Gosztonyi's figures, by themselves, are not manipulated, but the accompanying
text is misleading. In discussing the "most shameful" periods of
twentieth-century Hungarian history on the Forum, I identified several (not
necessarily in this order, but simply chronologically): Szamuelly's Lenin
Boys and the subsequent Pronay-Hejjas atrocities; the later period of the
Horthy regime, let's say from 1939 on (i.e., Jewish laws, etc., especially
after March 1944, that is, after the German occupation when the majority of
Hungary's Jewish population was deported); the Szalasi period, 1944-1945; the
Rakosi period (1949-1955); and the early Kadar period, 1957-1963.

Eva Balogh

I read in yesterday's newspapers - a exposition
'2 years of Gabcikovo dam' (I don't know if it's the right name)
should be opened in Budapest yesterday and the same exposition took a some
time in Frankfurt am Main already.

Jozef Simek

George Antony wrote:

"Consider just the 3-4000 Serbian civilians killed in Novi Sad by Hungarian
Army units: they are not included in these statistics. As Supreme Warlord,
Horthy was responsible for his army and their actions just as Kadar was for
the actions of his party militia , the  'padded coats'.

        Two of the commanders responsible for the "Cold Days" in Ujvidek
(Novi Sad) were sentenced to death by Horthy's court martial. The 'padded
coats' were honoured with the medal "For the socialist Homeland" - for
killing at least some hundred civilians all over the country.
        More about this subject and about a lot of very interesting
historical events in Europe you can find in John F. Montgomery's book:
Hungary, the unwilling satellite. ( Magyarorszag, a vonakodo csatlos. Zrinyi
kiado, 1993 ) The author was the ambassador of the USA in Hungary from 1933-
1941.

                                                Makra Zsigmond

I know this has little to do with Hungary, but:  Can anyone confirm the story
about the statue of Lenin being removed from Prague and the next day replaced
by a billboard displaying Mick Jaggers lips?  Did this really happen?

..marc

Two Hungarian-born researchers are among the recipients of this year's
Nobel prizes. John C. Harsanyi, who received his doctorate from the
University of Budapest in 1947 and subseequently emigrated to Australia
before coming to the US, will be honored for his contributiosn to game
theory, ethics and social choice. His work sought to answer the question
of how society, made up of individuals, can best choose among
alternative choices.

In chemistry, George Olah of the University of Southern California will
be honored for his fundamental work on carbocations. These are
intermediary species in chemical reactions with lifetimes in the
microsecond range. The research has led, among others, to improved
octane rating of gasoline.

C.K. Zoltani

Adam Galambos,   (University of Northern Iowa,
Cedar Falls, IA) on 12 Oct 94 writes as follows:

>Somebody posted statistics about the number of executions in different
>political eras in Hungary. What Gosztonyi and anybody using his statistics is
>doing is manipulating with numbers in a most disgusting manner, for they are
>ignoring the number of years over which these executions occurred. If I
>remember right, Kadar was in power for a longer period of time than any of the
>others mentioned - and so it is quite natural that more executions would occur
>during the Kadar era than some preceding it.

Of course what Mr. Galambos overlooks is that these were politically
motivated judicial murders, not the execution of criminals. Only in
totalitarian systems, such as Saddam Hussein's Iraq, Cedras' Haiti or
for that matter Kadar's Hungary early in his reign, is the murder of
political opponents "quite natural". It is worthwhile to ponder why is
it that during the four terms of FDR or for that matter any of our
presidents, a time span of over two-hundred years, judicial murder of
the opposition is unknown.

C.K. Zoltani

C.K. Zoltani writes:

> ...[in the USA] judicial murder of
> the opposition is unknown.

Sacco & Vanzetti, perhaps?

--Greg

> > ...Yin the USA" judicial murder of
    > > the opposition is unknown.
    >
    > Sacco & Vanzetti, perhaps?

Add the Rosenbergs to that list...marc

I would appreciate sending me the information by E-mail about the Hungarian
electronic resources which I lost and unable to retrieve from the newsnet.

Sincerely

Zoltan Zentay

H. MARC ) wrote:
:     > > ...Yin the USA" judicial murder of
:     > > the opposition is unknown.
:     >
:     > Sacco & Vanzetti, perhaps?

: Add the Rosenbergs to that list...marc
You guys are f***ing pathetic.
Tom Sulyok

Hi,
I have several questions, regarding the compensation. I have just seen
that the Hungarian parliament has started a debate over Jewish compensation.
My questions are,

- Who got compensated in the "first round" ?
        What were the criteria for eligibility?

- If the Jews did not, what was the reason ?
        If a government is responsible for all the
        mistakes the previous government made,
        what is the difference between
        confiscation by communist
        and fascists (and anyway, what is the
        difference between them , bastards ?),
        esp., had not the Jewish property been
        confiscated by the governments
        previous to 1945, the communists would
        have taken it after 1945 .

- Should a government pay different compensation to compensate losses
  made by former governments of different ideologies?
        I do not think so .

- Nowadays, there are cca. 50,000(?) Jews in Hungary. Before the war, due to
  Hungary's very liberal treatment of Jews, they were close to a million.
  What if they, or their relatives who survived the war and the past 50+years
  will claim compensation ? Who is going to pay for that in a bankrupt country?

- How much money has the compensation already cost?

- How much more is it going to cost?
        The government just cut Ft2.2 billion from the education bill,
        in a country that has one of the worst higher
        and overall education rate in Europe.

I also have read a while ago in one of the newsgroups, that the current
Hungarian
government plans to setup a fund from the Jewish compensation money to help
to resettle Jews in Hungary from the territories of the former Soviet Union .
I have not found  any confirmation or denial about it since then, the current
parliamentary session brought this back to my memory. Any news from Hungary ?

Gotthard

This needs another viewpoint. I just came back from France and can verify
that the women there have nice ankles, I did not dare to look higher
because then I would have stepped into the dogshit on the sidewalk. Yes
there are more McDonalds on my favorite street (Avenue Victor Hugo) and
there are folks (young and old) eating there in almost the same quantity
as at the sidewalk cafes. Yes there is "French fry" available there now
also, almost in the same quantity as in Luxembourg (although not served
with pizza yet) which area is probably the home of that specialty. The
French list of bestsellers does not have many books which are available in
the US or translated into English. The autumn leaves are falling but not
as colorful in the US. The air is a little more breathable thanks to the
unleaded gas and catalytic converters, terrible American cultural
introductions. The hotel where I generally stay does not have many French
staff left, most of them are Algerians who are escaping the fundamentalist
culture. Everything is much more expensive than in the US as it was for a
number of years. The young folks are not beeing very successful buying
their own homes at a similar age as in the US. The French culture is
overwhelming, the Etoile erected to the victory of Napoleon (who lost) and
to his generals (who also lost). Talk about revisionist history on a grand
scale. The magazines are discussing the corruptness of French politicians
through the ages, so that is not a US import either.

The countryside is another story. It is peaceful (if one goes far away
from Paris to avoid particularly the weekend exodus when everybody who can
afford gets away from Paris. Visited an old church where in the last years
dry season the mayor of the hamlet discovered some old painting showing
through the whitewash. A Japonese who studied in France worked on the
restoration. Some nice painting from the XIII century. The church entry
lists the sons of the village fallen in the WWI about 30 (in WWII only
one) among them two surnamed Hongrois. (I asked the mayor to try find out
more about the family, but that will be another story.) The wines are
almost as good as from Oregon or Washington(I like those better than ones
from California) except in most places more expensive. The friend whose
country home I have spent a weekend, had a break-in earlier in the year,
they were Gypsies (probably not like the uncultured Hungarian Gypsies, but
cultured French Gypsies.)

In general France is France, very introverted. Framatom and Cogema doing
quiet business with China (much more successful than the US) and the
petrochemical companies are negotiating with Iraq (money is money), and
the American oil componies will not be favored there so that much less
competition.

The young people I have talked to, deride the US for many reasons, so I
cannot agree that American culture is spreading because of anything else
but economics. Maybe the problem in the US is caused by the many Chinese
and Italian restaurants, or should we complain about the French
restaurants in New York with their outrageous (Parisian) prices. Went to a
village butcher shop to pick up meat for the dinner, the prices about
double of that in the US. (Veal good, beef terrible $24/kg.)

I did hear French rap in one of the taxis, (he was an Arab driver). In
taxis driven by Frenchman there is still a dog flying right seat so they
can take only two people. The dogs eating from a chair in restaurants
still don't use napkins in their lap, so American culture did not overtake
them yet.

In most places the toilet paper is not shiny anymore.

As usual, France is a nice place to visit, that it is "ruined" by American
culture is not exactly correct. IMHO their is no special nationality
culture, there is only culture or the lack of it. It is interesting though
to read complaints by "liberal" folks how the people should be made to
like one thing or another just because they like it.

Of course, architecturally, the pyramid fits so well in the Louvre, or
maybe that style was not copied from the American pyramids. Thus from the
birthplace of the modern, abstract and other divergent art which was
imported into all parts of the world one has a different feeling than
expressed by some on the newsgroup.

As I said, it was nice but not as nice as coming home.

Regards,Jeliko.

"H. MARC" > writes on 14 Oct 1994:


>    > > ...Yin the USA" judicial murder of
>    > > the opposition is unknown.
>    >
>    > Sacco & Vanzetti, perhaps?

>Add the Rosenbergs to that list...marc


Absolutely wrong!

Sacco and Vanzetti were convicted of the murders of F.A. Braintree,
paymaster of a shoe factory and Alessandro Berardelli, the security
guard accompanying Mr. Parmenter, in order to rob the payroll they were
carrying. Later, in 1925, Celestino Madeiros, then sitting on death row
confessed that he had participated in the crime with the Morelli gang,
but the state Supreme Court refused to upset the verdict.

Neither the executed Soviet spies, the Rosenbergs, nor Sacco and
Vanzetti, were victims of "judicial murder of the oppopsition" as was
practiced in Kadar's Hungary after the 1956 Hungary's Fight for Freedom.

C.K. Zoltani

Tom Sulyok writes:

> You guys are f***ing pathetic.


        How can ye bloom sae fresh and fair!
      How can ye chant, ye little birds,
        And I sae weary fu' o' care!



--Greg
with apologies to Burns

C.K. Zoltani writes:

> Neither the executed Soviet spies, the Rosenbergs, nor Sacco and
> Vanzetti, were victims of "judicial murder of the opposition" as was
> practiced in Kadar's Hungary after the 1956 Hungary's Fight for
> Freedom.

I can accept that, but it's not hard to find responsible people who
will tell you that there have been cases where a defendant's political
beliefs were the main cause of prosecution, including some capital
cases resulting in execution.  So we still have cases of "judicial
murder", even if "opposition" has to be taken a little more loosely.

Joe Hill just came to mind, too.

--Greg

Upto now the compensation law took inro account at which date
the confiscation happened. In the first round I think they went back until
1946.
If we wait enough the morva's will be compensated too.
Gyuri

Greg writes:

> Tokaji Aszu is considered a desert wine today but regal households served
it
> as a wine to drink in the Middle Ages. I've read in a book about the
wines
> of Tokaj that more than 1 liter per head was consumed at royal feasts! I
> find this amazing and were it not for the credibility of the source, also
> hard to believe.
>                                 ***
Well, let me see, if the source was there, how reliable could he be after
consuming a liter of aszu? Of course in the middle ages a liter could have
been much larger than today.

Regards,Jeliko.

Subject: Re Gosztony
From: Sandor Lengyel x5786, 
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 12:16:15 PDT
In article > Sandor Lengyel
x5786,  writes:


>Considering the number of years Horthy was in power, and the time
>Hungary was a place of refuge for the jewish people at the begining of
the war,

it is only a very thin veneer of politeness which prevents me from
calling this an outrageous piece of unadulterated bullshit.

the only jews allowed to stay in hungary were those who were
hungarian by citizenship or conquest. the rest were deported.

d.a.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 18:22:01 MET
From: Premek Hanus >
To: Multiple recipients of list NATODATA >
Subject: CSCE Budapest Review Conference - Journal No. 3 - 12 October 1994

  CONFERENCE ON SECURITY AND CO-OPERATION
                 IN EUROPE
      BUDAPEST REVIEW CONFERENCE 1994


                          JOURNAL No. 3


5th PLENARY MEETING (open)


1.   Date:  Wednesday, 12 October 1994 (morning)
     Opened:11.05 a.m.
     Closed:12.15 p.m.


2.   Chairman:  Mr. W. Nartus (Belgium)


3.   Subjects discussed:
     Agenda item 2: Opening statements by the representatives of
                    the participating States

     Agenda item 3: Contributions by:
                    (c)  observer States
                    (d)  Japan
                    (e)  the non-participating Mediterranean States

     Agenda item 4: Exchange of views on the implementation of
                    all CSCE commitments, future-oriented review
                    of CSCE activities, institutions, structures
                    and instruments, including examination of
                    progress and results of the negotiations in
                    the CSCE Forum for Security Co-operation;
                    consideration of proposals to enhance the
                    role of the CSCE and further strengthen its
                    capabilities


4.   Statements:
     Agenda item 2: Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan

     Agenda item 3: (c)  the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
                    (d)  Japan
                    (e)  Tunisia, Morocco

     Agenda item 4: Chairman


5.   Next meeting:
     Wednesday, 12 October 1994, at 3 p.m. in the Patria hall
     Chair:   Belgium



6th PLENARY MEETING (open)



1.   Date:  Wednesday, 12 October 1994 (afternoon)

     Opened: 3.40 p.m.
     Closed: 4.40 p.m.


2.   Chairman:  Mr. W. Nartus (Belgium)


3.   Subjects discussed:

     Agenda item 4


4.   Statements:

     United States of America, Cyprus, Switzerland, Russian
     Federation, Germany-European Union, Liechtenstein, Malta,
     Poland, United Kingdom, Portugal


5.   Next meeting:

     Thursday, 13 October 1994, at 10.30 a.m., in the Patria hall
     Chair:    Bosnia-Herzegovina




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110 00  Prague 1, Thunovska 12              Tel: (+42-2) 24311069
                                            Fax: (+42-2) 24310629
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