In article
>, "Peter
A. Soltesz" > writes:

>Some new and interesting information about British, Irish, Scottish,
>American, Australian, NZ, others and Hungarian peoples.
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>1---The nation called ISRAEL today is really the biblical tribe of JUDAH.
>
>2---The word JEW is a shortening of Judah.
>
>3---The tribe of LEVI (or Levites) are living with the tribe of Judah
today.
>
>4---Jacob s name was changed to ISRAEL and Jacob s name passed
>onto Joseph s sons Ephraim and Manaseh.
>
>4---The tribe of EPHRAIM is the people in the British Isles.
>
>5---The tribe of MANAHSEH is the people in the United States.
>
>6---The ASSYRIA of the bible is today s Germany.
>
>7---The Coronation Chair that Queen Elizabeth sits on has a stone built
>into it.
>That stone is the /stone of destiny/  or //Jacob s pillar stone// and is
>currently
>labeled as such in Westminster Abbey in London, England.
>
>This stone traveled from Judah (Israel) to Ireland, then Scotland, then
>England
>initially in 569 BC when Jeremiah traveled to Ireland and sometimes
referred
>to as the patron saint of Ireland.
>
>The discovery and proofs along with all the biblical citations are in a
book
>called  he United States and Britain in Prophecy - by Herbert W.
Armstrong
>(formerly of the Worldwide Church of God)
>now available from the Philadelphia Church of God.
>[PO Box 3700 Edmond, OK 73083 USA]
>The Philadelphia Trumpet magazine also has details of these.
>
>BTW: For those who are interested to look at some more history there is
>a link between a Hungarian Princess (Margaret) and a Scottish Prince
>who married him and became a saint for the Scottish people because
>of her extraordinary support and help for the people of Scotland.
>There are many references in Scottish history to her.  Possibly many
>other relationships exists between the British Peoples (United Kingdom)
>and Hungarians.
>
>Moreover, there is also a link between George Washington, the founding
>father of the USA,  and the Hungarians.  [Magyar Album - Evanston Univ.]
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>I hope that you find this interesting and eye-opening and may God allow
>you all to learn the truth. Thank you.  Regards to all.
>
>Peter Soltesz
>
>

Roses are redish
violets are blueish
if it wasn't for Christmas
we all would be jewish!

I just could not resist!

Regards,
Zoe Bluestone

 (George Szaszvari) wrote:

>BTW no psychologist (bound by a code of professional ethics) will make a
>public diagnosis or comment on a living person,

In psychological testing, a perfectly insightful and wise statement,
such as the one above, spoiled by another one, such as the one that
follows, it's called a CONFABULATION.

>but one doesn't need to
>be a professional psychologist to see that the problem is one of *manic
>defence* syndrome. Check out books on psychopathology and psychoneuroses.

>George

Bandi

P.S. But seriously, and more to the point of the subject, personally I
think that all suicides are a matter of momentary lapse in sanity.
OTOH, Thomas Sazsz says that madness is a myth, so there goes MY
hypothesis. So, if we replace the term madness/insanity and define
psychopathology as a matter of maladaptive life-style, then, perhaps,
we could start making some GUESSES why Hungarians kill themselves in
such (disproportionally) large numbers.

In article >, 
>At 11:35 18/10/96 -0400, Eva S. Balogh, in response to Gabor Fencsik wrote:
>>At 12:34 AM 10/18/96 PDT, Gabor Fencsik wrote:
>>>Eva Balogh brought up the lamentable state of
>>>early 19th century Hungarian as additional proof of Hungary's
>>>backwardness at the start of the modern era.  Behind this lie a number
>>>of assumptions, each highly debatable: that there is such a thing as a
>>>"backward" language; that the backwardness of the language is correlated
>>>with technological, social, political, and economic backwardness; that
>>>Hungarian was a backward language 180 years ago; and that there existed
>>>things, thoughts, and ideas that were not expressible in the language of
>>>the era.  These are more than subjective assertions and perceived needs:
>>>they are testable hypotheses.

>First of all, you all are more aware of the modernization of Hungarian that
>occurred in the 19th. century, because it is part of your heritage.
>However,I am aware that there is a French Academy (is that the right term)
>which even today tries to eliminate such corrupt terms as *le weekend* and
>*le Big Mac* from the French language.

Yes, the hated Franglais ;-) Is it not interesting that the opposite is
true with English? The large vocabulary of English is due to the free
and enthusiastic adoption of foreign loan words...a few off-hand examples
[eschewing zillions of obvious Greek, Latin, French and German ones]:
coach (Magyar), thug (Hindi), thrive (Norse), rickshaw/jinricksha (Jap),
moose, hickory (Native American), mammoth (Russian), spa (Belgian place
name), skipper, schooner (Dutch), etcetera...

>                         .......To do this, the illustrious personages
>presumably sit around dreaming up suitably French equivalents for these
>terms. Very similar it sounds, to what the Hungarians were doing in the
>19th. century. My question is, is there still a group still doing this in
>Hungary? Is it more informal or more amorphous than the group which
>undertook the modernization in the 19th. century?

Some German friends of mine lament the way some professors, in an ivory
tower somewhere, decide what words should or shouldn't be used as correct
(pure ;-)) German (there has also just been an *official edict* to reform/
simplify aspects of German grammar...BTW some Poles are also getting hot
under the collar about English terms corrupting their language these days).

>Secondly, one cannot just judge Hungary as backward because the language
was
>modernized in the 19th.century. I tend to object to Eva's notion that
>Hungary was backward just because economically it was behind western
Europe.
>Definitely and absolutely, the prosperity of Britain, France, Holland, and
>Spain was built on trade, especially that developed after the discovery of
>the New World (and, as many people say, built on the exploitation of the
>subject peoples through imperialism). And a big part of the problems
between
>Britain and Germany, I think it is well accepted, were the result of German
>resentment that it came late to the imperialist table and thus was not
>terribly successful in creating a profitable empire. Austria-Hungary had
>relatively little opportunity for such colonization (quick, were there any
>overseas Austrian colonies prior to WWI?)

And today...millions of people continue to barely exist and starve
in the third world, largely brought about by being exploited by the
industrialized world.

>Anyway, I think the Hungarians did remarkably well considering the
>devastation to the country which was wrought by the Mongols and the Turks.
>Furthermore, as I have said before, I think it is a mistake to judge the
>achievements or worth of a country or a people in terms of its material
>accomplishments. That is the mistake of the U.S. - the assumption that the
>mere accumulation of material wealth is an indication of superiority. From
>the little I know of  Hungarian history, it appears to me that the
>Hungarians were particularly enlightened when it came to relations with
>other peoples living within their territory. Also, the Western ideals of
>religious freedom and tolerance and the Enlightenment seem to have found
>fertile soil in Hungary. Contrast Hungary with Russia during the same
>period.
>
>>        Let me repeat it. The language reformers had three goals in mind:
>>make the language modern enough to express modern philosophical es
>>technical concepts; make the language capable of catering to a new
>>literary style; and, Magyarize the vocabulary. Gabor doesn't believe there
>>might be ifferences between languages. But, why not? Surely, the language
>>of some Indian tribe living in the jungles of South America can't possibly
>>have the vocabulary and expressiveness of, let's say English or Hungarian.

>Although I don't speak any South American dialects (heck, I have enough
>trouble with English), I am sure this is wrong. First of all, many peoples
>who have an oral culture have a tremendously rich language. For example,
>the traditions in ancient Greece (Homeric) and Ireland (the bards) were
>vital, and were passed down from generation to generation solely by
>memorization. If I remember correctly, the Irish, and this may apply to the
>other Celtic peoples in Britain and Brittany as well, used triads to help
>them remember their poems. Things like *The Three Great Heroes of Ireland*
>and so on. The important thing is that as far as the *advanced* cultures of
>Britain and the U.S. were concerned, these peoples would have been
>considered rather barbaric - and certainly many people are aware of the
>English disdain for the Irish - but their rich oral tradition has been
>translated into a correspondingly rich literary tradition - and where would
>English literature be without the contributions of the Irish writers and
>poets like Joyce and Yeats and Wilde etc. etc. Yet the country was
>nevertheless still poverty-stricken, in terms of material wealth.

All this is most fascinating! I would put it less diplomatically ;-)
viz: the notion that a tribe in the South American jungle must necessarily
have an inferior language to a European one is at best patronizing and
typical of the spiritually bankrupt arrogance that worships egotistical
might that crushes all before it. There are many examples of technologically
less advanced peoples with cultures rooted in profound world-views that,
in many respects, put their supposedly superior conquerors to shame.
The British presence in the Indian sub-continent was an interesting
situation. Mahatma Gandhi and Rabindranath Tagore (one of my very
favourite authors) had a lot to say about what really constitutes
advanced civilization and they weren't too enamoured by the way the
controlling interests of the East India Company, et al, defined it!

>And, finally, isn't it natural that all of the languages of the world in
>the 19th. century had to be modernized in the 19th. century due to the
>technological developments of the era? This happened in English, too, where
>the practice has been to create words for new inventions from Latin (e.g.
>the telephone, etc.) or to borrow phrases from French (e.g. tete-a-tete,
>savoir-faire, etc.), because French culture was considered superior. Is
>that a sign of backwardness or inferiority on the part of the English and
>the Americans? Not necessarily - I'll give the barbarians the benefit of
>the doubt.

Bravissimo! (btw tele=far, phone=sound, is Greek).

>BTW, I wonder if England during the 16th. and 17th. centuries mightn't have
>looked pretty barbaric to the Hungarians, if one considered the standards
>of personal hygiene and the standards of judicial punishment (hanging,
>drawing, aad quartering for example) were concerned, yet in many ways those
>were golden ages of British history. Likewise, I don't think there is any
>doubt that the 19th. and early 20th. century were golden ages for Hungary.
>Thus the flourishing of the arts and literature which Eva referred to.

And I understand that the witch hunt hysteria that swept parts of Europe
at various times didn't find too much support in Hungary.
..
<rest snipped>..

Regards

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ICPUG..C=64 * ARM Club..Acorn * NWLCC

In article
>,
 says...
>
>Some new and interesting information about British, Irish, Scottish,
>American, Australian, NZ, others and Hungarian peoples.
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>1---The nation called ISRAEL today is really the biblical tribe of
JUDAH.
>
>2---The word JEW is a shortening of Judah.
>
>3---The tribe of LEVI (or Levites) are living with the tribe of Judah
today.
>
>4---Jacob s name was changed to ISRAEL and Jacob s name passed
>onto Joseph s sons Ephraim and Manaseh.
>
>4---The tribe of EPHRAIM is the people in the British Isles.
>
>5---The tribe of MANAHSEH is the people in the United States.
>
>6---The ASSYRIA of the bible is today s Germany.
>
>7---The Coronation Chair that Queen Elizabeth sits on has a stone built
>into it.
>That stone is the /stone of destiny/  or //Jacob s pillar stone// and is
>currently
>labeled as such in Westminster Abbey in London, England.
>
>This stone traveled from Judah (Israel) to Ireland, then Scotland, then
>England
>initially in 569 BC when Jeremiah traveled to Ireland and sometimes
referred
>to as the patron saint of Ireland.
>
>The discovery and proofs along with all the biblical citations are in a
book
>called  he United States and Britain in Prophecy - by Herbert W.
Armstrong
>(formerly of the Worldwide Church of God)
>now available from the Philadelphia Church of God.
>[PO Box 3700 Edmond, OK 73083 USA]
>The Philadelphia Trumpet magazine also has details of these.
>
>BTW: For those who are interested to look at some more history there is
>a link between a Hungarian Princess (Margaret) and a Scottish Prince
>who married him and became a saint for the Scottish people because
>of her extraordinary support and help for the people of Scotland.
>There are many references in Scottish history to her.  Possibly many
>other relationships exists between the British Peoples (United Kingdom)
>and Hungarians.
>
>Moreover, there is also a link between George Washington, the founding
>father of the USA,  and the Hungarians.  [Magyar Album - Evanston Univ.]
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>I hope that you find this interesting and eye-opening and may God allow
>you all to learn the truth. Thank you.  Regards to all.
>
>Peter Soltesz

According to George Mikes, "everybody is Hungarian, and almost everybody
is Jewish..."

Agnes

Before I forget, I'd like to mention a theory explaining that the
Hungarian suicidal tendency is due to physical factors, an imbalance
in the ionization (electrical fields) of the air; in other words, the
weather has an adverse effect on people. The MIT Review (Dec 1972)
published a paper connecting a *suicide belt* in Central Europe
(encompassing Hungary) with a meteorological phenomenon known as the
Foehn Wind. This phenomenon is not unique to Central Europe and plenty
of other cases world-wide, along with detailed discussion of the nature
of the Foehn Wind, are discussed in the book: *The Ion Effect* by Fred
Soyka.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ICPUG..C=64 * ARM Club..Acorn * NWLCC

In article >, !
says...
>
 (George Szaszvari) wrote:
>
>>BTW no psychologist (bound by a code of professional ethics) will make a
>>public diagnosis or comment on a living person,
>
>In psychological testing, a perfectly insightful and wise statement,
>such as the one above, spoiled by another one, such as the one that
>follows, it's called a CONFABULATION.
>
>>but one doesn't need to
>>be a professional psychologist to see that the problem is one of *manic
>>defence* syndrome. Check out books on psychopathology and psychoneuroses.

Hmmm...I think we're at cross purposes here, but, anyway, yes, (to our
friends Ferenc and Eva), but for the sake of everyone else I exercised
my privilege as an *intelligent layman* ;-)

>P.S. But seriously, and more to the point of the subject, personally I
>think that all suicides are a matter of momentary lapse in sanity.
>OTOH, Thomas Sazsz says that madness is a myth, so there goes MY
>hypothesis. So, if we replace the term madness/insanity and define
>psychopathology as a matter of maladaptive life-style, then, perhaps,
>we could start making some GUESSES why Hungarians kill themselves in
>such (disproportionally) large numbers.

Many years ago I read Szasz' *The Manufacture of Madness* and watched
the Szasz interview with Jonathan Miller (one of a BBC TV series in
which Miller engaged an interesting intellectual in a soul-searching
discussion) and came away from all that with a lot of sympathy for
Szasz' ideas which Miller and most psychiatrists find too, er, radical.
Szasz seems to argue his thesis from a position mixing idealized
political radicalism and monotheistic mysticism...making it more of a
philosophical matter. I'd like to know more about his upbringing and
background...time to check out some more literature on Szasz...(postings
about Thomas Szasz welcome here...Joe Szalai? you recently indicated an
acquaintance with Szasz' writings).

According to my personal interpretation of those suicidal situations
I don't believe that suicide is usually an act of insanity, temporary,
or not. I suspect it is more the disintegration of the ego in relation
to the world...the suicide can no longer bear to exist as with all his/
her previous hopes and expectations apparently dashed...life becomes
meaningless, thus depression,melancholia, etc...It is terribly easy to
see suicides as weak, superficial, etc, but most of us have been close
at some dark times in our lives. Several people I've known committed
suicide, another one attempted it several times but lives happily today
...all those situations were born of a feeling of desperate hopelessness
and emotional anguish. Several testimonies I've heard and seen of Nazi
extermination camp survivors are very revealing on these issues...I've
got a couple of books somewhere by one such survivor (now a psychotherapist)
one of the titles I remember being *The Doctor and the Soul*...The
first conscious acquaintance I made with the subject was a book about
*Psychotherapy and Meditation* (I was primarily interested in oriental
religion and philosophy at the time) and, funnily enough, that approach
is still the most pertinent way of studying and dealing with the matter
on a practical basis as far as I'm concerned.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ICPUG..C=64 * ARM Club..Acorn * NWLCC

[Fwd: Re: The Hungarians in Romania]
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:
              Re:The Hungarians in Romania
        Date:
              20 Oct 1996 19:44:14 -0400
       From:
               (Crelu)
Organization:
              America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
 Newsgroups:
              soc.culture.romanian


Such barbaric acts were committed by the Hungarian Authorities all along
the period after the Vienna Diktats of 1938 and 1940 in the territories
occuppied by Hungary, matched by the old practices of denationalization
and Magyarization of the ethnic minorities (see "Habsburg Monarchy 1809-
1918- by A.J.P.Taylor).The situation became so dramatic because of the
masacres and terorist measures taken against the Romanian population
that
even Hungary's German and Italian protectors had to intervine. A joint
German-Italian commission was set-up to "investigate the situation
cropped
up in Transylvania", known also as the HENCKE-ROGGER Commission, which
conducted a number of inquires in northern Transylvania on the numerous
abusive measures against Romanian population. A report drawn up by the
Commission on August 24, 1942, recorded, among other things:
"1. After the second arbitration ("Diktate") of Vienna, the situation of
the Romanian population in northern transylvania, WHERE IT MAKES THE
MAJORITY (my underlining), has worsened constantly;
2. The Romanians are seriously disadvantaged in the cultural domain. The
approach to the social issue is everywhere unquestionably under the
token
of PLANNED (my underlining again) Magyarization, notwithstanding the
geographic conditions. Unlike the Hungarian population, that has
numerous
scholls and churches, the Romanian population is FORBIDDEN to set up
such
schools. Romanian education is considerable endangered, be it only for
causes related to language. The means constantly applied by the
Hungarian
authorities, assiduously pursuing the DENATIANALIZATION of the national
minorities and their total and definitive dissolution in the mass of the
Hungarian population extended also to the recently ocuppied teritories,
including and specially in north-western Transylvania. "
The Romanians were "systematically and greatly eliminated by
administrative means from economic life".As the report showed, "it
applied
even to workers, especially to craftsmen and free-lancers". The system
of
forced labour was one of the ampliest, most brutal and inhuman form of
oppression. In 1940-1945, over 70,00 people among Romanians alone were
incorporated in forced labour dedatchments (see "Horthyst-Fascist Terror
In The NorthWestern Transylvania"). Very badly treated were the Jews. It
is known that the Hungarian authorities sent to mass extermination camp
at
Birkenau - Auschwitz daily batches of 10,000-12,000 Jews (see
"Exception"
by Oliver Lustig). That is how of the soe 700,000 Jews living in Hungary
by the eve of the Second Word War, one of the largest ethnical
minorities
in Hungary, only several tens of hundres were left alive by the end of
the
war.
The ordeal of the war was fierce for the national minorities in HUngary,
and the cut in their number more drastic. However, the calvary of those
who remained there did not come to an end; it continued in new, more
subtile forms and, one may say, very efficient forms. The government of
Czehoslovakia and Hungary struck an agreement on December 6, 1945, on an
exchange of population- 400,000 Slovaks from Hungary for 600,000
Hungarians from Czehoslovakia. But the Hungarians in Czehoslovakia did
not
pass to Hungary in the end. And so, the Slovak minority too, in Hungary,
would diminished (see 'Hongrie" by Koloman de Kania , page 597).
AND THIS IS NOT ALL!
===va urma===

On Sun, 20 Oct 1996, aheringer wrote:
<SNIP>
> According to George Mikes, "everybody is Hungarian, and almost everybody
> is Jewish..."
>
> Agnes
>
++++++ Well that is simply not true.....
BTW the stone I mentioned hjas been apparently returned to Scotland by
England.
Peter

First is Ferenc's posting, then George's comment.. and them my response.

> In article >, 
> says...
> >
> >Someone on this list raised the possibility that the Hungarian propensity
> >to commit suicide might in some way be connected to low self-esteem and a
> >feeling of helplessness in the midst of adverse historical events.  Reading
> >recent (and earlier) postings penned by Eva Balogh, I suddenly realized
> >that in her person we may have the incarnation of the self-loathing and
> >perceived inferiority that some attribute to the Hungarian psyche.  Eva
> >rarely misses a chance to find fault with and denigrate the national
> >character, historical figures, most anythig ever accomplished by Hungary
> >or Hungarians.  Her attitude may actually harm her credibility by raising
> >the question in the reader: "How can I take seriously anything written by
> >a member of such a'stupid, backward, cowardly, racist' etc. (Eva's oft-used
> >adjectives) tribe?"
> >Is there a psychologist out there who could comment on this?

George's response:

> Ferenc, although some list members didn't like your posting, on reading
> it carefully I consider it as valid as anything else posted here. It is
> normal for people to overreact whenever they feel threatened by something
> like a psychoanalytical inquiry, even if it's not directed at themselves,,,
> but the fear is there and they often hide behind excuses of the necessity
> for politeness and decorum (usually an euphemism for acquiescing in evil
> doing, just like how the UN recently behaved while the Serbs freely raped,
> tortured and murdered, not to mention 1956). Please do not allow people
> to shut you up on a free speech forum when you are taking on someone who
> consistently disparages just about everyone and everything under the sun
> (apart from her sycophantic lapdogs, of course). I would have more sympathy
> for your critics if they were as quick to condemn the arrogant stupidity of
> your adversary.
> BTW no psychologist (bound by a code of professional ethics) will make a
> public diagnosis or comment on a living person, but one doesn't need to
> be a professional psychologist to see that the problem is one of *manic
> defence* syndrome. Check out books on psychopathology and psychoneuroses.
>
> George

I agree that everyone has a right to free speech and expression of opinions.
Ferenc can say whatever he wants (as he does), and others are free to respond.
His last posting even solicited opinions (whether sincerely searching for a
psychologist's help or not...), so no one should be shocked by what came
his way.

By telling Ferenc that his little attacks on others are a bit repulsive is
neither denying his right to air his views *nor* glorifying the person who is
the object of his rantings. Attacks on issues seem much more fair than public
denegration of an individual.

He sure does not seem to like the freedom of expression of some other people,
and  *he's* the one who has condemned others and asks for group support to shut
the other person up!

Freedom of expression is valuable, so people should not be surprised if others
tell them to show a little more respect, and they should not feel *unfairly
attacked* if others have the nerve to use their freedom of expression to
express opposition to the opinions of others.

But by all means, people can express their views. I, myself, have not agreed
100% with anyone or even disagreed 100% with anyone, but I always like the
free exchange of views.

- Mark H

>At 2:39 PM 10/20/96, Zoltan Szekely wrote:
>>As I promised I show a sermon, given by the Rev. Joe Wright, pastor
>>of a Wichita church in Kansas (Bob Dole's home state!!). It was
>>given as an opening prayer for the work day of Congress members in
>>the Kansas state legislation at the state capitol.
>>
>>The sermon has a strong social message, which makes the brains of
>>most liberals blow up.
>>
>>Enjoy it!                                                Sz. Zoli
>>
>> -------------------- -------------------- --------------------
>>
>>Heavenly Father,
>>
>>we came before You today to ask your forgiveness and seek your
>>direction and guidance. We know your word says: 'Woe to those
>>who call evil good,' but that's exactly what we've done. We have
>>lost our spiritual equilibrium and inverted our values.
>>
>>We confess that we have ridiculed the absolute truth of your word
>>and called it moral pluralism. We have worshipped other gods and
>>called it multiculturalism. We have endorsed perversion and called
>>it an alternative lifestyle.
>>
>>We have exploited the poor and called it lottery. We have
>>neglegted the needy and called it self-preservation. We have
>>rewarded laziness and called it welfare.
>>
>>We heve killed our unborn and called it a choice. We have shot
>>abortionists and called it justifiable.
>>
>>We have neglected to discipline our children and called it
>>building esteem. We have abused power and called it political
>>savvy. We have coveted our neighbor' possessions and called it
>>ambition.  We have polluted the air with profanity and
>>pornography and called it freedom of expression.
>
>Now if you make a few substitutions the whole passage would become familiar
>to Hungarians.
>
>Comrade Stalin,
>
>we came before You today to ask your forgiveness and seek your
>direction and guidance. We know your word says: 'Woe to those
>who call evil good,' but that's exactly what we've done. We have
>lost our spiritual equilibrium [Leninism] and inverted our values [to
>Trotskyism].
>
>We confess [self-criticism] that we have ridiculed the absolute truth of
>your word
>and called it moral pluralism [democracy]...
>
>Comrade Rakosi
>
> I leave the rest to your fertile imagination...
>
>God save us from the good pastor's imaginary America.
>
>Peter I. Hidas
>
>Peter,Mr.Hidas,I have to call you Mr.,after this sermon.I hope the good
Pastor will see the light,with his maximum followers including the original
sender.
On the other hand it is also interresting to hear from you on this subject.
May your words continue ....
With respect:Andy Kozma.

21 October 1956

In the town of Eger at the Teachers' College students establish the Kossuth
Circle and decide to join the MFESZ.

The Hungarian party and government delegation continues its Yugoslav visit.
They arrive at a holiday resort on Lake Bled.

Gomulka becomes the leader of Poland.

my HEYDUCK ancestors came from Hungary.  Are there many Heyducks (by some
spelling of the name) in Hungary today?  Are there any good books available in
English (or even German) on the Heyducks as a people group?

Richard Heyduck
Pastor, First United Methodist Church, Hooks, TX
http://gbgm-umc.org/churches/FirstTX001

This comes from the OMRI DAILY DIGEST, No. 204, Part II, 21 October
1996.  I would like to get reactions from the members of this list to
the results of the poll.  Does it surprise anyone?  I know in America
that things happening in the U.S. during the 1950s are, at best,
little known to today's citizenry, but I was a little bit surprised
that the same appears to be true in Hungary.

HUNGARIAN POLL SHOWS AMBIGUOUS ATTITUDES TOWARD 1956 UPRISING. The
majority of 1,854 respondents in a recent Teledirect poll on the 1956
uprising expressed no opinion on the events of 40 years ago, Magyar
Hirlap reported on 21 October. Of the 48% who gave an opinion, most
had only a superficial knowledge of the events and figures involved,
the poll found. Only 10% said the anniversary of the uprising should
be Hungary's most important national holiday, while 55% selected 15
March (the anniversary of the failed 1848 revolution). According to
43% of respondents, the events of 1956 were a revolution, while 16%
described them as a fight for freedom and 10% each as a popular
uprising and as a counter-revolution. -- Ben Slay
Frank A. Aycock, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Communication
Appalachian State University
Boone, NC 28608 U.S.A.
Fax: (704) 262-2543
E-Mail: 

Hidas Peter:
>
> At 2:39 PM 10/20/96, Zoltan Szekely wrote:
> >As I promised I show a sermon, given by the Rev. Joe Wright, pastor
> >of a Wichita church in Kansas (Bob Dole's home state!!). It was
> >given as an opening prayer for the work day of Congress members in
> >the Kansas state legislation at the state capitol.
> >
> >The sermon has a strong social message, which makes the brains of
> >most liberals blow up.
> >
> >Enjoy it!                                                Sz. Zoli
> >
> > -------------------- -------------------- --------------------
> >
> >Heavenly Father,
> >
> >we came before You today to ask your forgiveness and seek your
> >direction and guidance. We know your word says: 'Woe to those
> >who call evil good,' but that's exactly what we've done. We have
> >lost our spiritual equilibrium and inverted our values.
> >
> >We confess that we have ridiculed the absolute truth of your word
> >and called it moral pluralism. We have worshipped other gods and
> >called it multiculturalism. We have endorsed perversion and called
> >it an alternative lifestyle.
> >
> >We have exploited the poor and called it lottery. We have
> >neglegted the needy and called it self-preservation. We have
> >rewarded laziness and called it welfare.
> >
> >We heve killed our unborn and called it a choice. We have shot
> >abortionists and called it justifiable.
> >
> >We have neglected to discipline our children and called it
> >building esteem. We have abused power and called it political
> >savvy. We have coveted our neighbor' possessions and called it
> >ambition.  We have polluted the air with profanity and
> >pornography and called it freedom of expression.
>
> Now if you make a few substitutions the whole passage would become familiar
> to Hungarians.
>
> Comrade Stalin,
>
> we came before You today to ask your forgiveness and seek your
> direction and guidance. We know your word says: 'Woe to those
> who call evil good,' but that's exactly what we've done. We have
> lost our spiritual equilibrium [Leninism] and inverted our values [to
> Trotskyism].
>
> We confess [self-criticism] that we have ridiculed the absolute truth of
> your word
> and called it moral pluralism [democracy]...
>
> Comrade Rakosi
>
>  I leave the rest to your fertile imagination...
>
> God save us from the good pastor's imaginary America.
>
> Peter I. Hidas
>
It's really very funny. But has nothing to do with the prayer,
which was prayed in a legislative body in the USA.     (Sz.Z.)

At 11:18 AM 10/21/96 +0000, Frank Aycock wrote:
>This comes from the OMRI DAILY DIGEST, No. 204, Part II, 21 October
>1996.  I would like to get reactions from the members of this list to
>the results of the poll.  Does it surprise anyone?  I know in America
>that things happening in the U.S. during the 1950s are, at best,
>little known to today's citizenry, but I was a little bit surprised
>that the same appears to be true in Hungary.
>
>HUNGARIAN POLL SHOWS AMBIGUOUS ATTITUDES TOWARD 1956 UPRISING. The
>majority of 1,854 respondents in a recent Teledirect poll on the 1956
>uprising expressed no opinion on the events of 40 years ago, Magyar
>Hirlap reported on 21 October. Of the 48% who gave an opinion, most
>had only a superficial knowledge of the events and figures involved,
>the poll found. Only 10% said the anniversary of the uprising should
>be Hungary's most important national holiday, while 55% selected 15
>March (the anniversary of the failed 1848 revolution). According to
>43% of respondents, the events of 1956 were a revolution, while 16%
>described them as a fight for freedom and 10% each as a popular
>uprising and as a counter-revolution. -- Ben Slay

        No, I am not surprised. Actually, I am surprised that 43% of the
respondents considered a revolution. In 1989 only twenty some percent
thought so and twenty some percent considered it a counterrevolution. So, at
least we are going in the right direction.

        As for not knowing much about it, I'm again not surprised. The fact
is that the younger people "are sick and tired" of even hearing about the
events. Mind you, as a young nephew of mine admitted, he doesn't know much
about it.

        Odd situation! An event which a nation can only be proud of doesn't
make an impact on the youth of the country.

        Eva Balogh

This article was in today's Record, our local paper, and it is from Southam
News.
----------------------------

Ottawa
Soldiers arrested in Hungary

Hungarian officials are holding two Canadian Forces soldiers in custody and
are searching for two more after an assault and sexual assault on a couple
in Budapest.  The soldiers were on leave from the NATO-led peacekeeping
mission in nearby Bosnia when the assaults took place late Friday.

The incident was brought to light after a story - based on information from
the state-run MTI news agency - was published in Mai Nap, Budapest's largest
daily newspaper.

"From what our reporter was able to find out," said Ferenc Kosegi,
editor-in-chief of Mai Nap, "the soldiers were drunk, saw an attractive
woman in the passenger seat of a car at a stop sign, and tried to talk to her.

"The driver tried to drive off, but the soldiers blocked his path.  When he
objected, three of them dragged him out of the car and beat him, while the
other one attacked the woman.

"But someone alerted police before he could go very far."

Following the attack, the man and the woman - both Hungarians from Budapest
- were taken to hospital and treated for cuts and bruises.

Defence officials in Ottawa did not confirm those details, but acknowledged
an incident had occurred involving Canadian soldiers in Budapest.

"The incident is being investigated by people from our Bosnian headquarters
in Coralici," said Capt. James Simiana.  "Right now, we are trying to
determine exactly what happened."

Most of the Canadian soldiers now serving in Bosnia are from the Royal 22nd
Regiment (the Van Doos), based in Valcartier, Que.
------------------------------

Submitted by:

Joe Szalai

At 07:43 PM 10/20/96 -0400, Jeliko wrote as his parting words:

>Finally, I came to the conclusion
>that in one area, there is a gap between the west and Hungary and that is
>history writing.

        Thank God, there isn't. As I said Hungary is blessed with very good
historians. I already mention Kosary, Szucs, but one can also add Peter
Hanak, expert on the Habsburg Monarchy and many others.

>Yes, there is and should
>be some revisionism in history as we find more information on the basis of
>which one must change old data which may have been based on incomplete or in
>some cases incorrect information.

        There is, of course, nothing new in this. In fact, history can be
looked upon as a dialogue, argument, over history among historians. I'm sure
you all heard the old cliche: history is rewritten in every generation.
However, facts usually don't change and no interpretation can ignore facts.
And facts overwhelmingly support the hypothesis that Eastern European
development was slower and was behind Western Europe. It is unlikely that
suddenly we will discover guilds in East European cities in the eleventh
century or stone bridges across the Danube between Pest and Buda in the
twelfth century. It is very unlikely that we will discover a slew of
flowering East European universities beside Prague and Cracow. It is
unlikely that archeologists will come up with large urban centers in the
fourteenth century. And one could go on and on. And as long as we deal with
hitherto known facts any sane person must conclude that East European
development was behind the western.

>One reason, in my belief, is that they had strong central power, that was a
>national central power.

        Sounds nice but what about the Italian city states. No national
central power there and yet. Or even the Germanies.

>Later, the Habsburg's prime interest, and mostly
>sole interest, was their staying in power at the expense of any advancement
>of their realm.

        Surely, Jeliko has a very strong anti-Habsburg bias. It is hard to
believe that the Habsburgs wanted to rule over a poverty-stricken realm and
they in fact kept Hungary back from advancement for that reason.

>In my opinion, history should never be treated in a closed mind, dogmatic
>way. In many cases repetition does not make truth.

        Agreed. The trouble is that Jeliko refuses to notice that he has
already made up his mind about Hungary's development a long time ago and
every historian who doesn't seem to agree with him [which means practically
everyone when it comes to economic development] is simply careless, biased,
dogmatic, or simply ignorant. As I said earlier no historian can ignore the
interpretations of other historians. Any undergraduate learns, if he has a
decent college education, that one starts with the general and moves on to
the specific when one begins research on a topic. One cannot just go
straight to original sources without having a wider background which can be
gained only from secondary sources. There are pitfalls which can be avoided
only with that wider background. A good example would be the meaning of the
world "chancellor" which in those days simply meant secretary. Thus, it was
no proof, as Jeliko meant it to be, for the existence of the chancellery
before 1185. And you need secondary sources in order to continue the
historical dialogue which is the essence of writing history.

        Eva Balogh

I have heard that Hungary has a higher incidence of manic-depression/bipolar
disorder than other countries. Perhaps this is related?

>Before I forget, I'd like to mention a theory explaining that the
>Hungarian suicidal tendency is due to physical factors, an imbalance
>in the ionization (electrical fields) of the air; in other words, the
>weather has an adverse effect on people. The MIT Review (Dec 1972)
>published a paper connecting a *suicide belt* in Central Europe
>(encompassing Hungary) with a meteorological phenomenon known as the
>Foehn Wind. This phenomenon is not unique to Central Europe and plenty
>of other cases world-wide, along with detailed discussion of the nature
>of the Foehn Wind, are discussed in the book: *The Ion Effect* by Fred
>Soyka.
>
>--
>George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
>Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ICPUG..C=64 * ARM Club..Acorn * NWLCC
>
>

>This article was in today's Record, our local paper, and it is from Southam
>News.
>----------------------------
>
>Ottawa
>Soldiers arrested in Hungary
>
>Hungarian officials are holding two Canadian Forces soldiers in custody and
>are searching for two more after an assault and sexual assault on a couple
>in Budapest.  The soldiers were on leave from the NATO-led peacekeeping
>mission in nearby Bosnia when the assaults took place late Friday.
>
>The incident was brought to light after a story - based on information from
>the state-run MTI news agency - was published in Mai Nap, Budapest's largest
>daily newspaper.
>
>"From what our reporter was able to find out," said Ferenc Kosegi,
>editor-in-chief of Mai Nap, "the soldiers were drunk, saw an attractive
>woman in the passenger seat of a car at a stop sign, and tried to talk to her.
>
>"The driver tried to drive off, but the soldiers blocked his path.  When he
>objected, three of them dragged him out of the car and beat him, while the
>other one attacked the woman.
>
>"But someone alerted police before he could go very far."
>
>Following the attack, the man and the woman - both Hungarians from Budapest
>- were taken to hospital and treated for cuts and bruises.
>
>Defence officials in Ottawa did not confirm those details, but acknowledged
>an incident had occurred involving Canadian soldiers in Budapest.
>
>"The incident is being investigated by people from our Bosnian headquarters
>in Coralici," said Capt. James Simiana.  "Right now, we are trying to
>determine exactly what happened."
>
>Most of the Canadian soldiers now serving in Bosnia are from the Royal 22nd
>Regiment (the Van Doos), based in Valcartier, Que.
>------------------------------
>
>Submitted by:
>
>Joe Szalai
>
 Joe:I have read this article.What aggraveted me was the Toronto Star puts
it on its first page.
The Paper had a crusade against the canadain army,since the Somalia
incident,and grabed this uncofirmed story,to further,in my oppinion,there
degrading the army.
I do not have any connection to the army,but I think there are in evry bunch
a few bad apples.
Andy K.

The equivalent Hungarian word/name is: Hajdu; the form you quote is a
Germanized spelling. The word also has a Turkish parallel: haidut.

Louis Elteto
Portland State Unviersity

On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Richard Heyduck wrote:

> According to the research I have done, it appears possible that the forbears
 of
> my HEYDUCK ancestors came from Hungary.  Are there many Heyducks (by some
> spelling of the name) in Hungary today?  Are there any good books available i
n
> English (or even German) on the Heyducks as a people group?
>
> Richard Heyduck
> Pastor, First United Methodist Church, Hooks, TX
> http://gbgm-umc.org/churches/FirstTX001
>

On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

>         Surely, Jeliko has a very strong anti-Habsburg bias. It is hard to
> believe that the Habsburgs wanted to rule over a poverty-stricken realm and
> they in fact kept Hungary back from advancement for that reason.
>
  I really must say something here. If Jeliko has an anti-Habsburg bias,
  then you have a pro-Habsburg bias, Eva. I am not a historian and don't
  claim to be one, but anything  I have studied indicated that they have
  strongly discouraged industrial development in Hungary. Where does the
  expression "the bread-basket of Europe" come from?  It comes  from the
  Habsburgs's intention to keep Hungary agricultural.
  And  "It is hard to believe ..."  hardly qualifies  as the correct ap-
  proach to history-writing.

> already made up his mind about Hungary's development a long time ago and
> every historian who doesn't seem to agree with him [which means practically
> everyone when it comes to economic development] is simply careless, biased,
> dogmatic, or simply ignorant.
>         Eva Balogh
>
  Don't you think this is uncalled for?  He has never  pretended to be a
  a historian and  I wasn't aware of  the prohibition  of non-historians
  expressing their views on history. You may have said he is uninformed,
  but you clearly wanted to insult him and call him ignorant. He may not
  take exception,but I do. What is even more distressing is the fact you
  have done this after he has left.  Whatever happened to civilized dis-
  cussion, addressing the subject at hand?
                                           Amos

Could you please explain a/the "Delibab" (fata morgana) - exactly what
is one supposed to see ?

At 2:44 PM 10/21/96, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>At 11:18 AM 10/21/96 +0000, Frank Aycock wrote:
>>This comes from the OMRI DAILY DIGEST, No. 204, Part II, 21 October
>>1996.  I would like to get reactions from the members of this list to
>>the results of the poll.  Does it surprise anyone?  I know in America
>>that things happening in the U.S. during the 1950s are, at best,
>>little known to today's citizenry, but I was a little bit surprised
>>that the same appears to be true in Hungary.

>        No, I am not surprised. Actually, I am surprised that 43% of the
>respondents considered a revolution. In 1989 only twenty some percent
>thought so and twenty some percent considered it a counterrevolution. So, at
>least we are going in the right direction.

Hungarians celebrate March 15 as a national holiday for close to 150 years.
During the Kadar regime, that is between 1957 and 1989, young people were
only told  about the "counterrevolution" of 1956. The revolutionaries of
1956 either emigrated or were jailed or were bought off. The revolution
happened two generations ago. There is no revolutionary situation in the
Hungary of today, so there is little need  for the young to remember 1956.
Who is going to teach them? Most of the teachers grew up in the Kadar era.
They prefer to remember nostalgically the good old days, the
gulyas-communism of Kadar. Freedom they have, bread is in demand.

Peter I. Hidas

On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Zoltan Szekely wrote:

> Hidas Peter:
> >
> > Now if you make a few substitutions the whole passage would become familiar
> > to Hungarians.
> >
> > Comrade Stalin,
> >
> > we came before You today to ask your forgiveness and seek your
> > direction and guidance. We know your word says: 'Woe to those
> > who call evil good,' but that's exactly what we've done. We have
> > lost our spiritual equilibrium [Leninism] and inverted our values [to
> > Trotskyism].
> >
> > We confess [self-criticism] that we have ridiculed the absolute truth of
> > your word
> > and called it moral pluralism [democracy]...
> >
> > Comrade Rakosi
> >
> >  I leave the rest to your fertile imagination...
> >
> > God save us from the good pastor's imaginary America.
> >
> > Peter I. Hidas
> >
> It's really very funny. But has nothing to do with the prayer,
> which was prayed in a legislative body in the USA.     (Sz.Z.)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
Peter,

   I wonder how many angels could dance on his head?
                                                      Amos

At 04:49 PM 10/21/96 -0400, Andy Kozma wrote:

<snip>
> Joe:I have read this article.What aggraveted me was the Toronto Star puts
>it on its first page.
>The Paper had a crusade against the canadain army,since the Somalia
>incident,and grabed this uncofirmed story,to further,in my oppinion,there
>degrading the army.
>I do not have any connection to the army,but I think there are in evry bunch
>a few bad apples.
>Andy K.

The news now says that the Canadian soldiers were not charged.  Hungarian
officials are saying that the original story was exaggerated.  It just goes
to show you that fresh news is no news.

Joe Szalai

 wrote Thu Oct 17 11:23:54 EDT 1996 HUNGARY #820:

>On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Peter I. Hidas wrote:
>> At 3:07 PM 10/16/96, L & P Hall wrote:
>> >Was there a town in Hungary called "Oyhell"  (phonetic spelling)
>> Ujhely, short for Satoraljaujhely (maybe)
> My guess was Becsujhely, which was perhaps (relatively) bigger then?!
>
 >--
 >Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;

No. Becsujhely (Wienerneustadt) is and was in Austria, not Hungary.

Ferenc

In article >,
 says...
>
>At 09:10 PM 10/14/96 GMT, you wrote:
>
>>In article >,
 says...
>>>
>>>"Autumn Leaves: An Hungarian Love Story" will be aired next Sunday,
>>October
>>>20, on the CBC radio network across Canada.  It will be a part of
>>"Sunday
>>>Morning" which is broadcast every Sunday from 9am to 12noon.
>>>
>>>"Autumn Leaves" is the story of Andras and Zsuzsi.  They met in
Budapest
>>in
>>>1952 and fell in love with each other.  In 1956, when they were only
18
>>>years old, they fled Hungary.  Andras ended up in England and Zsuzsi
in
>>>Canada.  They both married and raised a family but never forgot about
>>each
>>>other.  Then, many years later......
>>>
>>>By the way, from the brief excerpt I heard this morning, it is a true
>>story.
>>>
>>>Joe Szalai
>>
>>Joe, maybe you could tell us the continuation of the story, after you
>>have listened to it.  I will be baby-sitting next weekend, so I won't
be
>>able to listen to stories on the radio.  Thanks in advance.  Regards,
>>Agnes
>
>Too bad you missed the broadcast, Agnes.  Autumn Leaves was a beautiful,
>moving story of enduring love.  Andras and Zsuzsi didn't flee Hungary
>together in 1956 but met in Austria just as Andras was leaving for
England.
>They both met other partners and married.  In 1960 Andras went to
Portland,
>Maine because Zsuzsi was living there.  He didn't knock on the door of
her
>house but remained outside for a while and then moved on.  He returned
to
>England.  Every once in a while they kept in touch but most of the
>information was about family members dying, etc.  Zsuzsi's husband got
ill
>and died in 1991.  Andras' marriage was falling apart and eventually
ended.
>In 1994, in Monaco, Andras and Zsuzsi were married.  "Aumumn Leaves" was
>composed by Joseph Kozma and it was Andras and Zsuzsi's song when they
were
>falling in love in Hungary.
>
>Agnes, if you want a transcript of the broadcast you should contact the
CBC
>in Toronto.  For a small fee they usually make transcripts available to
the
>public.
>
>Joe Szalai

Thank you very much, Joe.  Regards, Agnes

At 11:19 PM 10/20/96 GMT, George Szaszvari wrote:

<snip>
>Many years ago I read Szasz' *The Manufacture of Madness* and watched
>the Szasz interview with Jonathan Miller (one of a BBC TV series in
>which Miller engaged an interesting intellectual in a soul-searching
>discussion) and came away from all that with a lot of sympathy for
>Szasz' ideas which Miller and most psychiatrists find too, er, radical.
>Szasz seems to argue his thesis from a position mixing idealized
>political radicalism and monotheistic mysticism...making it more of a
>philosophical matter. I'd like to know more about his upbringing and
>background...time to check out some more literature on Szasz...(postings
>about Thomas Szasz welcome here...Joe Szalai? you recently indicated an
>acquaintance with Szasz' writings).

I read much of Szasz' works many years ago while I was working as a
"housekeeper" (cleaner) at the Douglas Hospital in Verdun, Quebec.  I was
drawn to his work because my academic interest was about political power and
control.  His writings were fresh and very original, and I enjoyed them very
much.  I also agreed with his views.  The Douglas Hospital is a psychiatric
institute and most of Szasz' criticism of psychiatry resonated up and down
the hallways of the buildings.

I was shown one of the pavilions that was emptied of homosexuals in 1969
when Canadian law decriminalized homosexuality.  I saw an elderly woman
commit her husband because he had lost control of his bowel movements and
because he had a nasty habit of talking about the past.  And she didn't like
either!!  I also saw some physical abuse of patients by staff.  How could I
not agree with Szasz' views and criticisms of psychiatry?

I kept sane that year by also reading Eugene Ionesco.

Joe Szalai

"Institutional psychiatry is a continuation of the Inquisition. All that has
really changed is the vocabulary and the social style. The vocabulary
conforms to the intellectual expectations of our age: it is a pseudo-medical
jargon that parodies the concepts of science. The social style conforms to
the political expectations of our age: it is a pseudo-liberal social
movement that parodies the ideals of freedom and rationality."
             Thomas Szasz

jeliko > wrote:

>My interest is mainly in the earlier days of the Carpathian basin and the
>surrounding areas. And there, the absolutly known information is much more
>meager. There are revisions to the history as more records are found and as
>they are better compaired.

Since you stressed "the earlier days of the Carpathian basin," my
guess is you are referring not to documentary or archaeological
evidence, but rather to the geological record ;-)

>Why do I go back to original records as much as possible? Because I do not
>need a "designated thinker" for me, particularly when comparison of original
>data with the conclusion of the designated thinker is not clear.

The premise is OK, but, as I have often observed, in many instances
you seem completely unaware of the scholarly work of other historians,
especially those from the West, that have started exactly from the
same original records. Thus, in some cases you are forced to "reinvent
the wheel." In other instances you are not aware of the bias (and I'm
using this term in a very general sense)  introduced by the editors
and translators of these "original" sources, flaws that have already
been  emphasized by people for whom this field is not a hobby but a
way of making a living.  Anyhow, I have always enjoyed your posts and
and never blamed their weak points on an apriori nationalistic bias.

Regards,

Liviu Iordache.