Does anybody know anything about this company and its saales methods.  Is it a
scam.  Pyramid selling?  Whatever you know would be appreciated before a
relative loses his money.
Thanks
 
Terry Baker

In article >, 
s.com (T. M. Lutas) says:

Draga Lutas,

I'm for people learning and using a diversity of languages. It is a good
idea to have a national language for administration purposes, etc, but I
dislike the implication that people should need to forget their cultural 
language. Take tri-lingual Belgium, for instance; it has its problems, we
know, but it is still one of the most culturally interesting countries in
Europe just because of that diversity (of course, many Belgians would get
on their anti-Fleming/Walloon hobbyhorse and dispute this...oh, well.)

Granted, it is useful to be able to communicate in the predominant language 
of the country (USA, UK, wherever) but plenty of peoples (Arab, Indo-Pak, 
Chinese, etc,) maintain a firm grip on their languages and cultures while
contributing to the economy. It depends on the richness and strength of
their original culture and I would argue that a well-educated non-English
speaker would be able to adapt pretty quickly to an English speaking 
environmenbt when necessary. Plenty of English-only speakers comprise the
unemployed, poor, homeless, etc, in both USA and UK. Perhaps most of your
lettuce field workers are uneducated migrants from south of the border?
I found Hispanics and Chinese much better represented in the banking 
business in California than any equivalent banks in the UK, for instance.
Cupertino, one of the most affluent towns in Silicon Valley, is almost
totally Chinese, too.

>In New York City, taxi drivers now have to speak english by law. You cannot
>get a license to drive a cab without speaking the language. Since taxis are
>a great tool for upward economic mobility you can see how the non-english 
>speaking immigrants either better learn english or they are going to be more
>limited in their prospects. 

That's fair enough. I don't see a problem with the taxi law. Having a 
commonly understood language (for fares, place names, etc) in such a 
public service/enterprise seems reasonable and doesn't mean taxi drivers
are *assimilated* or abandoning their culture by learning a few words of 
English. But aren't there plenty of thriving businesses in NY where the
ownership and staff are from one ethnic group speaking largely their own
non-English language (using only English when necessary)?

>> Can Romanians not live together with Hungarians, Germans, Russians, 
>> etc? I believe they can (and they have done for centuries, after a 
>> fashion) but there always has to be those who stir up hatreds for their 
>> own egotistical ends (usually under the transparent guise of nationalism.) 
>
>Full bellies and free access to information are the best inoculant against
>this disease that we both do not like. Neither communists like Iliescu or 
>the rabid variety of nationalists like Funar like prosperity. It cuts into
>their power base. Witness the great post-Ceausescu inflation and Caritas.
>Both had the same effect of pauperizing many Romanians.

We are fundamentally in accord on this theme.

>> Where cultural diversity is pro-actively supported under the banner of 
>> state citizenship and a pluralistic society allowed to flourish there 
>> has always been great economic wealth and great civilization. Conversely, 
>> where nationalism and xenophobia rule it has the opposite effect. The 
>> day one considers oneself an empathic human being and a citizen of the 
>> world before whatever else next is the day one is liberated from the 
>> crippling misconception of nationalism and the wooden language of 
>> nationalistic politics. When I hear nationalists (whether Romanian, 
>> Hungarian, or whatever) speak about others having to assimilate according 
>> their rules I hear only ignorance from mental midgets and barbarism 
>> underlying it all. 
>
>I am an immigrant in the US. I have had to make choices as to how much of my
>culture do I wish to keep. I fully recognize that if I had not learned English
>I would be condemned to a miserable ghetto existence of poverty. I chose to
>spend time speaking and reading Romanian even though I know I could be doing
>other things that would benefit myself more economically. 

If speaking and reading Romanian gives you strength and a feeling of self-
respect then it's very valuable. Few people concentrate only on economic
matters. What kind of a life would that be? 

>I even hope to get
>my writing well enough to one day write on SCR in my mother tongue with the
>same clarity and competence that I have in english. 
>I realize that these cultural choices are trade offs for me personally. I don'
t
>expect them to be any different for a hungarian in Romania as they are for a
>romanian in the USA.

Nobody is saying it's easy, especially if you went to the USA without 
knowing much English. I know the problem: I lived in several countries in 
Europe without mastering the languages of any of them, having to gradually
learn, but mostly getting by on smatterings of this and that, plus a lot
of good will (having English as a first language was never too much of a
handicap, anyway.) I could have continued to live in any one of those 
countries and gradually mastered the language and prospered, even continuing 
to run my own business, in one case, had I chosen to do so. I had to respect 
the cultures, laws and customs of those countries, but I never felt that 
I had to be *assimilated* by pretending to abandon my British-Hungarian 
background. It wouldn't have worked, anyway, not for a generation or two, 
at least. Whatever one's background, ethnic origin, etc, attitude is the
important factor. I never felt myself a real foreigner in Europe: I see
myself as a citizen of the world first, a European second and all the rest
after that. Individuals are always individuals: diversity makes a coutry 
rich in more ways than one. Attempts to create uniformity of mentality, 
language, religion, etc, is something that belongs to totalitarian 
ideologies.

Getting back to the main thread, I would applaud a Romanian government 
that invested in cultivating such diversity that would lead to an Open
Society in Romania. It even used to do so up to a point (Brasov Germans,
etc) but these days there seems to a popular trend in Romania to go in 
exactly the opposite direction (as is happening in Slovakia.) I can 
appreciate that a colourful rivalry with bordering ethnic groups and 
various historical empires have made many Romanians wary of so-called non-
Romanian Romanians (if you know what I mean). but the first lesson of 
history is: look back, but don't stare! I would also like to see the 
Hungarian government doing something similar...

Good luck!

--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 ICPUG..Commodore=64 ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list!

 (T. M. Lutas) writes:

>In article >,
 (George Antony Ph 93818) wrote:

>> This decision problem is, of course, only present in countries where the 
>> majority does not allow other options.  In the lamentably few countries
>> with civilized policies towards minorities, there is the third option of 
>> maintaining one's minority culture AND participating in the economic 
>> activities of the country AND maintaing cultural links with the ethnic kin
>> across the national boundary.

>It would be nice to think that you can square the circle. I would like to
>here some practical examples of how you think this can be done.

>> Italy's German-speaking minority in the province of Alto Adige/Sudtyrol
>> is the best proof that all this is possible.

>What is present that allows such a thing to happen? Is it a legal arrangement?
>Has there been cultural peace negotiated over the years between the two? 

To recap for the sake of those unfamiliar with the issue:

The Austrian province of South Tyrol (Suedtyrol) was awarded to Italy after
WWI for geo-political reasons.  Given the arbitrariness of the dictate by
the Entente powers and the predominance of German speakers in the province,
the case was a festering sore in Austrian-Italian relations for decades.
In the '60s there were even some terrorist bombings by an underground 
group claiming to fight for the interests of South Tyroleans.

The Italian and Austrian governments decided to resolve the issue within
the following parameters:  South Tyrol remains in Italy, there is a wide
territorial and cultural autonomy given to German speakers in South Tyrol,
and the Austrian government is given rights as the formal advocate of 
South Tyrol Austrians.  (There may well have been more details that I 
cannot recall or I am not correct about, so I include crossposts to 
soc.culture.austria and soc.culture.italian to allow a broader discussion.)

Italy scrupulously implemented its part of the agreement, and agreed that
Austria should submit a formal report to the UN on the implementation and
the situation of German speakers in South Tyrol, yearly.  Sometimes in the
1980s the Austrian government declared that it saw no need to continue this
practice as it was satisfied with the situation. 

Apart from minor grumbles (Italian South Tyroleans claiming discrimination
by the German-speaking majority recently), the situation appears to be 
satisfactory.

>What
>do you see Romania needing to adjust to adopt this magical best of both 
>worlds alternative?

Substitute Romania for Italy, Hungary for Austria and a still-to-be-defined
part of Transylvania for South Tyrol.  Can you see now ?

>> In contrast, monolingualism and other manifestations of defensive cultural 
>> isolation of a minority are always indications that that minority feels 
>> threatened by the majority.

>A person or an ethnic group can feel threatened without there actually being
>a threat. So is the threatened feeling coming from actual threat (and what
>is it)? Is it paranoia or other collective mental illness? Is it a guilty
>conscience over what you did to us in the preceding century? Or is it a 
>combination of all of the above? Please give me an analysis of what you think 
>is the basis for this threatened feeling. You seem to have novel ideas.

While one individual, or a number of individuals, may feel threatened due
to some kind of mental illness, you cannot use the same explanation when 
a significant portion of a group feels threatened.

I also happen to think that this 'what you did to us in the preceding 
century' is exactly the worst possible way of approaching the issue, since
it can only lead to mutual name calling.  You see, nobody is perfect and one
can find plenty of hurt, perceived and/or real, on both sides.

The only way ahead is to wipe the slate clean and instead of remedying the 
past try to concentrate on the future.

George Antony

The following questionnaire was rectified for the purpose of a 
sociological study to determine what characteristics people find 
important in a mate/partner.  Any of the questions asked will remain 
highly confidential and will be retained solely for this study.  The 
study I am conducting is in no way meant to harm, defame, or 
incriminate anyone by sexual preference, gender, race, or geographical 
location.  
     I am asking for your participation to better understand why we 
pick the people we do for a mate/partner.  I would sincerely 
appreciate your forwarding this entire message to all of your friends, 
and your response to this questionnaire.  If you would please return 
the questionnaire and your answer to the following e-mail address: 
.  Once again thank you for your help in my 
research.

1.  What is your race/ethnicity? ___Black ___Hispanic ___Asian 
    ___American/Pacific Islander___Native American/Alaskan Native 
    ___Caucasian ___Other

2.  What is your sex? ___Male       ___Female

3.  How much education do you have? ___Below high school ___H.S. 
    diploma ___G.E.D ___Vocation ___Currently in school               
    ___College -- _____ How many years?

4.  What is your citizenship (if U.S. what state do you reside in)? 
    ________________________________________________

5.  Please order the following from 1-8 (one being the most important 
    to eight being the least)?

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    ___Friend ___Lover ___Both

7.  Your sexual preference is? ___Heterosexual ___Bi-sexual 
    ___Homosexual

8.  What is the most important quality one must possess to be a 
    partner/mate? _______________

9.  Do you date ___Wealthy ___repetitive ___Carpe-Diem (living day to 
    day) ___Educated ___Prince charming, or ___no preference?

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Thank you for your cooperation, please return to 

 (T. M. Lutas) wrote:

>In article >,  (Ferenc Istvan
>Vaski) wrote:

>> .....wow....are you ever a product of your peoples propaganda....of
>> course you believe that the Romanians were there long before anyone or
>> anything for that matter....even before something wiggled out of the
>> primordial ooze...there where Romanians there according to you and
>> those that wishfully think like you...so where are the traces of this
>> brilliant Daco-Roman civilization?..your theories have become the
>> great Romanian National Myth.....

>I just posted an announcement that the Vatican is opening up its documents
>on early Romanian Christianity for exhibition. I would say that they are
>a neutral source that is only interested in the truth on this matter. Some
>of those traces you so scornfully asked for are there.

>I await to hear how this Polish pope is partaking of the extension of the
>"great Romanian National Myth". But of course everybody is unjust to the
>Hungarians, you most of all.

>DB

>-- 
>Romanian Political Pages now are available
>http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

....all aside I would be interested in more information regarding
this...as for being unjust etc....your sarcasm unwarranted...

 (T. M. Lutas) wrote:

>In article >,  (Ferenc Istvan
>Vaski) wrote:

>>  (T. M. Lutas) wrote:

>> >My point, (which you haven't yet addressed) is that minorities have a choic
e
>> >to make. It is obvious that the hungarian pocket in the middle of Romania
>> >can't go it alone and secede. The present Hungarian governmnet doesn't want
>> >them to and we Romanians would certainly put down any revolt. They either
>> >have to assimilate with the loss of culture and the increased economic
>> >opportunities that come with that choice or you remain separate and maintai
n
>> >your culture while suffering inevitable loss of economic opportunities due
>> >to your linguistic and cultural isolation. I don't particularaly advocate
>> >one over the other but I think that there are quite a few hungarians
>> >including yourself who don't want to look at this hard choice and honestly 
>< >make it.

>> ...so what do you want them to do?...what would you like to see happen
>> with them?...I find your statement about the present Hungarian gov't
>> interesting to say the least.....I think they would sooner become like
>> the Amish ...then give up their own culture..... it appears tho that
>> is what you would like to see happen...

>I want them to understand as a community that this is a choice that each
>individual hungarian ethnic is going to have to make and to draw a line
>between these two poles of assimilation and isolation. My preference is
>to make your bed, lie in it, and stop whining. 

>There probably are unjust Romanians in this world who are prejudiced to
>hungarians. I've met a few. I believe that they should stop and I engage
>them when I find them. What makes it very hard to clean up my own 
>community is that they can point to unjustified hungarian whining and 
>outright propaganda lies. This makes it more difficult to pin these unjust
>romanians down.

>My interest is in my own community, to rebuild its character in whatever
>small ways that I can as an individual romanian. Hungary and hungarians
>are for me an incidental that is a distraction from the moral challenges
>that lie ahead for Romania. Whether or not we treat hungarians properly
>is incidental the moral question of whether or not we treat people 
>properly without regard to their ethnicity.

>DB

>-- 
>Romanian Political Pages now are available
>http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

....well...finally...I can at least agree with your last
statement...and that is true....

Ugy hallottam, hogy a Duna TV-t az 1-es es a 2-es csatornaval egyutt atteszik 
egy masik muholdra. Tud errol valaki valami konkretat?  

Kosz elore is  Imre

Hi!  I had to find some reasonable airfare for my trips this 
spring/summer and one of the times is approximately when you're asking 
about.  What I found, unfortunately, is that after May 31 you're 
venturing into another travel season and, therefore, it costs more.  June 
is part of the high season.  If you were to complete your travel by May 
31 you would probably find some pretty good deals.  The best I could find 
from May 12-June 16 is around $1000 roundtrip from 
Detroit->Amsterdam->Budapest.  I rounded up but it's basically in that 
ballpark.  If you want, I can give you the name of the company I went 
through.  The thing to keep in mind is that the fare that I received was 
for "Q" class (which has no difference from any other class but first) 
and if there are still seats in that class available then you can get a 
fare in that price range too.  Sorry I couldn't help any more but if you 
have any questions just write and I'll help any way that I can.

Anna

On Mon, 15 Apr 1996, koplyay wrote:

> Does anybody know any travel bureau (or Airline)  offering discount air
> fair for two persons round trip to Hungary between May 16 and June 4 
> either from Houston,TX or New York JFK to Budapest ?
> 
> Any help will be greatly appreciated!
> 
> Janos Koplyay
> 
> 
> ======= The following has been added by the mailer software =======
> 
> subs/unsubs info - mailto:
> digest - mailto:
>

Szeretnek valakivel osszekotetest letesiteni Satoraljaujhely kornyekerol.


Laci 

 wrote:
> .
> A perfect story to illustrate the traditional Polish-Hungarian
> friendship.  I hope you know at least SOME Polish.  Many Hungarians
> without ANY Polish background do.
> 
> >and here I am debating the question of
> >Hungarianness , on the Internet, in the US of A. Isn't that great?! And
> >You: directly from the gently rolling, civilized pannon hills and
> >fields?  PK
> 
> Heh heh heh!  I think there are a few here who would disagree with you
> on attaching the word "civilized" to "pannon". ;-)
> 
> Joe

  And even more so to the name " Joe Pannon "!!! hi-hi-hi !!!( Nome est/ 
non est omen ?)

  Here I learned a few words of Polish, but most of the guys/gals are 
second/third gen. Amer/Polish, lost old-country language, but we all 
love pierogi !
But You did not pay attention to the German element( the Polish-German 
combo is called "Kasub" in happy Silezia), so one may call me Hungarian 
Kasub ! On the Hungarian immigration/naturalization we are in perfect 
agreement !   Udv,  Peter

In article >, T. Kocsis > wrote
:

> In article > T. M.
> Lutas,  writes:

> >There is a danger for Romania because much of the money that has been
> >taken in has financed private gain for the well connected and also to
> >purchase consumer goods that will not lead to Romania recovering from
> >the ill economic effects of communism. 
> 
> I am sorry to say, but this is tipical socialist logic. The best place of
> that money is the private sector. 

I'm not talking about private gain as in build a factory and profit from it. 
I am talking about private gain in terms of banknotes deposited to swiss 
accounts and american mutual funds. Capital exportation is a serious problem 
in Romania. Everybody would like to do it due to communist mismanagement but 
only the communists that are well connected are able to manage it.

Romania needs those private factories. It needs to cut down on government
corruption and theft. This is what I was referring to. Buying huge quantities
of meat and other consumer goods while eating big time losses by keeping 
subsidies high right before an election is the neo-communist electoral formula.
After the election, you spend three years pocketing the funds and let the peopl
e
be miserable before you again redirect the spigot to consumer goods and 
economic subsidies right before an election. I hope you agree with me that this
 
use of foreign money is wrong.

> >the next big
> >challenge will be how to make CDR government successful enough so that
> >the communists don't make a comeback
> 
> I've thought CDR government is a communist one. Not deep red anymore,
> just rose with brown traces. With the exeption of the big boss they are
> still the same set of ol' farts, aren't they ? I guess you voted for
> them...

Since the CDR never got a majority, I would say in this case you are
misinformed.
The PDSR are the current rulers along with their nationalist partners and
we have 
elections coming up this fall. The CDR is the main democratic opposition.
I hope 
that the CDR will be successful this time at being elected and I was
raising the 
question of the future government and what is going to have to be done in order
 
to keep the communists out of power for good.

DB

-- 
Romanian Political Pages now are available
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

In article > T. M.
Lutas,  writes:
>Since the CDR never got a majority, I would say in this case you are
>misinformed. The PDSR are the current rulers along with their nationalist
>partners and we have  elections coming up this fall. The CDR is the main
>democratic opposition.
>I hope that the CDR will be successful this time at being elected and I was
>raising the question of the future government and what is going to have to
>be done in order to keep the communists out of power for good.

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I mixed up CDR with PSDR.
What I wrote I intended on the ruling coalition.

However -at least a little bit- it is also your fault. The tone
of your letter was such, that I've thought it came from an angry
nationalist, so I did not think it over  whether CDR or PSDR
are the bad boy.

Tamas

In article > T. M.
Lutas,  writes:
>Buying huge quantities
>of meat and other consumer goods while eating big time losses by keeping 
>subsidies high right before an election is the neo-communist electoral formula
.
>After the election, you spend three years pocketing the funds and let the peop
le
>be miserable before you again redirect the spigot to consumer goods and 
>economic subsidies right before an election. I hope you agree with me that thi
s 
>use of foreign money is wrong.

We are agree on this . However I think you miss another point
which may be crucial in stabilizing the communist coalition.
It is the mass privatization.

Remember, at first most of the ex-Comecom countries voted for
rightish political parties into power. After four years all but one
were gone. This only one was the Czech government of Vaclav Klaus.
I think he managed to stay in power because he gave his nation
those shares, to play with, playing Monopoly game seriusly. Those
shares, their influence can make very large changes in the thinking
of people. Those new owner will never forget that he was who gav
them, and the will be thankful. If he does not make big mistakes
(he did not) he manages to stay in power.
When one ownes nothing, become very sensitive to any demagogy.
After few shares (whose prices have to be checked every day in the
newpaper, the effect of political and  economical decisions on share
prices has to be thougth over) everybody become a littlebit capitalist,
which makes people more selfish, they will care less on 'national scale
injustices' as far as their shares perform well on the stock market.
Such people are unlikely to change government. They hate changes.

Tamás

In article > Wally Keeler,
 writes:
>I am not steeped in the Hungarian geniuses. Could you elaborate?

The book I am going to talk about is:
   Hamvas Béla: Az öt géniusz / The five geniuses 

This genius indeed comes from the genius loci. At the end of
the book Hamvas explicitely declares that he developed the
concept from the "region/people/order of life" triplet. The
nature, the surrounding has very strong effect on life, and
vice versa. The cannot be discussed separatelly.

 I only write some tipical words of the five geniuses to cha-
racterize them. Hamvas writes about them through pages after
pages. With only one sentences: 
south - cheerful, serene life ideal
west - cultivatedness and social balance
north - closeness to nature, sensitivity
east -  yearning for freedom
Erdely - intricate richness

The South is our mediteranean inheritance.This way of life can
be found in south Hungary. Balance, reduced activity, talent for
enyoing life, serenity, It has culture (West just cultivated).
Berzsenyi belongs to here. Hamvas says he was the last great
antic poet.

West- (the genius west europe ) civilizedness, practicity,
averageness, activity, social organisedness, belief in de-
velopment (? fejlodeseszme) etc. etc. Szecheny is tipical.
instead of God they have facts, 
myth - science
magic - technics
createure - labour
All the other four geniuses prefer lyrical poetry (dreams and
ideas), west is predominantly prefer prose (reality). Even the
prose becomes lirical in Erdely.

The North genius covers a  provincial way of life tipical to
north, where the nature plays an important role in the life.
The people of this genius has never had own culture but lived
in the influence of others, usually under other nations (like
Polands). Melancolic, irrational, loose social relations, sectist,
superstitous. Mikszath is quite tipical for that genius. Hamvas
put Petofi here (he has also other geniuses) because of his
enthusiasm (for the Alfold). A nordic may be enthusiast but
an eastern never.

East has a very strong effect because large part of the popu-
lation exclusively belongs to this group. This genius is preva-
lent in the east in the steppe region goes through China and
reaches the ocean.  Nomadic, very strong yearning for freedom,
letargy and bad temper, opposition against anything which is
not the self, vanity, disdain, turbulency, provisionality, lack
of or disintegrated communities, irelligousness, myths.
(compare the house of west, everything is practical, expedient.
The house of Alfold (the hungarian plane) has that room, which
is called tisztaszoba "clear room" which is furnished with the
best furniture, and its door and window is closed and nobody
will live here)

Erdely -it is basicly Byzantic culture adapted by the Hungarians
in Transilvania. In some aspect differ from the genius of Byzan-
tium which is prevalent in the Balkan and in Russia. The tipical
points of the Hungaian version are the the ability of bridging over
big differences together with the presence of big contrasts and
differences, skill in deceit, good taste, clever practicality, op-
portunism

Hamvas says that an average european only has to unit and con-
ciliate to form his/her individuality. We have five such geniuses
and three of them ( east, west, erdely) are very difficult to
reconcile. Just a  political example: for the genius of west, the
compromise is an accepted political tool, in Erdely together with
the intrigue it *is* the politics, for the east it is capital political
crime.

Who manage to reconcile these five geniuses gains awful lot,
however.  It managable, when south and north used as 'adhesive'.
Only the five together form a full hungarian psyche, full magyar
personality. (Jokai, Csokonay seems to manage that)

The problem with these geniuses, that if they are not reconci-
led they become demonical because the geniuses are archeo-
tipical qualities. It results the tipical Hungarian irrational
hatred to each other. 

Tamas

>Mar ketszer visszjott a levelem toled :
>George Jalsovszky
>============================================================================
>Central Research Institute for Chemistry, Hungarian Academy of Sciences
>H-1525 Budapest, P.O.Box 17, Hungary. Phone:+361-325-7900; Fax:+361-325-7554
>http://www.osp.chemres.hu/jalso/~jalso_h.htm
>============================================================================
>
Kedves George!
        Koszonom egyeterto velemenyedet, a tied volt az egyetlen ami 
egyaltalan 
reflektalt a felhivas ilyenten valo felfogasara, beleertve magat a felhivot 
is. Az Ilonka neni bizonyara alaposan megsertodott es visszavonult. Igazi 
magyar megoldas mindenki mondja a magaet, aki valamit csinalni akar azt 
lehordjak a
sarga foldig, a javaslattevo az megsertodik es megkeseredve visszavonul
ahelyett, hogy megprobalna beepiteni a kritikat es tokeletesiteni a
javaslatat, vegul is nem tortenik semmi. Az erzekeny gondolkodo tipusok
kiszorulnak, a sakaloke, Torgyanoke, Csurkake es Hornoke marad a szin.
Biztos vagyok benne hogy 
Teged nem sertett a fenti nevek ilyanten valo parositasa. 
        En a magam reszerol tanacstalan vagyok, mert tenylag szivesen 
segitettem
volna a magam szereny modjan egy raszorulo nagycsaladnak, mert magam is
ilyen korulmenyek kozott nottem fel.

Udv    Keri Imre

In article >,  (George
Szaszvari) wrote:

> In article >,
 (T. M. Lutas) says:
> 
> Draga Lutas,
> 
> I'm for people learning and using a diversity of languages. It is a good
> idea to have a national language for administration purposes, etc, but I
> dislike the implication that people should need to forget their cultural 
> language. Take tri-lingual Belgium, for instance; it has its problems, we
> know, but it is still one of the most culturally interesting countries in
> Europe just because of that diversity (of course, many Belgians would get
> on their anti-Fleming/Walloon hobbyhorse and dispute this...oh, well.)

When was the last time that the different ethnicities of Belgium were set 
against each other in war. When was the last time that irredentism made
for territorial shifts? In Romania this last time was WW II. There are 
plenty of people left around from that generation. Is it surprising that
irredentism among hungarians bothers Romanians more than the Fleming/
Walloon controversy does the Belgians? 

> Granted, it is useful to be able to communicate in the predominant language 
> of the country (USA, UK, wherever) but plenty of peoples (Arab, Indo-Pak, 
> Chinese, etc,) maintain a firm grip on their languages and cultures while
> contributing to the economy. 

The Chinese in the US group into a neighborhood in the first generation but
then just like the Arabs, Indians, etc. they move out into the suburbs for
the most part as soon as they can afford to. The cultural ties are kept but
for most it is a shading of the distinctive american experience that all 
the second generation people are steeped in. Even the hungarian/romanian
conflict has finally been subsumed around here. The last street fights
I've heard of around here happened in Roebling, NJ in the late 1970's. I
find this a good thing that the conflict has risen to the level of words 
without fists. As the person who described it to me said "the young people's 
hearts weren't in it anymore, they were all americans". 

Irredentist hungarians are as responsible as those who throw rocks at 
beehives. It does you no good to complain about the stings. The only 
problem is that you end up getting a great deal of innocents stung as
well.

> It depends on the richness and strength of
> their original culture and I would argue that a well-educated non-English
> speaker would be able to adapt pretty quickly to an English speaking 
> environmenbt when necessary. Plenty of English-only speakers comprise the
> unemployed, poor, homeless, etc, in both USA and UK. Perhaps most of your
> lettuce field workers are uneducated migrants from south of the border?

Aside from blacks (a uniquely unassimilated group) non-english speakers
comprise a much higher percentage of the poor than english speakers when
you take into account that english speakers are a much larger pool.

> I found Hispanics and Chinese much better represented in the banking 
> business in California than any equivalent banks in the UK, for instance.
> Cupertino, one of the most affluent towns in Silicon Valley, is almost
> totally Chinese, too.

Silicon valley imports chinese computer programmers by the boatload. When
a population is all college educated or better, all in the same field, and
all in the same locality, special conditions can occur. There are managers
in that valley who can go all day just on mandarin. 

Of course the hungarian ethnic population in transylvania is not selected
for intelligence, highly marketable skills, and guaranteed employment on
entry into the country as the Cupertino chinese are. There is a normal 
curve of intelligence, job training, and every other feature that 
differentiates an imported workforce and a minority with generation long
roots. In this case, not speaking the language is a definite negative.

> >In New York City, taxi drivers now have to speak english by law. You cannot
> >get a license to drive a cab without speaking the language. Since taxis are
> >a great tool for upward economic mobility you can see how the non-english 
> >speaking immigrants either better learn english or they are going to be more
> >limited in their prospects. 
> 
> That's fair enough. I don't see a problem with the taxi law. Having a 
> commonly understood language (for fares, place names, etc) in such a 
> public service/enterprise seems reasonable and doesn't mean taxi drivers
> are *assimilated* or abandoning their culture by learning a few words of 
> English. 

Here is where perhaps I should have been more clear earlier. There are two
poles of integration and isolation. Most people steer a path between them.
I'll teach my kids the mother tongue but will I drive out of my way to go
to an ethnic church? I'll subscribe to an ethnic newspaper but will I pay
for ethnic dancing lessons for the kids? All of these choices have pluses
and minuses. The whole situationg gets very complex, very quickly. This is
why I am simplifying so we can retain some form of coherence to this 
discussion. 

No, a few words of English do not make you fully assimilated. But many the
parent has been which let their maternal tongue instruction slip so that
their children could teach them enough english to get a job and keep it.
Again, it all comes down to choices.

> But aren't there plenty of thriving businesses in NY where the
> ownership and staff are from one ethnic group speaking largely their own
> non-English language (using only English when necessary)?

Yes, and they are made fun of and people end up getting ticked off at them
for it. There isn't an american who hasn't heard an indian 7-11 employee 
joke. Or an arab gas station attendant joke. English is a competitive 
advantage. This doesn't mean that you cannot succeed in the US without it
just as you can succeed in Romania without knowing romanian. What you can't
do is elevate individual cases to the level of the entire group. If 1% of
the dominant language population is rich perhaps 0.5% of the minority will
be rich. Where the dominant language ethnics have 20% of the population in
poverty the ethnic minority might have 30%.

> >I am an immigrant in the US. I have had to make choices as to how much of my
> >culture do I wish to keep. I fully recognize that if I had not learned
> >English I would be condemned to a miserable ghetto existence of poverty. I
> >chose to spend time speaking and reading Romanian even though I know I could
> >be doing other things that would benefit myself more economically. 
> 
> If speaking and reading Romanian gives you strength and a feeling of self-
> respect then it's very valuable. Few people concentrate only on economic
> matters. What kind of a life would that be? 

As all things in life, these choices are trade-offs. You try to maximize 
your gains while minimizing your losses. What my whole point is that
I don't think that the irredentists realize that there is such a trade-off
and any disadvantage that naturally appears due to the barriers raised by
non-assimilation is viewed by them as conscious discrimination that must
be condemned. Of course the condemnations get the romanians ticked off at
the hungarians and you end up with just another spiral down the toilet 
bowl of hate.

> Getting back to the main thread, I would applaud a Romanian government 
> that invested in cultivating such diversity that would lead to an Open
> Society in Romania. It even used to do so up to a point (Brasov Germans,
> etc) but these days there seems to a popular trend in Romania to go in 
> exactly the opposite direction (as is happening in Slovakia.) I can 
> appreciate that a colourful rivalry with bordering ethnic groups and 
> various historical empires have made many Romanians wary of so-called non-
> Romanian Romanians (if you know what I mean). but the first lesson of 
> history is: look back, but don't stare! I would also like to see the 
> Hungarian government doing something similar...

Fair enough. Let's end this thread on the agreement that both sides should
practice tolerance. Romanians should forget about the Tisza and Hungarians
should forget about reclaiming Transylvania. Tolerance and diversity would
be a great benefit to both countries. 

DB

-- 
Romanian Political Pages now are available
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Hey, all the credit belongs to you fellows..!   :-)

me

Followup-To: soc.culture.african.american,soc.culture.austria,soc.culture.balti
cs,soc.culture.intercultural,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.mag
yar,soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.romanian,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.ukra
inian,soc.culture.
r
References: > > <316AEF63.
>
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Distribution: 
                 ** Posted from soc.culture.romanian **

Dan K. ) wrote:

: > > :I wish all a truly happy Easter on the remembrance day of the Lord's
: > > :Resurrection.  It is unbelievable but true that Jesus of Nazareth was
: > > :truly the Son of God and the long awaited Messiah of the Prophets of
: > > :Israel.

: > Yes, The Messiah has risen, wether some "good" people agree with it or
: > not. They are so affraid to read the prophets that they ( the "good"

If yoshka was/is Messiah, why all the wars and the destruction in the last
2000 years? 

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One language for all           |      Unu por chiuj,
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In article >,  () wrote:
[...]
>Obviously not including the Kader Jugend you've been associated with
>around the HIX "insiders".  With that background, I don't expect you to
>be even close to objective here.
[...]
Sorry to interrupt but it sounds like "" :)
Watch out!


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

Gyula Szokoly > wrote:
>
>  It is, sorry. The original post of the thread started on legal
>grounds. Everybody noticed it, except You. To decide wheter Elek is
>guilty by law is possible. Public opinion is a different matter.

Started on legal ground ...  Now that's a nice vague statement.
I guess mentioning a law suit can qualify as "starting on leagal
ground".

>What public? Which subset of the population?

Obviously not including the Kader Jugend you've been associated with
around the HIX "insiders".  With that background, I don't expect you to
be even close to objective here.

Your whole stand on this issue is not only revealing but absurd.
Here we have a guy gleefully bragging about some private e-mail of
somebody else that could only have gotten to him without the permission
of the sender and the recipient, and when the original owners of that
communication take exception to that, accusing Elek with being involved
in a crime, your only problem is with some technicalities of the
charges, and not a word of disapproval of Elek's action!  Great!

>  You made fun of a system administrator using the term 'hacker' properly.
>If you claim better knowledge of computers than a sysadmin, I guess
>you are a 'good computer expert'.

I tell you what: try out your theory about the word "hacker" in one of
the Linux news groups and see whose definition is shared there.
And that's where the REAL programers hang out, you know.

Who was that system administrator you were talking about?  BTW, there
are SysAdmins and there are SysAdmins.  I was talking about real ones,
not the kind I had to dictate the commands to accomplish the task I had
no privilege to do myself.  Yes, we have a few of those at my employer,
even after the large lay-offs last year.  When I was talking about
SysAdmins, I meant the kind of knowledge Hollosi and Fekete obviously
have.

>>Second, I never stated that it was definitely lifted from my machine.  
>  Than just what do You state? Come clear, please.

Geesh!  Were you sleeping all this time?  I always stated that the
sender's node was the likely target of the break-in, especially because
the university environment makes it more likely.  After all, most
potential suspects are also associated with universities in some
capacity or another.
>
>  Here I suggest a bit more reading. Sending a sensitive e-mail without strong
>encyption is (no offense) is stupid. There are about 1000 opportunities
>to intercept it. I'm not saying that it's OK to read it.

Sure you not saying it!  Just suggesting it ...

>  This shows how little You know about computers and internet. The
>security of your account has nothing to do with your e-mail 'laying
>around'.

Oh, I know that, too, rest assured.  I was just answering what you were
suggesting might have happened.  I know that any node routing Internet
traffic can capture anything that goes through it.  But due to the huge
volume, I doubt anybody would bother doing it, unless they targeted
somebody for it.  This will hardly make Elek look good though.
>
>  No, blame the victim *and* the offender. Do You lock your house?

I wonder how you would react if somebody aired your private letters
in public.
>
> I don't even see what was the
>point of bringing it up on this forum (reaching millions, probably).

For the simple reason that Elek showed the "evidence" in this forum.
He obviously meant harm with it and now he is getting what he was asking
for.

>If Ilona thinks there was a crime, there are legal procedures to settle
>the matter.

It is under way.

> Why do we have to know about it? Is this so relevant to
>the hungarian culture?

Why don't you ask Elek about it?  Who is Elek to you why you are
protecting him so much?

> Yes, e-mails are stollen/lost. Hungarians do
>it, americans do it, christians do it, ateists do it, etc. No surprise.

And let us be content with it!  Great!

Joe

Followup-To: soc.culture.african.american,soc.culture.austria,soc.culture.balti
cs,soc.culture.intercultural,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.mag
yar,soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.romanian,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.ukra
inian,soc.culture.

r
References: > >
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Distribution: 

                     ** Posted from soc.culture.romanian **

Juris Kaza ) wrote:
: James Garner wrote:

: >         Jesus was not the Messiah, and was not the "Son of God". He was
: > the bastard son of an adulterous woman, who offended the Romans with his
: > mutterings and in the end could not even save himself, let alone the
: > Jewish people, and was nailed on a piece of wood for his efforts. And the
: > only thing that rises is dough, not your "God-on-a-stick."

: Lets all build the fellowship of Christians and Jews! Dan K.'s post 
: was out of place but was no cause for a tirade against his beliefs. I 
: don't think Jews would appreciate a similar attack on their beliefs, 
: i.e. celebrating the correction of a wrong turn in the Sinai (whenever 
: the Children of Israel marched into the hands of the Egyptians, then 
: got themselves out again. If Moses had had a AAA map, half your 
: holidays would be gone)...that's just a mild joke, but why go on? 
: There is no need to trade venomous religious insults.

These are two unsimilar situations. The guy who posted in the Jewish 
newsgroup his christian beliefs deserved it completely. Let him write 
what he wants in one of the many christian newsgroups about yoshka. The 
Jews have their opinion about him and don't want, and don't need, to hear 
him. 

It would've been OK if he asked the Jews' opinion about the bastard, or,
as you ask, about the wrong turn in Sinai. BTW, do you know that the Jews
needed 40 years to wander a distance that can be walked in less than 2
weeks? You may ask - why? 
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         *** Learn Esperanto - the International Language! ***
                     *** BBS: 1-905-731-2667 ***
One language for all           |      Unu por chiuj,
the second for everyone!       |     la dua por chiu!

1 ) wrote:
:  Are you tired of being lonely or bored?  You can quickly and easily
:  meet singles that are desparately seeking love & relationships.  You
:  can meet someone in your local area or nationwide .  Our innovative
:  voice mail will allow you to listen to thousands of singles that
:  really want to meet someone.  They will tell you all about themselves;
:  likes & dislikes, hobbies, physical features, what they find
:  attractive about the opposite sex ect.  If you hear someone you like,
:  and you will,  then leave a message for that person. The next thing
:  you'll need to do is get ready for that person to to return your
:  interest in them with a phone call to you.  Don't you want to
:  experience that wonderfully nervous feeling of meeting someone new?
:  Then try our service & broaden your social life a bit.  Simply dial
:  the 1-900 number below.  At our system's prompt, enter the area code
:  for the location that you want to search in.  From there you will find
:  yourself listening to people of the opposite sex that want to meet you
:  really bad.  So go ahead, make that call.   You have nothing to loose
:  except lonliness or  boredom .              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^    

Except a few bucks, right?

      GET LOST !!!!!!!!!!!
      POST YOUR CRAP SOMEWHERE ELSE
       
      <<peter>>
  
:  
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:                          Serv-U (619) 645-8434

In article >,  (Ferenc Istvan
Vaski) wrote:

>  (T. M. Lutas) wrote:
> 
> >In article >,  (Ferenc Istvan
> >Vaski) wrote:
> 
> >> .....wow....are you ever a product of your peoples propaganda....of
> >> course you believe that the Romanians were there long before anyone or
> >> anything for that matter....even before something wiggled out of the
> >> primordial ooze...there where Romanians there according to you and
> >> those that wishfully think like you...so where are the traces of this
> >> brilliant Daco-Roman civilization?..your theories have become the
> >> great Romanian National Myth.....
> 
> >I just posted an announcement that the Vatican is opening up its documents
> >on early Romanian Christianity for exhibition. I would say that they are
> >a neutral source that is only interested in the truth on this matter. Some
> >of those traces you so scornfully asked for are there.
> 
> >I await to hear how this Polish pope is partaking of the extension of the
> >"great Romanian National Myth". But of course everybody is unjust to the
> >Hungarians, you most of all.

> ...all aside I would be interested in more information regarding
> this...as for being unjust etc....your sarcasm unwarranted...

So who is sarcastic? You are a millstone around your own people's neck.
You disturb ethnic relations with your transilvania will always be hungarian
BS and provoke people like me to start re-assessing how far hungarian/
romanian relations have really progressed and isn't it a bit early to start
making friends. This does nobody any good, least of all the hungarian minority
inside transylvania. Irrespective of the correctness of either of our 
positions, they are a minority now and they are not going to become a 
part of a greater Hungary. 

I am reassured by others of your own ethnicity who claim your opinions to 
be fringe but every time a majority starts worrying about a minority 
starting trouble too much time and effort have to be expended in repairing 
relations instead of furthering them. 

To get more information about the exhibits try these websites:
 http://www.christusrex.org/
 http://www.vatican.va/

No guarantees but an e-mail to the webmaster might be productive.

DB

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