Where are these places on a map: are they in the South, West, East or
North of Hungary???? Along which border?

Can you tell me anything about these cities?

Debrecen
Debrecsen (Nograd)

What does the name mean?

Zoltan Szekely wrote:

> As in the letter of Antony Gyuri:

It appears to have avoided your attention that in English surnames follow
the first name, even when writing names from languages that have the
opposite order (e.g., Japanese, Korean, Hungarian).

> > >George Antony wrote:
> > > > Do you seriously claim that
> > > > new coalition stopped a growth that was about to take off (...)?
> >
> > > It's not me, who claims that. It is the opinion of the
> > > Polgari Szovetseg in Hungary.
> >
> > My criticism of unadulterated rubbish is directed at everyone who
> > repeats it like mantra without even thinking whether is makes sense
> > at all.

> Gyuri, you're stealing away some hard facts of
> the Hungarian economy. It's you're business,
> but I guess in a democracy it in not a good
> idea to dismiss the opposing economical views.

It has nothing to do with democracy or otherwise.  It is my professional
opinion what I write here, and note that I am not serving any Hungarian
political party unlike the experts of the Hungarian opposition parties
your are referring to.

In fact, I have no stake in the events in Hungary apart from a concern
for people in Hungary I care for.  Hence, I am unbiased, while this cannot
be claimed for the people whose opinion you are trying to present as purely
professional.

> > Politicians much rather please their electorates than kick them in the
> > guts, and will only do the latter if absolutely forced to do so, regardless
> > when it happens during the electoral cycle.

> Wrong! The first year is always different.

Try pulling the other one.  You are either extremely naive or locked in
denial mode.  While it is easier for a politician to get away with
unpopular measures at the beginning of the electoral cycle, they'd much
rather not use ANY unpopular measures, at ANY time.  So, your line that
the "liberals" have pulled the plug on growth for no other reason than
ideology is simply risible, and your insistence on it is an insult to
your readers' intelligence.

> The
> liberals wanted to force, e.g., Antall into a
> 'shock therapy' in the first year of his leader-
> ship and they accused him to miss a 'historical
> chance', because he did not comply. Why?

In my view, because he was economically illiterate, as was most of the
leadership.  And, quod erat demonstrandum, he did miss a historical chance.
Hungary's relative economic situation was much worse compared to other
Central European countries after the Antall/Boross government's four years
than when they took office.

George Antony

In article >, "Zoli
Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq" > writes:

>
> I strongly disagree with this. That is, it is admirable if people put
>their name on the line like you (as well as myself ;-() do, but not
>everybody ought to be held to the same. Particularly if one provides
>verifiable content and/or valid arguments their personal accountability
>should not count.
> As a matter of act, online identity is not such a trivial matter as most
>assume.

(icipici sznip)

> Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
>*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
>*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
>*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!
>
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.2
>
>iQBVAwUBMfud68Q/4s87M5ohAQFtywIAg5VN6hdgCFKR6I8gKcdrqAzA9ylQf4My
>WLVxoh+k+2A1+yKPJrtp0/to+bzzGhuDh3+eLU+mqVy4TJoCiqMgDg==
>=sVKO
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Having seen your name a time or two on comp.risks and knowing your
penchant for being careful to use security measures in your own posts,
this comes as no shock. You overstate your case, but not by much. Someone
with your skills and intelligence could get away for a while with
forgeries. But you, home boy, are the exception rather than the rule
(Awright, Fekete, just keep that head-swelling to a minimum, boyo!). Most
people who try forging are gonna trip up on the technical aspects of
covering their tracks or the literative aspect of trying to sound like the
person they're forging. Even I, with minimal computer skills, can read all
that information my computer provides me at the bottom of each post I
download. And I have seen forgers in action. They're usually so
egotistical that they can't sound like anyone but themselves, even when
they're posting under someone else's name. Sound like someone we all know?

If we take your position to its logical conclusion, then we should pay no
attention to what anyone posts on the net. Since one cannot be sure of any
poster's identity, then one can never be sure of the veracity of anything
posted. It is hyper-atavism piped to your home or office at the speed of
light. Sounds like a great script for the X-Files. But it makes for crummy
participatory democracy. I take concept of the net as a public forum a
little more seriously than you do. Entering into that forum as an active
participant without accepting public responsibility for what you say is
the electronic equivalent of putting a sheet over your head and burning a
cross on your neighbor's lawn. Problem is that once they get accustomed to
doing it virtually and getting away with it, the really scary ones will
think the same rules obtain in real life.
Sam Stowe

Ga1bor Farkas' wife is not alone in this -- my wife's been also asking me why
I wast my time on this nonsense. So here follows my last posting on the NPA
matter.

> Felado :  [United States]
>
> ANL. can provide it's own story to Radio Petofi. But it seems ANL. does not
> even want to discuss anything with you. They are just not interested of the
> any PR. of this matter.
In general, this sort of information is guarded very closeley: most private
companies have standing policies not to reveal anything except beginning and
ending date of service, and it can't be very different in the government
sector. In this particular case I think you are even more right than you
think: ANL certainly doesn't want any PR about an employee posting
anti-semitic messages from a government account. I think you still haven't
realized how offensive your postings were, and how much of an embarrassment
they are for Argonne. Certainly the laying off of your boss could be
interpreted as an attempt to cut out the living flesh together with the
snake venom that was .

> Call them whichever way you like. Maybe they are just a "icipicit vallalat"
 :-)
> due to the fact, that their APS. division worked on a profit project.
So what? I often work on government-sponsored stuff, but this doesn't make
me a government employee.

> And the proofs of mine seemed satisfactory for the reporter of that Radio.
That is exactly the problem.

> Fine. But why did you address this issue to me? Are you trying to attack me
> by putting words into my mouth?
No. You asked, I answered, that's all. There is never the slightest need to
put words in your mouth: you post a lot, and it speaks for itself.

> Any proofs of it or you just pulled it out of your behind?
No proof whatsoever.

> Then why did you mentioned it?
To make clear what kind of evidence one should search for if one wanted to
understand your case.

> >is in your interest to present some objective evidence supporting your case.
>
> Oh I will. But not to you.
Great.

> I show you nothing and I don't need your help a bit. And don't make me laugh.
> You would help me? You are quite funny recently!!!
As far as getting you a fair hearing, yes. As far as supporting some of your
contentions, obviously not.

> >Joe Pannon might already be convinced that you have a case, but I am not.
>
> That is your problem.
It should be the biggest one I ever have!

> You don't get it, do you? I would not even discuss this topic any further if
> you and your buddies wouldn't bring it up, again and again.
You are on, pal! And feel free to respond, you can have the last word.

> I can handle my business quite well. The question is, that why some people
> are so interested in this case, bringing it up before it would die off? You
> have a vested interest in it?
I don't, and I didn't bring it up either. You did (and of course you have a
vested interest -- it was jour job). If you really want to stop devoting on
the average 3-4 postings to the matter every day just do so.

> >Hell, if Noam Chomsky lends his support to outright holocaust-revisionists
> >this way, I can certainly support your right to blood libel.
>
> ?????
!!!!!

> So I should get ready for some additional whistle blowing as well? :-)
> Knowing you, nothing surprises me any more!
Whistle blowing means bringing insider information to light -- I don't have
any such information about you, so don't worry. But I reserve the right to
call you a nazi scumbag whenever I see you propagating the vicious kind of
antisemitic nonsense that earned you this adjective the first place, to call
you nutso whenever I see you writing nutty stuff, and to call you a wonderful
genius whenever I see you write brilliant stuff meriting such praise (this has
not happened yet, but you never know).

> You mean if I say Don't Do It, then you are not going to do it? Don't
> play games with me, pleeese!
You never said "Don't Do It", to the contrary, you said "Do It if You Dare".
So following the old SZDSZ slogan "tudjuk, merju2k, tesszu2k" (we can, we
dare, we do) I dared and I did what I could, which wasn't too much, given
ANL's reluctance to discuss the matter. It appears Ga1bor Farkas did what
must have been a tremendously unpleasant job (talking to the HR person at
Argonne was quite pleasant) of going through your stuff, which has the
highest nurdiegalle factor I've ever seen. Bletch.

Andra1s Kornai

On Sun, 28 Jul 1996 18:13:44 -0700, "Eva S. Balogh"
> wrote:

>At 08:23 PM 7/28/96 -0400, Aniko wrote:
>
>>While I truly consider my stomach to be made of cast iron, and will, and
>>have tried anything presented to me at least once.... this is definately not
>>one of my favs.  In fact..... I especially find the hairs attached to ears
>>and nostrils incredibly disgusting... (from the pig, in an aspic form on
>>bread.. that is).
>>
>>Hope this helps Eva???
>
>        Maybe I am thinking of something else. Maybe something which has to
>do with the stomach. Maybe the "icipici, not so icipici" pieces of meat and
>fat are put into the stomach. What is that called?
>
>        Eva B.

Haggis. :-)

I am kidding, of course, but this was the most disgusting food I could
think of.

And you are supposed to burn the hairs off, so they don't end up in
your headcheese.

(My God, what have I started... please forgive me for my tresspasses).

:-)
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
      <OR>  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

On Sun, 28 Jul 1996 14:08:12 -0400, "Really me myself, cross my
heart!" > wrote:
>
>On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, ANDREW ROZSA wrote:
>> You know how confused we, Erdelyiek, are.... constantly mixing
>> languages :-).... despite all others' opinions we really did not care
>> who was what or what language was used....just as long as we
>> understood each other... (off topic, sorry).

> Actually this latter comment is very much on-topic (more than some of
>the culinary delights we're getting into here, I'm afraid ;-)). But as a
>matter of fact I know non-Erdelyis, such as our own family, who uses
>'spa1jz'...

Oh, I was just kidding... been a Hungarian for too long not to know
better..... my son, OTOH, doesn't have a prayer. His loss, methinks.
He just thinks I talk "funny." May be I should send his skinny little
rear-end to Hungary for a few months.

>> >        Fried pig's blood is very good. Believe me. We used to have it once
>> >a year: at pig's killing time in early January.

> I can't stand that (nor the blood as food, nor the ritual of the
>slaughtering, inciddentally ;-() - tastes and slaps, I'd say...

Neither could I. It was always amazing, though, how we still loved
pork. Somehow we all seem to dissociate the image of slaughter from
the enjoyment of food.

>
>> Veres hurka, anyone?
>... while I love this ...
>> What's the word for headcheese?
>... and puke from this again ;-(. The word is simply (?) 'diszno1sajt',
>isn't it!?

A while ago I saw (read?) a discussion on the psychology of food. It
is interesting how one develop tastes. Apparently, aborigines of
Australia (may be it was New Zealand), whose normal diet includes live
maggots, will totally freak at the site of spaghetti and meat-sauce.
I, OTOH, can't stand the smell of chicken as it is being cooked.

BTW, it may be just me, but after 32 years in the States I still think
that chicken doesn't right, here! But, of course, I feel that way
about many foods: tomatoes, cucumbers, peppers, etc. I know I am not
crazy, because when our more up-scale supermarket started carrying
Pannonia ham imported from Hungary, I knew (again!) what taste ham is
SUPPOSED to have.

>>[...]
>> In our house (now), there is a link of sausage on the counter at all
>> times (the drier the better). There is almost no way of passing by it
>> and not take a bite.
>
> I'll quote you to my parents - they still think I should be able to
>resist ;-).

Tell them that you have heard, from an unimpeachable source, that
eating Hungarian smoked sausage produces endorphins in your brain. :-)
:-)

Rozsa Bandi
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
      <OR>  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

At 10:13 PM 7/28/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely compares Nemeny to Peter Esterhazy.

That, in my opinion is "enyhe ko:lto"i tu'lza's" ( slight poetic exaggeration)!

Gabor D. Farkas

I repeat Mr. Stowe, both sides of the argument are "grammatically
challenged".
The purpose of this simple message was to reply to the "whining" of one on
your cohorts about Nemenyi's turn of phrase.
Nemeyi may not be perfect but neither are you. Mr. Stowe, your writing
skills are severely lacking in clarity. Your last message is a great
example of gobbledigook. Check your archives, if you can. ;-)
I am not interested in getting involved in a name calling contest with you
or anyone else.Your expertise in ad hominem attacks has been amply
demonstrated and I bow to your skill.
                                                          If my messages
have no interest for you, please delete and ignore them.

I don't like bullies. I don't choose to dig up archives that may justify
the actions of bullies. My computer skills could stand improvement. But, I
can still recognize a lynching in progress without knowing my modem from
my hat.

Best Wishes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Interestingly enough, I heard that blood sausage= veres hurka = boudin
noir=
                                               sasigia fegeta

the last spelling is a total guess on my part....anyway, its Italian blood
sausage.

What I find interesting is, that the Hungarian word for black is fekete.

Any connection?

At 03:54 AM 7/29/96 -0400, JFerengi > wrote:

>I repeat Mr. Stowe, both sides of the argument are "grammatically
>challenged".

<snip>

>I don't like bullies. I don't choose to dig up archives that may justify
>the actions of bullies. My computer skills could stand improvement. But, I
>can still recognize a lynching in progress without knowing my modem from
>my hat.

And how are you at self-flagellation?  Do you recognize that it progress?
And how do you feel about mirrors?

Joe Szalai

Eva Balogh wrote:

>I hope Aniko is right. The silent majority by now have drawn their
>own conclusions, I hope the right ones.

It depends. If they are "TRAINED" like you, then their conclusion
might be like yours. But if they are not, then you are out of your
luck. :-)

>And by the way, I can go on for a while with all this nonsense and
>then, very suddenly, I decide that I had enough and refuse to continue.

Good. Then very suddenly I won't answer to what you won't write.

>I guess, if you want to make a generalization that is a "typical" Hungarian
>reaction. I think I have reached this point.

Typical? What is your problem, with the Hungarian reactions? I didn't know
that the Hungarians are any different, than the Americans. By the way, I
am European-American now, but you are European-Canadian. So where does it
put you? :-) Into a typical Hungarian or Canadian "reaction" category?

>As for your "as npa turns," I found it hilariously funny. It
>reminded me of an old Carol Burnett show in which she called that particular
>soap opera: "as the stomach turns." Well, anyone can draw one's own
>conclusion what I have in mind.

I guess the silent majority just did. But you know how they are? Nobody
want to become the target of such a tolerant bunch as you are and your gang.

NPA.

DEAR ALL:

IS IT NOT TIME TO STOP THIS NEMENY B.S.??????

I AM SURE THAT WE HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DISCUSS.

LET US ALL AGREE TO DROP THIS SUBJECT AND GET ON WITH OTHER
MORE USEFUL THINGS...LIKE FOOD.

ELSE, I AM AFRAID WE ARE GOING TO HAVE MANY PEOPLE SIGN OFF
THIS LIST PERMANENTLY. THANK YOU.

Peter Soltesz

One of the worst stuff I can imagine (I was asked to try it
when I was in kid) is disnosajt (also known as kocsonya)
It is all the stuff that should have been thrown away...
preserved in Aspic!  Yeeechh!!!

On Jul 29, 10:22am, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> Subject: Re: Disgusting food (was Re: A growing list)
> One of the worst stuff I can imagine (I was asked to try it
> when I was in kid) is disnosajt (also known as kocsonya)
> It is all the stuff that should have been thrown away...
> preserved in Aspic!  Yeeechh!!!
>-- End of excerpt from Peter A. Soltesz

    This is very wrong. The only thing disznosajt (headcheeze)
    and kocsonya (aspic) have in  common is that they are both
    made from pork.  And all of  you who find  disznosajt dis-
    gusting have never had a good one. It is very easy to ruin
    it by somebody who doesn't know what he/she is doing.  But
    if it is done right, I would walk miles for it  (I have no
    idea where the hair came from, Aniko, but you may have had
    one of the ruined ones).
                               Amos

The next promoter of the "as npa turns" saga, Andras Kornai wrote:


>>ANL. can provide it's own story to Radio Petofi. But it seems ANL. does not
>>even want to discuss anything with you. They are just not interested of
>>any PR. of this matter.

>In general, this sort of information is guarded very closeley: most private
>companies have standing policies not to reveal anything except beginning and
>ending date of service, and it can't be very different in the government
>sector. In this particular case I think you are even more right than you
>think: ANL certainly doesn't want any PR about an employee posting
>anti-semitic messages from a government account. I think you still haven't
>realized how offensive your postings were, and how much of an embarrassment
>they are for Argonne. Certainly the laying off of your boss could be
>interpreted as an attempt to cut out the living flesh together with the
>snake venom that was .

So Mr. Kornai states the same thing, but with a little venom of his. Did
he suggested, ANL. dismissed me, because the nature of my postings? Did
I understand, that I lost my job, because of my political views? I hope
Mr. Kornai will answer to this questions. I just need more and more of
his kind to aknowledge, that I was ousted for my views!

And what is this nonsense about of the laying off my boss? He was not
laid off! He was fired! After so many inquires to ANL. by my helping
friends at Hungary, they still can't get their act together? :-)

>So what? I often work on government-sponsored stuff, but this doesn't
>make me a government employee.

Of course not. That makes you a sub - contractor. I was not on a
subcontract, but I was not a government employee neither. Just check if
any of the APS. guys could take their holiday on Martin Luther King's
day. :-)

>>And the proofs of mine seemed satisfactory for the reporter of that Radio.

>That is exactly the problem.

That is only your problem buddy. Oh and your gang's too!

>>Fine. But why did you address this issue to me? Are you trying to attack me
>>by putting words into my mouth?

>No. You asked, I answered, that's all. There is never the slightest need to
>put words in your mouth: you post a lot, and it speaks for itself.

You are lost. You guys started this saga, not me.   I just answer to  all  of
the venom you and your friends are spreading around. I was in Hungary, when I
learned, that you fellows writing pages of garbage about my case. And trust
me, when you talk about, limiting of the freedom of speech, you talk of, what
I want to hear from you!

>>Any proofs of it or you just pulled it out of your behind?

>No proof whatsoever.

Than why are you wasting your time? :-)

>>Then why did you mentioned it?

>To make clear what kind of evidence one should search for if one wanted to
>understand your case.

Don't worry about it. According to you, there is no case. So just relax!

>is in your interest to present some objective evidence supporting your case.

>?Oh I will. But not to you.

>Great.

Sure it is!

>>I show you nothing and I don't need your help a bit. And don't make me laugh.
>>You would help me? You are quite funny recently!!!

>As far as getting you a fair hearing, yes. As far as supporting some of your
>contentions, obviously not.

Listen. You are funny when you play. Mr. right!


>Joe Pannon might already be convinced that you have a case, but I am not.

>>That is your problem.

>It should be the biggest one I ever have!

Then why did you mention it?


>>You don't get it, do you? I would not even discuss this topic any further if
>>you and your buddies wouldn't bring it up, again and again.

>You are on, pal! And feel free to respond, you can have the last word.

Thanks for agreeing on this. So I will respond.

>>I can handle my business quite well. The question is, that why some people
>>are so interested in this case, bringing it up before it would die off? You
>>have a vested interest in it?

>I don't, and I didn't bring it up either. You did (and of course you have a
>vested interest -- it was jour job). If you really want to stop devoting on
>the average 3-4 postings to the matter every day just do so.

You are B.S.-ing  again. The subject ON THIS platform was not brought up by me!
I was not even around, when you guys covered my name with mud. And about the
vested interest: You are covering up, for your buddies. Keep trying!


>Hell, if Noam Chomsky lends his support to outright holocaust-revisionists
>this way, I can certainly support your right to blood libel.

>>?????

>!!!!!

Playing games?

>>So I should get ready for some additional whistle blowing as well? :-)
>>Knowing you, nothing surprises me any more!

>Whistle blowing means bringing insider information to light -- I don't have
>any such information about you, so don't worry.

Worry? You are out of your mind. Why the heck I should be worry. To loose
what? My job? :-)))) Or else? But I meant the whistle blower hotline. You
know, the one on the remailer of Mr. Fekete & Karesz. :-)

>But I reserve the right to call you a nazi scumbag whenever I see you
>propagating the vicious kind of antisemitic nonsense that earned you this
>adjective the first place, to call you nutso whenever I see you writing
>nutty stuff, and to call you a wonderful genius whenever I see you write
>brilliant stuff meriting such praise (this has not happened yet, but you
>never know).

So I can call you of hateful garbage, because it is so matching. And I can
call you a liar, because you are so good in it. And I can call you a good
Hungarian (but I never experienced that through your articles) if I get
drunk.

>>You mean if I say Don't Do It, then you are not going to do it? Don't
>>play games with me, pleeese!

>You never said "Don't Do It", to the contrary, you said "Do It if You Dare".

Of course not. I don't waste my time. And now I admit, you are a very brave
little man, you don't get scared of the phone.

>So following the old SZDSZ slogan "tudjuk, merju2k, tesszu2k" (we can, we
>dare, we do) I dared and I did what I could, which wasn't too much, given
>ANL's reluctance to discuss the matter. It appears Ga1bor Farkas did what
>must have been a tremendously unpleasant job (talking to the HR person at
>Argonne was quite pleasant) of going through your stuff, which has the
>highest nurdiegalle factor I've ever seen. Bletch.

You guys are really brave. I must applause to you. Now I only wait if the
other braves come out and say. Yeah, we reported NPA. to DOE. & ANL. because
we are brave too. I am proud of you guys. Very proud.

NPA.

Peter A. Soltesz wrote:


>DEAR ALL:
>IS IT NOT TIME TO STOP THIS NEMENY B.S.??????
>I AM SURE THAT WE HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DISCUSS.
>LET US ALL AGREE TO DROP THIS SUBJECT AND GET ON WITH OTHER
>MORE USEFUL THINGS...LIKE FOOD.
>ELSE, I AM AFRAID WE ARE GOING TO HAVE MANY PEOPLE SIGN OFF
>THIS LIST PERMANENTLY. THANK YOU.

He has a point, but I am merely answering to the shit falling
from the "tolerant sector".

So it is not up to me! I would like to help, and participate
in politically sensitive palacsinta discussions, but how can I
do it? Palacsinta and shit don't mix in reputable places!

NPA.

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>Continue with the story, Zoli.  I'm working on the film rights for all
this.
>It will be another cheap, Hungarian thriller. (PG)  For a special,
special
>effect, all copies of the movie will be badly dubbed.
>
>
No dubbing. We'll use white subtitles and film it in black and white.
Sam Stowe, cinematographer

In article >, "Really
me myself, cross my heart!" > writes:

> But clearly, it's GOT to be the Tel Aviv - New York axis, doesn't it!?
>
>

Where's Menachem Golan and Dino De Laurentis when you need them?
Sam Stowe

In article >,  (JFerengi)
writes:

>I don't like bullies. I don't choose to dig up archives that may justify
>the actions of bullies. My computer skills could stand improvement. But,
I
>can still recognize a lynching in progress without knowing my modem from
>my hat.
>
>Best Wishes!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>

Se ya around, ya cowardly little worm! There -- were you able to
understand that? The next time you decide to publicly support
anti-semitism, you can expect the same treatment from me if I have any
breath left in my body. You are a disgrace to this nation and to our ISP.
Sam Stowe

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>Nevertheless, I never called Nemenyi an anti-Christian, not
>even an anti-semite, Nazi or fascist. Because he is not.
>
>He may have nonstandard views about history, but is it a
>good reason to excommunicate him?
>                                                   Sz. Zoli

Is it fair enough at this point to call you an apologist for
anti-semitism?
Sam Stowe

Mr George Antony Wrote:
> It is my professional opinion what I write here, (...)
> Hence, I am unbiased, while this cannot be claimed for the people whose
> opinion you are trying to present as  purely professional.
It sounds very firm, although not very convincing.

> So, your line that
> the "liberals" have pulled the plug on growth for no other reason than
> ideology is simply risible, and your insistence on it is an insult to
> your readers' intelligence.
Maybe not just ideology. Maybe it was strategical. I don't know.

> > The first year is always different. The
> > liberals wanted to force, e.g., Antall into a
> > 'shock therapy' in the first year of his leader-
> > ship and they accused him to miss a 'historical
> > chance', because he did not comply. Why?
>
> In my view, because he was economically illiterate, as was most of the
> leadership.
Does it sound 'unbiased' to you, huhh? Just funny. Kadar Bela was the
captain of economy between 90 and 94 and he did an excellent job. He is
also a member of the international 'Blue Ribbon Committee', which offered
a reasonable strategy for the transition in Hungary in 89-90. Are the
economists of the Blue Ribbon Committee all illiterate? Do you really
thik so? Or are you just involved in duck-calling, as usual?

> And, quod erat demonstrandum, he did miss a historical chance.
The reasoning, the liberals provided with their offer for Antall for making
a 'shock therapy' in 1990, was that the voters would accept it as the first
step of a new government. In other words, it was automatic in the liberal
way of thinking that 'the first year does not count'.

Ot it does not count only if it is not you, who are the government?!
Guillotine is fun until your own neck is in danger? Hmmm... Well, it may be
a good observation. And also wonderfully reveals some 'clever tactic' on
the liberal wing.

(The other funny thing in this story is, that in 1990 the SzDSz wanted to
force the newly elected Prime Minister Antall to perform the liberal agenda
in economy, instead of performing the economic programme of his own
winning party! Talking about the aggressivity of the loser.)      Sz. Zoli

I almost forgot something. Mr Gyuri Antony finishes his letter
like this:
> Hungary's relative economic situation was much worse compared to other
> Central European countries after the Antall/Boross government's four years
> than when they took office.
Is it another nice piece of your 'unadulterated rubbish mantra'?
In Hungary most of the people, and many of the experts think
otherwise. And not only in the side of the political opposition.
Take heed of that!                                     Sz. Zoli

Sam Stowe had it:

> >He may have nonstandard views about history, but is it a
> >good reason to excommunicate him?
> >                                                   Sz. Zoli

> Is it fair enough at this point to call you an apologist for
> anti-semitism?

Is the ACLU an apologist for anti-semitism? Or Ku-KLux-Klanism?
Or Nazism? Or whatever? Or are they only for the First Amendment
of the U.S.A.?

I refuse any kind of antisemitism. An antisemite accuses people
belonging to an ethnic group, or religion, or lifestyle on the
basis of their origin. They accuse Semitic people just because
they are Semitic. It is wrong! You have to judge anybody on
the basis of his or her personal action. It is also true in
evaluating historical figures.

I have high respect for Mr Ede Teller, because he is a proud
Hungarian (and also a proud Jew). I like Radnoti Miklos, because
he never withdraw from his identification with the Hungarian
culture. I am a fan of Sandor Gyorgy, the humorist, because
he has a very deep intellectual performance in making humor.
One of my favorites is Bob Dylan, because he put action in
the song. I also like Simon & Garfunkel, because of the high
level of artistry in theis songs. (I also like the songs of Lyle
Lovett, anyway. :-) And I could continue until you want.

What I know is that, you guys, here in this list, are in bad need
in the boxing game. You're just not happy until you don't tie up
everybody into a nice, body-fit box. I'm sorry, man, this game
is not form me. I'm not a box guy.                       Sz. Zoli

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On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Stowewrite wrote:
> In article >, Joe Szalai
> > writes:
>[saga-film]
> >effect, all copies of the movie will be badly dubbed.
> No dubbing. We'll use white subtitles and film it in black and white.

 Ah, cinema varite style would only be fitting; 'course for real success
we may want to somehow get a 'banned in Boston' label too ;-)...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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Amos wrote in answer to Soltesz's comments on "disznosajt":

>    This is very wrong. The only thing disznosajt (headcheeze)
>    and kocsonya (aspic) have in  common is that they are both
>    made from pork.  And all of  you who find  disznosajt dis-
>    gusting have never had a good one. It is very easy to ruin
>    it by somebody who doesn't know what he/she is doing.  But
>    if it is done right, I would walk miles for it  (I have no
>    idea where the hair came from, Aniko, but you may have had
>    one of the ruined ones).
>                               Amos
>
Hi Amos:

I'll try and explain ... a bit wordy though, pls excuse.

In my greatgrandfather's home, there  was a summer kitchen of sort (actually
it is a room, with a great big coal/wood type stove) equipped with an
enormous collander shaped bowl, which sat over the open fire.  (Even the
size of the woodenspoons were enormous).  This room was only used for
disznotoros, and all "food prep" would take place there (for sausages,
hurka, etc).  After all was over with, the head of the pig was the last to
be processed.  It would simply be placed in that pot/bowl of boiling water,
after the hair has been singed off.  I have to correct my original post;
hair and eyes were the most visible at this point mostly.  After the meat
boiled off, such things were discarded as best as possible.  But De'di,
being much older of course, would on occassion mess up on his quality
control and some pieces of the ears (which were hard to de-hair) did filter
in.  Of course I never meant to suggest that the eyes ended up in the final
product.  Sorry for the initial vague description.

In short, after watching this proceedure for years, I never could bring
myself to try "disznofejsajt" after the first time around - when I was too
young and not allowed to say no.  While a few things have changed since;  I
am still too young;).  Maybe when I grow up, I'll try it again!?:)!  I'll
try and remember your words Amos if I should ever get home for another
disznotoros!

Best regards,
Aniko
 >

At 10:19 AM 7/29/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote, Re: The Nemenyi files:

>DEAR ALL:
>
>IS IT NOT TIME TO STOP THIS NEMENY B.S.??????
>
>I AM SURE THAT WE HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DISCUSS.
>
>LET US ALL AGREE TO DROP THIS SUBJECT AND GET ON WITH OTHER
>MORE USEFUL THINGS...LIKE FOOD.
>
>ELSE, I AM AFRAID WE ARE GOING TO HAVE MANY PEOPLE SIGN OFF
>THIS LIST PERMANENTLY. THANK YOU.

I wouldn't mind if you signed of this list permanently.  Your iniquitous
right wing economic views are one thing.  Your disgust of people who are
different form you is quite another.

I will spare no effort in isolating you and making you feel like a pariah.
Perhaps then you'll understand why I find your attitudes so nauseating, you
little snot.  But don't get me wrong.  I believe in rehabilitation.  I'm
sure that a week in a camp that offered anal massage and re-education would
do you a world of good.

Maybe you can start your rehabilitation by answering the post I wrote to you
last week.  In case you've forgotten, I'll post it again.

At 06:57 PM 7/23/96 I wrote:

Until you explain *who* the 'undesireable types' are, in Turkish baths in
Budapest, and why you think it's OK to call people by dehumanizing labels
such as 'doles', 'reds', 'pinkos', 'corrupt bastards', 'Germans',
'Rusiians'(sic), I have little interest in carrying on a "civilized
conversation on what reality is" with you.  And when you explain, I just may
not want to.

A while ago, one of the contributors to this list lamented the fact that the
Hungarian language FORUM had become a forum for extreme right wing views.
Apparently, those who were (still are?) on the moderate right did not
distance themselves from those on the extreme right.  (I guess the seductive
power of classical right wing economic theory is mightily potent.  A bit
like Bondage and Discipline, no?)  I don't read the Forum so I don't know
what would have been called 'extreme right' on that newsgroup.  But I'd like
to ask here.  Would the spleenful classification of people by 'type',
economic status, political beliefs, and ethnic origin, be seen as 'extreme'?

Joe Szalai

"I think a lot of gay people who are not dealing with their homosexuality
get into right-wing politics."
                              Armistead Maupin

On Jul 29, 11:42am, Zoltan Szekely wrote:
> Subject: Re: Ideological babbling from the radical left

> I almost forgot something. Mr Gyuri Antony finishes his letter
                                ------------

     It is basic courtesy to address people with their correct
     names.It is the addressee's right to decide what that is.
     But,  some people  have problem  with that.  Mr. Antony's
     first name is George -
                                  Amos

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On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> One of the worst stuff I can imagine (I was asked to try it
> when I was in kid) is disnosajt (also known as kocsonya)

 As someone who shares the dislike of both ;-(, I should point out that
disznosajt and kocsonya are rather different things (although indeed they
are from throwaway pig parts)...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
>[rather fast-and-loose attack on Peter]

 Joe,

this is truly uncalled for (I'm saying this as someone why myself have
disagreements both with his substantive views and some of his phrasings)!
I suggest that you should cut back the NPA in your diet ;-(...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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At 11:35 PM 7/28/96 GMT, Tibor Szekely wrote:
>I enclose a protest letter I mailed today to NBC:


>   Let me give You few of the  complaints.
>
>  - Your statistical works on the screen or on line are totally
>
>inadequate.
>
>  - Choosing ex-athletes for sportcasting is a poor choice. Try to
>
>listen to Robert Frost when he
>
>reads his own poems and see the effect you made. Ex-Olympians who
>
>become a coach later can
>
>help You better.
>
>- Your coverage of rare sports events are unratable. Your greco- roman
>
>wrestling segment consisted of
>
>a crying competitor private messages to his mother. Your women field
>
>hockey snap shot showed cheer-
>
>fool women hugs with artistic camera work. In the nineties we still
>
>have sexism in sport journalism?
>
>Why You had to set us up for this rabbish in your coming-up
>
>announcements?
>
> - A great 17 years old Californian shooter won a medal. A true amateur
>
>hero. You were completely unprepared.
>
> You mumbled
>
>some gossips. Why you did not bought some segments from foreign media?
>
>You  could have barter Your
>
>crying wrestler segment for it. No matter how much I dislike
>
>trashcasting, it is one of our best export
>
>product.
>
> - As a Europian American I am very proud for American victories.
>
>Thomas Dolan is my personal hero.
>
>Your primitive ignorance of the global nature of the games shows
>
>shallow chauvinism. I was still ambi-
>
>valent to comment on this until I read the Washington Post
>
>characterizing NBC as an orgy of Ameri-
>
>can gold medal celebrations.

        I fully agree with Tibor Szekely's opinion of NBC's coverage.
Disgusting is the only way to describe this nationalistic orgy. As for the
"human interest stories," they are banal beyond description. They reminded a
friend of mine of Hallmark ads on TV!

        But, I am afraid, NBC is not going to pay much attention to his
letter because of what I read in today's New York Times. Here are some
excerpts from an article entitled "Ratings Vault Above Promises Made by NBC."

        At least until Saturday, when a terror bomb moved the nation's
attention away from the Olympic competition, the first week of NBC's
coverage of the Olympic Games in Atlanta has been among the most successful
and profitable weeks in network television history, with ratings reaching
levels not seen since Nadia Comaneci was swining on a bar in the 1976
Olympics in Montreal.

        In the first week, NBC exceeded its prime-time Olymapics ratings
guarantee to advertisers by more than 25 percent, providing a spectacular
bonus for both its sponsors and the network. Indeed, ratings for the
Olympics are well more than double NBC's previous summertime ratings.

        Even better for NBC, a big part of the additional viewing has come
from one group that the network aimed at especially hard with its Olympic
promotions during the last year: younger women, an audience segment most
desired by advertisers. After one week, NBC attracted 37 percent more women
aged 18 to 34 to these Olympics than it had four years ago with the Olympic
Games in Barcelona, Spain, and 67 percent more than the 1988 games in Seoul,
South Korea.

        END of quotes from the New York Times.

        Obviously, there are people out there who just love hearing stories
about X. and Y.'s grandpa!

        Eva Balogh

At 03:05 PM 7/28/96 GMT, Bandi Rozsa wrote:

>The (December, in our case) pig saved an entire culture, I think. Had
>it not been for it, dried beans, onions and potatoes in the attic
>wrapped in hay, Jonathan apples, and the conserves (eltetett - huh,
>Eva?), we would have not made it through the 5-month winters.

        That was the case in Hungary too, let's say thirty-forty years ago.
There was absolutely no fresh vegetable during the winter months. Cabbage
was the only exception.

>I still have images in my mind of the meszaros chasing down a big ole'
>pig in the yard. And we lived in the city. :-)

        We lived in the city too but my grandparents bought a couple piglets
and fattened them up for the whole family. I also have vivid memories of
cutting the poor pig's neck and collecting the blood. Or burning the hair
off the poor thing afterward.

        Eva B.

Like I said, Stowe. You are a bully, looking to vent your hostility on
someone.
What's the matter? Had a tough day with your mother?
Not only do I not support anti-semitism or anti anything, I find those who
exhibit group hatred to be ignorant and despicable.

The fact that you want to lynch people under the aegis of being
anti-anti-semitic,
does not protect you from the labels of bully, and hate filled loser.

We have a nation of laws, thank God; not a nation where people, like
Stowe,
can impose their terrorist, smear tactics.

I choose to air my views, wherever and whenever I deem appropriate.
Your fascist type bullying will not work with me.

I prefer to drop this flaming. Bury the hatchet and move on from here.But,
I do reserve the right to answer in kind.

Funny! I've had disagreements with many people, but only you, Stowe,
choose to descend to name calling. Not a trait I admire or respect.

Life can be good, Stowe. Let the hatred go. It will only consume you.

Perhaps, you misunderstood one of my earlier posts. I am not looking to
fight with you. I would really like to see the discussions focus on facts
and not on personalities. If I was unclear, I apologize.

Best Wishes

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>>I don't like bullies. I don't choose to dig up archives that may justify
>>the actions of bullies. My computer skills could stand improvement. But,
I
>>can still recognize a lynching in progress without knowing my modem from
>>my hat.
>
>And how are you at self-flagellation?  Do you recognize that it progress?
>And how do you feel about mirrors?
>
>Joe Szalai

Sorry ,Joe. The subtlety of your humor is lost on me. Your second question
is unintelligible. Mirrors are just fine.......Happy now?

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On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Amos J. Danube wrote:
> > I almost forgot something. Mr Gyuri Antony finishes his letter
>                                 ------------
>
>      It is basic courtesy to address people with their correct
>      names.It is the addressee's right to decide what that is.
>      But,  some people  have problem  with that.  Mr. Antony's
>      first name is George -

 Just so I could enter as an 'unhired advocate' ("fogadatlan pro1ka1tor")
;-), I should note that Gyuri used to sign off just so (maybe still does,
I haven't been paying much attention to that) during the long history he
and my drusza (as well as myself) had shared on the Hungarian lists...
 I believe Zoli's argumentations, as they were, have ample real faults
even without picking nits with ;-(, so let's stick with them if anything!

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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I take responsibility for my postings.
I defend what I say with as much vehemence and logic as I can muster.
If I am wrong, I admit it and I apologize.

Many people in cyberspace know exactly who I am. Those who are closest to
me are the ones whose opinions matter most. Their respect and affection
means much to me.
I am not likely to post anything which would bring dishonor by exhibiting
racism or blind prejudice against any group, since I do not feel that way.
Most of all, I need to be able to look in the mirror every day.

If you are offended that you are not included in my circle of friends,
yet, that is regrettable.

If you wish to silence me, not for the content of what I say, but for the
name
under my posts, then, you are missing the whole point.

                                                  Regards,
                                                                  Mark
Twain

Dear Eva and Group;

At 03:05 PM 7/28/96 -0700, you wrote:

>At 12:26 PM 7/25/96 -0500, Nemenyi  wrote:
>
>> Just now I received documents from "The National Archives
>>of the United States" about the American Expeditionary Forces in Siberia
>>in June 1919.
>
>        I just happen to know something about this subject because my B.A.
>honors thesis happened to be on Canadian-Soviet Relations between 1917 and
>1921. The Canadian forces also took part in the effort of trying to save
>Russia for democracy. The Canadian forces happened to be in Archangel and
>the Kola Peninsula, alongside the American Expeditionary Forces. Therefore I
>read many, many dispatches, similar to the quoted below.
>
>>The document is a string of letters sent by Captain Montgomery
>>Schuyler from Omsk on June 9th. to the American War Department. In this lette
r
>>word by word I read the followings: "These hopes were frustrated by the
>>gradual gains in power of the more irresponsible and socialistic elements of
>>the population guided by the Jews and other anti-russian races. A table made
>>in April 1918 by Robert Wilton, the correspondent of the London Times in
>>Russia, shows that at that time there were 384 "commissars" including 2
>>negroes,
>>13 Russians, 15 Chinamen, 22 Armenians and more than 300 Jews. Of the latter
>>number 264 had come to Russia from the United States since the downfall of
>>the Imperial Government. "
>
>        The fact was that these military men had practically no knowledge of
>Russian conditions and sent back so-called political reports which bore no
>resemblance to reality. They of course didn't speak Russian and had contact
>only with a few Russian politicians on the spot who did. They complained
>bitterly about the ineptitude of non-Bolshevik politicians who couldn't get
>along and who, by American-Canadian standards, were terribly disorganized. A
>responsible researcher's very first task after the first reading of this
>passage would be to track down Mr. Robert Wilton and his activities and see
>whether any report containing such statistics every appeared in the London
>Times or not. If it did, the next task is to check the actualy situation in
>Omsk in April 1918: whether it really bears out Mr. Wilton's contention. Mr.
>Nemenyi has no training in history but even without training common sense
>would dictate to check his sources and not to accept the contents of all
>documents without thorough research after the truth. But he doesn't do that
>because what he really wants to hear is exactly of what Captain Montgomery
>Schuyler and Robert Wilton are saying. He is satisfied and he is happy: they
>support his beliefs!
>
>>This document were declassified on the 27th of 1953. Anybody can obtain such
>>documents now.
>
>       These documents have been available for a very long time and anyone
>can study them either on the spot or can get copies of them. However, only
>specialists, specifically working on specific topics, would request such
>documents. It is therefore somewhat baffling to see Mr. Nemenyi requesting
>such documents. And, by the way, antisemitism of this sort is abundant in
>published as well as unpublished American and British documents. Even
>democrats like Masaryk and Benes were not entirely free, as it is abundantly
>clear from the published British documents, of antisemitic feelings. But
>these were different times, before the rise of Hitler and the holocaust.
>
>>See my stand is different. I research history, not like Eva Balogh, who copie
s
>>all the orthodox views of politically correct explanations of history.
>
>        You are no researcher. You have no idea what research is all about.
>To pick a few documents, without ever checking their accuracy is no
>research. Even ordering a few documents from the National Archives will not
>make you a researcher or a historian. Just a maniacal antisemite who hangs
>on to every scrap of paper which supports his views.
>
>        Eva Balogh
>
I'm going to try to avoid getting into this debate per se.  I won't claim to
be an expert on any of this, but I have an observation of the structure of
the debate.

Mr. Nemenyi cites some documents to back up his beliefs. Ms. Balogh
denounces the validity of those documents and makes the _personal, based
upon her being an expert in this field_ contention that, "the Canadian
forces didn't have anyone among them (or perhaps it was just very few) who
spoke or read Russian fluently, knew anything about the reality of Russia,
and they were additionally prejudiced against the disorganization of the
non-Bolshevik forces.

Excuse me, but just as a person reading this debate, could you, Ms. Balogh
please cite some documentary proof of this appalling ignorance of the
Canadian forces, besides your own expert opinion?

The reason I ask, is because from what I know of immigration to the upper
Midwestern U.S.--and the plains provinces of Canada, I find it hard to
believe the expeditionary forces had no persons in them who knew anything
about Russia, and spoke Russian.  In North and South Dakota, Minnesota,
Montana, Iowa, etc.--and likewise the Canadian provinces adjacent to these
states, more than 100,000 Russian emigrants of German-Russian ancestry,
Jewish-Russian ancestry, etc. settled here in the 1870's-1890's.  They were
darned good farmers, small merchants, entrepreneurs in small businesses
manufacturing lots of farm, home and small business items and in repairing
them.  My husband's family interrmarried with some of them who spoke both
Russian and German, and our insurance agent for many years in Minnesota who
was a district head for his company, was proud to be a descendant of these
people.  They served in World War I in the U.S.--where their language skills
and knowledge of Russia were put to use.  Are you suggesting the Canadians
didn't utilize the skills of those who settled on that side of the border?

Respectfully,

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

At 12:52 PM 7/29/96 -0400, Zoli fekete wrote:

>On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
>>[rather fast-and-loose attack on Peter]
>
> Joe,
>
>this is truly uncalled for (I'm saying this as someone why myself have
>disagreements both with his substantive views and some of his phrasings)!
>I suggest that you should cut back the NPA in your diet ;-(...

Why is it uncalled for?  In my books, a heterosexist homophobe (yes, that's
what Peter Soltesz is) is the same as an anti-semite.  Let's remember that
both gays and jews, and others, were exterminated by the Nazi's.  I think my
comments to him were perfectly justified.

What would your reaction have been if Peter Soltesz meant that jews were the
"undesireable type" using the Turkish baths in Budapest?  Would you have
turned a blind eye to his comment?

Allowing Soltesz to get away with his comments is to tolerate homophobia.  I
don't tolerate it.

Joe Szalai

"All men are homosexual, some turn straight. It must be very odd to be a
straight man because your sexuality is hopelessly defensive. It's like an
ideal of racial purity."
                         Derek Jarman

On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

....(MATERIAL DELETED)....

>         I fully agree with Tibor Szekely's opinion of NBC's coverage.
> Disgusting is the only way to describe this nationalistic orgy. As for the
> "human interest stories," they are banal beyond description. They reminded a
> friend of mine of Hallmark ads on TV!
>
>         But, I am afraid, NBC is not going to pay much attention to his
> letter because of what I read in today's New York Times. Here are some
> excerpts from an article entitled "Ratings Vault Above Promises Made by NBC."
>
>         At least until Saturday, when a terror bomb moved the nation's
> attention away from the Olympic competition, the first week of NBC's
> coverage of the Olympic Games in Atlanta has been among the most successful
> and profitable weeks in network television history, with ratings reaching
> levels not seen since Nadia Comaneci was swining on a bar in the 1976
> Olympics in Montreal.
>
>         In the first week, NBC exceeded its prime-time Olymapics ratings
> guarantee to advertisers by more than 25 percent, providing a spectacular
> bonus for both its sponsors and the network. Indeed, ratings for the
> Olympics are well more than double NBC's previous summertime ratings.
>
>         Even better for NBC, a big part of the additional viewing has come
> from one group that the network aimed at especially hard with its Olympic
> promotions during the last year: younger women, an audience segment most
> desired by advertisers. After one week, NBC attracted 37 percent more women
> aged 18 to 34 to these Olympics than it had four years ago with the Olympic
> Games in Barcelona, Spain, and 67 percent more than the 1988 games in Seoul,
> South Korea.
>
>         END of quotes from the New York Times.
>
>         Obviously, there are people out there who just love hearing stories
> about X. and Y.'s grandpa!
>
>         Eva Balogh
>

As much as I would like to defend NBC's coverage of the Olympics, I
cannot.  I find them, while not insufferable, at least a pain in the
posterior.  Especially bothersome is John Tesh, whom I admired greatly
for his work several years ago at the Tour de France.  The work he has
done covering gymnastics has been embarrassing, from my point of view.
He needs to go back for a refresher course in Journalism 101 -
Entertainment Tonight and his music career have eroded his journalistic
skills badly.

One will have to admit, however, that NBC evidently has given the
majority of the audience what they want, given that American television,
for good or bad, is advertising-driven.  With ratings up dramatically,
and especially in the lucrative young women category, NBC and its
advertisers seem to have hit a gold mine.  However, one must remember
when looking at the ratings that to compare these Olympics to 1992 or
1988 is somewhat misleading, because there is no need for lengthy
tape-delayed broadcast of events.  The 1996 Olympics are "America's
Olympics," staged on the East Coast of the U.S., and held during prime
time without a time delay for probably half the U.S. population.  It does
not surprise me that ratings are up - they should be.

I would like to be able to say that NBC might listen to the complaints of
anyone who has a valid one and make some changes in the second week of
the Games.  That's not going to happen - the NBC executives know you
can't please everyone, can't get 100% of the audience, and therefore,
they'll look at the ratings and the demographics and continue doing what
they've been doing, because it appears to be the "correct decision" - and
for an American network, basing its continual survival on profit and
loss, the decision is a correct one. (I guess I did defend NBC to a
certain degree, after all.)

I will say that I was disappointed in not seeing the Hungarian team march
in as well as missing several other Central European and Baltic teams.


Frank A. Aycock, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Communication
Appalachian State University
Boone, NC 28608
E-Mail: 

Just in case you are interested,
                                     Amos
> ---------------------------------------------
1996 Olympic Games - Medal Standing

Olympic Medal Standings By Country

COUNTRY              GOLD SILVER BRONZE TOTAL
=======              ==== ====== ====== =====
United States         20    26      9     55
Germany                8    11     18     37
Russia                16    11      7     34
France                12     6     12     30
Australia              7     7     15     29
China                  9    11      7     27
Italy                 10     6      8     24
Cuba                   3     4      7     14
Canada                 2     6      6     14
Poland                 5     5      3     13
Romania                4     4      4     12
Hungary                4     3      5     12
Netherlands            1     3      7     11
Japan                  3     4      3     10
Korea                  3     4      2      9
Ukraine                2     1      5      8
Belarus                1     4      3      8
Britain                1     2      5      8
Brazil                 1     2      4      7
Bulgaria               0     3      4      7
Greece                 3     3      0      6
New Zealand            3     1      1      5
Belgium                2     1      2      5
Kazakhstan             1     3      1      5
Turkey                 3     0      1      4
Ireland                3     0      1      4
Czech Republic         1     2      1      4
Spain                  1     1      2      4
North Korea            1     1      2      4
Switzerland            3     0      0      3
South Africa           2     0      1      3
Finland                1     2      0      3
Slovak Republic        1     0      1      2
Yugoslavia             1     0      1      2
Denmark                1     0      1      2
Austria                0     1      1      2
Sweden                 0     1      1      2
Norway                 0     1      1      2
Ecuador                1     0      0      1
Costa Rica             1     0      0      1
Syria                  1     0      0      1
Ethiopia               1     0      0      1
Armenia                1     0      0      1
Croatia                0     1      0      1
Uzbekistan             0     1      0      1
Slovenia               0     1      0      1
Jamaica                0     1      0      1
Kenya                  0     1      0      1
Namibia                0     1      0      1
Moldova                0     0      1      1
Trinidad & Tobago      0     0      1      1
Mongolia               0     0      1      1
Mexico                 0     0      1      1
Georgia                0     0      1      1

Dear ALL....

I thank Zoli Fekete for his kind words.

The only thing that I am going to say in public about
Joe Szallai's nasty and uncalled for remarks is this:

I am ashamed tohave Joe be even remotely associated with
Hungarians.  Obviously his upbringing lacks substantial
materail nroamlly associated with Hungarians.  Joe Shame on You!

Peter Soltesz

On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Really me myself, cross my heart! wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
> >[rather fast-and-loose attack on Peter]
>
>  Joe,
>
> this is truly uncalled for (I'm saying this as someone why myself have
> disagreements both with his substantive views and some of his phrasings)!
> I suggest that you should cut back the NPA in your diet ;-(...
>
> - --
>  Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
> *SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
> *with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
> *excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!
>
>
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>

My favorite sign in this regard is the one I had seen in a UK pub:

"Nonsmoking is permitted"

Regards,Jeliko

Liviu Iordache writes:

> That's very interesting! I never doubted that most Romanian
> place-names ended in "-oara" are probably derived from Hungarian
> (Timisoara, Hunedoara). However, if Hunedoara's linguistic roots are
> indeed "Slovak," that's news to me. Are there any other Slovak-derived
> names in that region, and, if that is actually the case, what is  the
> interpretation associated with these occurrences ? I can think of one
> but let me keep it in my sleeve for a moment or two :-)

To my knowledge, there are numerous Slavic origin placenames in
Transylvania.
Examples are:

Steiu = Stejvaspatak in Hunedoara area
Toltia = Nagytoti  also in Hunedora area (interestingly it is not schei or
                                          sirbi)
Tautfalau = Totfalu
Tottelek = Totelec

also originally Slavic origin are

Girbau, Dorna, Ielciu, Cernuc, Zalha, Simisna, Lona, Jeica, Lechinta,
Lusca, Tarpiu, nasaud, Valcau, Babiu, Calian, Palatca, Sumurduc, Naoiu,
etc.

There are two communities from the orignal Hungarian name for Bulgarians
i.e. nandor which survived in Romanian as Nandru and Nandra.

The above are only examples and not a complete list.

There is a detailed discussion about this topic in the "Erdely Tortenete"
Volume I.

Regards,Jeliko

Norma Rudinsky writes:
> At the time of Hungarian arrival in central Europe, there wasn't really a
> set of DISTINCT Slavic languages, such as Slovak for Vysehrad and Serbian
> for Belgrad, from which Magyar would take and/or adapt place names.  But
> it is still (to me) most likely that borrowing occurred from the nearest
> local name instead of the borrowed name "spreading" around the country.

The  grad ending appears to have been derived from the by then Slavicized
Bulgarian.

Regards,Jeliko

In Joe Szalais comments his logic is impeccable for a moron. How one can
jump from one to the other is beyond me.

The fact is that now Joe has established himself as a supporter of gays
(homosexuals) and probably is one himself. Nevertheless, perhaps he would
be kind enough to explain to the audience how his impeccable logic
requires that he stand on his tongue, et al.

Perhaps it is time to find out what Joe does at the Library of Univ. of
Waterloo -- either the admission standards have really been watered down
or he is dusting books and nothing else to do except act like an ignoramous.
Peter Soltesz

For Shame that Canada has been suckered in by Joe Szalai and that he actually
might be associated with anything Hungarian is a poor co-incidence.

Perhaps they do not give enough homework at UW and the tests must be real
easy...in that you did not flunk out yet. Perhaps you are using your
E-mail account illegally. Maybe we ought to start a campaign to
investigate your activities on University time. I am sure that the dean
of UW would like to know about the abuses of your privileges????

Amos Danube writes:
>        One more thing. There is no such  thing as substituting for
>     "zsir" (lard).  I don't  give a hoot,  but it is  just not the
>     same - the food without "zsir" is only imitation Hungarian. If
>     all your concern is about the preservatives, make your own.
>                                                               Amos


Agree, agree, agree. Besides which there is more cholesterol in butter than
in lard.

Regards,Jeliko

Dear ;

At 10:02 PM 7/28/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Where are these places on a map: are they in the South, West, East or
>North of Hungary???? Along which border?
>
>Can you tell me anything about these cities?
>
>Debrecen
>Debrecsen (Nograd)
>
>What does the name mean?
>

According to some visitors we just had in this area from Debrecen, it is in
the northeast of Hungary, and a small city of about 50,000 persons. (small
by U.S. standards, that is.).  The term "nograd" by a city's name used to
mean "new city"--rather like New Ulm, Minnesota compared with Ulm, Germany.

The visitors described Debrecen as flat, often dusty (usually in the
summer), and with no lakes or rivers to speak of that allow for parks with
water in them.  A nice city, quiet, little crime, but not really beautiful
like some other Hungarian cities--a good business city, though.

Cecilia




N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

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On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, FRANK A. AYCOCK wrote:
> advertisers seem to have hit a gold mine.  However, one must remember
> when looking at the ratings that to compare these Olympics to 1992 or
> 1988 is somewhat misleading, because there is no need for lengthy
> tape-delayed broadcast of events.  The 1996 Olympics are "America's
> Olympics," staged on the East Coast of the U.S., and held during prime
> time without a time delay for probably half the U.S. population.  It does
> not surprise me that ratings are up - they should be.

 Ironically, there are lengthy tape-delayed broadcasts (misleadingly
termed 'near-live' os somesuch) still, reportedly more than one-third of
the time - in order to dramatize events like they did with the gymnastics!
This makes the cuts made to the opening ceremony even more inexcusible (if
that's possible ;-().

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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Dear Group;

At 01:15 PM 7/28/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Eva Balogh Wrote:
>
>>At the time when Mr. Nemenyi first posted his, by now infamous,
>>writing, even people whom I consider to be not at all "liberal" were
>>horrified!! Several people whom I considered to be the right of me by
>>a mile wrote in, saying: do you mean that you also believe the stories
>>about those poor witches in Europe and in North America?
>
>That so called infamous article  was  nothing  but  examples of events
>recorded by many different sources. I never  stated, that those events
>were accepted by the main stream masses, but pointed out the opposite.
>Mainly, that there were always fanatics who  ventured  away  from  the
>original scriptures. Of course the actions  of  the  few,  there  were
>prosecutions of the masses. And talking about the witches, we have in
>North America a Witch Society. It doesn't matter, that they are just
>human beings. Some of them are taking quite seriously their own beliefs,
>which are not aligning with the mainstream America.
>
>>Now, surely, not one of us believe that the medieval witch hunts had
>>any merit whatsoever!
>
>>Should we believe that Jewish blood libel cases had any merit whatsoever?
>
>I guess there were mostly drummed up cases, but if we reject all of them
>as false, then we can declare that the Bathory case never happened either.
>But it did!
>
Just a couple of observations about this debate:

When people argue about what the majority of people in another time may or
not have believed, or cared about, it is necessary to be careful not to
extrapolate too much of modern beliefs and behaviors.  Science as we know
it, and scientific knowledge didn't exist until recently, and most high
school graduates today (2/3 or more of most populations) still have not
taken more than a single real science course.  You'd be amazed at the stream
of newspaper polls that could be posted showing what lunacy large numbers of
people--even majorities--do believe, and worse, do act upon.  And this is
enlightened,modern mass media _today_--not religion and superstition
dominated societies that existed up until the 20th century.

In today's "San Jose Mercury News", front page is a story about the
_majority_ of Latin Americans in Silicon Valley believing the Stanford
hills, (and a lot of other rural--and non-rural areas) may be "haunted" by
"chupacabras" (goat-suckers--vampire like creatures about 3 feet tall,
flying and kangaroo-like with bulging red eyes).  Here is an exerpt from the
article.

        "Is 'el chupacabra' simply an urban legend? A genetic experiment (by
the U.S. military of course) gone bad? An extraterrestrial?  A marketing
ploy to sucker consumers into Web sites, T-shirts and records?
        All of the above, depending upon whom you ask.
        Although there is no solid evidence, such as photographs to verify
the accounts, everyone is eager to share opinions and theories.  A Los
Angeles radio station offered $1 million for the creature's carcass.  Puerto
Rican and Mexican government officials have mounted high-profile
investigations into chupabraca-suspected slayings."

In another article last year, it was noted that 60% of some several thousand
people queried in a good national statistical sample do not believe in
Darwin's theory of evolution for human beings.  The same 60% do believe in
the reality of an assortment of immortal and mythological beings--good, bad
and inbetween.

The good news is that at least in the last item, most of them claim personal
experience, unlike the third hand accounts of the chupabraca.

Now remember, this is the late 20th century.  We no longer have a U.S.
president saying as Teddy Roosevelt did that he believes in the superiority
of the white (read Franco-Anglo-Saxon) race (the speech was quoted on NPR
last week), and we no longer have key advisers to world leaders in the
leading powers telling presidents and ministers of the latest findings of
phrenology as an adjunct to foreign policy decisions. (Tuchman and several
others had some interesting descriptions of these situations, and there is
quite an exhibit about it in the Holocaust Memorial in Washington, DC).

Modern, "more-enlightened and sensible" society however, really doesn't seem
to have existed before the end of World War II.  It is possible that the
majority of people really did think other ethnicities and other races than
their own were inferior--and really didn't give a darn what happened to
anyone else besides themselves.  Now that last part is both ancient and
modern.  Although this is just my personal opinion, but based upon my own
experience and experiences that others have shared with me and what I've
read--which all in all is not the entire sum of 5 billion people--it seems
the Lutheran minister's poem of World War II is still valid to describe
people's attitudes and predictable actions, or inactions--if not their beliefs.

        "First they (the Nazis) came for the communists, but I was not a
communist, so I did not speak out, and I did not care.
        Then they came for the socialists, but I was not a socialist and did
not speak out and did not care.
        Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, and did not speak
out and did not care.
        Then they came for the gypsies, but I was not a gypsy, and did not
speak out and did not care.
        Then they came for the Catholics, but I was not a Catholic, and did
not speak out and did not care.
        Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out or care."

        Now combine this with the anthropologically documented human nature
tendency to get rid of those who are perceived different when there is any
fear or perception of an insufficiency of resources within a community.  Or
the same "natural" tendency to get rid of those who make the majority
uncomfortable in any way.  Is there anyone else around who is familiar with
Maslow's "Law of Needs" and the various theses relating that to human behavior?

        If one goes to Staunton, Virginia and visits the courthouse for
Augusta County, and peruses the volumes of court cases, one will eventually
find the last witchcraft trial in the U.S.--in 1795 or so against Mrs.
McDowell-Greenlee and Magdalena Woods-McDowell-Borden-Bowyer.  The case
fills two large volumes and has dozens and dozens of individual testimonies.
Most of the families in several counties eventually testified.  The ladies
were acquitted--barely.  It was amazing what nearly half the people who were
the family, friends, associates and even advisers of most of the Virginian
founding fathers of the entire U.S. believed.  It was amazing that all of
them did believe in the existence of demonic witchcraft at the time of the
trial. It was just that these ladies were not practicing it.  After the
trial, legislators did analyze the beliefs and quietly--without the advise
and consent of the majority--did finally do away with state witchcraft
crimes in the laws, a few years later.  By the way, Mrs. Bowyer was the
wealthiest woman in the entire western half of Virginia at the time, and had
a reputation of maintaining youthful looks and ability to move about well
beyond what was normally expected, and speaking her mind--which was
considered unusually well-informed...

Most people did believe in the existence of witchcraft and witches.  They
wrote laws against it and conducted trials even as late as after the
American Revolution.  Perhaps most of those who actually made the
accusations and arranged the arrests had other motives in mind, such as
getting rid of political opponents, or stealing resources that belonged to
others, but they played on real beliefs--beliefs that had been reinforced by
laws.  Some believed the political opponents were strong or wealthy
_because_ they were also witches, ergo, get rid of a witch who also happens
to be a political opponent or wealthy and one kills two birds with one stone.

Magdalena and her sister in law did apparently inherit what were considered
family/clan abilities such as being able to predict the weather, and
appeared to be able to read minds--at least some of the time.  Our modern
societies, although skeptical and puzzled, do generally  acknowledge the
existence of ESP, even if it is not as constant as we'd like for research
and governmental purposes.  There was recent a public television documentary
about Russian studies and apparent successes, that some people may remember.

The quite possibly real talents that Magdalena and her sister-in-law had
would have classified them as witches.  The case hinged partly on proving
they had these abilities and deliberately used them to cause harm, and that
if these abilities existed they were not natural, and were somehow anti-God.
That is, the nature of their birth, or later acquired talents physically
prevented them from being in churches, etc., etc.  (Magdalena's family had
built most of the churches--along with the schools--in the central
Shenandoah valley and she and her in laws frequented the churches regularly
with no ill effects to themselves or the churches, so this was partly
evidence in their favor...)


Finally, that same story written about a year ago, also showed that 60% of
the people in the U.S. today, still believe in the existence of witchcraft
and witches...

Respectfully,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose CA

(city that while being the capitol of Silicon Valley is also the
headquarters of the Ancient Mystical Order of the Rose Cross--Rosicrucians)
and the Winchester Mystery House, and holds "new age, psychic
fairs"--quarterly in the largest convention center in the area...)















N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

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On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> I thank Zoli Fekete for his kind words.
 I would've been a lot less kind had I written after your next-to-last
response to him - I don't think he's shown any particular support for
gays, nor do I think it would be wrong if he did. Do we need to escalate
combative nastiness flaring up on both sides now?

> I am ashamed tohave Joe be even remotely associated with
> Hungarians.  Obviously his upbringing lacks substantial
> materail nroamlly associated with Hungarians.  Joe Shame on You!
 Ah well - now step back and think for a moment how would you feel
having something like this said to you...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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