Roman Kanala wrote:
> 
> Some information that might be of interest to whom it may concern:
> 
> The new Chair of the Board of Governors at the University of Carleton
> is Dr. Ivan Fellegi.
> 
> For more information, see the page at URL
> 
> http://www.carleton.ca/cu/twac/fe1/s9.html
> Interview: Meet Dr. Ivan Fellegi, Chair of the Board
> 
> For the administrative organisation at the Carleton University
> (may be out of date), see:
> 
> gopher://ernest.carleton.ca:406/11/root-all/general/adoffices
> 
> Also on the Carleton University gopher:
> 
> Officers of Instruction, as of July 1, l996
> 
> Out of 19 Professors and Associate Professors at the School of
> Journalism and Communication, Carleton University, there is only one
> with a BA degree (same level as Ms. Szurek's) and it is - Mr. George
> Frajkor.  The rest have of course Masters and Doctorates.
> 
> Mr. Frajkor is signing his message with a baroque signature that states
> he is at School af Journalism, that lead several contributors to express
> their astonishment about his journalist qualities. In fact, this .sig
> information is not correct. The correct name of the organisational unit
> is "School of Journalism and Communication".
> 
> Moreover, Mr. Frajkor is not a journalist, but according to the gopher
> information, he is specialised in "Animation and electronic techniques
> in television".
> 
> Perhaps the explanation why he is displaying such a level of ignorance
> of the basic rules of scholar work (yes, FACTS !) and astonishing lack
> of just plain scientific ethics.
> 
> Mr. Frajkor is using the computer equipment of the University.
> 
> Mr. Frajkor has been caught deliberately spreading false informations
> about listmembers (see a few recent articles in Slovak-L). Mr. Frajkor
> is running a fascist mailing list. Mr. Frajkor is tolerating, approving
> or even actively participating in deeds like defamation, expressions of
> racial and national hate, calls for intolerance. For more details, look
> in Slovak-L.
> 
> Regarding the the policies of computer use at Carleton, Cf.  URL
> gopher://ernest.carleton.ca:406/00/root-all/uni-policies/
> Policies_regarding_Computers/onet
> 
> > Uses that fall under one of the following descriptions are, in
> > general, not acceptable.
> >
> > ( ... )
> >
> > 3.  Uses that are considered by the ONet Management Committee to be
> > malicious or unethical.
> >
> > 4.  Uses that violate federal or provincial laws.
> 
> Just thought this information might be of interest to the Internet
> community.
> 
> Roman Kanala

I am a sometime surveyor of this list and am astounded at the increasing 
level of animosity from Mr. Kanala towards Mr. Frajkor.  This last post 
amounts to a personal attack, has crossed a line of decency.  It does 
not have any relevance to the spirit of this list, and Mr. Kanala, you 
seem amazingly unconcerned about this fact.  

If the idea of picking apart Mr. Frajkor's credentials was to convince 
others that your arguments about Slovak history are more sound, it is 
nothing but an ad hominum attack anyway.  True scholars would laugh at 
you.

Perhaps, Mr. Kanala, you would be happier if you took a break from all 
this talk, made yourself a tea, and watched some TV or listened to some 
nice music.  Too much bile is bad for a person's health.

Peter Knazko
Kanata, Ontario

In article >,  > wrote:
| T. Kocsis  > wrote:

| 
| Of course!  That's what it would amount to, a gesture to the former
| refugees, a symbolic hand shake, projecting the message that says: "You
| are part of us."  Instead what we get is the kind of jelous sophistry
| we've seen here from Szucs and his clones.

1) Interesting. Many of your arguments point to the fact that
you would think that effects would be beyond what could
result from a symbolic handshake. 

2) I have  no clones. Do you?

3) What am I supposed to be jealous of you? 

| 
| I keep asking why is it that only Hungarians act this way?  Why is the
| relationship among Hungarians so much different than among Poles or
| Romanians, for instance?  But I don't get the answers. 

I don't know, but I think the question is
irrelevant. Regardless of what our Romanian neighbors, or
the POles are doing we should determine our policy based on
what makes sense for us. 

| I suspect though, that eventual full European Union membership will
| force the government to change this law because it's not in harmony with
| the rest of the EU.

We shall see.

Istvan

It's now for the third time that Mr. Frajkor has innocently asked 
for concrete examples of racist hate messages on "his" list. 

This one has been written more than a week ago. There were indignated
replies, no reaction from Mr. Frajkor, listowner. A gentleman who 
protested got an extremely vulgar response from the Bachelor Szurek,
scholar character as if coming from a midnight lady on the pavement. 

Mr. Frajkor, listowner, did not react to the first message, despite 
the hate character and clear anti-semite connotation. 

However, Mr. Frajkor has once again publicly appreciated Ms. Szurek's 
performance and her efficiency in fighting the enemy, all decency aside.
This is a standard feature in accross the Mr. Frajkor's listowner record
and more about this topic will be brought to Slovak-L list. 

Mr. Frajkor is running a racist and national hate spreading mailing list
using the listserver at the Buffalo University, NY. He is contributing 
using the computer equipment of the Carleton University and putting the 
University name into the signature, giving to his contributions an official 
character. 

Are the expressions of anti-semitism, extreme nationalism and hatred 
really the official policy at the Carleton University ?

Roman Kanala

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:      mR. A Albu - SMRDIS CESNAKOM ! 
Date:         Sat, 24 Aug 1996 14:03:49 -0700 
From:         
Organization: http://www.vir.com/~henry/ 
Newsgroups:   bit.listserv.slovak-l


Mr A Albu, len pre Vasu informaciu neviem preco tu znecistujete ovzdusie
vasimi proti Slovenskymi recami. Ked sa Vam nasa spolocnost nepaci mate
otvorene dvere do vsetkych vasim podobnim NewsGroups na Internete. Ja
nechodim citat odkazy do NewsGroups s ktorymi nesuhlasim, robia to len
kreteni !

Bye Henry
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
As a public service, the translation (grammar errors included):


Subject: mR. A Albu - YOU ARE STINKING OF GARLIC !
Date:         Sat, 24 Aug 1996 14:03:49 -0700 
From:         
Newsgroups:   bit.listserv.slovak-l

Mr. A Albu, for your information only I don't know why do you
pollute the athmosphere with your anti Slovak talkings. If our 
company does not please you, you have the door open to all NewsGroups
on the Internet that are similar to you. I don't go to read messages
to NewsGroups with which I do not agree, only cretens do !

Bye Henry.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:      Re: mR. A Albu - SMRDIS CESNAKOM ! 
Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:54:05 GMT 
From:         Kristina Szurek >
Reply-To:     
Organization: York University 
Newsgroups:   bit.listserv.slovak-l

Martin Lewinski ) wrote:
: > Mr A Albu, len pre Vasu informaciu neviem preco tu znecistujete ovzdusie
: > vasimi proti Slovenskymi recami. Ked sa Vam nasa spolocnost nepaci mate
: > otvorene dvere do vsetkych vasim podobnim NewsGroups na Internete. Ja
: > nechodim citat odkazy do NewsGroups s ktorymi nesuhlasim, robia to len
: > kreteni !
: >
:   Nastartujte si tu vasu virtualnu karu a vyrazte do sveta!Prizvite
:   na vylet aj panov Gazdika a Frajkora, na kolienkach Vam moze
:   usadnut napr.Kristinka Szurek a cestou sa rozmyslavo pozerajte navokol.
:   Azda zistite, ze propagacia fasizmu je trestna, to viete tento
:   mierumilovny svet, vsakze ?
:
Drahy pan Kokot Lewinski je mi luto ze nevies citat po Slovensky, ale
Mr. Alban, ktory smrdi cesnakom, bol ten ktory propagoval nenavist
a superioritu voci jednotlivcom a narodom, co je tak isto trestne.  Neviem
odkial mas tie reci o fasizme, ale uz si pomaly zvykam na vsetky tie
blbosti co sa rodia v tvojej gebuli.  Lepsie by si stravil cas keby si
sa dal na kolienka a odprosil Slovensky narod za odpustenie.

[Sorry to those that have to read this, I usually try to post productive
postings, but Mr. Lewinski is communicating through insults on the 'Net.
His intelligence is preventing him from understanding any other
form of discussion.]
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

(parts of human anatomy in the salutation ...)

.... Mr. Alban, who stinks the garlic...

.... I am slowly getting used to all the non-sense born in your damnhead...


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:    Re: Isn't she lovely... ? 
Date:       Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:24:28 EDT 
From:       George Frajkor >
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l


Ross Hedvicek writes:

 re: Szurek

> Isn't she a lovely loser?
> Rosta

       She is indeed a lovely. And so far she's winning.


    Jan George Frajkor                      _!_
 School of Journalism, Carleton Univ.      --!--
 1125 Colonel By Drive                       |
 Ottawa, Ontario                            /^\
 Canada K1S 5B6                         /^\     /^\
       /   
  o: 613 520-7404   fax: 613 520-6690  h: 613 563-4534
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> 
>Dear Ms Szurek 
> 
>Congratulations,  obtaining a BA degree is without doubt an achievment at
>York University.  And 
>I have no doubt that it was a hard work.  When you get out into a real
>world you will most likely 
>find out that the word professional,  in the field of psychology, means
>somebody who has a Master 
> 
> ....... etc.... etc......
> 
>Paul Zapletal 
>

Pan Doktor Zapletal,

Are you sure degrees are necessary to have the right to speak and to be trusted
 ?
We have here in our government many ministers who did so much studies they are 
so proud of they are unable to do anything. Another prime minister 4 years ago 
only had o-levels, and was much more aware of the needs of ordinary people. 

In general there has been a terrible atmosphere on this newsgroup for a month, 
a place for exchange has turn to a place for fight.
A first thing studies ought to teach is a bit of humility, and I often ask myse
lf why people keep on replying on the same subject which is obviously not going
 to end anywhere. 
If one day all these people fancy meeting at a cafe in Blava to have a real-wor
ld discussion, it will be funny. Tell me, I'll turn up (and listen only, not be
ing qualified to speak, because my PhD is only half-way through.)

Marc .

In article > 
a (Frank Bures) writes:
>From:  (Frank Bures)
>Subject: Re: Mr. Frajkor, listowner of Slovak-L
>Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:57:36 GMT

>In >, (Paul Zapletal
) writes:
>>On Aug 30, 1996 17:42:27 in article <Re: Mr. Frajkor, listowner of
>>Slovak-L>,  (Kristina Szurek)' wrote: 
>> 
>>>:Mr. Kanala 
>> 
>>>Kristina Szurek 
>> 
>>>: First of all, Miss Kristina Szurek is neither a professional nor a :
>>scholar.  
>>> 
>>>Very nice intro :-) your ignorance is aparent from the very first line of
>>your  
>>>posting.  An achievement of a Bachelor degree consists of 4 years of
>>full-time  
>>>studies which in my book is a scholar. I have worked for various agencies 
>>
>>>throughout Toronto before (full time) and during my studies (part-time,  
>>>summers), and am currently self-employed.  You may have doubts about me
>>being a  
>>>professional, but my clients don't. 
>>> 
>> 
>>Dear Ms Szurek 
>> 
>>Congratulations,  obtaining a BA degree is without doubt an achievment at
>>York University.  And 
>>I have no doubt that it was a hard work.  When you get out into a real
>>world you will most likely 
>>find out that the word professional,  in the field of psychology, means
>>somebody who has a Master 
>>degree or a Doctorate.   These people, once they prove that they are
>>competent, are issued 
>>licences that allow them to practice and arrive to conclusions or
>>diagnosis.  To protect the 
>>general public, these licences can be revoked.  In the real world you will
>>also find out that the 
>>word scholar is reserved for professionals who distinguished themselves
>>more than others by 
>>studying a lot, publishing scientific papers, books and who have proven
>>themselves.  This  
>>distinction is given to them by their peers in the field. 
>>For all  these reasons I think that Mr. Kanala was right in his
>>observations on your use of  
>>words professional and scholar.   In fact, had you been a licenced
>>professional and made 
>>a "professional advice' in a public forum, as you did in your previous
>>post, your carrier  
>>would probably be over.  By no means I am suggesting that you should not
>>take pride in  
>>your important work.  I only sincerely hope that you are taking a totally
>>different approach,  
>>when working with these unfortunate kids, than the one that you exhibit
>>here. 
>> 
>>>: This girl just obtained (June 1996) a Bachelor degree in Child 
>>>: psychology from York University  
>>>I do not know where you get your information from, but the information is 
>>
>>>incorrect. 
>> 
>>Incorrect?   Are you denying the very Bachelor degree that you were so
>>proud  
>>of a minute ago?    Is it not a fact that on June 25, 1996 you have 
>>advertised yourself on usenet in misc. kids and crossposted the message 
>>in numerous related newsgroup fora with the following: " I have just
>>graduated 
>>from York University with the Bachelor degree (BA) in Psychology...". 
>>And you made it known already that you specialize in child behavior. 
>>You seem to be confused now about your credentials. 
>>Maybe you should go back to York University and consult preferably with 
>>some Associate Professor with a BA degree as to what kind of diploma is 
>>really hanging on your wall.   If you decide to go back to school, it will 
>>have some real advantage.  Yes, then you will be able to keep your E-mail  
>>address past the six month period. 
>> 
>>>Sorry, I didn't finish the rest of your posting, it got too boring. Big
>>words,  
>>>no content....it's called BULL SHIT in our university dictionary. 
>> 
>>Ouch!!!   What a finish    You don't mean York University!  But then, you
>>do 
>>not have any other university (using your words) in your book. 
>>Sorry, but you  blew it completely. 

>FYI:

>York University has such a reputation in Canada that the only two 
>schools that are any good do not even have "York University" in 
>their names. They call themselves Osgood Hall (law school) and 
>Schulich School of Business. York University is very close in 
>quality to another Toronto's aberration Ryerson Quasitechnical 
>University, where quite large group of lecturers obtained their PhD's 
>in Hungary in 6 months and for $10,000 fee.

Do not forget that Ryeson PROFESSOR peddling his bony ass as a prostitute - 
what was his name? Hannon?

Rosta





>Frank Bures, Dept. of Chemistry, University of Toronto, ON, M5S 3H6

In article >,  > wrote:
| Johanne L. Tournier  > wrote:
| > I would think that a Hungarian citizen resident
| >abroad would be just as capable of following the events in Hungary and
| >voting knowledgeably for the candidates there. Especially since there are
| >many Hungarians who may be abroad for only a short time. There is absolutely
| >no valid reason for denying such people the right to vote in their own count
ry
| 
| Well, Johanne, you always make a lot of sense to me, and this is no
| exception. 

Of course she makes a lot of sense to you.. she agrees with
you. :)

 
| 
| I think there is more to this denial of voting rights to non-resident
| citizens than what these rationalizations are trying to prove.
| One thing that the Kadar regime was very successful at was a subtle
| brainwashing whose effects are more obvious to those who were not
| subject to it than the subjects themselves.

How about the brainwashing of the American culture? COuld
you say that that is more obvious to those outside of the
American system? BTW I think both of these statements are
true, and that of course the brainwashing of the Kadar
system is probably a lot more harmful then that of American
culture - but I think if one - both issues need to be
considered. 
Like it or not (and probably neither of us do) the Kadar
system is part of the hungarian culture - politically
psychologically etc. It would take a lot of reverse
brainwashing to get rid of it - or TIME. Now putting the
controls in the hands of those brainwashed by american
culture who think often differently then those who vote from
home and who have to live with the decisions is what I
disagree with.

| While I still lived in Hungary (till the late '60s), and during the '80s
| on my frequent visits there, I noticed that a constant theme of stage
| and TV commedies was the ridiculing of Hungarian exiles. 

I've only seen Dollar Papa do that. Could you  mention some
in the recnt past (let's say 20 years) where Hungarian
exiles were ridiculed? (I only know one instance, where not 
exiled Hungarians in general were ridiculed, but one person
- who came to Hungary made up an award named after herself,
and held a nationally televised gala celebrating herself
with the award winners.

 I think these
| commedies successfully planted the idea in the Hungarian subconscious
| that the typical Hungarian emigre is a bungling idiot who, when visting
| back in Hungary, likes to show off and act a knows-it-all.

I didn't have this preconception, although since I came to
the states I have seen more and more of these characters,
acting as a know-it-all, talking in a condescneding tone
about anything in Hungary or from Hungary. SPeaking how
great they are throwing around dogmas of the american
culture, (how graterful I should be for being here, how 
wrong it is to say Szia, or other expressions that are used
in current Hungarian, not the one they knew when they left,
how Hungarians are brainwashed, and how anything happening
in Hungary is inferior to the Great American Democracy.

So the
| exception became the norm by this false portrait of us there.  I noticed
| how this expectation of us often affected the initial relationship
| between me and other people I met there.  Almost always, I had to go
| overboard to deny that preconcieved notion to them.

It must have been hard, since your previous letter once again
outlined that you knw better what is going on  in Hungary
and who should do what then the Hungarians themselves. 
Of course from  here everything *does* look simple, but
wouldn't you say that would qualify you as a know it all? 

| The other factor operating here is an overabundance of Hungarian pride,
| no matter if there is a good reason for it or not.  

Thank God the liberalis in Hungary are abolishing it ;)
wouldn't you agree? :)

This pride
| historically had positive features as well, but when that pride ignores
| reality, it can become dangerous.  Like today, when the country could
| use all the help it can.  Especially from those who have an experience
| in those countries with whom Hungary wants to close the gap. I am almost
| certain, for instance, that in Poland's recent rapid growth, her
| diaspora has a major share.  

Evidence?

But then, Poland's citizenship law is not
| as exclusionary as Hungary's.  Oh, I really shouldn't mention such
| examples, unless I want to tempt the stock answer to that one: "so why
| should Hungary follow Poland's example?"  And so it goes ...

Yeah.. I guess if you could vote... we would have a much
quicked growth in Hungary as well... Could you elaborate
why?

Istvan

Peter Szaszvari > wrote:
>Good bye everybody,
>
>It was nice but useless and life is sooooo short.

And the grape is sour.

Good riddance, Peter!

Joe

Cs rd s, Cleveland's premier Hungarian ethnic dance company, will be
having auditions for it's upcoming season on Saturday, September 14, 1996
at 12 noon.
Auditions will be held at:
AMERICAN BALLROOM CENTRE
5673 RIDGE ROAD
PARMA, OHIO  44129

Dancers should be at least 18 years of age and have prior training in one
or more dance techniques as well as some performance experience.  For more
information contact director Richard Graber at .

Marek Konski wrote:
> 
> Tony wrote:
> > they DID NOT "MAKE SUPERSONIC
> FLIGHT POSSIBLE.
> 
> I'm interested whether you know who did.
> 
> >
> > To paraphrase my hero, Rodney King, "Why Can't We All Just Get Along
> > (and forget ethnocentrism)??"   THAT was the whole point of my posting
> > on Eastern European "fools".
> 
> Why can't you just take care of American ethnocentrism, the Republic of
> Padania (meridionali sono zingari"), or the Basks and Spaniards?
> 
> >To understand one's problem is THE FIRST
> > STEP IN SOLVING IT!
> 
> Sure, sure.
> The best thing is to solve one's own problems.
> 
> >To bring a lasting peace to Eastern Europe, the
> > ethnocentric, nationalistic old men who rant on about the >"superiority"
> 
> Can you give some examples of old men ranting about "superiority"
> ("superiority" not accomplishments of their ethnic groups?
> 
> Haven't you met in America some young men ranting about "superiority" of
> their ethnic group.
> 
> Your posting was an example of ethnocentric racist ranting.
> 
> > of their ethnic groups must learn some decent, human HUMILITY; their
> > countries and peoples are not the centers of the world!
> >
> 
> And which are?
> 
> Marek


Good reply to this guy, Tony, Marek!!!!!

Check out what I posted in response to him - it also may answer your
question about supersonic space flight.

HipCat
-- 
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/

In article >,  > wrote:
>T. Kocsis  > wrote:
>>
>>This, however, did not happened. I conclude from this fact that letting
>>the diaspora vote would not change the result of the ballots, but it
>>would be a nice symbolic measure.
>
>Of course!  That's what it would amount to, a gesture to the former
>refugees, a symbolic hand shake, projecting the message that says: "You
>are part of us."  Instead what we get is the kind of jelous sophistry
>we've seen here from Szucs and his clones.
>
>I keep asking why is it that only Hungarians act this way?  Why is the
>relationship among Hungarians so much different than among Poles or
>Romanians, for instance?  But I don't get the answers. 
>
[stuff deleted]

It isn't only the Hungarians that "act this way"... Just kibbitz on the
soc.culture.czecho-slovak newsgroup for an earful of the relationships or
lack thereof between the emigre Czech community and the current government
and president... 

>Joe

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

In article >,  > wrote:
| Istvan Szucs > wrote:
| >
| >How about the brainwashing of the American culture? COuld
| >you say that that is more obvious to those outside of the
| >American system?
| 
| Now just what would be the manifestations of this American brainwashing?
| What about those of us, who are selective about what is good and what is
| bad about American culture?  I happen to know quite a few of these among
| Hungarians I know here.

I do too. I believe to be one of them, but that is not the
issue here. You adopt a way of thinking based on what
surrounds you here. I could say just as well that I am
pretty selective about what is good and what is bad about
current and past Hungarian culture, and of course I wouldn't
just be argumentative. I feel that I do, yet - as you point
out - one IS influenced by a lot of local influences -
including what is taken for granted, what goals are, etc.
If you stand out from Hungarians at home, that can very well
be the reason. None of us are immune from this and obviously
the longer you are away the more this manifests itself.

| 
| >Like it or not (and probably neither of us do) the Kadar
| >system is part of the hungarian culture - politically
| >psychologically etc. It would take a lot of reverse
| >brainwashing to get rid of it - or TIME. Now putting the
| >controls in the hands of those brainwashed by american
| >culture who think often differently then those who vote from
| >home and who have to live with the decisions is what I
| >disagree with.
| 
| Of course you are taking a false premise again and arguing
with that.

Of course the fact that you declare that premise to be false
is insufficient for it to be false.
| Because 1) you assume giving control to those who were brainwashed in
| the American culture (which is a far cry from suggesting giving all
| Hungarian citizens the right to vote), 2) that we are all brainwashed
| here. 

Giving a right and a way to vote means giving control (not
all control of course but some control). 

| 
| BTW, what is so good now for Hungarians living with their own decision
| in '94 that could be made worse by allowing all citizens
to vote?



| >I've only seen Dollar Papa do that. Could you  mention some
| >in the recnt past (let's say 20 years) where Hungarian
| >exiles were ridiculed?
| 
| One of those silly questions from you again ...  

One of your condescending responses from you again. Great in
establishing trust and asking people to understand that you
are nothing like that know-it-all emigrant stereotype that
you are talking about.

Who the hell can
| remember the titles of all those radio and TV "kabares" and Hofy skits
| after all those years?  It's not the titles, but the
images that stick.

OK.. then I'll open the question to others. Name some... I
claim that there has been no effort in furthering such a
stereotype. Show me that there has been.

| > (I only know one instance, where not 
| >exiled Hungarians in general were ridiculed, but one person
| >- who came to Hungary made up an award named after herself,
| >and held a nationally televised gala celebrating herself
| >with the award winners.
| 
| I think you are referring to Elisabeth Speter, of whom almost nobody
| heard in the diaspora until her memorable appearance on the Hungarian
| scene.  I don't know if she was more ridiculous or all those actors
| making fools of themselves for her money.

Agreed. They did too. But the criticism against her person
was well founded - do you agree?
Aside from her however I know of no public image reflected
by the media that would be in line with what you are
saying. TO see how condescending SOME emigrants can be I had
to come here, but since I am here I've been able to confirm
and reconfirm this very frequently - btw "conservatives" and
"liberals" seem to be alike in this, and I believe aside
from the image america holds of itself (btw one full chapter
of the book of american brainwashing) distance and how from
a distance everything is so simple is responsible for this
phenomenon. 

| >I didn't have this preconception, although since I came to
| >the states I have seen more and more of these characters,
| >acting as a know-it-all, talking in a condescneding tone
| >about anything in Hungary or from Hungary. SPeaking how
| >great they are throwing around dogmas of the american
| >culture, (how graterful I should be for being here, how 
| >wrong it is to say Szia, or other expressions that are used
| >in current Hungarian, not the one they knew when they left,
| >how Hungarians are brainwashed, and how anything happening
| >in Hungary is inferior to the Great American Democracy.
| 
| I think you are referring to recent debates here and are still suffering
| from constipation of all those sour grapes.

I think you are wrong. I am not suffering from constipation
from any sour grapes. I am talking however not only   of
conversations on these forums, but of live conversations I
held  at dinner tables - including ones with relatives. In
fact I have just talked to somone tonight who was talking
about the same attitude coming from her relatives. 
It doesn't really matter though if I were suffering from
"sour grape" syndrome, as long as you are  not denying that 
the statements and attitudes I claim are present and rampant
in fact are, and that they are reflective of a condescending
know-it-allattitude (of which btw many americans are guilty
abroad - as witnessed by numerous tv programs, and a number
of threads on various newsgroups including the one present
about how Europeans, -especially Eastern Europeans -are
stupid.
BTW if I am nt mistaken (and do correct me if I am wrong)
this was one of the complaints you had against Soros and the
influence he claims to want to have. Double standard?


| 
| >It must have been hard, since your previous letter once again
| >outlined that you knw better what is going on  in Hungary
| >and who should do what then the Hungarians themselves. 
| >Of course from  here everything *does* look simple, but
| >wouldn't you say that would qualify you as a know it all? 
| 
| Heck, I didn't even mean myself included among those experts here, so
| I don't know what the hell you're talking about. All I was saying that
| not extending voting rights to non-resident Hungarian citizens is
| insulting to us abroad and is an aberration among
democratic countries.

I don't think the fact that it is insulting would make a
good argument pro or contra. We could talk about whether it
is improper. I think its not for reasons  - among others - I
described above.

| This also shuts of Hungary from a large pool of expertise in the West.
| Expertise that doesn't just want to rape the country economically, but
| genuinely help.

They have lots of opportunity to help. Their help is
welcome. Their vote - as far as I am concerned is not. If
the only way their expertise can be expressed is by allowing
them to vote, first of all their "help" is nearly
insignificant. If they want to influence public opinion at
home, and let their statements be filtered through the
opinion of Hungarians living at home, I think that would be
/ is very beneficial.

| 
| >| The other factor operating here is an overabundance of Hungarian pride,
| >| no matter if there is a good reason for it or not.  
| >
| >Thank God the liberalis in Hungary are abolishing it ;)
| >wouldn't you agree? :)
| 

| >Yeah.. I guess if you could vote... we would have a much
| >quicked growth in Hungary as well... Could you elaborate
| >why?
| 
| Instead of answering your obnoxious question, I suggest you start
| wondering what the heck are you doing in the US if you have such a lousy
| opinion about it? 

I have attended University here and now I am paying back
my loans. After I am finished doing that I am going
back. Scheduled for the second half of 1997. Mark my words.

 After all, you didn't come here as a refugee, but
| left an already free country.  As such, you even less represent the
| Hungarians at home than those of us who were forced out by a
| totalitarian regime.

And it is OK with me that as long as I am here I shouldn't
vote.
BTW the Hungary I lived in is a lot closer to the Hungary
today then the one you lived in, therefore my vote would be
much more in line with vote of Hungarians in Hungary, I am a
lot more "current" then you are, but I
did not say that to qualify my answer to you. I still
understand and accept that I should only vote after I return
to live in Hungary.

In article >,  > wrote:
| Istvan Szucs > wrote:
| >
| >That's actually not true. Seeing something from afar does
| >not allow you to see the complexity of people's feelings,
| >goals and problems. It encourages oversimplistic answers to
| >problems you see from far and from one perspective.
| 
| Yes, I see how Bokros & Co. considered the people's feelings.
| And they sure live there.

That is a false counterexample. I never said that everybody
in Hungary "considers people's feelings". Of course what you
are saying here is an oversimplification much like the one
liners you see on american news programs, where every
discussion of every issue has to fit in 3 minutes (which is
about the attention span of your avg american) and therefore
can get greatly in depth. (Noted exceptions are some PBS
shows and some (though very few) cable programs.

| 
| >5 years. Short? Perhaps. Certainly shorter then the 30 you
| >spent here and away from home that clouds your vision.
| 
| And as we know, the Kadar regime was very good in providing people
| with clear vision.  You are a living proof of that.

That was  a perfectly relevant response. Thanks for your
valuable contribution.
| 
| >Yes Joe rule me! Tell me what I want, and what my goals
| >are. I desperately need your objective advice, and I am
| >speaking of all poor brainwashed Hungarians who cannot think
| >for themselves, and need you as a leader and decision
| >maker. (You are the one who talked about the misconception
| >that Hungarian emigrants have a know it all attitude.. do
| >you still wonder why?)
| 
| Let's file this away as exhibit #2 and label it
"Projection".

Let's file this away as exhibit #3 and label it dodging the
question. Let's ask the question again. Do you feel that
your opinions are not condescending and that your opinions
don't show a know it all attitude?
| 
| >are doing such a great job that we should follow them? Since
| >when do you want us to copy foreign examples without
| >consideration and evidence that it works, and works for us
| >as well?
| 
| Well, does following "the Hungarian way" work? Why are you here then and
| not there?

I am here for college. Let's file this away and label it
dodging the question #n+1. Let's take the second question
and object on basis of relevance, noting that I did not  say
that there is no reason to study in the US, I merely argued
that automatically adapting foreign examples are bad policy.
Let's now go back to the main issue after this forced
diversion and reexamine the positive and negative aspects of
giving voting opportunity (they have the *right*) to all
Hungarian citizens regardless where they live and how
disconnected they are from Hungary today (vs 40 years ago).

| 
| >I don't have that assumption, but if someone at home votes
| >irresponsibly it is them who will directly suffer from their
| >bad choice. That is not true of emigrants.
| 
| Of course your type who lives there can still vote irresponsibly because
| they also don't have to live with the consequences, right?

What type? Blood type? I am currently in the US, so I can't
vote just as you cannot. I have been trying to tell you that
I think those who live with the consequences should be
allowed to vote and those who don't should not. As long as I
am here I can't and I feel that I should not be able to
vote either.


They just
| take their suitcases and go to another country until that gets too hot
| for them.  So what's the difference?

ANd how is any country getting too hot for me and my type?
(Seriously.. can't begin to guess what you mean by
type. Care to elaborate?) 
|  
| >Return home and vote.
| 
| This is getting to be a bit worn advise. 

Worn of course does not affect it's validity.

| >Of course it is control. Why else would you want to vote
| >then to be part of the decision making process. You say that
| >emigrants should have some control (as many as the number of
| >votes they hold). I say they should have none.
| 
| Your opinion is duly noted and filed as exhibit #3 under the Hungarian
| title: Kirekeszto".

Uh.. how did you figure that? Why don't you address what i
said instead of passing around labels? Do you claim that
a) voting would not give control or that b) your reason for
voting would be independent of the fact that voting is
control.
These are the two claims I made.

| >Nope. Time did not show anything of that sort. First of all
| >your ideas are untested,only one half of the test has been
| >conducted, 
| 
| OK, let's just agree than that the evidence is overwhelming that Hungary
| has managed to dig herself into an ever increasing hole with no relief
| in sight.

Let's not. You have yet to proove that there was a viable
alternative that would have presented better results.

  But no need to worry; Szucs & Co. are still selfassured that
| they know better how to dig holes than anybody else.

Uhhh.. you were the one who seem to be self assured and
condescending claiming that you should have the control
whether or not you suffer the consequences. You have yet to
prove that those holes have not been long dug - that there
was a viable alternative, that you know someone who would
havemade the situation better then it is now, and that if
emigrant votes were included that better route would have
been taken.
|  
| >secondly here once again you are oversimplifying
| >the issue which is pretty common for those who look at
| >things from afar.
| 
| The KISS princple has something to be said for it.

oh?
Is that all you can say as a response?
| 
| >No.. what papers are you reading?
| >I can name contrary sources at any time.
| 
| Just comparing the growth rate of neighboring countries
would tell a lot.

Sure.. if you JUST compared the growth rate... but of course
you are not trying to make references from one carefully
selected statistic - would you...  Or are you also a
follower of the school of one quick snappy stat reasoning
that you can see on 3 minture news reports that tell you
what's wrong with the world, and if reporter X would run
that country all problems would suddenly dissolve?


| Then there is this permanent inflation rate ruining any incentives to
| save and invest.  How about the rapid decline in population?
| These are not signs of robust health.

Nope.. but what are you comparing to? I neve said Hungary
had no problems. I said it is not by any stretch of the
imagination rated as a third world country. With Poland and
the Czech republic it is at the front of the EE countries on
most stats.

Istvan

In article >,  says...
> Some information that might be of interest to whom it may concern:
> 
> 
> The new Chair of the Board of Governors at the University of Carleton
> is Dr. Ivan Fellegi.
> 
> For more information, see the page at URL 
> 
> http://www.carleton.ca/cu/twac/fe1/s9.html
> Interview: Meet Dr. Ivan Fellegi, Chair of the Board
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the administrative organisation at the Carleton University
> (may be out of date), see:
> 
> gopher://ernest.carleton.ca:406/11/root-all/general/adoffices
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also on the Carleton University gopher:
> 
> Officers of Instruction, as of July 1, l996
> 
> Out of 19 Professors and Associate Professors at the School of 
> Journalism and Communication, Carleton University, there is only one
> with a BA degree (same level as Ms. Szurek's) and it is - Mr. George
> Frajkor.  The rest have of course Masters and Doctorates.
> 
> Mr. Frajkor is signing his message with a baroque signature that states
> he is at School af Journalism, that lead several contributors to express
> their astonishment about his journalist qualities. In fact, this .sig
> information is not correct. The correct name of the organisational unit
> is "School of Journalism and Communication". 
> 
> Moreover, Mr. Frajkor is not a journalist, but according to the gopher 
> information, he is specialised in "Animation and electronic techniques 
> in television".
> 
> Perhaps the explanation why he is displaying such a level of ignorance
> of the basic rules of scholar work (yes, FACTS !) and astonishing lack 
> of just plain scientific ethics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Frajkor is using the computer equipment of the University.
> 
> Mr. Frajkor has been caught deliberately spreading false informations
> about listmembers (see a few recent articles in Slovak-L). Mr. Frajkor
> is running a fascist mailing list. Mr. Frajkor is tolerating, approving
> or even actively participating in deeds like defamation, expressions of 
> racial and national hate, calls for intolerance. For more details, look
> in Slovak-L.
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding the the policies of computer use at Carleton, Cf.  URL
> gopher://ernest.carleton.ca:406/00/root-all/uni-policies/
> Policies_regarding_Computers/onet
> 
> > Uses that fall under one of the following descriptions are, in
> > general, not acceptable.
> > 
> > ( ... )
> > 
> > 3.  Uses that are considered by the ONet Management Committee to be
> > malicious or unethical.
> > 
> > 4.  Uses that violate federal or provincial laws.
> 
> 
> 
> Just thought this information might be of interest to the Internet 
> community.
> 
> Roman Kanala


Mr. Kanala

are you sure you've never been in Communist party? Maybe Stalin's helper? I 
can not think any other more appropriate place for you. They (communists) 
used same style of arguments in their disputes with public, they 
blacklisted every opponent, they denied freedom of association same way as 
you do in your posting on August 30:


RK:rather a compliment). Frajkor, Pacek, Szurek, Gazdik, Ziska, Kmet... 
RK: ... who are using inuendo and undue association of themselfs with the 
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
RK:whole nation. 

You must know that freedom of association and freedom of speech without any 
fear of harassment are basic human rights. So what are you talking about?

Who are You Mr. Kanala?


Peter Kmet

Istvan Szucs wrote:
> 
> In article >,  > wrote
:
> | Istvan Szucs > wrote:
> | >I have been following this thread with interest. I left Hungary in 1945 
when I was 5 years old and have not had the opportunity to visit yet. I 
have a couple of questions which  I consider need clarification because 
the responses to the thread seem to mix different concepts.
I am hungarian by nationality because I was born in Hungary AND I 
consider myself to be such. I am an australian citizen by naturalisation 
( I swore allegience to the head of state when I was 18 years old). 
Therefore I am entitled to vote in Austraslia as long as I am registered 
as a permanent resident no matter how long I have been out of the 
country. On the basis of my birth I am a citizen of Hungary. This is 
separate from being of hungarian nationality. My question is what are the 
rights and duties of a hungarian citizen even one living outside Hungary. 
INHO one of the rights of citizenship in a general sense is the right to 
vote.
I would be very interested to heare opinions on this matter 
regards
Denes

>   BUDAPEST, Aug 28 (Reuter) - The Hungarian parliament will hold an
>extraordinary session on September 3 to discuss a treaty which Hungary plans t
o
>sign with Romania next month, Zoltan Gal, Chairman of the Parliament said on
>Wednesday.  The accord, which lays new foundations for their relationship, is
>vital for both countries' ambitions to join NATO and the European Union. 

As I kept saying since before the treaty with Slovakia was signed, these
treaties have nothing to offer to Hungary, because there are no
guarantees in them regarding the treatment of Hungarian minorities in
those countries.  Inch by inch, they can take away more and more rights
from Hungarians, and there is little we can do beyond complaining.
Slovaks and Romanians will deny they violated the treaty and the West
will want to plug their ears and blindfold their eyes.  To them we would
only disturb their tea party with our complaints.  On the other hand,
Slovaks and Romanians got a garantee about the borders which, if
violated, sure would arouse the attention of the major powers.
From recent news originating in Slovakia and now even the Ukraine, those
signed treaties did nothing to improve the situation of our kins there.
In fact it is getting worse.

Abandoning fellow Hungarians to their fate to please those powers that
caused that fate in the first place is in my opinion foolish and not
worth to get into NATO in the first round.

Joe Pannon

Tony wrote:
> 
> In > HipCat > writes:
> >
> >Man, it's times like this that I feel embarrased to be an American.
> >What  can we say to a
> >guy like this.  We could try to educate him, but he is so confused
> with
> >so many little
> >broken up pieces of information, I don't think we have that much
> >glue...or time.
> >
> >Well, I have a few points anyway:
> >Those Eastern European "fools" of Hungarian origin founded Intel,
> >erected the Statue of
> >Liberty, developed the Atomic Bomb, fathered the US Aeorospace
> industry
> >and made
> >supersonic space flight possible, developed computer programming and
> >binary code,
> >invented the speaking machine, the cannon, volunteered and died
> fighting
> >in the
> >American revolution as well as the civil war for democracy, organized
> >and commanded
> >the first American Cavalry and died with it, helped organize desert
> >storm, invented
> >holography, fought the Russians in 1956 and were massacred while the
> US
> >watched and
> >did nothing despite pleas for help, received 14 Nobel Prizes, for the
> >first time in history
> >codified freedom of religion (in Torda, Transylvania, 16c) a hundred
> >years before we
> >were still with our pathetic witch hunts in Salem and elsewhere, died
> in
> >the hundreds of
> >thousands while fighting Tatars and Turks to save the rest of Europe,
> >fathered the
> >California wine industry, founded the Paramount Pictures empire, won
> >numerous Oscars,
> >contributed immensely to mathematics, physics, chemistry, music,
> >geography, and almost
> >every other field.  This list can go on and on.
> >
> >And a lot of what we're seeing in Bosnia and elsewhere is partially
> our
> >fault for creating
> >artificial new states like Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, and Romania -
> >with territories that
> >were part of Hungary for 800 to a thousand years.  But guys like you
> >don't know that.
> >Some of these folks have genuine grievances.  But maybe we too should
> >have learned to
> >"get along" with the King and pay our taxes on tea like good British
> >subjects. A lot of
> >Hungarian lives would have been spared. Thank God the French too
> didn't
> >think like you
> >when we needed their help.
> >
> >So next time you use your computer, watch the Space Shuttle, drink
> >Zinfandel wine,
> >admire the US Cavalry, think of the Hungarians that dedicated their
> >lives to their work,
> >and thank them for helping the US.  But you probably won't.  You are
> >just the typical
> >person who appreciates nothing because he grew up with everything and
> >forgets the
> >people who sacrificed for his freedom and wealth.
> >
> >I guess here in America, education has become less important, and
> >produces individuals
> >like you that talk with nothing to say. And these people become
> politcal
> >leaders.  Try to
> >learn something  - do what should be your responsibility in a great
> >democracy - get
> >educated.
> >
> >HipCat
> >
> >P.S. If you want to learn more visit my homepage and others.  You may
> >enjoy the
> >cerebral activity or maybe you've drunk too many brewskies and don't
> >have the brain cells
> >to spare.
> >--
> >Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/
> 
> My dear fellow:
> 
> I was engaged to a Hungarian-American girl; I have travelled
> (extensively in Hungary: Budapest, Kecskemet; Debrecen; Lake Balaton;
> Aggtelek, etc.); I also have a graduate degree from George Mason
> University.   While I have a TREMENDOUS respect for the Hungarians and
> agree that they are probably the most accomplished (and distinct) of
> the Eastern European nations (please reread my comment on Hungary vs.
> Romania), they DID NOT ERECT THE STATUE OF LIBERTY (that was the
> French); they DID NOT FATHER THE U.S. AEROSPACE INDUSTRY (that was
> largely German immigrant scientists); they DID NOT "MAKE SUPERSONIC
> FLIGHT POSSIBLE.   Your rantings are a clear-cut case of ethnocentrism;
> I'll wager that you (coincidentally) just happen to be of Hungarian
> extraction!   It's funny that whatever nationality "we" are, THAT is
> the nationality which has "contributed the most" to science,
> technology, philosophy, the arts, culture and civilization in general.
> How pathetically tribalistic (and dangerous) is this attitude!
> 
> I myself am of Italian and Argentine Spanish descent.   I could speak
> about all the contributions of the Italians, througout history, and it
> would put you into anaphylactic shock:  Da Vinci; Michelangelo;
> Galileo; Colombo ; and in this century, Marconi and Fermi.   I could
> speak of all the great Spaniards (Cervantes, etc.)   But I will refrain
> from such nationalistic tirades.
> 
> To paraphrase my hero, Rodney King, "Why Can't We All Just Get Along
> (and forget ethnocentrism)??"   THAT was the whole point of my posting
> on Eastern European "fools".   To understand one's problem is THE FIRST
> STEP IN SOLVING IT!   To bring a lasting peace to Eastern Europe, the
> ethnocentric, nationalistic old men who rant on about the "superiority"
> of their ethnic groups must learn some decent, human HUMILITY; their
> countries and peoples are not the centers of the world!
> 
> Tony


Tony, Tony!

For a guy with a graduate degree I thought you'd at least visit my site
and check out the Hungarian Nobel Prize Winners page. More surprising
that a guy with a graduate degree could be so un-gentleman-like and
appear so uneducated. But there are many parts to a man's education.
Here's some information:

1.  The Father of US Aerospace is Todor (Theodore) von Karman who was
born in Budapest and emigrated to the US.  He received the first
National Medal of Science from JFK.  There is also a stamp in his honor
issued a few years ago (1992?).  His mathematical breakthroughs as well
as development of the wind tunnel and much more made supersonic space
flight possible.

2.  The French gave us the Statue of Liberty but (I'm sure this may
embarrass you but at least you remembered France) the Americans didn't
want to fork out the dough to put it up.  SO, it laid there for years
until Jospeh Pulitzer (hear of him - Pulitzer Prize?) came up with an
idea to get the money needed.  His idea was to put the name of anyone
giving a substantial donation into his newspaper.  The idea was a
success.  Pulitzer was born in Hungary. And remember I said "erected"
not "gave."  Maybe you need some more English Literature from George
Mason.

3.  The first sustained nuclear fission reaction was achieved by good
friends Enrico Fermi AND Leo Szilard - Yes, Szilard is Hungarian.  When
the press asked Fermi if he believed in extraterrestrials Fermi replied,
"They are already here, they are called Hungarians."  Szilard (and
Wigner and Teller, also Hungarians) is also responsible for the
Manhattan project idea to develop the Atomic Bomb through the petitions
to Roosevelt and Truman.

Well there is much more at my site should you be interested to learn
something.  It is easier to just blurt out "ETHNOCENTRISM!!!!"  Ooooo. 
I NEVER claimed that Hungarians were better that anyone else or
contributed more, just reacting to your ignorance and claim that all
East Europeans are fools.  I even thought of not writing anything at all
because you sounded so silly.  You see the problems in East Central
Europe are quite complex and cannot be put into one category of old men
raving about superiority.  There are problems of oppression, territorial
disputes, massacres, and things you never heard of.  And the US created
part of these problems.  You obvously know nothing about the region
despite your visits there.  I guess growing up here without any teaching
in real world history, your ideas can come from anywhere - probably
Power Rangers.  Or is it Barney?  "Why Can't We All Just Get Along?" 
Rodney King, now there's a role model!  And I am NOT your Fellow.
-- 
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/

In article >,  > wrote:
| Gabor Barsai > wrote:
| >
| >For 1, it's true that the outside voter won't suffer the consequences, but t
his
| >to me implies that the outside voter, according to you, intentionally votes 
for
| >the worst (which may or may not be true). I don't think this is enough reaso
n
| >to deny them the right to vote.
| 
| Well, to make this really stick, they should also force those who voted
| to live with the consequences of their vote and not allowed to leave the
| country.

Of course it doesn't work perfectly, but not allowing those
who don't live in Hungary vote for policy affecting those
who live in Hungary is a reasonable start.


| >For 2, I think this is probably the best criteria to deny expatriates the ri
ght
| >to vote. If you can't make enough time to spend a few days in Hungary, then
| >tough. Your voting rights will be suspended.
| 
| I would go for some kind of citizenship test as a precondition to
| voting.  But then the same test should be applied to the homeless or
| Roma in Hungary as Hungarian citizens abroad. 

If you come up with a good test it may turn out we agree in
princple.
I think not being in Hungary would be one of the questions
for sudden death failure for lack of being directly affected
by consequences of voting. BTW the idea that only
stakeholders should vote IS fairly widely accepted in many
areas of life.
 
| 
| BTW, what's the value of Hungarian citizenship abroad if it doesn't even
| entitle the wearer to exercise the most basic right of citizenship?

Is your right to vote the only value your citizenship has
for you?

Istvan

>Mr. Kanala

>are you sure you've never been in Communist party?

You are pathetic loser! Last week you called me a fascist (or was it 
fascizoid?) (and I am not) and now you call Kanala a communist (and he is 
not)? You are all over the place, do ya? :-)

> Maybe Stalin's helper? I 
>can not think any other more appropriate place for you. They (communists) 
>used same style of arguments in their disputes with public, they 
>blacklisted every opponent, they denied freedom of association same way as 
>you do in your posting on August 30:


>RK:rather a compliment). Frajkor, Pacek, Szurek, Gazdik, Ziska, Kmet... 
>RK: ... who are using inuendo and undue association of themselfs with the 
>                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>RK:whole nation. 

>You must know that freedom of association and freedom of speech without any 
>fear of harassment are basic human rights. So what are you talking about?

>Who are You Mr. Kanala?

In case you did not get it, Mr. Kanala does not like Slovak fascists - it is 
your problem that you feel personally offended.

>Peter Kmet

Rosta

Tony wrote:

> My dear fellow:
> 
> I was engaged to a Hungarian-American girl; I have travelled
> (extensively in Hungary: Budapest, Kecskemet; Debrecen; Lake Balaton;
> Aggtelek, etc.); I also have a graduate degree from George Mason
> University.   While I have a TREMENDOUS respect for the Hungarians and
> agree that they are probably the most accomplished (and distinct) of
> the Eastern European nations (please reread my comment on Hungary vs.
> Romania), they DID NOT ERECT THE STATUE OF LIBERTY (that was the
> French); they DID NOT FATHER THE U.S. AEROSPACE INDUSTRY (that was
> largely German immigrant scientists); they DID NOT "MAKE SUPERSONIC
> FLIGHT POSSIBLE.   Your rantings are a clear-cut case of ethnocentrism;
> I'll wager that you (coincidentally) just happen to be of Hungarian
> extraction!   It's funny that whatever nationality "we" are, THAT is
> the nationality which has "contributed the most" to science,
> technology, philosophy, the arts, culture and civilization in general.
> How pathetically tribalistic (and dangerous) is this attitude!
> 
> I myself am of Italian and Argentine Spanish descent.   I could speak
> about all the contributions of the Italians, througout history, and it
> would put you into anaphylactic shock:  Da Vinci; Michelangelo;
> Galileo; Colombo ; and in this century, Marconi and Fermi.   I could
> speak of all the great Spaniards (Cervantes, etc.)   But I will refrain
> from such nationalistic tirades.
> 
> To paraphrase my hero, Rodney King, "Why Can't We All Just Get Along
> (and forget ethnocentrism)??"   THAT was the whole point of my posting
> on Eastern European "fools".   To understand one's problem is THE FIRST
> STEP IN SOLVING IT!   To bring a lasting peace to Eastern Europe, the
> ethnocentric, nationalistic old men who rant on about the "superiority"
> of their ethnic groups must learn some decent, human HUMILITY; their
> countries and peoples are not the centers of the world!
> 
> Tony

Tony, Tony!

For a guy with a graduate degree I thought you'd at least visit my site
and check out the Hungarian Nobel Prize Winners page. More surprising
that a guy with a graduate degree could be so un-gentleman-like and
appear so uneducated. But there are many parts to a man's education.
Here's some information:

1.  The Father of US Aerospace is Todor (Theodore) von Karman who was
born in Budapest and emigrated to the US.  He received the first
National Medal of Science from JFK.  There is also a stamp in his honor
issued a few years ago (1992?).  His mathematical breakthroughs as well
as development of the wind tunnel and much more made supersonic space
flight possible.

2.  The French gave us the Statue of Liberty but (I'm sure this may
embarrass you but at least you remembered France) the Americans didn't
want to fork out the dough to put it up.  SO, it laid there for years
until Jospeh Pulitzer (hear of him - Pulitzer Prize?) came up with an
idea to get the money needed.  His idea was to put the name of anyone
giving a substantial donation into his newspaper.  The idea was a
success.  Pulitzer was born in Hungary. And remember I said "erected"
not "gave."  Maybe you need some more English Literature from George
Mason.

3.  The first sustained nuclear fission reaction was achieved by good
friends Enrico Fermi AND Leo Szilard - Yes, Szilard is Hungarian.  When
the press asked Fermi if he believed in extraterrestrials Fermi replied,
"They are already here, they are called Hungarians."  Szilard (and
Wigner and Teller, also Hungarians) is also responsible for the
Manhattan project idea to develop the Atomic Bomb through the petitions
to Roosevelt and Truman.

Well there is much more at my site should you be interested to learn
something.  It is easier to just blurt out "ETHNOCENTRISM!!!!"  Ooooo. 
I NEVER claimed that Hungarians were better that anyone else or
contributed more, just reacting to your ignorance and claim that all
East Europeans are fools.  I even thought of not writing anything at all
because you sounded so silly.  You see the problems in East Central
Europe are quite complex and cannot be put into one category of old men
raving about superiority.  There are problems of oppression, territorial
disputes, massacres, and things you never heard of.  And the US created
part of these problems.  You obvously know nothing about the region
despite your visits there.  I guess growing up here without any teaching
in real world history, your ideas can come from anywhere - probably
Power Rangers.  Or is it Barney?  "Why Can't We All Just Get Along?" 
Rodney King, now there's a role model!  And I am NOT your Fellow.
-- 
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/

****************************************************
This is important commercial/business information.  If you are offended
by this type of material, Pleasse REPLY and type "REMOVE" in the
SUBJECT area and I will immediately remove you from my mailing list.
****************************************************

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In article >,
Gabor Barsai > wrote:
| 
| In article >,
| Istvan Szucs > wrote:
| >should not get a say in making decisions. This is why if
| >they choose to live abroad they should not vote for elected
| >officials in Hungary. If they don't share the consequences
| >they should not have direct control over the decisionmaking.
| 
| I don't think this is true. Unless somebody leaves permanently, I think they
| will feel the consequences. Maybe not immediately, but after they return. I
| believe the vast majority of people don't leave
| permanently, unless forced.

I disagree. MOst people I knwo who left left for
good. However I agree that people should be able to vote
once they return to Hungary, since they resume being "stakeholders". 

| I also think it would at least be a good will gesture.

I think we should show gestures of goodwill to emigrants. I
don't think giving them control over who is elected as if
they were stakeholders living home is an appropriate
gesture. 

Istvan