Istvan Lippai > wrote:

>Nem is szabad, mert a zsidok tomeges gyilkolasa nagyon
>elvetemedett dolog volt.  Akkor gurulok be amikor valaki
>azt akarja magyarazni, hogy ebben magyaroknak jelentos
>reszuk volt.
>Fiatal voltam, de azert lattam volna ha a magyarok
>gyilkoltak volna zsidokat.
>


2. INSTALLMENT:

Before I continue, let me finish the story about the events
in the hunting lodge:
During late August or September 1944, in that forest in the
Carpatians, there was some small-scale ukrain partisan
activity. After one of the shooting matches between them and
an army patrol, this lodge was discovered. The partizans
took the two Poles, but refused to take the Jewish family
with them. The family was killed, presumably in a
concentration camp. The two Poles also disappeared,
presumably killed later by the ukrain partisans.
We also moved and my Mother and I lived on an East-hungarian
farm till the front moved through. My father was doing
another of his short army-stints on the home-front, than
went AWOL mid-october. The fightings passed over us within
days or weeks.
Notwithstanding that there were a few good man, there also
were a few bad men. Yes, the gendarmerie (Mounted Police)
was ordered to assist the German authorities to "solve the
Jewish-problem". They participated, most passively, few
actively and even brutally. That time none of them, not even
the higher brass knew, that the Jews were taken into
deathcamps. (The first eyewitness telling the real story of
the "final solution" in the concentration camps to the
Hungarian Government, was a hungarian jew deported from
Slovakia to a deathcamp, and somehow escaped, and contacted
the Hungarian Authorities in May and his testimonial was
taken in May or June only. The copy of his testimony was
passed to the English after the investigation closed.
[Publicly England and her Allies still deny their knowledge
of the existence of these camps at that time.] The
deportations from Hungary were halted, unfortunately too
late for those living in the provinces. The further
deportation of the Jews had to wait until the nazi
[Arrow-cross] putch in october.)
Yes, we have to admit, that the Arrocross (the party of the
Hungarian National Socialists), similarly to their French or
even Dutch nazi brethren actively killed Jews, and thank
God, ours were stupid enough, to accept false documents
manufactured in non-jewish Hungarian homes, parish
rectories, the Swedish and the Spanish Embassys.
Yes, Hungarians, along with all nations on the continent
under German rule murdered Jews.
There is no sense or reason denying it.
Does it make Hungary worse than the other nations? No.
Should we be ashamed? Yes.
Should we remember? Yes.

I must say, that these, contained in these two Installments,
are not direct responses to either Agi or to Istvan. Agi is
not a magyar-gyulolo on the extreme left, and Istvan is not
a zsidogyulolo antisemite from the extreme right. As I know
them by their contributions to these groups, they are honest
and good people, who are hurting, and their hurt are
different, and their view of the world and of each other are
different -- as I am different with different view,
different experiences ad different temperament. They just
have given me an opportunity to have my say to something
which often surfaces and stirs (understandably) emotions,
awakens painful memories.

 (Dominus) wrote:

 (aheringer) wrote:

>  Akkor jottek a nemetek es nyilasok es hajtottak oket harcolni
>>tovabbra is.  A magyar jellem nem szereti se a fasisztakat se a
>>kommunistakat
>
1-st INSTALLMENT:
In an earlier message, quite recklessly, I wrote: "How
shocking, everybody is right!" Maybe, it's true. Eccept that
I was wrong! We, hungarians, maybe one of the most genial
people on earth, have an urgent tendency to negate it, and
jump into our own mouth foot first.
Let me, as an introduction to tell you, that my father
belonged to the radical wing of the Smallholders Party,
represented by Eckhardt T. and B. Zsilinszky E.,  whom we
knew well. While, admittedly, neither of them were
philo-semites during their earlier years, both  opposed
Hungary's gravitation into German orbit, the country's
involvement in the War, the anti-jewish legislations, etc.
My father have put up and hide a large Jewish family in the
late spring of 1944 in a small hunting-shack in the forests
near Ungvar. This shack, since late March, already sheltered
two Polish Armi-officers, who crossed the borders in 1939
and lived in town known and unmolested by anyone for four
years and some. And my father wasn't the only one. Many-many
people gave shelter, hiding place, or just kept their mouth
shut if if they knew about people in hiding. With all we
FACTUALLY know, certainly the French, or, possibly even the
Dutch record is not better. Considering, that Hungary was
occupied only in March 1944,  when armed resistance against
the Nazis begun, --  the French could and did built their
Resistance Movement since 1939, after they became occupied.
Given this, there were very few "maquisard" in France.
"Hisz bunosok vagyunk mi, akar a tobbi nep,.." wrote Radnoti
Miklos in 1944, the greatest Hungarian poet (a Jew by birth)
of that time, who suffered martirdom later the same year by
the hands of nazi soldiers, driven (in a forced-labor
brigade) towards Austria in forced-march. Let me continue
with the next line: "s tudjuk miben vetkeztunk, mikor, hol
es mikep, / de elnek dolgozok itt, koltok is buntelen, / es
csecsszopok..." (I translate it to you:
"Yes, we are sinners, as other nations are,
and we know how we sinned, where, when and why,
but working people lives here, and poets, without sins,
and suckling babys... )
I think, I understand your pain, you probably lost
family-members, friends. One of my grandfathers in a small
town, not far from Budapest, was taken away on march 21.
1944, months before the Jews were herded in ghettos. He
never came back, and we don't know how and where he died.
My best friend and neighbour in Ungvar, a little Jewish
girl, also was killed, and many others I knew. My father
narrowly avoided capture after Oct. 15, 1944 by the Gestapo.
He was beaten by Rakosi's AVO after the war. After my escape
in January 1956 he also was taken and beaten. I was slapped
around in Jaszai Mari ter in early 1953 for being a
clerical-reactionary before I was let go. Yet I don't blame
all the hungarians and those who lean A BIT either to the
right or to the left.
On the other hand I blame the scroundlers and crooks in the
Government of Canada, whose Prime Minister felt that one Jew
is too many to let in the country during and after the war;
where a nazi youth who demonstrated with swastica on his arm
(that's how all good naci started) and later was appointed a
Leutenant Governor of a Province; in the Swiss Government,
which turned Jews back to their death, when they sought
refuge at the Swiss border; the political and military
leadership of the Soviets, whos Red Army stopped just a few
miles away and waited for days until the Warsaw-revolt was
massacred by the SS; the United Nations and the Western
Governments, who cowardly abandoned us when Hruschew and the
Politburo considered to let Hungary go in 1956.
J'accuse! I indict!

Please, read further in the following posting.

If I ramble, I apologize. But bear with me....

The health-care data I "threw" at the readership of this list were mostly
red herrings.

Several years ago a book was published in the US with the title: "Places
Rated Almanac." In this book several hundred metro areas in the US were
ranked according to some VERY persuasive and all-inclusive appearing
criteria: climate & terrain, housing, health care & environment, crime,
transportation, education, the arts, recreation, economics, etc. The top 10
ranked cities were as follows:

 1.  Pittsburgh
 2.  Boston
 3.  Raleigh-Durham
 4.  Philadelphia
 5.  San Francisco
 6.  Nassau-Suffolk
 7.  Louisville
 8.  St. Louis
 9.  Rochester
10. Norwalk

I will not name names, lest I incur the wrath of 20 million people, but
many of these cities are simply "nice places to visit, but I wouldn't want
to live there." Others of the top 25 are hellholes. (Oh, yes, Sam is indeed
lucky: he lives in one of the truly best places in the US).

What was wrong? I had the precipitation data, the number of hours I could
count having my air conditioner on, the number of burglaries, bowling
alleys, drinking saloons, miles of freeways, traffic conditions, size of
airports, golf courses, museums, size of the symphony, etc. etc. ad nauseam.

Yet the numbers didn't jibe with my impressions or with the folks' whom I
have talked to over the years. Mind you, I have visited dozens of metro
areas during my many years of conferencing, spending at least 10 days in each.

I remember one particular course in statistics, among the many I had to
take in graduate school, that spend a lot of time showing us how one can
LIE with statistics. I won't even address the veracity of the collectors of
data, or that of the agencies that analyze them. Neither will I discuss the
methods used for analysis.


[soap box on]

As a clinician, if I were to recommend to a country such as Hungary (as if
my opinion mattered) which system of health care to choose, I would, for
one, propose to submit each system (extant) to a test:
     to which country's system would you go if you were, say: 20, 30, 40,
60, &
     80-year-old?

Since I am in there, somewhere, I will submit my choices: if I had cancer -
the US; arthritis - Sweden; ophthalmic problems: Germany; AIDS - France; etc.

According to friends who live in Britain, if you want good quality care,
you have to go off the "board," to private pay. Canadians with
head-injuries and spinal cord injuries flock by the dozens to rehab
hospitals in which I have worked in the past.

Nobody in the US has to go without health care. All communities have pro
bono services for the indigent. But ask me if I would send my child to
Cooper Green Medical Center in Birmingham.

My point is this: there is more to health care than per capita
expenditures, percent of GNP and GOKW (God-only-knows-what). Health care is
about people and relationships and healing and prevention of illness, and
reduction of stress, and quality of life, and caring. In his milestone book
on "Anatomy of an Illness" Norman Cousins stated quite succinctly (about 20
years ago) that what heals is the relationship between the physician and
the patient. In this vein, whether a country spends $10K per year per
person on allopathic medicine or $10 on acupuncture and moxibustion (but,
please. not aromatherapy!) is totally secondary to how well people get.

BTW, the rise in medical expenses in this country (the US) will slow down
considerably, due to the intervention of managed care and HMO facilities.
Would anyone care to guess what's happening to the QUALITY of health-care?

Have you ever been to a physician to whom you wouldn't send your dog?  Have
you ever been in a country where dogs get treated better than people? Have
you ever been in a hospital where the nurses were so scarce that you were
afraid that you could die and nobody would find you for days?

Numbers don't mean anything, except to keep some bureaucrats busy.

If you want to know what's best, ask the people who have had an experience
with one.

Regardless of what some of the socialists on this list believe, we all know
that the socialist/communist (although they weren't really, were they?)
systems of Europe, Asia and the Americas dehumanized health-care. This may
be anecdotal to some, but we know it to be fact. "We" being health-care
providers.

So if I were to recommend a system to Hungary, I would change priorities,
Cost, (although somebody has to come up with the scratch) would be
secondary to the selection of health care personnel and facilities.

Just as an aside.... according to some very clever people, as much as 70%
of all illnesses for which Americans seek a physician's help are stress
related. I would be surprised if the situation were radically different in
most Occidental countries.

So much for statistical data, when it comes to people. And, no, I will not
be updating my CD-ROM. :-) :-)

[soap box off]

Bandi

I would like to join you in your sentiments. On the question of the government 
stance prior to WW II it was the Romanian government that changed sides in 1916
 and in spite of the fact that they could not achieve anything militarily, occu
pied Hungary to the Danube line including Budapest after WW I and carried off a
nything that was not nailed down. It was only the firm stance of the English mi
litary commission member that prevented the clearing out of the treasures of th
e  Hungarian National Gallery by the Romanian army in 1919.
During WW II it was again Romania which changed sides and attacked Hungary. I d
o not think that it comes as a surprise that Hungarian governments have been wa
ry.

Regards
Dénes. 



----------
From:  E.S. Balogh[SMTP:]
Sent:  Sunday, 16 March 1997 10:37
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: March 15

At 06:10 PM 3/15/97 -0500, Gabor Farkas wrote:
>Victor Ciorbea, the Romanian Prime Minister sent a message of
>congratulations to the Hungarian citizens of Romania on the occasion of
>March 15. Among other things he says: " For our Hungarian brothers March 15
>signifies freedom, courage and freedom..." and " As members of the family of
>Romanian citizens, it is natural to honor and to celebrate each other's
>holidays." "Dear Hungarian citizens, I wish you a joyous March15."

        Things are really looking up in Romania!! I can't tell you how happy
this makes me because I have been for the longest time for a
Romanian-Hungarian reconciliation. Ever since I studied post-World War I
Hungarian diplomatic history I have become convinced that the post-World War
I governments should have followed a pro-Romanian policy. It made so much
sense. So much more than a pro-Czechoslovak (the liberals, Karolyi) or the
pro-Yugoslav (Horthy and co.) while the main enemy was considered to be
Romania. It made no sense. The largest Hungarian minority lived in Romania;
the Romanians, like the Hungarians, are not Slavs, there was interest on
part of Romania, and one could go on and on. And yet, Hungarian government
after Hungarian government pursued an anti-Romanian policy. It made no
sense. And, by the way, I am going to write a letter to Madelaine Albright
concerning Romania's admission to NATO. (Although I have my doubts that
Romania will be admitted this time around. Too bad that this change of
regime didn't come two or three years ago. Then, today Romania would have a
much greater chance.)

        I am really very, very pleased. This is the way to go.
        Eva Balogh

At 01:57 AM 3/16/97 -0400, Bandi Rozsa wrote:

<snip>
>Numbers don't mean anything, except to keep some bureaucrats busy.

Isn't this just wonderful.  I produce some numbers form Canadian and US
statistical books which show that Americans spend more on health care than
Canadians, and presto! -- numbers don't mean anything.  They only mean
something when it shows the United States in a good light.  All I can say is
what the Church Lady on Church Chat used to say on Saturday Night Live; "how
conveeeeeenient".  Indeed.

>If you want to know what's best, ask the people who have had an experience
>with one.
>
>Regardless of what some of the socialists on this list believe, we all know
>that the socialist/communist (although they weren't really, were they?)
>systems of Europe, Asia and the Americas dehumanized health-care. This may
>be anecdotal to some, but we know it to be fact. "We" being health-care
>providers.

What *do* the socialists on this list believe?  And, by the way, who are
they?  You're not suggesting that those who want good value for their
medical dollars are socialist, are you?  You wouldn't have a conflict of
interest on this topic, would you?

And what's this nonsense about socialists/communists dehumanizing
health-care?  Is allowing everyone equal access to health-care, regardless
of income, dehumanizing?  If you truly and honestly wanted to humanize
health-care you wouldn't charge for it.  Period.  But I bet you're still
charging big 'capitalist', 'humanized bucks', aren't you?  Now, don't
misunderstand me.  I'm all in favour of paying for medical services.  I just
don't understand your comment.

>So if I were to recommend a system to Hungary, I would change priorities,
>Cost, (although somebody has to come up with the scratch) would be
>secondary to the selection of health care personnel and facilities.

This might be a great suggestion for those who don't have to worry about
money.  However, most of us do.

Joe Szalai

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Wayne Bell

http://library.uwaterloo.ca:80/~jgszalai/WAYNE.HTM
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

In a message dated 97-03-16 02:00:05 EST,  (Andrew J. Rozsa)
writes:
 >[soap box on]
 >As a clinician, if I were to recommend  . . . /snip/

Long ago I have gotten lost in the sea of statistics being
bandi-ed (no pun intended !?) about regarding this topic.
Your article addresses the heart of the matter:

>My point is this: there is more to health care than per capita
>expenditures, percent of GNP and GOKW (God-only-knows-what). Health care is
>about people and relationships and healing and prevention of illness, and
>reduction of stress, and quality of life, and caring. In his milestone book
>on "Anatomy of an Illness" Norman Cousins stated quite succinctly (about 20
>years ago) that what heals is the relationship between the physician and
>the patient. In this vein, whether a country spends $10K per year per
>person on allopathic medicine or $10 on acupuncture and moxibustion (but,
>please. not aromatherapy!) is totally secondary to how well people get.

I had exposure to the Hungarian health care system and attitudes
back in 1977. I returned to Budapest for an extended stay to be with
my mother who was very ill. In her room - with 19 other beds - I spent
my days, trying to keep her spirits up. Everyone had their hands out,
it made a difference that I was from the States and could pay the doctors
and nurses a "bonus" for looking after my mother. Nurses were scarce -
as sick as my mother was, she kept running around looking for someone
to administer medication to one of her room mates - mother noticed that
this woman did not get her insulin shot and was worried about her.
Several people died in that room while I was there and needlesly -
it was due to bad or no care at all and my mother was one of them.
I wonder if attitudes have changed after 1989 . . .

In a nut shell, after experiencing health care in Hungary and in the US
on different levels I say that *attitude* is more than half of this issue.
The prospect of "managed care" frightens me. We must preserve
our freedom of choice in selecting a physician. The attitude of a
corporation toward my health-care is vastly different from a physicians.
No matter what country you are in, your needs are the same; you
want to be treated as a human being and get the best possible
care (TLC).

Lets rise up and educate ourselfs to take more responsibility for our own
health-care. Let the the medical community (physicians and administrators)
use innovation to cut through some of the costs and lots of the BS.
Lets control quality . . .

Sincerely, Marina

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments. Unfortunately you can not compare 
these qualitative aspects of health care. At the same time if hospitals are so 
understaffed that only the most basic care can be provided by overworked doctor
s and nurses or so strapped for funds that even basic medicines are unavailable
 that is reflected in the statistics which can be compared. While statistics al
one do not reflect good health care they allow comparisons.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Andrew J. Rozsa[SMTP:]
Sent:  Sunday, 16 March 1997 15:58
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Health Care Systems

If I ramble, I apologize. But bear with me....

The health-care data I "threw" at the readership of this list were mostly
red herrings.

Several years ago a book was published in the US with the title: "Places
Rated Almanac." In this book several hundred metro areas in the US were
ranked according to some VERY persuasive and all-inclusive appearing
criteria: climate & terrain, housing, health care & environment, crime,
transportation, education, the arts, recreation, economics, etc. The top 10
ranked cities were as follows:

 1.  Pittsburgh
 2.  Boston
 3.  Raleigh-Durham
 4.  Philadelphia
 5.  San Francisco
 6.  Nassau-Suffolk
 7.  Louisville
 8.  St. Louis
 9.  Rochester
10. Norwalk

I will not name names, lest I incur the wrath of 20 million people, but
many of these cities are simply "nice places to visit, but I wouldn't want
to live there." Others of the top 25 are hellholes. (Oh, yes, Sam is indeed
lucky: he lives in one of the truly best places in the US).

What was wrong? I had the precipitation data, the number of hours I could
count having my air conditioner on, the number of burglaries, bowling
alleys, drinking saloons, miles of freeways, traffic conditions, size of
airports, golf courses, museums, size of the symphony, etc. etc. ad nauseam.

Yet the numbers didn't jibe with my impressions or with the folks' whom I
have talked to over the years. Mind you, I have visited dozens of metro
areas during my many years of conferencing, spending at least 10 days in each.

I remember one particular course in statistics, among the many I had to
take in graduate school, that spend a lot of time showing us how one can
LIE with statistics. I won't even address the veracity of the collectors of
data, or that of the agencies that analyze them. Neither will I discuss the
methods used for analysis.


[soap box on]

As a clinician, if I were to recommend to a country such as Hungary (as if
my opinion mattered) which system of health care to choose, I would, for
one, propose to submit each system (extant) to a test:
     to which country's system would you go if you were, say: 20, 30, 40,
60, &
     80-year-old?

Since I am in there, somewhere, I will submit my choices: if I had cancer -
the US; arthritis - Sweden; ophthalmic problems: Germany; AIDS - France; etc.

According to friends who live in Britain, if you want good quality care,
you have to go off the "board," to private pay. Canadians with
head-injuries and spinal cord injuries flock by the dozens to rehab
hospitals in which I have worked in the past.

Nobody in the US has to go without health care. All communities have pro
bono services for the indigent. But ask me if I would send my child to
Cooper Green Medical Center in Birmingham.

My point is this: there is more to health care than per capita
expenditures, percent of GNP and GOKW (God-only-knows-what). Health care is
about people and relationships and healing and prevention of illness, and
reduction of stress, and quality of life, and caring. In his milestone book
on "Anatomy of an Illness" Norman Cousins stated quite succinctly (about 20
years ago) that what heals is the relationship between the physician and
the patient. In this vein, whether a country spends $10K per year per
person on allopathic medicine or $10 on acupuncture and moxibustion (but,
please. not aromatherapy!) is totally secondary to how well people get.

BTW, the rise in medical expenses in this country (the US) will slow down
considerably, due to the intervention of managed care and HMO facilities.
Would anyone care to guess what's happening to the QUALITY of health-care?

Have you ever been to a physician to whom you wouldn't send your dog?  Have
you ever been in a country where dogs get treated better than people? Have
you ever been in a hospital where the nurses were so scarce that you were
afraid that you could die and nobody would find you for days?

Numbers don't mean anything, except to keep some bureaucrats busy.

If you want to know what's best, ask the people who have had an experience
with one.

Regardless of what some of the socialists on this list believe, we all know
that the socialist/communist (although they weren't really, were they?)
systems of Europe, Asia and the Americas dehumanized health-care. This may
be anecdotal to some, but we know it to be fact. "We" being health-care
providers.

So if I were to recommend a system to Hungary, I would change priorities,
Cost, (although somebody has to come up with the scratch) would be
secondary to the selection of health care personnel and facilities.

Just as an aside.... according to some very clever people, as much as 70%
of all illnesses for which Americans seek a physician's help are stress
related. I would be surprised if the situation were radically different in
most Occidental countries.

So much for statistical data, when it comes to people. And, no, I will not
be updating my CD-ROM. :-) :-)

[soap box off]

Bandi

It is interesting to realise that the early laws against the jews in Hungary (n
umerus clausus) were no more restrictive and in some aspects less so than simil
ar laws and regulations which were in force in the 1920's and 30's in other par
ts of Europe and even USA. 
It is also instructive to analyse the response of the Hungarian people by and l
arge to instances of atrocities. I have not heard of actual acts of atrocities 
sheeted home to individual members of the gendarmarie (csendörség) on the other
 hand I have heard of numerous instances where these gendarmes mitigated the co
ndition of people being deported. The decision of whether to load people onto t
rains was not the province of the gendarmarie but a political one with the orde
r being given in a military setting. Just the same some individual gendarme off
icers took it upon themselves to disregard the orders or carry them out at the 
minimum level possible.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Dominus[SMTP:]
Sent:  Sunday, 16 March 1997 10:41
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: Istvannak es a Magyar listanak

 (Dominus) wrote:

 (aheringer) wrote:

>  Akkor jottek a nemetek es nyilasok es hajtottak oket harcolni
>>tovabbra is.  A magyar jellem nem szereti se a fasisztakat se a
>>kommunistakat
>
1-st INSTALLMENT:
In an earlier message, quite recklessly, I wrote: "How
shocking, everybody is right!" Maybe, it's true. Eccept that
I was wrong! We, hungarians, maybe one of the most genial
people on earth, have an urgent tendency to negate it, and
jump into our own mouth foot first.
Let me, as an introduction to tell you, that my father
belonged to the radical wing of the Smallholders Party,
represented by Eckhardt T. and B. Zsilinszky E.,  whom we
knew well. While, admittedly, neither of them were
philo-semites during their earlier years, both  opposed
Hungary's gravitation into German orbit, the country's
involvement in the War, the anti-jewish legislations, etc.
My father have put up and hide a large Jewish family in the
late spring of 1944 in a small hunting-shack in the forests
near Ungvar. This shack, since late March, already sheltered
two Polish Armi-officers, who crossed the borders in 1939
and lived in town known and unmolested by anyone for four
years and some. And my father wasn't the only one. Many-many
people gave shelter, hiding place, or just kept their mouth
shut if if they knew about people in hiding. With all we
FACTUALLY know, certainly the French, or, possibly even the
Dutch record is not better. Considering, that Hungary was
occupied only in March 1944,  when armed resistance against
the Nazis begun, --  the French could and did built their
Resistance Movement since 1939, after they became occupied.
Given this, there were very few "maquisard" in France.
"Hisz bunosok vagyunk mi, akar a tobbi nep,.." wrote Radnoti
Miklos in 1944, the greatest Hungarian poet (a Jew by birth)
of that time, who suffered martirdom later the same year by
the hands of nazi soldiers, driven (in a forced-labor
brigade) towards Austria in forced-march. Let me continue
with the next line: "s tudjuk miben vetkeztunk, mikor, hol
es mikep, / de elnek dolgozok itt, koltok is buntelen, / es
csecsszopok..." (I translate it to you:
"Yes, we are sinners, as other nations are,
and we know how we sinned, where, when and why,
but working people lives here, and poets, without sins,
and suckling babys... )
I think, I understand your pain, you probably lost
family-members, friends. One of my grandfathers in a small
town, not far from Budapest, was taken away on march 21.
1944, months before the Jews were herded in ghettos. He
never came back, and we don't know how and where he died.
My best friend and neighbour in Ungvar, a little Jewish
girl, also was killed, and many others I knew. My father
narrowly avoided capture after Oct. 15, 1944 by the Gestapo.
He was beaten by Rakosi's AVO after the war. After my escape
in January 1956 he also was taken and beaten. I was slapped
around in Jaszai Mari ter in early 1953 for being a
clerical-reactionary before I was let go. Yet I don't blame
all the hungarians and those who lean A BIT either to the
right or to the left.
On the other hand I blame the scroundlers and crooks in the
Government of Canada, whose Prime Minister felt that one Jew
is too many to let in the country during and after the war;
where a nazi youth who demonstrated with swastica on his arm
(that's how all good naci started) and later was appointed a
Leutenant Governor of a Province; in the Swiss Government,
which turned Jews back to their death, when they sought
refuge at the Swiss border; the political and military
leadership of the Soviets, whos Red Army stopped just a few
miles away and waited for days until the Warsaw-revolt was
massacred by the SS; the United Nations and the Western
Governments, who cowardly abandoned us when Hruschew and the
Politburo considered to let Hungary go in 1956.
J'accuse! I indict!

Please, read further in the following posting.

Ciao Tutti!
I am back ... and boy, did I have fun downloading around 300 messages.
Read the first few; chuckled alot, since I too expected that this topic
would have been history by now.  However since it's not, and I've been
cited, guess it's ok to respond?

Eva B - a long time ago:
>>It never occurred to me before
>>you wrote this post that Canada might exempt retirees from the kinds of
>>indirect taxation Aniko was talking about. Kinda brings new meaning to the
>>Vulcan salutation, "Live long and prosper," eh?
[...]
I wish that you were right Eva! - in previous correspondence, I have only
ever referred to the Nova Scotia system.  Sorry if I failed to make that
clear.  To clarify;  the feds through tax transfers provide each Can.
province certain funds to be allocated to Health Care, for each of the Can.
provinces.  Reporting back to the feds as to the allocation of these funds,
is a requirement.  But ... in addition to these funds,  each province,
independent of the Feds, are given freedom to do as they so desire - in
order to run their "provincial house" as they best see fit - without major
requirements of item by item reporting.  Thus comes Provincial Sales Tax -
which indeed varies a great  deal throughout Canada, not unlike the States.
 So, NS, has made the decision to further fund their Health Care through
this NS Health Tax.  Which would under no circumstance exempt anyone, let
alone senior citizens from contribution.  (I am, however happy to report
that seniors have, and do continue to have brakes above and beyond this.
The 11% on top of the compounded purchase price +7% however remains to be
one, which they must pay).  You buy, you pay.  Resident, visitor, senior or
junior .... all the same.  Clear as mud?  To further confuse - I believe
the NS is alone with this mentality.  Others have different ways .... in
Ontario, the people pay through their payroll deductions as some others
have written.  However, if you do not hold a job, you are free to
contribute on your own, providing that you are a resident of Ontario that
is - therefore, I disagree with the statement that if you don't work you
are not covered.  I believe the Qhip (Quebec' health care system) is also
similar.

Joe Sz: - in response to Eva's post as above (long time ago)
>
>Aniko doesn't know what she's talking about, and I can say that without fear
>of her jumping all over me, because she's out of the country for a while and
>by the time she returns this will be an old argument.
[...]
Hmmm .... now there's a statement!  I am back, and the topic is alive and
well .... guess that's two strikes down for you Josephe dahling!  As for my
not knowing what I talk of ... I only wish.  And no, I will not jump all
over you :-) (still prefer my Joe for that;-)).
>
>Actually, senior citizens whose only income is a fixed government pension
>and those who don't make much money get a GST rebate, from the federal
>government, three times a year.  That may work out to three or four hundred
>a year, and it's meant to offset any hardship they may have, paying the
>goods and services tax (GST).  It's possible to get more of a rebate than
>one pays in GST, if you're low income and don't buy much.
[...]
Can't argue that at all.  However, in *NS*, even senior citizens must
purchase certain things which are not tax exempt (Provincial Tax I mean).
Therefore the issue becomes a non issue.  On GST, they get the break yes.
However they do continue to contribute towards the Health Care regardless
of their age and status in life.
>
>At 09:30 AM 16/03/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 01:57 AM 3/16/97 -0400, Bandi Rozsa wrote:
><snip>
>>Numbers don't mean anything, except to keep some bureaucrats busy.
[...]
Actually Bandi, I could not agree with you more.  Words as are statistics
can and are being manipulated to suit a purpose .... any purpose.  And,
they are keeping bureaucrats employed by the thousands ... in order to
accomplish so.  In this instance, the statistics cited of the Canadian
Health care seem to be a prime example.  Those stats are based on Federal
Expenditures based on tax transfers.  And are about as accurate as my son's
chequing account balance, even at the best of times!  Why you ask?  Each
Canadian province does it's own thing when it comes to allocation of
provincially drawn taxes.  When provinces are not required to provide
accurate information of their own tax allocation to each and every cause,
the stats become totally inaccurate in the whole picture.

Btw - I am enclined to agree with Marina.  Compliments to your post.

As for you Joe; - Not only are hospitals being closed randomly, but in
*NS*, we are really experiencing major problems, despite the additional tax
towards health care.  That being the migration of our best physicians
(along with the average ones) to the border(s) south of us.  Despite the
taxes drawn; expenditures are out weighting income.  Standardizing of fees
for physicians are  forcing time controlled visits; resulting in worst care
than before; and certain services are truly not government funded; leaving
low incomers in positions of by passing health care altogether.  In short,
I hold my note .... which has always been, that ours is not as free as it
does seem; and the US is not as expensive as they do claim.   All other
aspects must be taken into consideration before one can deem one's system
to be better than the others.

For Hungary ... I wish that they would closely examine all, prior to
deciding which indeed is the optimum.

For Hoffman - Chill out with the sarcastic comments regarding Canada, will
ya?  It won't hurt you to learn of some other countries' practices ... will
it?

Nice to see that all's alive and well.  Take care each of you!

Best, Aniko

At 08:27 AM 3/15/97 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>If all [health-care] systems have costs and advantages, what is the
advantage of the
>American system?

        I don't think that one can contrast "costs" and "advantages." Cost
of health care is not the only "disadvantage." There can be many other
disadvantages: long waiting periods for surgery, inadequate technical
apparatus, low level of training of doctors and so on and so forth. And
these disadvantages may be quite independent from cost. The Canadian system
has many advocates in this country also but there are many disadvantages of
the system as well. For example, many Canadian doctors actually left Canada
for the United States for financial reasons. Here and there one can hear of
too long waiting periods. For example, I read about a woman who had breast
cancer and she had to wait six weeks for radiation treatment. This can be a
deciding factor between life and death and such thing couldn't possible
happen in this country. And, as far as I know, there are serious financial
strains on the whole system. But the Canadian system is relatively new and
therefore the serious long-term problems may not have shown up yet. In
England if you want to have quality care, you cannot rely on the national
health care system.

>Their system is the most expensive per capita, as a
>percentage of the GDP, and 40 million aren't insured.

        I don't know how many times we have to repeat it that although 40
million people are not insured they are receiving medical treatment gratis
from the hospitals. If they didn't American vital statistics wouldn't be
practically identical to the Canadian ones. Hospitals therefore must charge
more the treatment of those who are insured.

        Eva Balogh

At 05:10 PM 3/16/97 +1000, Denes wrote:

>I would like to join you in your sentiments. On the question of the
government stance prior to WW II it was the Romanian government that changed
sides in 1916 and in spite of the fact that they could not achieve anything
militarily, occupied Hungary to the Danube line including Budapest after WW
I and carried off anything that was not nailed down.

        Here we are discussing something about which I think I know more
than anyone else in the whole world. I know the period so well that I think
I could tell you what happened every day, practically every hour, between
August 1919 and January 1920. I wrote my dissertation in addition to three
or four articles on this period. One specifically on the Romanian occupation
of Budapest and the Paris Peace Conference's attitude toward the Romanians.

        A fair amount of unpublished documents in Hungarian, U.S., British
and French archives exist on Romanian desire to have bilateral negotiations
with a view of a personal union between the two countries. The Hungarian
government in power (not recognized by the Allies as legitimate) was
anti-Romanian and all Romanian approaches were immediately passed on to the
Allied representatives in Budapest. The Entente powers, especially the
United States, were also suspicious of Romanian designs and they were
against any kind of bilateral arrangement which they considered to be
anti-Entente in nature. There were, however a group of politicians--not in
power at the time--who were in favor of a rapprochement with Romania. The
most important among these was Istvan Bethlen, future prime minister of Hungary
.

>It was only the firm stance of the English military commission member that
prevented the clearing out of the treasures of the  Hungarian National
Gallery by the Romanian army in 1919.

        It was actually the head of the American military mission, General
Bandholtz. His memoires were published in 1933 by Columbia University Press
and has been reprinted since. Very entertaining, I can highly recommended.
The title is: An Undiplomatic Diary.


        Eva Balogh

E.Balogh wrote:

>>It was only the firm stance of the English military commission member that
>>prevented the clearing out of the treasures of the  Hungarian National
>>Gallery by the Romanian army in 1919.
>
>        It was actually the head of the American military mission, General
>Bandholtz. His memoires were published in 1933 by Columbia University Press
>and has been reprinted since. Very entertaining, I can highly recommended.
>The title is: An Undiplomatic Diary.

His statue is on the Szabagsag ter in Budapest, right in front of the National
Bank. As far as I remember the whole story is on the statue, he personally
sealed the entrance of the National Museum in order to stop the 'souvenir
collecting'.

J.Zs

At 01:57 AM 3/16/97 -0400, Bandi Rozsa wrote a wonderful piece altogether,
but I would like to quote here only the following:

>My point is this: there is more to health care than per capita
>expenditures, percent of GNP and GOKW (God-only-knows-what). Health care is
>about people and relationships and healing and prevention of illness, and
>reduction of stress, and quality of life, and caring. In his milestone book
>on "Anatomy of an Illness" Norman Cousins stated quite succinctly (about 20
>years ago) that what heals is the relationship between the physician and
>the patient. In this vein, whether a country spends $10K per year per
>person on allopathic medicine or $10 on acupuncture and moxibustion (but,
>please. not aromatherapy!) is totally secondary to how well people get.

        It couldn't be said better, and I am afraid it is in that department
that the Hungarian system (and I believe perhaps all the Soviet-type
systems) failed miserably. I have talked to several doctor friends and
relatives and there are many complaints about nurses. Some of them--and it
has little to do with level of training--are not caring people. One can hear
horror stories about some of them. On the other hand, there are some who are
doing their best under very trying circumstances.
        The same is true about the doctors. According to one rather
skeptical Hungarian doctor friend of mine (who lives abroad, by the way),
Hungarian doctors themselves are responsible for the inadequate training of
nurses because if the nurses were more involved with patient care, they
would also receive "ha'lape'nz,"  that is, money which doctors receive as a
result of "patients' gratitude."
        By the way, hospitals have terrible reputations and everybody tries
to avoid them. But the system is set up in such a way that it is to the
hospitals' advantage to keep patients in as long as possible (for financial
reasons) and therefore a simple cataract operation means five days in the
hospital. People try to avoid the hospital and it is enough to read Marina's
description of a Hungarian hospital to know why. I'm afraid things haven't
changed much. The only time I was in a Hungarian hospital was sometime
around 1950. My godmother was dying of breast cancer and we went to visit
her in her last days in the hospital. Marina talks about nineteen people in
the ward--I don't remember exactly but my recollection is somewhat similar:
a long row of beds--people with different illnesses thrown together. People
dying in the same room where relatively healthy people stayed. The whole
scene reminds me of movies showing nineteenth-century hospitals. A horror story
.

        In any case, the whole Hungarian system, in plain language, stinks
and I am not at all sure whether it can be easily fixed. There is too much
vested interest involved. Just think about it, until about two years ago it
was always an M.D. who was heading the ministry responsible for health
questions. Then an outsider was appointed--after two years he quit. Now we
are back where we were before, a so-called medical doctor is the minister. I
am saying "so-called" because although he has a degree he has been an
official at the ministry for the last God-knows-how-many years.

        I really do think that you would need an outsider to come up with
some new ideas. But the possibility of this is really nil.
        Eva Balogh

At 08:19 AM 3/16/97 -0500, Marina wrote:

>The prospect of "managed care" frightens me. We must preserve
>our freedom of choice in selecting a physician.

        Someone who belongs to an HMO I can tell you about my experiences.
In some ways it is very good. There is a core of physicians, most of whom
have their own private practices in town and/or are affiliated with Yale
University or Yale-New Haven Hospital. They are really the very best you can
get. Although there are two hospitals in New Haven, my HMO deals only with
Yale-New Haven Hospital. So, if I ever needed to go to the hospital it would
Yale-New Haven, which is, of course, a teaching hospital with all its pluses
and minuses. I like my GP although I don't think that he is the greatest
doctor on the face of the earth, but he can certainly do my yearly physicals
and order the right tests.
        My only complaint is the always-changing situation. For example, at
one point the HMO had five opthtalmologists from whom you could choose. Four
out of the five were excellent--needless to say I ended up with the only
lousy one. An ignorant, arrogant, hateful punk. I hated him from day one for
two reasons: (1) I thought that he was misdiagnosing my problem and (2) he
refused to answer any of my questions. He treated me if I were an idiot.
After putting up with him for much longer than I should have, I managed to
get an absolutely wonderful fellow but just as I managed to get decent care
from a man with whom I got along very well, the HMO decided to fire all the
eye doctors and sign up with an eye-care group. From one day to the next, I
had a new eye doctor with no sense of humor whatsoever. I don't really like
him very much but he at least seems to be well qualified.
        The same situation occurred in the gynecology department. I picked
out of the hat a name and I liked the guy well enough. He did have a sense
of humor and he knew what he was doing. One day I received a letter saying
that there was a reorganization and there is no more gynecology department.
From here on we can pick from the following names: gynecologists practicing
in New Haven. I kept loooking at the names and I had no idea on what basis
to choose. Eventually I picked one, practically at random. I was lucky. It
turned out that she was a classmate of a very good friend of mine at Yale
Medical School. She, just like my friend, first received a Ph.D. and only
then she decided to go to medical school (she couldn't get a job as a Ph.D.
in brief). I also loved her attitude. Unlike in other doctors' offices where
a nurse takes down all your medical information, at her office she had a
desk in the examination room and before there was any examination or test,
we sat down and chatted about my particular situation. (And by the way,
before my first appointment I received a questionnaire which must have had
at least 100 questions on it concerning not only my own medical history but
that of my whole family.) So, in this case I think the change was for the
better. But one never knows what will happen next.
        That is certainly a drawback. On the other hand, I have never
experienced any "skimping" on anything. On the contrary, they do so many
tests that sometimes I think that it is really unnecessary. Just one
example. One day my knee hurt rather badly. In addition to an X-ray, my GP
also insisted on a Lyme-disease test because, as he put it, because I live
in real "deer-country." Yes, that's true, but the symptoms simply didn't
jibe with Lyme-disease. However, I appreciated that he was so cautious.

        Eva Balogh

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>
>I wonder if something could be gained by having a pan-European federation,
>or council, or whatever, of people who don't belong to the large linguistic
>and cultural groups.  I'm thinking of the Hungarians, Romanians, Basques,
>Lapps, etc., supporting each other to make sure everyone survives in the new
>Europe.
>
>Joe Szalai

Joe, I think there's already something like it in place to deal with speakers
of minority languages in the region.
Sam Stowe




"If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
move away from him immediately. They're usually
the last words he'll ever utter..."
-- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
contemplating a move to the promised land.

In article >, Janos
Zsargo > writes:

>>dollars in war material to Britain and getting nothing in return. We were
>even
>>providing active anti-submarine coverage for British shipping off the East
>>Coast of the U.S. well in advance of December, 194
>
>Interesting, can you tell than why it was an outrageous barbarism when the
>USS
>Reuben James was sunk by a German submarine? Did anyone ask what the
>destroyer
>was doing in the middle of a British convoy?
>
>J.Zs

Janos, I don't have the reference materials right at hand and I need to check
before I can give you an informed answer. I know the Germans were attacking
shipping off the North Carolina coast long before Pearl Harbor. And they
weren't British convoys. I don't think convoying started in earnest along the
North Atlantic routes until sometime around Pearl Harbor or shortly thereafter.
I do remember that Roosevelt extended the U.S. patrol areas to the mid-Atlantic
sometime in the late spring or early summer of
Sam Stowe


"If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
move away from him immediately. They're usually
the last words he'll ever utter..."
-- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
contemplating a move to the promised land.

In article >, Denes BOGSANYI
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: Istvannak es a Magyar listanak
>From:  Denes BOGSANYI >
>Date:  Sun, 16 Mar 1997 19:30:37 +1000
>
>It is interesting to realise that the early laws against the jews in =
>Hungary (numerus clausus) were no more restrictive and in some aspects =
>less so than similar laws and regulations which were in force in the =
>1920's and 30's in other parts of Europe and even USA.

Try as I might, I cannot even fathom what in the living hell you are talking
about. There were no laws against Jews in the U.S. in the 1920s and 1930s.
There were no laws against Jews earlier or later in this country. Louis
Brandeis, for Pete's sake, was a U.S. Supreme Court justice during part of this
era, as was Felix Frankfurter a little later. There were horrible laws in the
South which kept African-Americans from voting or holding public office and
segregated public facilities between whites and blacks
Sam Stowe




"If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
move away from him immediately. They're usually
the last words he'll ever utter..."
-- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
contemplating a move to the promised land.

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>At 06:05 PM 3/15/97 GMT, Sam Stowe, out of sheer desperation, wrote:
>
><snip>
>>Joe, what happened to all your boasting about how the Canadian system was so
>>much better because it covered everyone, unlike the American system? Did
>>you, by any chance, see the coverage figures in the data posted? Did the
>>fact that Canada's coverage percentage was listed as 99% and the U.S.
>>percentage was rated 100% have anything to do with the fact that you have
>>now shifted your focus of comparison and nationalist braggadocio to
>>percentages of Gross Domestic Product?
>
>Not only did I see the 99% coverage figure, I also mentioned it.  And did
>you see the post where I quoted from a 'Statistics Canada' book where it
>said: "The Canadian health care system is based on five principles
>legislated in the federal Canada Health Act: public administration,
>comprehensiveness, universality, portability and accessibility."
>
>Tell you what Sam.  Find me a Canadian who has ever been denied health care
>in Canada.  You can even recruit that journalistic icon, the one American
>who isn't affraid to ask the really tough questions, Barbara Walters, to go
>across Canada looking for that one per cent who aren't covered.  I'll give
>you a head start by asking everyone on this list, and those who read this
>list, and live in Canada, if you have ever been denied health care or if
>they know of anyone who has.  If you do, please respond to the list.
>
>Joe Szalai

I knew you'd try to gloss over the fact that you spend a week or so taking the
piss out of the American health care system because it didn't cover everybody
like Canada's does. Now that you've been proved wrong about the American
system, you can't even muster the grace to admit it and start belching out
thick clouds of rhetorical smoke to mask your retreat. Sic semper chauvinists.
Sam Stowe


"If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
move away from him immediately. They're usually
the last words he'll ever utter..."
-- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
contemplating a move to the promised land.