>>OK, Sam, since you let the cat outta box, you need to finish the thought:
>>how DOES one resolve cognitive dissonance? Isn't that the gist of your
>>(implied) message?
>>
>>Bandi
>
>Skin the cat.

Not precise  enough, since there are many ways. In a movie from the 70s,
"The Effect of Radiation on the Man-on-the-Moon Marigolds" a little girl
who competes for a prize at the Science Fair has a particularly deft way of
obtaining a clean cat skeleton. Nowadays, PETA would object. Hungarians
might not. I am sorry, but my years of "the art of motorcycle maintenance"
are behind me, and this is best I can do on short notice.

>Now that I've sent the Zen answer, let me try it again in a less concise and
>witty manner. If I recall my meager formal education in psychology -- one
>general survey course in undergraduate school, one graduate course in social
>psychology and one year spent working in a bar -- cognitive dissonance is
>resolved by altering one's beliefs, behavior or environment. Did I even come
>close, doc?
>Sam Stowe

BUT, more appropriately for your IMPLIED message regarding the Hungarian
psyche between 1945-1989....

 ...a person or GROUP behaves in a way that will maximize internal
consistency of his or her (or its) cognitive system. So if one's thoughts,
attitudes, beliefs are causing (psychological) discomfort, dissonance will
motivate a person (or group) to reduce it and to avoid situations and
INFORMATION which would likely increase it.

In this vein, lies, self-deception, denial, closing one's eye to truth,
etc. are mechanisms for reducing cognitive dissonance.

Yes?

Andrew

Kedves listatarsak!
Most probaltam ki elosszor a Microsoft Word 7 wordprocessor software-t. Rettene
tes hogy ezt nem tudom magyarul irni! Hatarozottan attol fugg hogy milyen softw
are-t hasznal az ember. 
I set Windows95 up with multilingual codepage and enabled use of accents. I get
 the hosszu vowels by pressing Ctrl-apostrophe and umlaut on the o and u by pre
ssing Ctrl/shift-apostrophe before the vowel required. I have not succeeded in 
typing the hosszu form of these letters. Of course if you use Eudora as your ma
il client all this does not work.
Elnezest kerek hogy angolra forditottam a szot, de ugy gondolom ezt konnyebben 
tudom igy megmagyarazni.
Nem tudom mi a jobb, ekezetek nelkul irni magyarul vagy ekezetekkel, es akkor v
annak olyanok akik nem tudjak egykonnyen el olvasni. 

Tisztelettel
Dénes 



----------
From:  Aniko Dunford[SMTP:]
Sent:  Wednesday, 19 February 1997 12:19
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: magyar stilisztika es helyesiras

Agnes:

The copy you received indeed looks strange below.  And, it resembles
nothing at all like what I received this am.  In fact, my receipt of the
post was absolutely perfectly legible in Hungarian with accents and all....
 not to mention it's content!  Bravo Denes!

Could it possibly be your Email program?  Perhaps some of the computer
whiz' might have an answer.
Regards, Aniko

>>Kedves Listat=E1rsak!
>>Kar=E1csony el=F6tt =F3ta k=F6vetem ezt a list=E1t =E9s l=E1tom hogy =
>>t=F6bben lekicsinylik eggyesek magyar helyes=EDr=E1s=E1nak =E9s =
>>st=EDlus=E1nak esetleges szeg=E9nys=E9g=E9t =E9s el=E9gtelens=E9g=E9t.
>>1945-ben 5 =E9ves koromban hagytam el szeretett haz=E1mat, =EDgy nem =
>>j=E1rtam, nem is j=E1rhattam magyarnyelv=FC iskol=E1ba. Ez nem jelenti =
>>azt hogy magyarvonatkoz=E1su dolgok, t=F6rt=E9nelem, n=E9prajz,r=E9gebbi
>=
>>=E9s mi magyar politika stb., nem =E9rdekel =E9s nincs ahoz =
>>hozz=E1szolnival=F3m =E9s hozz=E1szolni val=F3 jogom, m=E9gha azt =
>>esetleg nem a legkiv=E1l=F3bb magyar helyes=EDr=E1ssal teszem.=20
>>Ez=E9rt k=E9rem legyenek eln=E9z=F6ek =E9s halgassanak meg. =C9p=FCletes
>=
>>kritik=E1t elfogadok de k=E9rem ne b=EDr=E1lj=E1k a mondanival=F3mat =
>>esetleges stilisztikai vagy helyes=EDr=E1si hi=E1nyoss=E1gok alapjan.
>>
>>Maradok igaz tisztelettel
>>Bogs=E1nyi D=E9nes=20
>
>Az Istenert, Denes, ne probaljon ekezetesen irni!  Teljesen olvashatatlan
>a szoveg!
>
>Agnes
>
>

Barna Bozoki wrore:

<Alan Freeman writes ("Fast track to market economy dividing Hungary", The
<Globe and Mail, Febr. 17, 1997):

<In Hungary: "Real wages have dropped 17 per cent during the past two years,
<inflation remains high and economic growth at a crawl."

<Then quotes Attila Agh, a political scientist at Budapest's University of
<Economy: "Hungarians are ill-famed for their pessimism and their too high
<expectations."

<Very funny.

Not only that. Even worse. It is a problem.

MKH

At 11:01 AM 2/18/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Alan Freeman writes ("Fast track to market economy dividing Hungary", The
>Globe and Mail, Febr. 17, 1997):
>
>In Hungary: "Real wages have dropped 17 per cent during the past two years,
>inflation remains high and economic growth at a crawl."
>
>Then quotes Attila Agh, a political scientist at Budapest's University of
>Economy: "Hungarians are ill-famed for their pessimism and their too high
>expectations."
>
>Very funny.
>
>Barna Bozoki
>
>Just to further this funny article,I understand that the governement in
Hungary brought,and brings out so many different restrictions,that it is
making private
"enterprise" almost impossible.
This from some one,who I can trust to tell the truth.
Andy.

You probably mean the many, many egyeni vallalkozo-t ( small one-man
"enterprises" enabling you to write a bill ). Changes in deductions
introduced Jan. 1, 97 compelled thousands of them to return the license.
Since Hungary is in the possession of an expert government ( or was it
the other way around? ), it ( i.e. the Government. In british English
it would be "they" ) immediately took action :
a) first denied there was a problem
b) later - displaying infinite wisdom and benevolence along
   with and a strong and resolute devotion to an enterpreneurial
   economy - it started revamping the regulation. They are still
   working on that...( c) )es meg mindig elnek, ha meg nem haltak...

Do not misunderstand the situation : private enterprise IS possible.
Great many members of the ruling parties ( I was tempted to write
ruling classes ) are enterpreneurs, respectively executives of large
companies where the real power rests.

MKH

At 12:46 PM 2/18/97 +0100,Miklos Hoffman wrote:
>
><        Thus, my guess concerning the twenty percent of the leftist vote was
><actually a bit too low. If twenty-five percent of the voters (which
><constitutes the left around the MSZP) is considered leftist and if we add
><the close to five percent which voted for the Munkaspart then my guess was
><actually a bit too low. We may speak of thirty percent of the electorate. I
><wouldn't be surprised about that figure at all.
>
><       Eva Balogh
>
>The problem is the definition of left or not left...
>I am not sure whether I would define SzDSz as middle,
>or, mind you, right.
>And if you watch e.g. statements of exponents of KDNP,
>but other opposition parties, as well, about privatiza-
>tion and foreign capital, you think you are listening
>to the Munkaspart...
>
>Miklos
>
>

<True, but I don't think there is any controversy about the MSzP:  it is a
<party of the left.  Thus Eva's point is valid.

<Charlie Vamossy

No doubt, as ever ( mostly? ).

At 11:05 AM 2/19/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

<snip>
>Do not misunderstand the situation : private enterprise IS possible.
>Great many members of the ruling parties ( I was tempted to write
>ruling classes ) are enterpreneurs, respectively executives of large
>companies where the real power rests.

Yes, many members of the past, and present, ruling parties are
entrepreneurs.  And, if one considers all the black, or grey, markets that
are flourishing in Hungary, it might be appropriate to call these people
"entrepreneurchiks".

Joe Szalai

Hello Denes & welcome aboard!  I am sure you'll enjoy the group.
t 05:07 PM 19/02/97 +1100, you wrote:
>Kedves listatarsak!
>Most probaltam ki <[...]> snip}
 Of course if you use Eudora as your mail client all this does not work.
[...]
I beg to differ Denes.  I am using Eudora (Pro), and your message yesterday
came through without any probs.  I think that perhaps the operating system
might be the culprit.

Regards,
Aniko

At 10:19 PM 2/18/97 -0400, Aniko wrote:
>Agnes:
>
>The copy you received indeed looks strange below.  And, it resembles
>nothing at all like what I received this am.  In fact, my receipt of the
>post was absolutely perfectly legible in Hungarian with accents and all....
> not to mention it's content!  Bravo Denes!

        My copy was perfect also. I think it does depend on the e-mail
program. Mine is Eudora and letters I receive in Hungarian are perfect. But
I can't figure out how I could access accented letters. Maybe someone could
help.

        Eva Balogh

Andy writes:

>>Just to further this funny article,I understand that the governement in
>Hungary brought,and brings out so many different restrictions,that it is
>making private
>"enterprise" almost impossible.
By this, do you mean that the government is enforcing new tax laws and
regulation/controls in attempts to stunt the growth and or eliminate long
established abuse and tax evasion?

Regards
Aniko
>

In article >, 
says...
>
>Kedves Listat=E1rsak!
>Kar=E1csony el=F6tt =F3ta k=F6vetem ezt a list=E1t =E9s l=E1tom hogy =
>t=F6bben lekicsinylik eggyesek magyar helyes=EDr=E1s=E1nak =E9s =
>st=EDlus=E1nak esetleges szeg=E9nys=E9g=E9t =E9s el=E9gtelens=E9g=E9t.
>1945-ben 5 =E9ves koromban hagytam el szeretett haz=E1mat, =EDgy nem =
>j=E1rtam, nem is j=E1rhattam magyarnyelv=FC iskol=E1ba. Ez nem jelenti =
>azt hogy magyarvonatkoz=E1su dolgok, t=F6rt=E9nelem, n=E9prajz,r=E9gebbi
=
>=E9s mi magyar politika stb., nem =E9rdekel =E9s nincs ahoz =
>hozz=E1szolnival=F3m =E9s hozz=E1szolni val=F3 jogom, m=E9gha azt =
>esetleg nem a legkiv=E1l=F3bb magyar helyes=EDr=E1ssal teszem.=20
>Ez=E9rt k=E9rem legyenek eln=E9z=F6ek =E9s halgassanak meg. =C9p=FCletes
=
>kritik=E1t elfogadok de k=E9rem ne b=EDr=E1lj=E1k a mondanival=F3mat =
>esetleges stilisztikai vagy helyes=EDr=E1si hi=E1nyoss=E1gok alapjan.
>
>Maradok igaz tisztelettel
>Bogs=E1nyi D=E9nes=20

Az Istenert, Denes, ne probaljon ekezetesen irni!  Teljesen olvashatatlan
a szoveg!

Agnes

Nem szoftveres Agnes? Elvezze az absztrakt strukturak
szepseget!

:-)
Miklos

P.S. :.egyebkent en ekezetekkel kaptam meg...a mail szoftveren
kell muljon...

Andy writes:

>>Just to further this funny article,I understand that the governement in
>Hungary brought,and brings out so many different restrictions,that it is
>making private
>"enterprise" almost impossible.

<By this, do you mean that the government is enforcing new tax laws and
<regulation/controls in attempts to stunt the growth and or eliminate long
<established abuse and tax evasion?

I don4t think they had stunting growth in mind. Didn4t change -
especially established high level - abuse or tax evasion. Just
wanted higher revenues, as governments, especially socialist go-
vernments tend to. As an expert government, they just didn4t
consider the obvious side-effects. The side-effects now shoing
now, they are about to change regulation again.

Similar things happen with farming. Farmers start blocking the roads.
The Minister of Agriculture denied any problems to start with, refu-
sed to negotiate since there was nobody to negotiate with and now,
after the first larg-scale demonstrations is discovering that he always
had a deep understanding of the serious problems in the agriculture...
and of course a delegation of the Ministry went to the demonstrators...

An ailing economy is being taken as test object in a hectic trial-and-
error activism of rather helpless experts...

It is the magnitude, the increasing frequency and the again and again
same pattern is causing increasing uneasiness...

MKH

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   urgent

Background:
   According to a statement of  the Vice President of  J.P. Morgan
from last year the bank received assurances from the Water Development
Enterprise of Slovakia that none of the loans it lead manag for this
company was spent on the Gabcikovo dam.
   In November, 1996, Miroslav B. Liska, an employee of the Water
Development Enterprise of Slovakia, indicated that the company has
received a loan for end building of Gabcikovo by a group of banks
headed by J.P. Morgan.

What to do:
    Please send a letter to the Vice President of J.P Morgan and
protest. Feel free to use the attached letter.  
  REMEMBER WE HAVE ONLY 3 WEEKS LEFT TO ACT. PLEASE HELP!! EVERY
LETTER COUNTS!!

Fax 212-648-5210

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

Ms. Margaret W. Southerland
Vice President
J.P. Morgan
60 Wall Street
New York, NY  10260-0060

Re:  Loan to Slovakia

Dear Ms. Southerland,

According to a July, 1996 statement of your bank, J.P. Morgan received
assurances from the Water Development Enterprise of Slovakia that none
of the loans you manage for this company would be spent on the
Gabcikovo dam.

On November 26th, 1996, Miroslav B. Liska, an employee of the Water
Development Enterprise of Slovakia, indicated that the company
received a loan to finish the building of Gabcikovo from a group of
banks headed by J.P. Morgan.

Ms. Southerland, did J.P. Morgan manage the loan for the completion of
the Gabcikovo project?  If so, your bank not only neglected the
warnings of numerous environmental activists who recognized this
project as environmentally disastrous and illegal, but also acted
contrary to its July, 1996 statement.  Please clear this up.

[Peter -- in the next sentence, should "did" be "would do"?  What is
the time frame?] I would like to remind you that the Gabcikovo project
did to the Danube ("Szigetkoz" region) exactly what the Army Corps of
Engineers did to the Florida wetlands:  After spending hundreds of
millions of dollars to drain the wetlands and straighten out rivers
with costly dams, they have now realized that the water table, so
important to the State, was lowered and polluted.  Now they are
spending hundreds of millions of dollars more to return the system to
its original, natural state.

If your experts did not explain this to you, they did a very costly
disservice to you and your company.

Surely you would not wish to discover too late that J.P. Morgan has
been backing an ecological and financial disaster like the Slovakian 
project.

Sincerely,

<your name, title, address>

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   urgent

Background:
   According to a statement of  the Vice President of  J.P. Morgan
from last year the bank received assurances from the Water Development
Enterprise of Slovakia that none of the loans it lead manag for this
company was spent on the Gabcikovo dam.
   In November, 1996, Miroslav B. Liska, an employee of the Water
Development Enterprise of Slovakia, indicated that the company has
received a loan for end building of Gabcikovo by a group of banks
headed by J.P. Morgan.

What to do:
    Please send a letter to the Vice President of J.P Morgan and
protest. Feel free to use the attached letter.  
  REMEMBER WE HAVE ONLY 3 WEEKS LEFT TO ACT. PLEASE HELP!! EVERY
LETTER COUNTS!!

Fax 212-648-5210

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

Ms. Margaret W. Southerland
Vice President
J.P. Morgan
60 Wall Street
New York, NY  10260-0060

Re:  Loan to Slovakia

Dear Ms. Southerland,

According to a July, 1996 statement of your bank, J.P. Morgan received
assurances from the Water Development Enterprise of Slovakia that none
of the loans you manage for this company would be spent on the
Gabcikovo dam.

On November 26th, 1996, Miroslav B. Liska, an employee of the Water
Development Enterprise of Slovakia, indicated that the company
received a loan to finish the building of Gabcikovo from a group of
banks headed by J.P. Morgan.

Ms. Southerland, did J.P. Morgan manage the loan for the completion of
the Gabcikovo project?  If so, your bank not only neglected the
warnings of numerous environmental activists who recognized this
project as environmentally disastrous and illegal, but also acted
contrary to its July, 1996 statement.  Please clear this up.

I would like to remind you that the Gabcikovo project did to the 
Danube ("Szigetkoz" region) exactly what the Army Corps of 
Engineers did to the Florida wetlands:  After spending hundreds of
millions of dollars to drain the wetlands and straighten out rivers
with costly dams, they have now realized that the water table, so
important to the State, was lowered and polluted.  Now they are
spending hundreds of millions of dollars more to return the system to
its original, natural state.

If your experts did not explain this to you, they did a very costly
disservice to you and your company.

Surely you would not wish to discover too late that J.P. Morgan has
been backing an ecological and financial disaster like the Slovakian
project.

Sincerely,

<your name, title, address>

At 11:05 AM 2/19/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

<snip>
>Do not misunderstand the situation : private enterprise IS possible.
>Great many members of the ruling parties ( I was tempted to write
>ruling classes ) are enterpreneurs, respectively executives of large
>companies where the real power rests.

Yes, many members of the past, and present, ruling parties are
entrepreneurs.  And, if one considers all the black, or grey, markets that
are flourishing in Hungary, it might be appropriate to call these people
"entrepreneurchiks".

Perfect, Joe

Miklos

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   urgent

Background:
   According to a statement of  the Vice President of  J.P. Morgan
from last year the bank received assurances from the Water Development
Enterprise of Slovakia that none of the loans it lead manag for this
company was spent on the Gabcikovo dam.
   In November, 1996, Miroslav B. Liska, an employee of the Water
Development Enterprise of Slovakia, indicated that the company has
received a loan for end building of Gabcikovo by a group of banks
headed by J.P. Morgan.

What to do:
    Please send a letter to the Vice President of J.P Morgan and
protest. Feel free to use the attached letter.
  REMEMBER WE HAVE ONLY 3 WEEKS LEFT TO ACT. PLEASE HELP!! EVERY
LETTER COUNTS!!

Fax 212-648-5210

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

Ms. Margaret W. Southerland
Vice President
J.P. Morgan
60 Wall Street
New York, NY  10260-0060

Re:  Loan to Slovakia

Dear Ms. Southerland,

According to a July, 1996 statement of your bank, J.P. Morgan received
assurances from the Water Development Enterprise of Slovakia that none
of the loans you manage for this company would be spent on the
Gabcikovo dam.

On November 26th, 1996, Miroslav B. Liska, an employee of the Water
Development Enterprise of Slovakia, indicated that the company
received a loan to finish the building of Gabcikovo from a group of
banks headed by J.P. Morgan.

Ms. Southerland, did J.P. Morgan manage the loan for the completion of
the Gabcikovo project?  If so, your bank not only neglected the
warnings of numerous environmental activists who recognized this
project as environmentally disastrous and illegal, but also acted
contrary to its July, 1996 statement.  Please clear this up.

I would like to remind you that the Gabcikovo project did to the
Danube ("Szigetkoz" region) exactly what the Army Corps of
Engineers did to the Florida wetlands:  After spending hundreds of
millions of dollars to drain the wetlands and straighten out rivers
with costly dams, they have now realized that the water table, so
important to the State, was lowered and polluted.  Now they are
spending hundreds of millions of dollars more to return the system to
its original, natural state.

If your experts did not explain this to you, they did a very costly
disservice to you and your company.

Surely you would not wish to discover too late that J.P. Morgan has
been backing an ecological and financial disaster like the Slovakian
project.

Sincerely,

<your name, title, address>

to all whos information was helpfull,about todays economy in Hungary.
Andy.

At 10:17 PM 2/18/97 +0100, Miklos wrote, quoting Lippai and Dominus:
>
>>Kedves Dominus,
>>     Balogh hivatkozasat a 'fatherland'-re en is eszrevettem.  A nemetek
>>hasznaljak a 'fatherland'-t hazajukkal kapcsolatban.
>
>Wenn schon, Vaterland, bitte.
>>
>>> Eva, Eva, Eva,...
>>> In Hungarian it's motherland. -- Anyaorszag, anyafold.
>
>???
>
>Just for the record : patrista,

I meant <<patriota>>

<patriotizmus are part of th Hungarian
>vocabulary. Pro patria...is part of the history. Patriots should
>know that.

<       Oh, Miklos, you don't understand. This is part of dumping on Eva
<Balogh who is not patriotic enough. And one of the signs of her lack of
<patriotism is that in English she was talking about "fatherland" and not
<"motherland." Because Dominus whose English is on the most primitive level
<tells us that "motherland" is a perfectly OK English word but I, naughty,
<naughty girl, who calls every Hungarian a Nazi, deliberately used the word
<"fatherland," just to drive it home again that Hungary is a fascist country.
<And it goes on and on and on!! Never mind that no one ever uses the word
<"motherland" in English. Yes, Dominus is right: the word is in the
<dictionary but in capital letters it also says: FATHERLAND. And that in
<Webster's dictionary means: Look there, you dummy!

Maybe, I was always a bit nai:ve.

Poor Eva, if she is not patriotic enough, is she at least
matriotic? That would fit to motherland. I have problems with
parentland ( how wonderfully evenhanded! it doesn4t fit in the
age of womenlib, however. ( PLEASE DESREGARD. I DON4T DARE TO OPEN UP A
NEW FRONT! )) ( szueloefoeld ), as well.

Well, balancing parantheses was a matter of luck in maths in the
gimi.
I better stop, before we go neurotic. Or did we leave the
point of no return?

Take care!
Miklos

At 10:17 PM 2/18/97 +0100, Miklos wrote, quoting Lippai and Dominus:
>
>>Kedves Dominus,
>>     Balogh hivatkozasat a 'fatherland'-re en is eszrevettem.  A nemetek
>>hasznaljak a 'fatherland'-t hazajukkal kapcsolatban.
>
>Wenn schon, Vaterland, bitte.
>>
>>> Eva, Eva, Eva,...
>>> In Hungarian it's motherland. -- Anyaorszag, anyafold.
>
>???
>

>Just for the record : patrista, patriotizmus are part of th Hungarian
             I meant : patriota

>vocabulary. Pro patria...is part of the history. Patriots should
>know that.

       Oh, Miklos, you don't understand. This is part of dumping on Eva
Balogh who is not patriotic enough. And one of the signs of her lack of
patriotism is that in English she was talking about "fatherland" and not
"motherland." Because Dominus whose English is on the most primitive level
tells us that "motherland" is a perfectly OK English word but I, naughty,
naughty girl, who calls every Hungarian a Nazi, deliberately used the word
"fatherland," just to drive it home again that Hungary is a fascist country.
And it goes on and on and on!! Never mind that no one ever uses the word
"motherland" in English. Yes, Dominus is right: the word is in the
dictionary but in capital letters it also says: FATHERLAND. And that in
Webster's dictionary means: Look there, you dummy!

        Eva Balogh

I dunno how, something went wrong...

My comment was :

Maybe, I am somewhat nai:ve.

Poor Eva, if she is not patriotic enough. Is she though matriotic,
instead? That would fit to motherland.

I have problems with parentland, Szueloefoeld ( how wonderfully even-
handed! it doesn4t fit, however, in the age of womenlib ( PLEASE DES-
REGARD! I DON4T DARE TO OPEN UP THIS FRONT!!! )) ( Balancing paranthe-
ses was always a matter of luck in maths in the gimi ).

Take care
Miklos

A HUNGARY listan, a Balogh es
magyar gyulolo cinkosai alig varjak, hogy hazankat nepunket fasisztanak es
antiszemitistanak mazoljak.  Azon a listan van egy Kozma nevu zsido aki
tenyleg utalja es szapulja a hazankat es nepunket.  Ne a vallast hanem az
embert nezzetek.
Well I have this question?Do I have the right to copy this statement about
myself?
I would appreciate Jeliko,you oppinion about this.
On the other hand I wonder how come this deranged Lippai is allowed to
slander somebody,whom he never met,or talked to.
Truthfully,at the first reading I got hot under my collar,but after,I jus
realised,if I hate hungary and hungarians,this would be an excellent reason.
I have more than this,but I still can not hate all the poeple,neither in
Hungary,nor anywhere else.
What they did to myself and my family was not a glorious.
I have my oppinion,and that is realy not very flatering,about those times in
Hungary.
Andy.

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   urgent

Background:
   According to a statement of  the Vice President of  J.P. Morgan
from last year the bank received assurances from the Water Development
Enterprise of Slovakia that none of the loans it lead manag for this
company was spent on the Gabcikovo dam.
   In November, 1996, Miroslav B. Liska, an employee of the Water
Development Enterprise of Slovakia, indicated that the company has
received a loan for end building of Gabcikovo by a group of banks
headed by J.P. Morgan.

What to do:
    Please send a letter to the Vice President of J.P Morgan and
protest. Feel free to use the attached letter.
  REMEMBER WE HAVE ONLY 3 WEEKS LEFT TO ACT. PLEASE HELP!! EVERY
LETTER COUNTS!!

Fax 212-648-5210

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

Ms. Margaret W. Southerland
Vice President
J.P. Morgan
60 Wall Street
New York, NY  10260-0060

Re:  Loan to Slovakia

Dear Ms. Southerland,

According to a July, 1996 statement of your bank, J.P. Morgan received
assurances from the Water Development Enterprise of Slovakia that none
of the loans you manage for this company would be spent on the
Gabcikovo dam.

On November 26th, 1996, Miroslav B. Liska, an employee of the Water
Development Enterprise of Slovakia, indicated that the company
received a loan to finish the building of Gabcikovo from a group of
banks headed by J.P. Morgan.

Ms. Southerland, did J.P. Morgan manage the loan for the completion of
the Gabcikovo project?  If so, your bank not only neglected the
warnings of numerous environmental activists who recognized this
project as environmentally disastrous and illegal, but also acted
contrary to its July, 1996 statement.  Please clear this up.

[Peter -- in the next sentence, should "did" be "would do"?  What is
the time frame?] I would like to remind you that the Gabcikovo project
did to the Danube ("Szigetkoz" region) exactly what the Army Corps of
Engineers did to the Florida wetlands:  After spending hundreds of
millions of dollars to drain the wetlands and straighten out rivers
with costly dams, they have now realized that the water table, so
important to the State, was lowered and polluted.  Now they are
spending hundreds of millions of dollars more to return the system to
its original, natural state.

If your experts did not explain this to you, they did a very costly
disservice to you and your company.

Surely you would not wish to discover too late that J.P. Morgan has
been backing an ecological and financial disaster like the Slovakian
project.

Sincerely,

<your name, title, address>

Andy Kozma writes:

>A HUNGARY listan, a Balogh es
>magyar gyulolo cinkosai alig varjak, hogy hazankat nepunket fasisztanak es
>antiszemitistanak mazoljak.  Azon a listan van egy Kozma nevu zsido aki
>tenyleg utalja es szapulja a hazankat es nepunket.  Ne a vallast hanem az
>embert nezzetek.
>Well I have this question?Do I have the right to copy this statement about
>myself?
>I would appreciate Jeliko,you oppinion about this.
>On the other hand I wonder how come this deranged Lippai is allowed to
>slander somebody,whom he never met,or talked to.
>Truthfully,at the first reading I got hot under my collar,but after,I jus
>realised,if I hate hungary and hungarians,this would be an excellent reason.
>I have more than this,but I still can not hate all the poeple,neither in
>Hungary,nor anywhere else.
>What they did to myself and my family was not a glorious.
>I have my oppinion,and that is realy not very flatering,about those times in
>Hungary.
>Andy.
>

You have a right to copy anything you like Andy. My wonderment is the desire
to participate in lists (there is no indication where the message
originated) where this type of discussion is going on. If it was a list in
which I have participated, I would fight my battles about it on that list.
But if your reposting here was to indicate
the manner of discussion on another list, I am glad that I am not
participating in it.

In the past, I have also received personal hate letters from some Romanian
and Slovak
list participants when I have posted historical items that they have
(apparently violently) disagreed with. I do not draw the conclusion from
those hate letters that all Romanians or all Slovaks (or for that matter any
significant majority in those countries) hate me or hate Hungarians or
Hungary in general.

The postings are made by individuals, and generalization in any direction
can not be justified. One can always draw extensive conclusions about the
individual who posts just by the style and the language used (and I do not
mean grammatical or spelling correctness), completly aside from the text itself
.

As the saying goes: If one wrestles with pigs he will get filthy and the
pigs enjoy it"

Regards,Jeliko

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>=======================================================
>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: Re: A treasure to share ( 34 sor )
>Idopont: Tue Feb 18 05:55:08 EST 1997 HUNGARY #918
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>looking back thru my old english/hungarian cookbooks i found Susan Derecskey's
>"Hungarian Cookbook" (Harper, 1972 87-ed 0060914378) likewise a great book!
>yes, i wanna see Kende's book.. any isbn would be appreciated...
>
>btw: anyone got a good basic recipe for tepertu" so i can make poga'csa?
>i admit that's one thing i've never been successful with...
>
>my past successes have included
>mada'r tely, szilva's gomboc, rakot ka'poszta, lecso, lebencs leves
>and my favorites, bor s megy leves... (god i miss my mom's cooking)
>
>janos
>
>
>Aniko Dunford ) wrote:
>: To all:
>
>: Many months ago we had some discussion regarding the cuisine of Hungary and
>: requests for some recipies were shared.
>
>: For those of you, who are unable to find Hungarian cookbooks written in
>: English; I do believe that I've discovered a treasure to behold - right
>: amongst us.  Eva Kende's Hungarian Kitchen has recently arrived and has
>: quickly become a treasured addition to my collection.  For anyone, looking
>: for a great hungarian cookbook written in English, while recipies are also
>: identified in Hungarian (with a Hungarian index to boot) I highly recommend
>: it!  Enough so, that I have already requested additional copies for gifts .
>
>: Regards, Aniko
>: PS:  No, I am not being a paid a commission, nor is this an advertisement .
>: Just thought I'd share the find with you all.  If you're reading this Eva K
>: - my sincere congrats!  You did a wonderful job!  It's a great cookbook!
>
>--
>
>=======================================================
BACON SCRAP BISCUITS
Tepertos Pogácsa

Take a plateful of fried bacon scraps; chop very fine, and mix with 2
pounds of flour; make a hoIe in the centre, drop into it 2 whole eggs, I
ounce of yeast, soaked in milk, and add sufficient quantity of sour cream,
to make a good fir:n dough; roll it out about I inch thick, cut out fancy
shaped biscui;s and score the top with criss-cross pattern.  Put in a warm
place: and let it rise.  Brush the top with the yolks of eggs; put into a
quick oven and bake crisply.

From "Hungarian Cookery" published by Paprikás Weiss in New York


Crackling Scones (Tepertos pogácsa)

5oog - 1lb. flour, 275 g - 10oz.
minced pork crackling, 25 g - 1oz.
yeast, I egg.  I/2 tsp salt,  about 200 Ml -
 1/3 pint sour cream, a good
pinch of ground black pepper.


Rub together the flour, minced cracklings, salt and crumbled veast
Addthe egg, pepper andenough sourcream to make
a.not too soft dough. Cover with a warm cloth and allow to rise lot i/2 hour .
 Turn the dough out onto a floured pastry board and roll to finger-thickness.
 Score the top with a knife in a crisscross pattern, then  stamp out with
 a scone-cutter.  Place the scones on a lightly greased baking tin and leave
 to rise for another I5 minutes.  Brush the tops with milk and bake in a hot
 oven for 15-2o minutes.

From "Treasure Trove of Hungarian Cookery, by Mariska Vizvári, Corvina
kiadó, 1981




TEPERTOS POGACSA
Crackling Biscuits
makes about 30 biscuits

        1       package granulated yeast                        1/2     cup
sour cream
        1       tsp sugar
3       egg yolks
        1/4 cup lukewarm water                                1/4 cup rum
        3       cups unbleached, all-purpose flour        12      ounces
diced salt pork
       1/2  tsp salt                                                    1
cup water
        2       tsp baking powder                                    2
Tbsp water
        1/2 cup milk                                                     3
Tbsp flour
        6       Tbsp butter                                             1
beaten egg

Dissolve yeast and sugar in 1/4 cup of lukewarm water.  Set aside.  Place
flour into a bowl.  Add salt and baking powder.  In a saucepan, heat milk
and add butter, stirring until melted.  Add sour cream and beat with a
whisk until smooth.  Add the milk mixture to flour along with yeast.  Mix
until well blended.  Add egg yolks and rum.  Knead for 2-3 minutes, until
the dough is smooth and elastic.  Place dough in a greased bowl, cover, and
let it rise in a warm place for about 45 minutes or until doubled in bulk.
While dough is rising, make up the cracklings.
Place salt pork in a skillet with I cup water.  Cook uncovered over
medium-high heat, stirring occasionally, until pieces turn golden in color.
Remove them with a slotted spoon and place them into another skillet.
Sprinkle with 2 tablespoons of water.  Continue cooking stirring
frequently, until golden brown on all sides.  Drain crackings on paper
towels and cool them.  Mince cracklings and mix with 3 tablespoons of
flour.  Roll the dough out on a lightly floured board into a rectangle
about 1/2 -inch thick.  Spread cracklings over dough.  Fold one third of
the rectangle over the cracklings, then fold the other third over it.  Turn
the dough with the open end towards you.  Roll out again into about a 6'" x
12" rectangle and fold into thirds.  Wrap in wax paper and refrigerate for
30 minut(ts.  Roll out into a rectangle and fold into thirds.  Repeat the
rolling and folding.  Rewrap the dough into plastic and wax paper and
refrigerate for 1 hour before baking.  Roll dough out to 3/4 -inch
thickness.  Cut into rounds with a 2 -inch cookie cutter.  Score the top of
the biscuits in a criss-cross fashion.  Place on a lightly greased baking
sheet.  Cover and let rise for about 30-40 minutes.  Brush with beaten egg
and bake in a preheated 350şoven for 25-30 minutes or until golden brown.

From "ALL ALONG THE DANUBE"  by Marina Pulvay, Prentice-Hall, 1979


My wife uses the 2nd, Vizvari recipe.

Good luck         Karoly

At 12:46 PM 2/18/97 +0100, Miklos wrote:

>The problem is the definition of left or not left...
>I am not sure whether I would define SzDSz as middle,
>or, mind you, right.

        In my humble opinion there is not much in the middle. Maybe the
MDNP, because the FIDESZ is edging toward the right. The SZDSZ, which
six-seven years ago sounded like the most consistently pro-free market party
and at the same time the most critical of the former communists, has lost
its distinguishing features by now. But, I think that the hard-core voters
of the MSZP are farther to the left than those who are in leading positions
at the moment.

>And if you watch e.g. statements of exponents of KDNP,
>but other opposition parties, as well, about privatiza-
>tion and foreign capital, you think you are listening
>to the Munkaspart...

        Oh, yes, they are practically indistinguishable. This is what I have
been trying to explain to those on the Internet who expound right-wing
ideologies. Of course, they hotly deny that they have anything to do with
the left. (It is only my "mania" that I keep repeating this when they had
always hated the Kadar regime and the marxist-leninist ideology. Of course,
they don't realize that one doesn't have to be a marxist-leninist in order
to expound socialist ideas.)
        By the way, one of the vice-presidents of the Munkaspart has been
active on one of the HIX lists ever since before Christmas. He also
approached me privately. I answered him saying that if I were one of them I
sure wouldn't attack the Horn government with such vehemence because with
their criticism they are only helping the right and the Munkaspart will not
be terribly happy with a Torgyan government, for example, even if as far as
social demagoguery goes Dr. Torgyan sounds very much like someone from the
Munkaspart. To which he answered that: yes, I am right but the Munkaspart
means it while the right doesn't!

        Eva Balogh

At 08:37 AM 2/19/97 -0400, Aniko wrote:
>Andy writes:
>
>>>Just to further this funny article,I understand that the governement in
>>Hungary brought,and brings out so many different restrictions,that it is
>>making private
>>"enterprise" almost impossible.
>By this, do you mean that the government is enforcing new tax laws and
>regulation/controls in attempts to stunt the growth and or eliminate long
>established abuse and tax evasion?

        Yes, Aniko, this is exactly what they have been trying to do. But,
at the same time, one must admit that taxes are high in Hungary. The only
problem is that the people who pay the taxes and grumble don't realize that
high taxes are necessary in order to pay pensions to so many people. And we
have not even talked about the half a million "disabled." Half a million in
a country of ten million! There is a connection between "my taxes" and "his
disability" but few people make that connection. In the good old days money
came from somewhere: mostly from foreign banks. And that's the other reason
for the high taxes.

        Eva Balogh

At 01:52 PM 2/19/97 -0500, Andy Kozma wrote:
>A HUNGARY listan, a Balogh es
>magyar gyulolo cinkosai alig varjak, hogy hazankat nepunket fasisztanak es
>antiszemitistanak mazoljak.  Azon a listan van egy Kozma nevu zsido aki
>tenyleg utalja es szapulja a hazankat es nepunket.  Ne a vallast hanem az
>embert nezzetek.

        First of all, we have a new word in Hungarian (and I guess in
practically all the Western languages) thanks to our patriot: antiszemitista.

>Truthfully,at the first reading I got hot under my collar,but after,I jus
>realised,if I hate hungary and hungarians,this would be an excellent reason.

        Oh, I know only too well how you feel. Sometimes I am enraged at the
incredible insults being hurdled at me and I know that the best thing would
be to ignore them. I even manage to do so for a few weeks. But sooner or
later I get very, very mad. In my calmer moments I know that these people
are just terribly ignorant or they have psychological problems. (I am
convinced, for example, that my own tormentor is definitely a pathological
woman hater.) Yes, it would be awfully nice to shut them up but we can't.
        Don't get too upset. Easier said than done, I know.

        Eva

At 05:29 PM 2/19/97 +0100, Mikalos wrote:

>As an expert government, they just didn4t
>consider the obvious side-effects. The side-effects now shoing
>now, they are about to change regulation again.

        Of course, Miklos is sarcastic here. This government came in as an
"government of experts." Well, it turned out to be anything but that. The
problem is--which few people would admit--that the so-called experts of the
existing-socialism days are not really experts. In fact, I find it amazing
how lawyers parade as economists; sociologists as historians; historians as
sociologists, and so on and so forth.

>An ailing economy is being taken as test object in a hectic trial-and-
>error activism of rather helpless experts...
>
>It is the magnitude, the increasing frequency and the again and again
>same pattern is causing increasing uneasiness...

        Terribly true. Most of the decisions are ad hoc, full of holes, not
thought through and so on and so forth. The funny thing is that this bunch
of "experts" were making fun of the members of the former government as
absolute neophites. Meanwhile this government's history has been twice as
rocky as was Antall's during the same period. Twice as many ministers
departed from the Horn-government in the first two years than from the
Antall government during the first two years.

        Eva Balogh

At 17:01 19-02-1997 -0500, you wrote:
>
>In the past, I have also received personal hate letters from some Romanian
>and Slovak
>list participants when I have posted historical items that they have
>(apparently violently) disagreed with. I do not draw the conclusion from
>those hate letters that all Romanians or all Slovaks (or for that matter any
>significant majority in those countries) hate me or hate Hungarians or
>Hungary in general.
>
>
>Regards,Jeliko
>

I didn't notice what you wrote about, but I get this kind of thing all the
time from people who are not so tolerant of information to which they don't
know about or have learned the opposite things about. It's pretty obvious
that this is precisely the type of old hatred that perpetuates continuously
between Magyars, Slovaks, Romanians, Serbs, etc.

Doug Holmes

   ================================================================
Doug da Rocha Holmes            | Doug Holmes - Director
------------------------------- | Hungarian/American Friendship Society
Specialist in Azorean Genealogy | Website: www.dholmes.com/hafs.html
Website: www.dholmes.com        | (Specializing in Hungarian & Slovak genealogy
)
   ================================================================

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	 (Barbara Wampole)
Reply-to:	
To:	
Date: 97-02-04 22:37:08 EST

My friend in the San Francisco sent me your message. I am vice chairman
of the Friends of the Santa Clara River. We are a non-profit group which
formed in 1993 as a coalition of environmental groups to participate on
the steering committee of the Santa Clara River Enhancement and
Management Plan. This is a very difficult process and we are struggling
to resolve differences between the competing interest on the river. 
I can only imagine the horror you live with in seeing the impacts on the
Danube.
We will spread the word about your needs as quickly as we can to as many
people as we can think of. Among our related organizations the Sierra
Club of both Los Angeles and VenturaCounty, Audubon of Ventura County
and several others. We may duplicate their efforts.But we have a home
page and it is linked to the State of California Rivers Assessment
project. They are tied to universities and I will try to send it along
to them.
Our home page is http://envirolink.org/FSCR.
We are committed to preserving the resources of the last major natural
river in southern California and are currently overwhelmed by responding
to the Los Angeles County Planners release of a plan by a developer who
wants to situate a residential (urban sprawl) development of 70,000
people directly around the river. We would prefer to devote our energy
to inspiring people to appreciate and respect the river. Chances are we
will end up supporting litigation.

Our best wishes in your struggle. We will be listening for news.Please
feel free to email us to keep us updated.

Barbara Wampole
-- 
Barbara Wampole
28006 San Martinez Grande Road
Saugus, CA 91384-2306                                   
805-257-3036 voice
805-294-9290 fax


http://www.ikon.com
http://envirolink.org/FSCR

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	 (Barbara Wampole)
Reply-to:	
To:	
Date: 97-02-04 22:37:08 EST

My friend in the San Francisco sent me your message. I am vice chairman
of the Friends of the Santa Clara River. We are a non-profit group which
formed in 1993 as a coalition of environmental groups to participate on
the steering committee of the Santa Clara River Enhancement and
Management Plan. This is a very difficult process and we are struggling
to resolve differences between the competing interest on the river. 
I can only imagine the horror you live with in seeing the impacts on the
Danube.
We will spread the word about your needs as quickly as we can to as many
people as we can think of. Among our related organizations the Sierra
Club of both Los Angeles and VenturaCounty, Audubon of Ventura County
and several others. We may duplicate their efforts.But we have a home
page and it is linked to the State of California Rivers Assessment
project. They are tied to universities and I will try to send it along
to them.
Our home page is http://envirolink.org/FSCR.
We are committed to preserving the resources of the last major natural
river in southern California and are currently overwhelmed by responding
to the Los Angeles County Planners release of a plan by a developer who
wants to situate a residential (urban sprawl) development of 70,000
people directly around the river. We would prefer to devote our energy
to inspiring people to appreciate and respect the river. Chances are we
will end up supporting litigation.

Our best wishes in your struggle. We will be listening for news.Please
feel free to email us to keep us updated.

Barbara Wampole
-- 
Barbara Wampole
28006 San Martinez Grande Road
Saugus, CA 91384-2306                                   
805-257-3036 voice
805-294-9290 fax


http://www.ikon.com
http://envirolink.org/FSCR

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	
To:	, 
Date: 97-02-04 13:09:23 EST

Dear Mr. Szabo and Liptak,

Thank you both for the info you send.
I'm only an intermediairy in this matter, I really can not make time 
for (another) volunteer job... I'm building an office at the moment 
for NGO access to the Internet (E-mail, newsgroups, website) and 
after that I'll have to start a new web site on sustainable 
development.
You and/or the students are welcome here to use this facility when 
you stay in The Hague.

This is what I did:

- I contacted 'Milieucontact Oost-Europa', a specialised NGO in
  Amsterdam and forwarded your info. They might pick up the
  coordination on the students accomodation. If so, you will
  hear from them directly.
- There will be a small article in the The Hague Environmental Agenda
- I found out the hotel 'Seabreeze' in The Hague (Scheveningen, at
  the coast) is a cheap place, where many students come.
  Phone: +31-703524145 fax: +31-703514830.
- Two other NGO's have to call me back.

If you like, we could do a 'special' on the dDH web site 
(www.ddh.nl), informing about the case and linking to the web site 
about the dam.

All the best,
Boyd Noorda



> Datum verzending: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:09:29 +0000 (GMT)
> Van:              "M. Szabo" >
> Aan:              
> Onderwerp:        Re: Help law-students to hear the first environmental
lawsu

> Dear Boyd Noorda,
> 
> I was really pleased that you kindly offered your help. I have been
> examining the decisions of International Court of Justice, and I am quite
> convinced that the Court's decisions are basically motivated by political
> considerations. The attention of the public opinion of the involved
> countries are always taken into consideration. There is a certain level of
> additional risk in the present case: many judges are coming from
> developing countries, in which victory-over-the-nature type huge projects
> are still sometimes regarded as favourable things. This is the reason
> why I try to organise that 30 lawstudents could attend at the lawsuit,
> expressing a clear interest in an environmentally sound settlement.
> 
> So far the students got minimal financial support, and we would very
> warmly wellcome your help in this regard. But I have to add, that also  I
> met with another problem. It is extremly difficult to organise a cheap
> accomodation in The Hague from abroad. Therefore I would like to request
> you to help me to find the cheapest possible accommodation in The Hague.
> The students will arrive on the 2nd March and they will leave The Hague on
> the 15th March 1997.      
> 
> I would like to strengthen again how much I do appreciate your help.
> 
> With best wishes:
> 
>                 Marcel Szabo
> 
> 
=== Hope on the Balkans/Protests in Serbia:  http://www.ddh.nl/fy ===
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|             Socia Media: working for sustainable media            |
|        P.O. box 13510, 2501 EM  The Hague, The Netherlands        |
| E-mail:   Voice: +31-703654124 (fax on request) |
|         World Wide Web: http://www.sociamedia.nl/home.html        |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	
To:	, 
Date: 97-02-04 13:09:23 EST

Dear Mr. Szabo and Liptak,

Thank you both for the info you send.
I'm only an intermediairy in this matter, I really can not make time 
for (another) volunteer job... I'm building an office at the moment 
for NGO access to the Internet (E-mail, newsgroups, website) and 
after that I'll have to start a new web site on sustainable 
development.
You and/or the students are welcome here to use this facility when 
you stay in The Hague.

This is what I did:

- I contacted 'Milieucontact Oost-Europa', a specialised NGO in
  Amsterdam and forwarded your info. They might pick up the
  coordination on the students accomodation. If so, you will
  hear from them directly.
- There will be a small article in the The Hague Environmental Agenda
- I found out the hotel 'Seabreeze' in The Hague (Scheveningen, at
  the coast) is a cheap place, where many students come.
  Phone: +31-703524145 fax: +31-703514830.
- Two other NGO's have to call me back.

If you like, we could do a 'special' on the dDH web site 
(www.ddh.nl), informing about the case and linking to the web site 
about the dam.

All the best,
Boyd Noorda



> Datum verzending: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:09:29 +0000 (GMT)
> Van:              "M. Szabo" >
> Aan:              
> Onderwerp:        Re: Help law-students to hear the first environmental
lawsu

> Dear Boyd Noorda,
> 
> I was really pleased that you kindly offered your help. I have been
> examining the decisions of International Court of Justice, and I am quite
> convinced that the Court's decisions are basically motivated by political
> considerations. The attention of the public opinion of the involved
> countries are always taken into consideration. There is a certain level of
> additional risk in the present case: many judges are coming from
> developing countries, in which victory-over-the-nature type huge projects
> are still sometimes regarded as favourable things. This is the reason
> why I try to organise that 30 lawstudents could attend at the lawsuit,
> expressing a clear interest in an environmentally sound settlement.
> 
> So far the students got minimal financial support, and we would very
> warmly wellcome your help in this regard. But I have to add, that also  I
> met with another problem. It is extremly difficult to organise a cheap
> accomodation in The Hague from abroad. Therefore I would like to request
> you to help me to find the cheapest possible accommodation in The Hague.
> The students will arrive on the 2nd March and they will leave The Hague on
> the 15th March 1997.      
> 
> I would like to strengthen again how much I do appreciate your help.
> 
> With best wishes:
> 
>                 Marcel Szabo
> 
> 
=== Hope on the Balkans/Protests in Serbia:  http://www.ddh.nl/fy ===
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|             Socia Media: working for sustainable media            |
|        P.O. box 13510, 2501 EM  The Hague, The Netherlands        |
| E-mail:   Voice: +31-703654124 (fax on request) |
|         World Wide Web: http://www.sociamedia.nl/home.html        |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

In a message dated 97-02-09 18:27:12 EST,
 (George Williams) writes:

>Date:	97-02-09 18:27:12 EST
>From:	 (George Williams)
>To:	
>
>Kedves jo Bela,
>Halasan koszonom "a csekkecskeket" - nem is olyan kicsiny osszeg. Nagyon
>halas
>vagyok! Mar ezt is utjara bocsajtottam. Koszonom szepen rendkivul ertekes
>csango beszamolojat. Elkuldtem Atzel Bandinak. Atzel szinte kizarolag a
>moldvai csangokkal torodik, a gyimesieket nelkule is megvannak. Minden
>munkaja
>az eldugott moldvaia falukra osszpontosul. Rengeteg TV antennat szerelt fel.
>En is Moldvaba kisertem el s talalkoztam "az embereivel", akik gondjat
>viselik
>a kulturalis tulelesnek. Szent munka, valoban. Halas vagyok az Istennek,
hogy
>reszese lehetek, ha igen csekely mertekben is.
>Halasan koszonom, hogy bizalmaba fogadott s segitett segiteni. S koszonjuk,
>hogy az amerikai s a vilag magyarsaga elere allott, tuzoszlopkent. Kovetjuk!
>Szerencses utat es sok sikert kivanok, nagy szeretettel,
>Gellerd Judit
>____________________________________


---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	 (George Williams)
To:	
Date: 97-02-09 18:27:12 EST

Kedves jo Bela,
Halasan koszonom "a csekkecskeket" - nem is olyan kicsiny osszeg. Nagyon
halas
vagyok! Mar ezt is utjara bocsajtottam. Koszonom szepen rendkivul ertekes
csango beszamolojat. Elkuldtem Atzel Bandinak. Atzel szinte kizarolag a
moldvai csangokkal torodik, a gyimesieket nelkule is megvannak. Minden
munkaja
az eldugott moldvaia falukra osszpontosul. Rengeteg TV antennat szerelt fel.
En is Moldvaba kisertem el s talalkoztam "az embereivel", akik gondjat
viselik
a kulturalis tulelesnek. Szent munka, valoban. Halas vagyok az Istennek, hogy
reszese lehetek, ha igen csekely mertekben is.
Halasan koszonom, hogy bizalmaba fogadott s segitett segiteni. S koszonjuk,
hogy az amerikai s a vilag magyarsaga elere allott, tuzoszlopkent. Kovetjuk!
Szerencses utat es sok sikert kivanok, nagy szeretettel,
Gellerd Judit
______________________________________________________________________________
_
To: George Williams
From:  on Mon, Feb 3, 1997 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: To Judit Gellerd

Kedves Judit,

Koszonom cimet, feladtam par kis csekkecsket.

Ide mellekelek par cimet, melyekre elkuldhetne korabbi tajekoztato levelet,
hatha hoz tovabbi tamogatast:,
,
,
,





Holnap reggel indulok egy 2 hetes utra.

Mellekelem a magam moldvai elmenyeimet. Megfigyelesem az, hogy ok meg a
gyimesi csangoknal is elesettebbek, s remelem Atzel Bandi veluk is torodik,
mert ok is MEG AKARNAK MARADNI, s nekik meg nehezebb.

Kezcsokkal es nagyon oszinte tisztelettel: Liptak Bela

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Dear Colleagues,

I visited the Association of the Moldavian Csango Hungarians (Moldovai Csango
Magyarok Szervezete - MCSMSZ). This organization is a member of RMDSZ, and
participated in the recent election by entering two senatorial races. Their
senatorial candidates (Istok Gyorgy of Cleja and Eros Jozsef of Pusztina)
were expected to receive about 10,000 votes from the 2-300,000 descendents of
the Hungarians who entered the region in the 14-15th Centuries. This is the
very first attempt of MCSMSZ to participate in any election and the majority
of the Hungarian csangos is still afraid to support them.
          I asked them: How could we help? Here is a list of the answers I
received. I would like to ask all of you to help. In addition to your
personal efforts, you should try to distibute this list among your
acquitances and particularly among piests, bishops and other leaders of the
Roman Catholic Church, of which the csangos are devout members.

1) They, being very poor, often illiterate farmers, they are in need of all
types of simple farm implements. They particularly mentioned good quality
scythes and scythe-stones, which some Hungarian group from Sweden, sent to
the Gyimes (Szekely) csangos, but not to them. (They work minute parcels of
land by hand.)

2) The csango survival requires self-respect (they have been looked down at
by both Szekelys anf Romanians) and self-respect comes partially from
material improvement. Therefore, the MCSMSZ wants to start a brick-making and
a tile-production facility. They need books and instructions on how to do
that. If you have such (Hungarian language) booklets, please mail them to the
addresses at the end of this letter.

3) Their ultimate dream is to produce wood boards and planks in a community
owned lumber yard. If anybody could provide them with a pit-saw, that, for
them, would be a dream come true.

4) In Cleja there are 850 houses and only 11 TV disk antennas. An antenna is
1,500,000 ley ($450). Duna TV is their only link to Hungarian culture. It is
a powerful influence of supporting and reenforcing their identity and
self-respect. If you or your group can collect this sum, MCSMSZ will make
sure that the antenna will be put to collective use.

5) We should try to influence the programming of Duna TV, so that they would
also air programs using the archaic Hungarian language of the csangos. The
csangos should be proud of their 500 year old, unique language and of their
superhuman achievement in making it survive. I talked with people at Duna TV
about this, and if you agree that such a program is desirable, you might want
to write to them (elnok: Sara Sandor, 1016 Bp. Meszaros u. 48, fax:
011-361-156-9246). Tougether, I am sure, that we will succeed in getting a
csango-language program started, and I know that such a program will be
enjoyable to ALL viewers of Danube TV.

6) They also asked for a HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE copy of the Hungarian-Romanian
Basic Treaty. (Also of the 1201 recommendation of EC). If you have one,
please send it to the address given at the end of this letter. They would
also like to have guidance on "what rights do these agreements give the
csangos?"

7) They were very disappointed that presidential candidate Frunda (and others
such as Bishop Tokes) did not visit them. They feel that the RMDSZ is not
taking them seriously neither as a surce of support, nor as a responsibility.
We should use our contacts at RMDSZ to change that.

8) The MCSMSZ does not even have a typewriter, not to mention stationary,
copier or word processor. They need such equipment and they need the
knowledge to use them. They also need books to start a library. (66 pounds of
books can be sent for $47 from the USA from any Post Office in an M-bag.) If
you can help with any of these, please mail to the address below.

9) I have already written about their request for csango language masses in
their own villages. You can help by writing letters to:
Episcop Petru Gergel, Episcopia Romano-Catolica, Iasi, Code:6600, Romania
with copies to:
The Honorable Archbishop  Joan Robu, 70749 Bucuresti, Str. Nuferiol 19.,
Romania
 Tel: 40-1-614-55-31, 40-1-613-39-36,  Fax: 40-1-312-12-07 
The Honorable Paskai Laszlo, Hercegprimas, Esztergom, Hungary
His Holiness, Pope John Paul, Vatican City, Rome, Italy

10) Today there are only Romanian language schools and Romanian language
masses in the area (Yesterday, I dealt with the role of the Roman Catholic
Church and our efforts in that connection.) In connection with csango
schools, the most important need is for csango speaking teachers. To date,
the whole educational effort has failed for the following reasons:
           a) The teacher's certificates issued in Hungary are not accepted
in Moldavia.
            b) Of the 102 csango students, who graduated from the
Transylvanian  highschool classes for csangos, NONE has returned to Moldavia.
            c) These students were educated in modern Hungarian, which is not
understandable in the region. What is worst: they received the impression,
that their language is inferior and they themselves are not as good as
anybody else.
            For the above reasons, it seems to me that the whole issue of
csango education should be redirected from the goal of removing and "saving"
csango individuals from Moldavia, while giving up on the masses, to assisting
in the production of dedicated and self-respecting csango teachers. This will
only happen if RMDSZ, the Hungarian government, the Catholic Church,
international linguist organisations and all others who care, join tougether.
The first step towards that goal could be an international conference held in
Bacau (Bako), supported by the United Nations, the Soros Foundation, the
Catholic Church and others. As the csango senatorial candidate said: "This is
what we need! All of you should promise to light a match every day and while
it is burning, think about, how this could be achieved?" Let us do more than
think! Let us act!    

If you can help with any of the above ten(10) problem areas or if you can
provide financial help (International Money Order), please send it to the
addresses below. If you do send help, please let Peter Orban know, because
the Hungarian Lobby would like to keep a running account to recognise those
who help the MCSMSZ. (While the Szekely csangos of Gyimes did receive some
help from the West, when I made a $100 contribution to MCSMSZ, they told me,
that it was the very first assistance they have EVER received.) Help for the
MCSMSZ can be sent to their senatorial candidate:

Istok Gyorgy
Com: Cleja  Code: 5529
Jud: Bacau
Romania

Help for the Gyimes csangos can be sent to:

Deaky Andras, Director
Scoala Generala Ghimes
5494 Ghimes-Faget
Jud. Bacau
Romania
(Telephone in the school: 14, at home: 21)

Best regards: Bela Liptak

At 05:18 PM 2/18/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>Well, well, I have to disappoint you Eva. We have never had an exchange
>about the size of the Hungarian left. We was talking about the popularity
>of NATO (and joining it) in Hungary. You pointed out that the main opposition
>comes from the extrem left (Munkaspart) and extrem/populist right (FKGP,
>MIEP). Furthermore you tried to explain the public opinion in Hungary
>based on this, i.e 20% right-winger and 20% left-winger (if I am right
>you used this expression which means 'szelsobaloldali' to me) make up
>the total 40-45% opposition. Now, I still doubt that there would be 20%
>'szelsobal' in Hungary.

        Janos, I don't think that you remember correctly. But I will try to
look it up for you. It simply doesn't ring the bell for me and I have pretty
good memory.

>Eva, you don't need to read papers and guess that the MSZP has 25% popularity.
>Why do you think they won the last election?

        All right, let me try again. I think that the hard-core voters of
the MSZP are much further to the left than the current leadership. The
current leadership, if it had absolutely free choice, would most likely
follow a far more leftist path. But it doesn't have much choice because of
economic necessities which they, being in the government, see only too well.
And of course the party leadership is not homogeneous. There is the
Baloldali Tomorules (the leftist cluster) which practically
indistinguishable from the Munkaspart. There is a good possibility that the
group of voters who voted for the MSZP because they were hoping to return to
the "good old days of the Kadar regime" will actually vote for the
Munkaspart at the next elections. That's why I think that the Munkaspart
might get more than five percent of the votes in 1998.

        As for the voters who voted for the MSZP in 1994: many, many of them
are not hard-core voters. They voted for the MDF in 1990 and were
disillusioned. In 1994 they returned to the MSZP and most likely they are
disillusioned again. The question is where they are going to turn: maybe to
Torgyan.

        Eva Balogh

At 05:01 PM 2/19/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Andy Kozma writes:
>
>>A HUNGARY listan, a Balogh es
>>magyar gyulolo cinkosai alig varjak, hogy hazankat nepunket fasisztanak es
>>antiszemitistanak mazoljak.  Azon a listan van egy Kozma nevu zsido aki
>>tenyleg utalja es szapulja a hazankat es nepunket.  Ne a vallast hanem az
>>embert nezzetek.
>>Well I have this question?Do I have the right to copy this statement about
>>myself?
>>I would appreciate Jeliko,you oppinion about this.
>>On the other hand I wonder how come this deranged Lippai is allowed to
>>slander somebody,whom he never met,or talked to.
>>Truthfully,at the first reading I got hot under my collar,but after,I jus
>>realised,if I hate hungary and hungarians,this would be an excellent reason.
>>I have more than this,but I still can not hate all the poeple,neither in
>>Hungary,nor anywhere else.
>>What they did to myself and my family was not a glorious.
>>I have my oppinion,and that is realy not very flatering,about those times in
>>Hungary.
>>Andy.
>>
>
>You have a right to copy anything you like Andy. My wonderment is the desire
>to participate in lists (there is no indication where the message
>originated) where this type of discussion is going on. If it was a list in
>which I have participated, I would fight my battles about it on that list.
>But if your reposting here was to indicate
>the manner of discussion on another list, I am glad that I am not
>participating in it.
>I am not participating in Szabad,formerly Forum.I am reading it to find out
realy what is new in Hungary,and also what people are talking about.
I am positive,I won't get involved with this idiot,I will not give him any
excuse or
opportunity to further his byle writing.
I feel very good about myself,and don't give a dam about what his oppininon
is about myself.
The reason I copyd this,so the participant of this list should know what is
written.
Andy.

>In the past, I have also received personal hate letters from some Romanian
>and Slovak
>list participants when I have posted historical items that they have
>(apparently violently) disagreed with. I do not draw the conclusion from
>those hate letters that all Romanians or all Slovaks (or for that matter any
>significant majority in those countries) hate me or hate Hungarians or
>Hungary in general.
>
>The postings are made by individuals, and generalization in any direction
>can not be justified. One can always draw extensive conclusions about the
>individual who posts just by the style and the language used (and I do not
>mean grammatical or spelling correctness), completly aside from the text
itself.
>
>As the saying goes: If one wrestles with pigs he will get filthy and the
>pigs enjoy it"
>
>Regards,Jeliko
>
>

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:    (Barbara Wampole)
Reply-to:       
To:     
Date: 97-02-04 22:37:08 EST

My friend in the San Francisco sent me your message. I am vice chairman
of the Friends of the Santa Clara River. We are a non-profit group which
formed in 1993 as a coalition of environmental groups to participate on
the steering committee of the Santa Clara River Enhancement and
Management Plan. This is a very difficult process and we are struggling
to resolve differences between the competing interest on the river.
I can only imagine the horror you live with in seeing the impacts on the
Danube.
We will spread the word about your needs as quickly as we can to as many
people as we can think of. Among our related organizations the Sierra
Club of both Los Angeles and VenturaCounty, Audubon of Ventura County
and several others. We may duplicate their efforts.But we have a home
page and it is linked to the State of California Rivers Assessment
project. They are tied to universities and I will try to send it along
to them.
Our home page is http://envirolink.org/FSCR.
We are committed to preserving the resources of the last major natural
river in southern California and are currently overwhelmed by responding
to the Los Angeles County Planners release of a plan by a developer who
wants to situate a residential (urban sprawl) development of 70,000
people directly around the river. We would prefer to devote our energy
to inspiring people to appreciate and respect the river. Chances are we
will end up supporting litigation.

Our best wishes in your struggle. We will be listening for news.Please
feel free to email us to keep us updated.

Barbara Wampole
--
Barbara Wampole
28006 San Martinez Grande Road
Saugus, CA 91384-2306
805-257-3036 voice
805-294-9290 fax


http://www.ikon.com
http://envirolink.org/FSCR

In a message dated 97-02-09 18:27:12 EST,
 (George Williams) writes:

>Date:  97-02-09 18:27:12 EST
>From:   (George Williams)
>To:    
>
>Kedves jo Bela,
>Halasan koszonom "a csekkecskeket" - nem is olyan kicsiny osszeg. Nagyon
>halas
>vagyok! Mar ezt is utjara bocsajtottam. Koszonom szepen rendkivul ertekes
>csango beszamolojat. Elkuldtem Atzel Bandinak. Atzel szinte kizarolag a
>moldvai csangokkal torodik, a gyimesieket nelkule is megvannak. Minden
>munkaja
>az eldugott moldvaia falukra osszpontosul. Rengeteg TV antennat szerelt fel.
>En is Moldvaba kisertem el s talalkoztam "az embereivel", akik gondjat
>viselik
>a kulturalis tulelesnek. Szent munka, valoban. Halas vagyok az Istennek,
hogy
>reszese lehetek, ha igen csekely mertekben is.
>Halasan koszonom, hogy bizalmaba fogadott s segitett segiteni. S koszonjuk,
>hogy az amerikai s a vilag magyarsaga elere allott, tuzoszlopkent. Kovetjuk!
>Szerencses utat es sok sikert kivanok, nagy szeretettel,
>Gellerd Judit
>____________________________________


---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:    (George Williams)
To:     
Date: 97-02-09 18:27:12 EST

Kedves jo Bela,
Halasan koszonom "a csekkecskeket" - nem is olyan kicsiny osszeg. Nagyon
halas
vagyok! Mar ezt is utjara bocsajtottam. Koszonom szepen rendkivul ertekes
csango beszamolojat. Elkuldtem Atzel Bandinak. Atzel szinte kizarolag a
moldvai csangokkal torodik, a gyimesieket nelkule is megvannak. Minden
munkaja
az eldugott moldvaia falukra osszpontosul. Rengeteg TV antennat szerelt fel.
En is Moldvaba kisertem el s talalkoztam "az embereivel", akik gondjat
viselik
a kulturalis tulelesnek. Szent munka, valoban. Halas vagyok az Istennek, hogy
reszese lehetek, ha igen csekely mertekben is.
Halasan koszonom, hogy bizalmaba fogadott s segitett segiteni. S koszonjuk,
hogy az amerikai s a vilag magyarsaga elere allott, tuzoszlopkent. Kovetjuk!
Szerencses utat es sok sikert kivanok, nagy szeretettel,
Gellerd Judit
______________________________________________________________________________
_
To: George Williams
From:  on Mon, Feb 3, 1997 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: To Judit Gellerd

Kedves Judit,

Koszonom cimet, feladtam par kis csekkecsket.

Ide mellekelek par cimet, melyekre elkuldhetne korabbi tajekoztato levelet,
hatha hoz tovabbi tamogatast:,
,
,
,





Holnap reggel indulok egy 2 hetes utra.

Mellekelem a magam moldvai elmenyeimet. Megfigyelesem az, hogy ok meg a
gyimesi csangoknal is elesettebbek, s remelem Atzel Bandi veluk is torodik,
mert ok is MEG AKARNAK MARADNI, s nekik meg nehezebb.

Kezcsokkal es nagyon oszinte tisztelettel: Liptak Bela

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Dear Colleagues,

I visited the Association of the Moldavian Csango Hungarians (Moldovai Csango
Magyarok Szervezete - MCSMSZ). This organization is a member of RMDSZ, and
participated in the recent election by entering two senatorial races. Their
senatorial candidates (Istok Gyorgy of Cleja and Eros Jozsef of Pusztina)
were expected to receive about 10,000 votes from the 2-300,000 descendents of
the Hungarians who entered the region in the 14-15th Centuries. This is the
very first attempt of MCSMSZ to participate in any election and the majority
of the Hungarian csangos is still afraid to support them.
          I asked them: How could we help? Here is a list of the answers I
received. I would like to ask all of you to help. In addition to your
personal efforts, you should try to distibute this list among your
acquitances and particularly among piests, bishops and other leaders of the
Roman Catholic Church, of which the csangos are devout members.

1) They, being very poor, often illiterate farmers, they are in need of all
types of simple farm implements. They particularly mentioned good quality
scythes and scythe-stones, which some Hungarian group from Sweden, sent to
the Gyimes (Szekely) csangos, but not to them. (They work minute parcels of
land by hand.)

2) The csango survival requires self-respect (they have been looked down at
by both Szekelys anf Romanians) and self-respect comes partially from
material improvement. Therefore, the MCSMSZ wants to start a brick-making and
a tile-production facility. They need books and instructions on how to do
that. If you have such (Hungarian language) booklets, please mail them to the
addresses at the end of this letter.

3) Their ultimate dream is to produce wood boards and planks in a community
owned lumber yard. If anybody could provide them with a pit-saw, that, for
them, would be a dream come true.

4) In Cleja there are 850 houses and only 11 TV disk antennas. An antenna is
1,500,000 ley ($450). Duna TV is their only link to Hungarian culture. It is
a powerful influence of supporting and reenforcing their identity and
self-respect. If you or your group can collect this sum, MCSMSZ will make
sure that the antenna will be put to collective use.

5) We should try to influence the programming of Duna TV, so that they would
also air programs using the archaic Hungarian language of the csangos. The
csangos should be proud of their 500 year old, unique language and of their
superhuman achievement in making it survive. I talked with people at Duna TV
about this, and if you agree that such a program is desirable, you might want
to write to them (elnok: Sara Sandor, 1016 Bp. Meszaros u. 48, fax:
011-361-156-9246). Tougether, I am sure, that we will succeed in getting a
csango-language program started, and I know that such a program will be
enjoyable to ALL viewers of Danube TV.

6) They also asked for a HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE copy of the Hungarian-Romanian
Basic Treaty. (Also of the 1201 recommendation of EC). If you have one,
please send it to the address given at the end of this letter. They would
also like to have guidance on "what rights do these agreements give the
csangos?"

7) They were very disappointed that presidential candidate Frunda (and others
such as Bishop Tokes) did not visit them. They feel that the RMDSZ is not
taking them seriously neither as a surce of support, nor as a responsibility.
We should use our contacts at RMDSZ to change that.

8) The MCSMSZ does not even have a typewriter, not to mention stationary,
copier or word processor. They need such equipment and they need the
knowledge to use them. They also need books to start a library. (66 pounds of
books can be sent for $47 from the USA from any Post Office in an M-bag.) If
you can help with any of these, please mail to the address below.

9) I have already written about their request for csango language masses in
their own villages. You can help by writing letters to:
Episcop Petru Gergel, Episcopia Romano-Catolica, Iasi, Code:6600, Romania
with copies to:
The Honorable Archbishop  Joan Robu, 70749 Bucuresti, Str. Nuferiol 19.,
Romania
 Tel: 40-1-614-55-31, 40-1-613-39-36,  Fax: 40-1-312-12-07
The Honorable Paskai Laszlo, Hercegprimas, Esztergom, Hungary
His Holiness, Pope John Paul, Vatican City, Rome, Italy

10) Today there are only Romanian language schools and Romanian language
masses in the area (Yesterday, I dealt with the role of the Roman Catholic
Church and our efforts in that connection.) In connection with csango
schools, the most important need is for csango speaking teachers. To date,
the whole educational effort has failed for the following reasons:
           a) The teacher's certificates issued in Hungary are not accepted
in Moldavia.
            b) Of the 102 csango students, who graduated from the
Transylvanian  highschool classes for csangos, NONE has returned to Moldavia.
            c) These students were educated in modern Hungarian, which is not
understandable in the region. What is worst: they received the impression,
that their language is inferior and they themselves are not as good as
anybody else.
            For the above reasons, it seems to me that the whole issue of
csango education should be redirected from the goal of removing and "saving"
csango individuals from Moldavia, while giving up on the masses, to assisting
in the production of dedicated and self-respecting csango teachers. This will
only happen if RMDSZ, the Hungarian government, the Catholic Church,
international linguist organisations and all others who care, join tougether.
The first step towards that goal could be an international conference held in
Bacau (Bako), supported by the United Nations, the Soros Foundation, the
Catholic Church and others. As the csango senatorial candidate said: "This is
what we need! All of you should promise to light a match every day and while
it is burning, think about, how this could be achieved?" Let us do more than
think! Let us act!

If you can help with any of the above ten(10) problem areas or if you can
provide financial help (International Money Order), please send it to the
addresses below. If you do send help, please let Peter Orban know, because
the Hungarian Lobby would like to keep a running account to recognise those
who help the MCSMSZ. (While the Szekely csangos of Gyimes did receive some
help from the West, when I made a $100 contribution to MCSMSZ, they told me,
that it was the very first assistance they have EVER received.) Help for the
MCSMSZ can be sent to their senatorial candidate:

Istok Gyorgy
Com: Cleja  Code: 5529
Jud: Bacau
Romania

Help for the Gyimes csangos can be sent to:

Deaky Andras, Director
Scoala Generala Ghimes
5494 Ghimes-Faget
Jud. Bacau
Romania
(Telephone in the school: 14, at home: 21)

Best regards: Bela Liptak

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:   
To:     , 
Date: 97-02-04 13:09:23 EST

Dear Mr. Szabo and Liptak,

Thank you both for the info you send.
I'm only an intermediairy in this matter, I really can not make time
for (another) volunteer job... I'm building an office at the moment
for NGO access to the Internet (E-mail, newsgroups, website) and
after that I'll have to start a new web site on sustainable
development.
You and/or the students are welcome here to use this facility when
you stay in The Hague.

This is what I did:

- I contacted 'Milieucontact Oost-Europa', a specialised NGO in
  Amsterdam and forwarded your info. They might pick up the
  coordination on the students accomodation. If so, you will
  hear from them directly.
- There will be a small article in the The Hague Environmental Agenda
- I found out the hotel 'Seabreeze' in The Hague (Scheveningen, at
  the coast) is a cheap place, where many students come.
  Phone: +31-703524145 fax: +31-703514830.
- Two other NGO's have to call me back.

If you like, we could do a 'special' on the dDH web site
(www.ddh.nl), informing about the case and linking to the web site
about the dam.

All the best,
Boyd Noorda



> Datum verzending: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:09:29 +0000 (GMT)
> Van:              "M. Szabo" >
> Aan:              
> Onderwerp:        Re: Help law-students to hear the first environmental
lawsu

> Dear Boyd Noorda,
>
> I was really pleased that you kindly offered your help. I have been
> examining the decisions of International Court of Justice, and I am quite
> convinced that the Court's decisions are basically motivated by political
> considerations. The attention of the public opinion of the involved
> countries are always taken into consideration. There is a certain level of
> additional risk in the present case: many judges are coming from
> developing countries, in which victory-over-the-nature type huge projects
> are still sometimes regarded as favourable things. This is the reason
> why I try to organise that 30 lawstudents could attend at the lawsuit,
> expressing a clear interest in an environmentally sound settlement.
>
> So far the students got minimal financial support, and we would very
> warmly wellcome your help in this regard. But I have to add, that also  I
> met with another problem. It is extremly difficult to organise a cheap
> accomodation in The Hague from abroad. Therefore I would like to request
> you to help me to find the cheapest possible accommodation in The Hague.
> The students will arrive on the 2nd March and they will leave The Hague on
> the 15th March 1997.
>
> I would like to strengthen again how much I do appreciate your help.
>
> With best wishes:
>
>                 Marcel Szabo
>
>
=== Hope on the Balkans/Protests in Serbia:  http://www.ddh.nl/fy ===
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|             Socia Media: working for sustainable media            |
|        P.O. box 13510, 2501 EM  The Hague, The Netherlands        |
| E-mail:   Voice: +31-703654124 (fax on request) |
|         World Wide Web: http://www.sociamedia.nl/home.html        |
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