                             28.02.1995            (miliion HUF)
CA Befektetesi alap            9250                   1609.96
Hunnia Befektetesi alap        9300                    942.60
Budapest Elso Befekt. alap     9500                   1713.10
Premium Befektetesi alap       9400                    470.00
Piller Ingatlanbefekt. alap    320                    1024.00
Taller Befektetesi alap        9000                    660.06
Millenium Befektetesi alap     8000                    661.55
Budapest 2 Befektetesi alap    9500                   1535.76
Alpok Befektetesi alap         9550                   1850.22
Bonus Befektetesi alap         9200                   1388.87
Hunnia 2 Befektetesi alap      8650                    660.43
Horizont Befektetesi Alap      10000                   486.51
OTP I. Befektetesi Alap        10000                  2415.87
Profit Befektetesi Alap        10000                  1184.57
Arany Taller Befektetesi Alap  8500                    630.71
City Befektetesi Alap          10000                   109.08
Buda P,Ilampapir Alap          10000                   101.22
Millenium 2. Befektetesi Alap  108500                  113.38
Rezidencia Befektetesi Alap    11000                  1132.81
Piller 2. Ingatlanbefekt. alap 400                     800.00
Danubia Befektetesi alap       50                      107.64
Quaestor Ingatlan alap         10000                   706.56
Duna Befektetesi Alap          10000                   100.13
Civis Befektetesi Alap         10000                  9311.88
Budapest III. Befektetesi Ala  10000                  1096.03
Milleneum III. Befektetesi Al  10000                   216.73
Profit Plusz Befektetesi Alap  5000                    770.02
CA Novekedesi Alap             1000                    330.00

II. Analizis

Az ev masodik honapjaban a Budapesti Ertektozsde m÷kodeset a forgalom
emelkedese es az arfolyamok stabilizalodasa jellemezte. A brokercegek
kozel 5 ezer kotesben arfolyamerteken szamolva osszesen 12 milliard
forintos forgalmat bonyolitottak le. Ez januarhoz kepest 20%-os
forgalomb vulest jelent, s kedvez  az is, hogy a reszvenyek
forgalombol valo aranya 30%-rol 47%-ra emelkedett. (A reszvenyek a
t zsden jegyzett ertekpapirok neverteken szamolt ertekenek csupan
8.8%-at, a kapitalizacionak pedig 16.9%-at adjak.) A t zsde hivatalos
reszvenyindexe - a BUX - a mult honapban 4%-kal er sodott, februar
vegen 1206.4 ponton zart.



Februarban az ujonnan kibocsatott kincstarjegysorozatokon (76.8 MdFt)
tul a Hungagent Rt. alapt keemelesb l szarmazo reszvenyeinek (120
MFt) es 8 zartveg÷ ertekpapir befektetesi alap jegyeinek (12.6 MdFt)
bevezetesere kerult sor. Het kincstarjegy sorozat es az 1995/C
allamkotveny lejarata (90 MdFt) kovetkezteben osszessegeben 511
millio forinttal csokkent a t zsdere bevezetett ertekpapirok
neverteken szamolt erteke (906 milliard forint).

A mult honapban a reszvenypiacon 6.6 milliard forintos forgalom
mellett az arfolyamok tobbnyire stabilizalodtak. Januarhoz kepest a
forgalom jelent s b vulese (75%) nehany nagyvolumenu kotesnek is
koszonhet : februar elejen 1.4 millio db Danubius cserelt gazdat
reszvenyenkent 900 forintert, a honap kozepen pedig kozel 800 ezer db
Fotex, miutan a tarsasag megbizast adott reszvenyeinek t zsden
keresztuli vasarlasara. Folyamatosan jelentek meg ugyanakkor a
kibocsatok 1994-es varhato Gazdalkodasi eredmenyei, amik szamottev
javulast, novekedest mutatnak.



Tovabbra is jelent s az automatikus kereskedesbe bevezetett
reszvenyek (Danubius, Globus, Pick, Primagaz, Soproni Sorgyar,
Pannonplast, Egis, Global, Graboplast, Pharmavit, Richter Gedeon)
forgalombol valo reszesedese. Februarban a reszvenypiaci uzletek
70%-at erre a tizenegy automatikus papirra kotottek, az
arfolyamerteken szamolt forgalomban pedig aranyuk 87% volt. A 40
BET-en szerepl  reszvenytarsasagnal - mas csoportositasi szempontok
eseten is - a forgalomnak egy jelent s koncentralodasa figyelhet
meg. A bevezetesi kateDoriak alapjan szetvalasztva a cegeket a
magasabb szintu kovetelmenyeknek megfelel  14 jegyzett ceg adta az
uzletek haromnegyedet es a forgalom csaknem egeszet (92%).



A BUX kosaraban szerepl  17 papir (Danubius, Domus, Dunaholding,
EGIS, Martf÷iSorgyar, Fotex, Global, Globus, Goldsun, Graboplast,
Inter-Europa Bank, Pannonplast, Pick, Primagaz, Richter Gedeon,
Skala-Coop T, Zwack) a BET reszvenyforgalmanak
97%-at, reszvenykapitalizaciojanak pedig 81%-at adta az ev masodik
honapjaban.


A tozsdei reszvenytarsasagok atlagos piaci mutatoi a stabilizacio
kovetkezteben az alabbiak szerint valtoztak: a P/E mutato 17.21-r l
17.56-ra n tt, a P/BV a honap vegen 126 volt, az osztalekhozam
3.06-rol 2.99-re csokkent. A reszvenypiac kapitalizacioja kis
mertekben emelkedett, februar vegen 150 milliard forintot (1.3
milliard US dollar) tett ki.


Tovabbra is alacsony likviditas jellemzi a karpotlasi jegyek t zsdei
piacat. 495 millio forintos karpotlasi jegy forgalmat regisztralt a
Budapesti Ertekt zsde, a havi zaroar (305 Ft) a nevertekre (1.715 Ft)
vetitve mar csak 18%-os arfolyamnak felelt meg. (1995. januar
elejet l a karpotlasi jegy nevertekenek novekedese befejez dott, iden
a privatizacioban a fentebb emlitett kamattal novelt erteken
szamitjak be a karpotlasijegyet.)

III.Hirek

A T zsdetanacs ugyvezet  elnoke:
Czirjak Sandor

Bokros Lajos lemondasa miatt az 1995. aprilis 13-ara tervezett kozgyulesen
a meguresedett tanacstagi helyre uj tagot is kell valasztani, illetve a
haromeves ciklus lejarataig (1996. evi rendes kozgy÷lesig) a T zsde tagjai
megvalasztjak a testulet elnoket.


1995. marcius 31-en elindul a hatarid s kereskedes negy termekre:
  - a BET hivatalos reszvenyindex (BUX) kontraktus
  - a 3 honapos diszkont kincstarjegy arfolyam(3 KJ) kontraktus
   - a nemetmarka (DEM) es az amerikai dollar (USD) kontraktusok
 kereskedese minden t zsdenapon az azonnali kereskedes ideje alatt,
 11.00-11.30 oraig


A szabvanyositott hataridos kereskedes technikai lebonyolitasa jelent s
mertekben elter az azonnali piac kereskedesi rendszeretol.  Az egyes
kontraktusokra vonatkozo ajanlatokat a brokerek a kontraktus arjegyz jenek
nyujtjak be irasban, aki az ajanlatokat elektronikus ajanlati konyvbe
rogziti. A szoftver az ajanlatokat a hatarid s kereskedesi szabalyzatban
rogzitett prioritasi sorrendnek megfelel en sorba rendezi, majd a
kereskedesi algoritmus szerint megkoti azokat.  Az arjegyz  sajatszamlas
ajanlatteteli kotelezettseget vallal arra az esetre, ha a kereslet es
kinalat egyensulya atmenetileg felborul. Az arjegyzok palyazat utjan
nyertek el a piacvezetes jogat.


BUX: Argenta Top Broker Rt.
3 honapos diszkont kincstarjegy: New York Broker Budapest Kft.
DEM/HUF: Budapest Ertekpapir es Befektetesi Rt.
USD/HUF: Budapest Ertekpapir es Befektetesi Rt.

Hataridos ugyletekre szolo megbizasokat az arjegyz k mellett az erre
feijogositott tozsdetagok is elfogadnak.


P/E: 17.56 P/BV: 1.26 Div.Y.: 2.99

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