Dear friend,

 It's nice that you took your time to display how Hungarians weren't angels
when they were in charge. I already know that, but does that justify the acts
that go on today?? "Well they did it to us, so let's do it to them!!" Talk like
that only continues the deep divisions between two nations or peoples. Look a
couple 100km from where you are to Marshal Tito's success story then tell me if
it's justified!!! "You Ustashi Croats wiped out us Serbs in WWII, so it gives
us more than enough reason to do it to you." So your attempt to make me feel
guilty about the past isn't working and makes me wonder what kind of educator
you really are. If you send out this kind of message to kids and even your own,
then I, really, feel sorry for you and many of those students who you taught
over the years because there's no hope for them. Get some help my Dacian friend
.

Sincerely,
 Czifra Janos
john_czifra @ shi.com

The New York Times on July 30th under the headline "UN Sees Romania
Violating Sanctions" details how Romanians are openly helping the Serbs
to obtain aviation and other fuels in violation of their obligations as
members of the United Nations.

>From the article: "American officials said that while there are many
other sanction violations in the Balkan region, where private
individuals and companies are engaging in the smuggling while
governments look the other way, the violations taking place here are
being directed by senior (Romanian) officials. Three Romanian state
authorities, the American officials said, are involved in the fueling:
the state oil company, the customs administration and the aviation
agency."

.........

About the best guides for hostels and such are the "LET'S GO" travel
guides that are available from any bookstore.  The have guides to
individual countries and region like Eastern Europe...  I found that
they  were always right on the money about the best places and prices
while traveling.  They cost about 17-USD each and are well worth it.

Mark Verone
Syracuse University

On Sun, 30 Jul 1995, LaszS wrote:

> Hello Everyone,
>         I am from New Jersey, USA.  I am going to Hungary in a couple of
> days
> for my cousins wedding.  After the wedding, I am going travelling by train
> through out europe.  I would like to start the trip in Budapest.  If
> anyone has any info on hostels or and affordable pensions in Budapest
> please e-mail to  or post a reply.
>                                 Thanks in advance
>                                 Laszlo Istvan Skoda
>

Wally Keeler writes:

>>I don't know where you were, but I recall the Romanian revolution being
>>started by a crowd of Romanians and Hungarians rallying around Tokes
>>Laszlo.

Since Tokes Laszlo is hungarian (by race), it would be probably more exact
to write " Hungarians and Romanians" since hungarians were in majority.

Also as far as I know, most of the villages earmarked for destruction were
ethnic hungarian. (And it would make sense.)

To: Dr. Mihai Caragiu.

Thank you for the history lesson. Even assuming that Seton-Watson had erred in
some places in his writing, (I never completly beleive historians) there is
no smoke without fire, and it seems that hte hungarian history books need
improvment. I was always more for Szecsenyi than Kossuth. This just reenforces
my feelings. As a hungarian, I feel sorry for the past, and I might better now
understand the present, but two wrongs do not make one right, and I do feel
that the hungarians in Romania should have cultural autonomy, which they don't
have. I also feel, that present romanian history books could also improve
their impartiality.

> It's nice that you took your time to display how Hungarians weren't angels
>when they were in charge. I already know that, but does that justify the acts
>that go on today??

You seem to imply here that the good old hungarians just failed shortly
to be classified as `angels' ;-)  I can't quite buy that. Secondly, I am not
trying to motivate any possible romanian misconduct. There is certainly room
for improvement. Less room should be allowed for the kind of political fiction
you advocate - this is coming from both sides, however. Thus, instead of
your lousy insinuations, you'd better present well documented and
statistically motivated facts (if you want to get some point).

>"Well they did it to us, so let's do it to them!!"

I don't advocate this kind of `reciprocity law'.
Very few people in Romania think like this.
Are there many revisionists in Hungary, by the way ?

>So your attempt to make me feel guilty about the past isn't working

I didn't intend that. In fact even there is no need for this.
The `icon' of the past is already within yourself,
more or less conscious. The `troubles' you feel might come
out of there and less from the romanians, who knows.

P.S. Janos: about the meaning of `friend' we
     should first agree in private. Or it was
     yet another propagandist `technique' ?


>Sincerely,
> Czifra Janos
>john_czifra @ shi.com

Mihai Caragiu

         ==================================
        | Dr. Mihai Caragiu                |
        | Institute of Mathematics         |
        | Romanian Academy of Sciences     |
        | e-mail:  |
         ==================================

On Mon, 31 Jul 1995, Sandor Lengyel x2495 wrote:

> Wally Keeler writes:
> >>I don't know where you were, but I recall the Romanian revolution being
> >>started by a crowd of Romanians and Hungarians rallying around Tokes
> >>Laszlo.
>
> Since Tokes Laszlo is hungarian (by race), it would be probably more exact
> to write " Hungarians and Romanians" since hungarians were in majority.

To be as exact as possible the "Hungarians and Romanians" all of Romanian
citizenship. The point in either case is petty. The most important factor
is that the crowd was a mix of both, the proportions of this or that
ethnicity seems pointless to me.

> Also as far as I know, most of the villages earmarked for destruction were
> ethnic hungarian. (And it would make sense.)

You may well be correct insofar as the term "earmarked" is concerned, but
the villages that were actually destroyed were predominently Romanian.

>Hello Everyone,
>        I am from New Jersey, USA.  I am going to Hungary in a couple of
>days
>for my cousins wedding.  After the wedding, I am going travelling by train
>through out europe.  I would like to start the trip in Budapest.  If
>anyone has any info on hostels or and affordable pensions in Budapest
>please e-mail to  or post a reply.
>
I visited Hungary several years ago (prior to the end of communism) to
visit relatives in Budapest and the Great Plain. I arranged to rent a room
from a private individual by visiting the State-run tourist office in down-
town Budapest. It was a relatively simple procedure and quite
inexpensive. You might try this route if it is still available.

> ====================================================
JAMES W. REVAK, San Diego, CA - 
> ====================================================

Czifra Jancsi wrote:
>Anyway, I can't believe that we (Hungarians) can just sit back and
>watch the decimation of the Hungarians go by without any true action. Instead,
>we let the Hungarian government sell out 600,000 ethnic Hungarians to Slovakia
>to do as they please with them because the EU says so and would jeopardize
>Hungary's standing. What about the standing of those ethnic Hungarians??

Of course you are correct, but I think the reason is that Hungary is at the
mercy of the international community, as it was after WW I when Trianon
was imposed against previous proclaimations of 'self determination'.
What can the government do to feed the people, other than to submit to
this economic blackmail.  When the EU says the Central European countries
have to settle their differences before they can be admitted to the
EU, what they mean is that Hungary must agree to surrender it's people
in exchange for money, since no one really expects Slovakia, Ukraine, and
Rumania to give up land without a fight - this has never happened before,
and no one expects it to happen now.  The only thing that we can hope for
is for moderate forves to take hold in Bucharest - and Koloszvar.  With the
current government, the Hungarians in Rumania will be destroyed for sure.

As for the standing of the Hungarians  in Slovakia, as you mentioned above,
that is irrelevant, since they don't have guns.  We have seen in Bosnia
that the international community will gladly certify the taking of
land under injustice as a means of stability, since they were glad to
support a treaty ending the current war which would give the Serbs over
50% of what was originally Bosnia. The problem was that ther Serbs saw that
they could do better on their own, and so far have been proved correct.
Taking this and Trianon together, of
what authority is international consensus, when it is based not on
justice, but the security of the party nations?  'Justice' belongs to
those who can enforce it.

>The best example being the poor showing at the Ceaucescu
Demonstration at Washington, DC in 1988, especially the New Brunswick, NJ
contingent. We had only a half a bus load of people show up. There were hardly
any young people, except myself, on that bus.

Of this there is no defense.  I think people have forgotten the power
of a few loud and determined loud voices.

Paul Gelencser

>...Romanians are openly helping the Serbs to obtain aviation and other
>fuels in violation of their obligations

Why?  They are not Slavs.  What do they have to gain?  They are no
more trustworthy now, it seems, than they were in WW I.

Paul

Czifra Janos wrote:

>"You Ustashi Croats wiped out us Serbs in WWII, so it gives
>us more than enough reason to do it to you." So your attempt to make me feel
>guilty about the past isn't working and makes me wonder what kind of educator
>you really are.

On the money.

Paul

Wally Keeler wrote:
>To be as exact as possible the "Hungarians and Romanians" all of Romanian
>citizenship.

Then you clearly do not understand.  Citizenship is not the issue, as it has
been imposed.  Ethnic/racial/family ties are the issue:  are you tied to
a Hungarian family and culture or a Rumanian family and culture.  Since the
Rumanians are always looking for reason to spit on the Hungarians as the
untrustworthy trash us Hungarians are, it is important to announce as loud
and as often as possible that there were more Hungarians than Rumanians in
Rumania, responsible for the start of the revolution that ended communism
in Rumania - that it happened in a traditionally Hungarian town.

Paul Gelencser

I was in Hungary in June, and I saw that it is possible to find
rooms for rent in the Tourinform offices.  There is one near Deak Ter, next
to the McDonald's on a tiny street leading from the Ter towards the Danube.

Paul

paul writes:
>
> >...Romanians are openly helping the Serbs to obtain aviation and other
> >fuels in violation of their obligations
>
> Why?  They are not Slavs.  What do they have to gain?  They are no
> more trustworthy now, it seems, than they were in WW I.
> Paul

   Romania, Bulgaria and Serbia are still in the Russian orbit more
than in the West's, economically and politically.  I suspect they feel
what they have to gain is Russian aid and support. They are probably
no more nor less trustworthy than any country in central Europe, all
of whom presumably try to act in their own perceived best interest.
Sometimes it works.  Sometimes it doesn't.  Have you read the
Jamestown Foundation's analyses of the Russian situation?? In which
the Russians emphasize strongly they must renew ties with the Orthodox
countries?


    Jan George Frajkor                      _!_
 School of Journalism, Carleton Univ.      --!--
 1125 Colonel By Drive                       |
 Ottawa, Ontario                            /^\
 Canada K1S 5B6                         /^\     /^\
       /   
  o: 613 788-7404   fax: 613 788-6690  h: 613 563-4534