Thanks to Bela Liptak and Jim Doepp for the information about the continu-
ing failure of the Romanian government to restore assets seized by the
former Communist governments, and about continuing attempts to impose a
restrictive language law.

I would suggest that the credibility of protests from Americans of Hungarian
origin is likely to be higher if we have the elementary courtesy to use the
official name of the country concerned, which is to my knowledge "Romania"
and not "Rumania".  Yes, yes, we all know the history of the controversy
over the name, at least among non-Romanians.  But the fact remains that
the name of the country is "Romania" and don't think much good will come
of trying to convince the American political world otherwise.

Udv.,
Be'la

Forwarded message:
>From   Mon Dec 11 22:47:43 1995
Message-Id: >
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 22:26:56 -0500
Reply-To: 
Sender: 
Precedence: bulk
From: Derek Poulin >
To: "ENVENG-L (Environmental Engineering List)" >,
        "" >
Subject: Fwd: Env. consultants in Romania
X-PH:  (Cornell Modified)
X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v2.5.03
X-Listprocessor-Version: 7.2(a) -- ListProcessor by CREN

Passing this along...

------- FORWARD, Original message follows -------

Date: Sunday, 10-Dec-95 06:23 PM

From: HXMOEHS0                 \ Internet:    )
To:   Environmental Issues in Central and Eastern Europe List \ Internet:
)

Subject: Env. consultants in Romania

I am looking for a local partner to team on environmental
          projects in Romania. The company (or individual) should have
          excellent knowledge of the Romanian environmental
          legislation and good English language skills. Experience
          working with the EBRD or international companies is
          preferred. Please contact Dr. Harald Mvhser:

          by e:mail:

          ;
          compuserve: 100031,3016

          by Fax:
          +49-6103-9389-99

          or directly by phone:
          +49-6103-9389-13

------- FORWARD, End of original message -------


--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
          Derek Poulin - 
           Cooperative Networking, Inc. (CONET)
51 Monroe Street, Suite 1509, Rockville, Maryland, USA 20850
          Phone:(301)309-1518  Fax:(301)309-2358
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Has the Rumanian state given back church property
to rumanian church authorities?

My private opinion is, that if the local community
built a school x hundred years ago, if it is still
used as a school, and the local community is happy
with the performance of the school, than it should
stay how it is, it's still belongs to them, doesn't
it?  If the building/land is not used  in the interest
of the local people, and it is their wish, than it
could be returned to the church to which it used to belong.
Education shouldn't be controlled by the churches, only
if that is the wish of the population now.  Even than, those
with different/no beliefs should have an equal chance to
find a non-religious local school.
All what churches achieve with their forcefully re-structured
education, is the division of a local community, instead of
it's integration around a local school.  I witnessed such
a fiasco in a hungarian village (Hungary) last summer.


>
> Dear fellow Hungary-listers,
>
> I just came back from Nagyvaarad (which explains my silence), where I was
> given a little booklet (hot off the press) published by the RMDSZ.  The
> title of the booklet is _Jussunkat Koeveteljuek_, or _We Demand Our
> Rights_.  In it is a list of church properties (with photographs) that
> have not been given back to the Hungarian Reformed, Catholic, Unitarian,
> and Greek Catholic churches.  Since 1989, NOT ONE piece of property has
> been returned to any of these churches that had been taken away by the
> Communists.
>
> Here is an excerpt, written by Csiha Kaalmaan, Bishop of the Reformed
> Church in Transylvania:
>
> In this book one can find a part of the nationalised goods of our
> Church.  In every line of it there is life, sacrifice, suffering and
> grief caused by an order which denied God and oppressed the people.  Our
> four and a half century-old schools which once were built [with] the
> donations of our congregations, and were always rebuilt after wars and
> world-wars, were taken away by the communist dicatorship.  [The] [s]ocial
> order changed five years ago but we didn't get back anything.  Our
> Church founded those institutions following God's Word.  It maintained and
> guarded more than five hundred elementary schools, sixteen high schools
> [besides] other institutions, hospitals and orphanages for more than four
> hundred years to serve everybody who needed them.  The school law of
> "Bethlen Gaabor" high school in Gyulafeheervaar, which later moved to
> Nagyenyed is 365 years old.
>         These schools were not built with the money given by the state!
> They were created by the generosity of the members of the Reformed
> Church...
>         These goods should be given back immediately.  We cry for justice
> in a new world which calls itself righteous, democratic and free.  By
> the restitution of our goods, which were robbed from us we want moral,
> financial, political and legal justice....
>
>
> ----------------
> jim doepp
>
>
>
> / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /
>
> James D. Doepp
> University of Miskolc (Hungary)
> Department of Economic Theory
>
>
> "...if pleasure and liking, pain and dislike, are formed in the
> soul on right lines before the age of understanding is reached,
> and when that age is attained, these feelings are in concord with
> understanding, thanks to early discipline in appropriate habits -
> this concord, regarded as a whole, is virtue.  But if you consider
> one factor in it, the rightly disciplined state of pleasures and
> pains whereby man, from his first beginnings on, will abhor what
> he should abhor and relish what he should relish - if you isolate
> this factor and call it education, you will be giving it its true name."
>
> Plato, Laws II
>
> / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

>
> *altogether* - I think is going a bit far.  But I agree, the wealthy can
> afford accountants and lawyers, and can also afford to have swiss bank
> accounts, etc. and are much more adept at avoiding taxes than we regular
> people.  The solution is not to tax them more, but to make the costs of
> avoiding taxation higher than the benefits these people would gain in
> avoiding taxation.  That is, if there must be progressive taxation, do
> not make it extreme.
>

It is only 40% in the UK, it still won't get paid.

>
> I don't quite understand why the distinction was made between earnings
> and profits (or returns on investment).  Why not just say the "bottom X
> percent"?
>

"Earnings" produces tax income for the state, returns on
investment not necessarily, see above.

> > > > Just to put right an other fallacy: most state benefits
> > > > are paid out to corprate business, not to social wellfare.
>
> If true (which I doubt very much - except in places like Japan) I do not
> see it as a positive thing.  The state should not prop up business.  But
> neither should it spend enormous amounts of money on promoting the
> welfare mentality and paternalism.
>

A lot of business - and probably the all system - would collapse
without the state handouts to business, even in the US, I suggest.

"Wellfare mentality" and state paternalism are meaningless terms,
if there are   100  unemployed   for each  job that actually
pays more than state benefits + travel expenses, (not
an amount one can lead a satisfactory life on!!!)
It is so annoying to hear from otherwise sensible people
this bs.  If you make people destitute, that will create
more job opportunities?????  Business expansion in undertakers
and mental nurses and food-kitchen staff????

Dear Colleagues,

In one day I have received 27 copies of letters you mailed to the President,
Newt Gingrich and others. I am sure that many more wrote without letting me
know. That to me means, that you are responding to plea for help of the
demonstrators in Sepsiszentgyorgy (Sfantu Gheorghe) the only way that
matters: BY ACTION. I would like to quote from one of the 27 letters. It came
from Elmer Kuber:

" Just returned from funeral in California and I just mailed letters to
Pres., VP and all members of foreign relations committee. I'm going to Ottawa
for a week on business. Could you send me the E-Mail addresses of the
Senators from PA (my home) and the Senators of Minnesota and North Dakota,
which are near by. Also newspapers of Phila, Minneapolis, Fargo and Grand
Forks, ND.."

If we all did as much Elmer Kuber, who between funerals and business trips is
still doing his part to defend the rights of his ancestors, there would be
more hope for the demonstrators, who are only demanding the return of what is
theirs and what has already been returned to the orthodox church.

As you know, we are asking our political leaders to write to President
Iliescu of Romania. We ask our President, Senators,  Congressman to support
the demands of the demonstrators in Sepsiszentgyorgy (Sfantu Gheorghe). In
order to minimize the demand on your time in sending fax or E-Mail letters to
your political representatives,
please find attached a letter format, which can be "individualized", by
inserting your own data in the lines which are typed in capital letters. For
your information I included only a few E-mail and fax numbers. If you need
more (for your local representatives, senators or media) please send me a
note.


LIST OF ADDRESSES:
President Bill Clinton:   fax: 202-456-2461
VP Al Gore:   fax:202-973-2600
Senator Robert Dole: fax: 202-228-1249
Congressman Newton Gingrich:  fax: 404-565-6398


THE INDIVIDUALIZED FORM LETTER:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
The Honorable ....

Dear ....

I am (A MEMBER, OFFICER, PRESIDENT ETC. OF XYZ ORGANIZATION, CHURCH,
COMPANY...). Similarly to the 1.5 million American voters of Hungarian
origin, I too
am concerned about the oppression of Hungarian minorities in Romania. I am
particularly concerned about the new language law which would destroy the 500
years old Hungarian school system in Transylvania. I am concerned that the
church  property of the Hungarian National Community, which was confiscated
by the Communists, has still not been returned. It includes 1,041 schools, 28
boarding schools, 20 teachers residences, 16 hospitals and orphanages, 126
priests' houses and 70 convents.

Dear Mr. (PRESIDENT,  SENATOR, CONGRESSMAN...) I would like to learn your
views on this matter and the steps you might take to help alleviate the
suffering of the Hungarian national community in Romania. There is no more
basic human right, than the right to speak one's mother tongue, to maintain
one's religion and culture and the civilized world should not allow that
basic right to be denied.

I know, that a letter from you to President Iliescu sent through the
Ambassador of Romania would help to change this situation.

Because the Hungarian-American voters would like to consider such issues as
this one in deciding which candidate to support in the 1996 elections, I
would like to ask for your permission to publish your response, if any, to
this letter, in the Hungarian-American press and media.

Respectfully yours,



YOUR NAME, ADDRESS,TITLE

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

OUR HELP IS NEEDED NOW, NOT AFTER WE HAVE FINISHED OUR CHRISTMAS SHOPPING!
 Please ask your priests, pastors, rabbis, scout and society leaders
to have a letter of this nature signed by all parishioners or participants
and fax them to your representatives. (If you do not have the fax numbers, I
can provide them).

Best regards and Happy Holydays: Bela Liptak

TO ALL:

This may be of some interest to the general readership of this
discussion group.


CSABA K. ZOLTANI



----- Forwarded message # 1:


Subject: job
Message-ID: >

Date:  12/10/1995   7:56 pm  (Sunday)
Subject:  Immediate Employment Opportunity for US Citizens as


          Hungarian-English Interpreters in Hungary

WANTED IMMEDIATELY: HUNGARIAN LINGUISTS

        BDM Federal, Inc. has a requirement to recruit for US Army forces
in Europe a large number of Hungarian interpreters and translators to
support the peacekeeping mission in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  These
linguists (and the BDM support team) will deploy on very short notice (no
later than December 24, 1995) to a military support base in Hungary.
Most of the linguists will be recruited in Hungary; however, we also need
six US citizens to fill those billets which the Army has said will require a
security clearance.  We expect to recruit these within the US.
Candidates must have native fluency in Hungarian and at least a working
knowledge of English.  Preference will be given to those with prior
military experience, or who have previously held a security clearance.  If
you are interested, please send e-mail to  stating:
your name, social security number, day and evening phone numbers,
date and place of birth, US passport number,  a summary of your
language and other skills, and whether or not you have any military
training.   Alternatively, phone BDM directly at 703-848-6218 and leave a
voice-mail message.  In either case we will contact you within 24 hours
to set up an appointment for an interview and screening.

        Successful candidates will be engaged as full time consultants
with a one year contract, with options to renew for up to a year.
Candidates must be in good physical condition since they must be able
(and willing) to work under the same arduous conditions and for the
same extended hours as their military counterparts.  A standard of
12-hour days (on call 24 hours a day), seven days a week is normal for
the military in such operations.  Furthermore, the linguists must set aside
personal political agendas during the performance of their duties.  In
addition to personal interviews, candidates will have to prove US
citizenship and provide detailed personal information in order to be
screened for a security clearance.  Candidates who clear the initial
screening then will be given a physical examination, including drug and
HIV testing, to determine their fitness to deploy.

        Pay and other benefits are as follows:

        Monthly consulting fee to be determined.  The consulting
agreement can be terminated by either party at any time.  The
Government, for example, may direct BDM to reduce the numbers of
linguists.
        An incentive bonus will be paid for the satisfactory completion of
each six month period.  The bonus will also be paid if the consultant is
terminated due to personnel cut backs at any time during the six month
period.
        Life, accident, and medical insurance at no cost to the consultant.
        Government-furnished food, lodging and medical care while in
Hungary.
        While linguists will be assigned directly to military units, a BDM
field office and a management team in Hungary will provide administrative
support.
        Government-furnished uniforms and other required equipment.
        All transportation: from the home of record to Washington, DC,
then to Hungary, and return to the home of record through Washington,
DC.

About  BDM:

        BDM Federal is the largest subsidiary of BDM International, Inc., a
professional and technical services corporation with over 7,000
employees at across the US and abroad.  While the principal orientation
of BDM Federal is in the area of information technology, we are often
asked to provide interpreters and translators to various government
agencies, including the US Department of Defense.  In December 1990,
the US Army asked our assistance in recruiting and deploying several
hundred Kuwaiti students as linguists for Operation Desert Storm.  In
December, 1992, the US Army asked us to recruit and manage 100
Somali linguists to accompany US forces providing humanitarian relief in
Somalia. In September 1994, we recruited and managed over 100
Haitian-Creole linguists to assist US forces providing humanitarian relief
to Haitian refugees in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.  For more about
information about BDM see the BDM home page: http://www.bdm.com/

In his response to Eva Durant, James Doepp wrote:

>The state should not prop up business.  But
>neither should it spend enormous amounts of money on promoting the
>welfare mentality and paternalism.

James.  I know we're living on different continents but what you write makes
it sound as if we're living on different planets.  I strongly agree with
your first sentence that 'the state should not prop up business'.  But look
around you.  It does nothing but.

Business needs the state so that money can be taxed back from the workers so
that an infrastructure, which mainly serves business, can be developed.

Since you're an educator, let's look at schools.

Schools are built by taxpayers money that is collected by the state.  But do
schools serve the taxpayer or business interests?    I say it serves
business more.  You may argue that it serves both, but our interests are not
identical.  A highly educated workforce means bigger profits these days.
And what are people highly educated in?  The humanities?  Latin?  Culture?
Art?  Not bloody likely!!  There are few, if any, jobs in those areas these
days.  Most 'smart' students are studying science, engineering, chemistry
and the like.  That's where the jobs are.

But in whose interest is it to study the maths and sciences?  In a word,
business.  This way, people pool their resources so that they can study so
that they get a good job.  People are willing to train themselves so that
business dosen't have to.  This saves business billions since they don't
have to train or educate their workforce.

Would you say that the above shows how government serves business?

I find your second sentence also troubling because there seems to be more
corporate welfare dependence then I think you're prepared to acknowledge.
Corporate welfare bums are more of a drain on our tax dollars then poor
people on welfare will ever be.  Yet, look at what's happening to the poor.
In the mid to late sixties, in the United States, the government declared a
'war on poverty'.  Since Regan, Bush and Gingrich the government has
declared a 'war on the poor'.

A lot of people in Hungary now realize that the old system did not meet all
their needs.  They are now discovering that the new system will meet even
less.

How does a fair, progressive, no-loopholes for the wealthy, tax system sound
to you?

Joe Szalai

> >
> > I would suggest that the credibility of protests from Americans of Hungaria
n
> > origin is likely to be higher if we have the elementary courtesy to use the
> > official name of the country concerned, which is to my knowledge "Romania"
> > and not "Rumania".  Yes, yes, we all know the history of the controversy
> > over the name, at least among non-Romanians.  But the fact remains that
> > the name of the country is "Romania" and don't think much good will come
> > of trying to convince the American political world otherwise.
> >
>
> I can understand using the "official" spelling of Rumania for purposes of
> lobbying, and in fact those form letters, courtesy of Mr. Liptak used the
> official spelling throughout.  But does this mean we must use the
> official (but wrong) spelling in everyday life?  I think you pay Ceaucescu
> and his successors too great an honour.
>
> jim doepp
>
> PS  My _Penguin Atlas of World History_ (1978) spells it Roumania.  The
> French spell it Roumanie.


Jim, get a newer atlas :-) I will be happy to provide you one, or pick up
a cheap iskola/gimzium atlasz sold in any bookstore in Hungary.

OK, I will show the ignorance and the pro-Romania bias (when you love two
countries like these two, it ain't easy). What is wrong with the spelling
Romania? Currently in Romaneste, it is Roma(with a hat)nia
What gives? I need the education on this one and I am sure this list will
provide it.

Darren Purcell
the always learning geographer, with much to still learn

W. Batkay on 12 December reminds the readership about the "elementary
courtesy" to use the official name of the country concerned. I think
he makes a valid point. But then, should names like Munich or even
Hungary be banned? After all Bavarians refer to their fair city as
Muenchen and Hungarians call their country Magyarorszag. But then, with
tongue in cheek, there are more Roma (gypsies) in Romania than direct
descendants of Dacians so that the spelling of Romania may have some
validity.

Magritte, the famous Belgian painter had it right. His paintings of
common objects have titles with which we associate other objects. It
is all in the eyes of the beholder.

CSABA K. ZOLTANI

On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Csaba Zoltani (ASHPC/CTD) wrote:

> W. Batkay on 12 December reminds the readership about the "elementary
> courtesy" to use the official name of the country concerned. I think
> he makes a valid point. But then, should names like Munich or even
> Hungary be banned? After all Bavarians refer to their fair city as
> Muenchen and Hungarians call their country Magyarorszag. But then, with
> tongue in cheek, there are more Roma (gypsies) in Romania than direct
> descendants of Dacians so that the spelling of Romania may have some
> validity.
>

Until recently, Rumanian was the received spelling in American English.
Even the Dictionar Roman-Englez published by Editura Stiintifica in
Bucharest (1965) gives Rumania, Rumanian as the only English choices for
the words. But my current Webster's, which is after all a standard,
prefers Romania, while allowing Rumania. The U.S. Postal Service, which
used to list the country as Rumania, now uses Romania exclusively.

Tempora mutantur. Whether the change is to accommodate Romanian
sensibilities or not, it has in fact taken place; and by now we have a
somewhat comical state of affairs, in which if we encounter the spelling
Rumania(n), it's a good bet that the author is a Hungarian writing in
English. Such usage may therefore be counterproductive, because it will
be perceived as provocative and militant.

Romanian sensibilities are very strong in this connection. When the
latest spelling reform was implemented, the unrounded high back vowel,
which had been written with two different characters, i^ and a^, was to
be represented exclusively by i^; in effect, the a^ was eliminated. But
it was retained in the single root, Roma^nia, roma^n (actually:
reinstated), because, it was felt, romi^n would not properly show the
word's Roman etymology.

I have no problem in making the switch: in Hungarian, after all, we have
always written roma:n, Roma:nia.

Louis J. Elteto
Portland State University

On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Eva Durant wrote:

> My private opinion is, that if the local community
> built a school x hundred years ago, if it is still
> used as a school, and the local community is happy
> with the performance of the school, than it should
> stay how it is, it's still belongs to them, doesn't
> it?  If the building/land is not used  in the interest
> of the local people, and it is their wish, than it
> could be returned to the church to which it used to belong.
> Education shouldn't be controlled by the churches, only
> if that is the wish of the population now.  Even than, those
> with different/no beliefs should have an equal chance to
> find a non-religious local school.
> All what churches achieve with their forcefully re-structured
> education, is the division of a local community, instead of
> it's integration around a local school.  I witnessed such
> a fiasco in a hungarian village (Hungary) last summer.
> 

As long as Romania continues to have an absolutely centralized public
education system, in which everything is prescribed by the Ministerul
Invatamentului in Bucharest, the only hope of some freedom for Hungarian
education is in church-administered systems, which can also rely on
outside denominational support. To argue against the churches in Romania
is to argue against the interests of the Hungarian minority, and for the
interests of the unitary Romanian state. The fiasco Eva Durant refers to
proves only that there are bigots and idiots aplenty in Hungary, churched
and unchurched.

Louis J. Elteto
Portland State University

About taxes, Jim Doepp wrote:

>Fair and progressive, I think, are not compatible.

Neither did Maggie Thatcher who wanted to introduce the hated poll tax.
You're not in that school of thought, are you?

Joe

>
> The problem is that in English Rumania was always (in its short
> history as a nation) written with a
> "u" or an "ou".  But Ceaucescu wanted to re-write history - and since as
> everybody knows the Romanians are descendents of the Romans, and we
> don't say Rumans or Roumans - he asked the international press to spell
> it Romania.  And they complied.  The question is, should we start calling
> a nation by another name, simply because a mad dictator has a theory
> about his countries origins?
>
> jim

Good point, in that case, let me try and change my final exam to
Magyarorszag and see what the students do. Why not call it Romania? I
have seen both sides of the anhtropological and historical arguments of
who was there first, werer the Romans there, did they intermix with
Dacians, etc. Neither side has been able to convince me that there was
aflourishing Roman culture but nor have I bought Hungarian claims to the
contrary.

Romania doesn't hurt anyone and at least makes it clear who we are
writing about to the larger public (not that my students would knwo the
difference...the complain if they might have to know how to spell a
capital)

Darren Purcell

>
> I heard that the Roumanian government has banned the use of the word
> Roma, because it sounds too much like Romania.
>
> jim


I have always heard the word tsigane in Bucaresti

Darren

I received a very interesting new book from a fellow interneter. The author
is Andor Lazar (1882-1971), minister of justice between 1931 and 1938. The
book is his detailed memoirs. Mr. Lazar seems to have had a very good memory
and although in 1941 he was not in office, he was still close to some of the
government officials. That is what he has to write about the atrocities at
Novi Sad.

"Meg a magyar kormany sem tudott az ottani hatosagokkal telefonkapcsolatot
kapni, hogy tudomast nyerjen arrol, mi tortenik Ujvideken. A foispan is el
volt vagva Budapesttol, s en kozvetlenul Keresztes-Fischer belugyminisztertol
hallottam, hogy nem kepes telefonon kapcsolatot kapni a varossal. Emlekszem
ra, hogy feljott hozzam Popovich, Bacs megyei kepviselo es meg egy-ket
politikus, akik a magyar-szerb megbekelesert kuzdottek es ketsegbeesetten
mondtak, mi tortenik Ujvideken. Szinte rimankodtak, hogy tegyek valamit en is
a kormanynal ennek a remuralomnak a megszuntetese erdekeben. Amit tehettem,
megtettem, s tudom, hogy a belugyminiszter minden energiajaval igyekezett
veget vetni a szegyenteljes allapotnak." (Andor Lazar, Visszaemlekezeseim,
pp. 306-307.)

[Novi Sad was completely cut off from Budapest and the Hungarian government
was unable to get even telephone connection. A parliamentary representative
from Bacs county begged Andor Lazar to intervene. He did what he could and
the minister of interior (Keresztes-Fischer) tried everything in his power to
put an end to this shameful situation.]

It is very interesting to compare Lazar's (and, let me add, American
Ambassador Montgomery's) description of these events with the official
Hungarian history published by the Historical Institute of the Academy in
1976. Both Lazar and Montgomery state that the atrocities were ordered by the
Germans. The four officers, General Feketehalmy-Czeydner, Major Grassy,
Colonel Deak, and Gendarme Captain Zo:ldy, were convicted and sentenced to
death at the end of 1943. But the Germans helped them to escape to Germany in
January 1944 from where they returned during the Szalasi period as
high-ranking SS officers. The official Hungarian history from 1976 gives a
very different version of these events. The authors claim that proceedings
against the officers were suspended on August 13, 1942 at the direct orders
of Miklos Horthy. Eventually, however, the government decided to bring the
chief organizers to justice. And now let me quote in the original: "1943.
december 14-en kezdte meg a vezerkari fonok kulonbirosaga az ugy targyalasat;
a Szombathelyi engedelyevel szabadlabon vedekezo vadlottak azonban . . .
1944. januar kozepen megszoktek, es Albrecht foherceg hatarmenti birtokanak
alkalmazottai segitsegevel Nemetorszagba tavoztak. Ott az SS birodalmi
vezere, Himmler vette oket partfogasaba." [A special court of the
chief-of-staff's office began proceedings on December 14, 1943 but the
accused officers, who had been free all through the proceedings thanks to
Chief-of-Staff Szombathelyi, escaped in the middle of January and with the
help of the employees of Archduke Albrecht's estate, lying close to the
border, they managed to escape to Germany where Himmler took them under his
wings.]

Well, there are problems here, aren't there? First, the official history of
Hungary doesn't mention sentencing. As if the four officers in the middle of
the court case simply didn't show up one day in court. They vanished. Not
even escaped because after all they didn't need to escape. It was enough for
them to walk to a railroad station or get somebody to drive them to the
border, where Archduke Albrecht's employees helped them across the border.
Unfortunately, I have exhausted my sources on the topic and I can't ascertain
the truth concerning (1) the death sentences; (2) the mode of escape; and (3)
the German involvement or its lack thereof. Any help is greatly appreciated.
My curiosity is aroused!

Eva Balogh

>
> On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, DARREN E PURCELL wrote:
>
> >
> > Good point, in that case, let me try and change my final exam to
> > Magyarorszag and see what the students do. Why not call it Romania? I
>
> I don't quite follow you.  But suppose some extremist dictator were to
Sorry, I intended to start another line, not to call Hungary Romania.
Bocs !!!

> that all English speakers should call Hungarians Magyars and the country
> country of the Magyars.  Should the whole English-speaking world comply?
>
> Now suppose that the origin of the Magyars is doubtful to say the least,
> and in fact many would argue the people living in Hungary today were not
> Magyars.   In this case, by calling the people Magyars, not only are we
> bending over backwards to a dictators whims, but we might be also in
> complicity with his desire to rewrite history.
>
> jim
>
Jim, all history is written by thos ewho are in power, and is not an
absolute. With a country that has less than 200 years of nationality and
no democratic traditions, justifying history through nomenclature is
important.

WHo knows, 100 years from now,t he spelling may change again. ;-) At the
rate of democracy proceeding in Romania, it may take less than 50 years
for the next name change.

Darren

For what it's worth, here's my two bytes.

Common courtesy would suggest that we call peoples and nations by the name
that they want to be called.

Joe Szalai

In article >, Louis
Elteto > writes:
 To argue against the churches in Romania
>is to argue against the interests of the Hungarian minority, and for the
>interests of the unitary Romanian state.
>Louis J. Elteto

Why, why am I not surprised to see this thread was aimed against the unitary
Romanian state? As a Romanian, I often let myself dreaming about the
long awaited Romanian-Hungarian reconciliation; and then I see a new
campaign directed by Liptak Bela against my country, and the only thing
one might allow is that even the Chinese wall wouldn't be enought to
separate these neighbouring countries.

In article >, Louis
Elteto > writes:
>Romanian sensibilities are very strong in this connection. When the
>latest spelling reform was implemented, the unrounded high back vowel,
>which had been written with two different characters, i^ and a^, was to
>be represented exclusively by i^; in effect, the a^ was eliminated. But
>it was retained in the single root, Roma^nia, roma^n (actually:
>reinstated), because, it was felt, romi^n would not properly show the
>word's Roman etymology.

The reform you mean was back in the 60s, and since 93 or so is no longer
valid.

Constantin Donea

Bravo and thanks to Louis Elteto for his sober and balanced review of the
issue of the names Rumania/Romania in English.  The basic point remains the
same--to avoid offending sensibilities, not in the interests of Eastern
European pc, but in the interests of having our voices of protest at Romanian
policy heard and acted on, not rejected out of hand.

Udv.
Be'la

On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, W. BATKAY wrote:

> Thanks to Bela Liptak and Jim Doepp for the information about the continu-
> ing failure of the Romanian government to restore assets seized by the
> former Communist governments, and about continuing attempts to impose a
> restrictive language law.
>
> I would suggest that the credibility of protests from Americans of Hungarian
> origin is likely to be higher if we have the elementary courtesy to use the
> official name of the country concerned, which is to my knowledge "Romania"
> and not "Rumania".  Yes, yes, we all know the history of the controversy
> over the name, at least among non-Romanians.  But the fact remains that
> the name of the country is "Romania" and don't think much good will come
> of trying to convince the American political world otherwise.
>

I can understand using the "official" spelling of Rumania for purposes of
lobbying, and in fact those form letters, courtesy of Mr. Liptak used the
official spelling throughout.  But does this mean we must use the
official (but wrong) spelling in everyday life?  I think you pay Ceaucescu
and his successors too great an honour.

jim doepp

PS  My _Penguin Atlas of World History_ (1978) spells it Roumania.  The
French spell it Roumanie.




/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

James D. Doepp
University of Miskolc (Hungary)
Department of Economic Theory


"...if pleasure and liking, pain and dislike, are formed in the
soul on right lines before the age of understanding is reached,
and when that age is attained, these feelings are in concord with
understanding, thanks to early discipline in appropriate habits -
this concord, regarded as a whole, is virtue.  But if you consider
one factor in it, the rightly disciplined state of pleasures and
pains whereby man, from his first beginnings on, will abhor what
he should abhor and relish what he should relish - if you isolate
this factor and call it education, you will be giving it its true name."

Plato, Laws II

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

Here is my opinion about what Ms. Durant writes about taxes:

On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, Eva Durant wrote:

> >
> > On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Eva Durant wrote:
> >
> > > about taxes: if you are in the top scale, you can
> > > afford a few accountants and tax-specialists to tell you
> > > how to avoid it altogether...

*altogether* - I think is going a bit far.  But I agree, the wealthy can
afford accountants and lawyers, and can also afford to have swiss bank
accounts, etc. and are much more adept at avoiding taxes than we regular
people.  The solution is not to tax them more, but to make the costs of
avoiding taxation higher than the benefits these people would gain in
avoiding taxation.  That is, if there must be progressive taxation, do
not make it extreme.

 Check it out: the income
> > > of the state from income-tax is 90% or more from
> > > those, whos money is taxed as they earn.

I don't quite understand why the distinction was made between earnings
and profits (or returns on investment).  Why not just say the "bottom X
percent"?

> > > Just to put right an other fallacy: most state benefits
> > > are paid out to corprate business, not to social wellfare.

If true (which I doubt very much - except in places like Japan) I do not
see it as a positive thing.  The state should not prop up business.  But
neither should it spend enormous amounts of money on promoting the
welfare mentality and paternalism.

> > > I have no data , but you are free to prove me wrong.
> > > (I've seen supporting statistics on TV)
> > > 
> >
> > Eva, your terminology is marxist, but you sound more and more like a
> > supply-sider all along:->
> >
> > jim
> >
>
> So I know your opinion about me, what is your opinion on what I say
> about taxes?
> 
>

I'm forwarding this message from the Mideur-l newsgroup, with the
question:  What does it mean (if anything) for Hungary?


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 23:37:06 PST
From: Roman Korzan >
To: Multiple recipients of list MIDEUR-L >
Subject: If True, Its Yalta II

-------------------------------------
Name: Roman Korzan
E-mail: 
-------------------------------------
ARTICLE BY FORMER US GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL CREATES STIR IN WASHINGTON--IF
TRUE, IT'S YALTA II FOR POLAND
*****************************************************************************
* ***********************
This message posted by: The Polish American Committee/FPA
8 December 1995
Contact: Dale Denda fax/703-370-0462

******Summary****************************************************************
* *******************
Peter Rodman, former Deputy Assistant for National Security to President
George Bush, states that President Clinton has agreed to trade NATO security
guarantees to Poland for Russian military participation in Balkan
peacekeeping operations.

Citing unnamed, official US & Russian sources, Mr Rodman characterizes the
deal as a "stunningly duplicitous turn" in US policy which contradicts the
President's repeated assurances that alliance expansion is moving forward.
 Clinton administration officials regularly refer to the limited, yet
costly, military exchanges that constitute the Partnership for Peace program
as a measure of "progress" for alliance expansion.

Mr Rodman's allegations (which are independently supported in a 29 Nov
Reuters wire news service report) appear in an article in the 25 Dec 95
issue of NATIONAL REVIEW, where he is Senior Editor.  An advance copy was
made available to the Committee.

Background
Given that it is well known that Russia desires a presence in the Balkans in
order to bolster Serb interests, the "deal" to which Mr Rodman refers may in
fact have more to do with the terms to which the US & Russia agreed
regarding deployment of troops.  Specifically, the Russians will not be
positioned exclusively in Serb territories, as they wanted, and will be
under some form of NATO command and control structure.  Both US-imposed
conditions were categorically rejected by the Russians--until a few weeks
ago.

If proven true, the tacit (and secret) agreement would be only the latest
signal concerning the Clinton administration's real position on NATO
expansion.  State Department pronouncements dating from Jan 1995 regarding a
"go slow" approach on expansion, supported a few months later by the
startling about-face (under US pressure) on the part of German Chancellor
Helmut Kohl who previously expressed strong support for "early" alliance
extension of security guarantees, and the Clinton administration's political
hard-ball tactics directed against the NATO Participation Act in the US
Congress, all indicate a consistent position held by President Clinton:
deferral of the decision on guaranteeing the future of democracy in Central
Europe.

Polish Americans have 11 months in which to prepare a response to this
latest version of Yalta.  Beyond the charge made in NATIONAL REVIEW--which
is credible enough--it is now fairly clear that should this president be
returned to the White House for a second term, Poland will be left on her
own to finish the revolution she started in 1989.  And it is only because of
that revolution, which brought down the Berlin Wall and Americans "back
home", that we can even dream about balancing the trillion dollar budget of
our nation's government.  Poland deserves better than this for her gift of
the century to the American people.

On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Eva Durant wrote:

> Has the Rumanian state given back church property
> to rumanian church authorities?
>
> My private opinion is, that if the local community
> built a school x hundred years ago, if it is still
> used as a school, and the local community is happy
> with the performance of the school, than it should
> stay how it is, it's still belongs to them, doesn't
> it?  If the building/land is not used  in the interest
> of the local people, and it is their wish, than it
> could be returned to the church to which it used to belong.
> Education shouldn't be controlled by the churches, only
> if that is the wish of the population now.  Even than, those
> with different/no beliefs should have an equal chance to
> find a non-religious local school.
> All what churches achieve with their forcefully re-structured
> education, is the division of a local community, instead of
> it's integration around a local school.  I witnessed such
> a fiasco in a hungarian village (Hungary) last summer.
> 
>


Ms. Durant seems to have a peculiar (if democratic) view of justice.  If
a Person or Group of Persons violates the property rights of an
individual or group of individuals, and the Majority of the population
considers the new distribution of property to their advantage, then the
property should not be given back to its original owner.

We could perhaps reorganise the court system, on the basis of this
theory.  Whenever there is a theft, after the guilt has been determined,
there should be a referendum.  If the population thinks the accused has
used his property in a better way than the original owner, then he is set
free and does not have to return the said property.

jim doepp



/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

James D. Doepp
University of Miskolc (Hungary)
Department of Economic Theory


"...if pleasure and liking, pain and dislike, are formed in the
soul on right lines before the age of understanding is reached,
and when that age is attained, these feelings are in concord with
understanding, thanks to early discipline in appropriate habits -
this concord, regarded as a whole, is virtue.  But if you consider
one factor in it, the rightly disciplined state of pleasures and
pains whereby man, from his first beginnings on, will abhor what
he should abhor and relish what he should relish - if you isolate
this factor and call it education, you will be giving it its true name."

Plato, Laws II

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, DARREN E PURCELL wrote:

> >
> > PS  My _Penguin Atlas of World History_ (1978) spells it Roumania.  The
> > French spell it Roumanie.
>
>
> Jim, get a newer atlas :-) I will be happy to provide you one, or pick up
> a cheap iskola/gimzium atlasz sold in any bookstore in Hungary.
>
> OK, I will show the ignorance and the pro-Romania bias (when you love two
> countries like these two, it ain't easy). What is wrong with the spelling
> Romania? Currently in Romaneste, it is Roma(with a hat)nia
> What gives? I need the education on this one and I am sure this list will
> provide it.
>

The problem is that in English Rumania was always (in its short
history as a nation) written with a
"u" or an "ou".  But Ceaucescu wanted to re-write history - and since as
everybody knows the Romanians are descendents of the Romans, and we
don't say Rumans or Roumans - he asked the international press to spell
it Romania.  And they complied.  The question is, should we start calling
a nation by another name, simply because a mad dictator has a theory
about his countries origins?

jim

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

James D. Doepp
University of Miskolc (Hungary)
Department of Economic Theory


"...if pleasure and liking, pain and dislike, are formed in the
soul on right lines before the age of understanding is reached,
and when that age is attained, these feelings are in concord with
understanding, thanks to early discipline in appropriate habits -
this concord, regarded as a whole, is virtue.  But if you consider
one factor in it, the rightly disciplined state of pleasures and
pains whereby man, from his first beginnings on, will abhor what
he should abhor and relish what he should relish - if you isolate
this factor and call it education, you will be giving it its true name."

Plato, Laws II

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Joe Szalai wrote:

> In his response to Eva Durant, James Doepp wrote:
>
> >The state should not prop up business.  But
> >neither should it spend enormous amounts of money on promoting the
> >welfare mentality and paternalism.
>
> James.  I know we're living on different continents but what you write makes
> it sound as if we're living on different planets.  I strongly agree with
> your first sentence that 'the state should not prop up business'.  But look
> around you.  It does nothing but.

I have looked around me.  I see nothing but ruins.  Ruins propped up by
even bigger ruins.

>
> Business needs the state so that money can be taxed back from the workers so
> that an infrastructure, which mainly serves business, can be developed.
>

Our differences arise, I'm afraid, by two different and opposing concepts
of the phrase 'prop up.'  When you say 'prop up' you seem to say simply
that business cannot exist without government.  I agree, but I don't call
this 'propping up' business.  What I mean when I refer to the government
propping up business is the use of protectionism, subsidies, etc.

Yes, government has an enormous role in creating a proper institutional
environment for business to take place.  That is, to protect the right of
contract, property rights; there is banking law, corporate law,
bankruptcy law...  These are not 'props' for business, though.  These are
natural developments that have evolved thoughout history, with the
development of trade, commerce, industry, etc.

>
> How does a fair, progressive, no-loopholes for the wealthy, tax system sound
> to you?

Fair and progressive, I think, are not compatible.


jim


/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

James D. Doepp
University of Miskolc (Hungary)
Department of Economic Theory


"...if pleasure and liking, pain and dislike, are formed in the
soul on right lines before the age of understanding is reached,
and when that age is attained, these feelings are in concord with
understanding, thanks to early discipline in appropriate habits -
this concord, regarded as a whole, is virtue.  But if you consider
one factor in it, the rightly disciplined state of pleasures and
pains whereby man, from his first beginnings on, will abhor what
he should abhor and relish what he should relish - if you isolate
this factor and call it education, you will be giving it its true name."

Plato, Laws II

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Csaba Zoltani (ASHPC/CTD) wrote:

> Muenchen and Hungarians call their country Magyarorszag. But then, with
> tongue in cheek, there are more Roma (gypsies) in Romania than direct
> descendants of Dacians so that the spelling of Romania may have some
> validity.
>

I heard that the Roumanian government has banned the use of the word
Roma, because it sounds too much like Romania.

jim


/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

James D. Doepp
University of Miskolc (Hungary)
Department of Economic Theory


"...if pleasure and liking, pain and dislike, are formed in the
soul on right lines before the age of understanding is reached,
and when that age is attained, these feelings are in concord with
understanding, thanks to early discipline in appropriate habits -
this concord, regarded as a whole, is virtue.  But if you consider
one factor in it, the rightly disciplined state of pleasures and
pains whereby man, from his first beginnings on, will abhor what
he should abhor and relish what he should relish - if you isolate
this factor and call it education, you will be giving it its true name."

Plato, Laws II

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, DARREN E PURCELL wrote:

>
> Good point, in that case, let me try and change my final exam to
> Magyarorszag and see what the students do. Why not call it Romania? I

I don't quite follow you.  But suppose some extremist dictator were to
come into power in Hungary, and decided
that all English speakers should call Hungarians Magyars and the country
country of the Magyars.  Should the whole English-speaking world comply?

Now suppose that the origin of the Magyars is doubtful to say the least,
and in fact many would argue the people living in Hungary today were not
Magyars.   In this case, by calling the people Magyars, not only are we
bending over backwards to a dictators whims, but we might be also in
complicity with his desire to rewrite history.

jim



/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

James D. Doepp
University of Miskolc (Hungary)
Department of Economic Theory


"...if pleasure and liking, pain and dislike, are formed in the
soul on right lines before the age of understanding is reached,
and when that age is attained, these feelings are in concord with
understanding, thanks to early discipline in appropriate habits -
this concord, regarded as a whole, is virtue.  But if you consider
one factor in it, the rightly disciplined state of pleasures and
pains whereby man, from his first beginnings on, will abhor what
he should abhor and relish what he should relish - if you isolate
this factor and call it education, you will be giving it its true name."

Plato, Laws II

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, DARREN E PURCELL wrote:

> >
> > I heard that the Roumanian government has banned the use of the word
> > Roma, because it sounds too much like Romania.
> >
> > jim
>
>
> I have always heard the word tsigane in Bucaresti
>
> Darren
>

Yes, and they are Ciganyok in Budapest.  But in Romany they are the
Romas.  And Romany knows no borders.

jim