Hali again Joe!
>
>Sorry, Aniko, but you shouldn't have seen the second posting.  A message
>came back to me saying that my post was already posted and I assumed that
>was that.  I actually wanted to send another post but it got lost in
>cyberspace somewhere.
{...}
Wwrroonngg bud!  Immediately after receipt of this, the cyberlost found
it's route ... assume, that it was not isolated to my weeny box.
>
>Since there have been no responses to 'Magyar klise'k' I was begining to
>think that they don't exist in Hungarian.  However, that can't be the case.
> Just read anything by Lippai ur.  His repetitive comments about 'mocskos
>kommonistak' is starting to sound like a cliche'.
{...}
I'm sure that there are.  Still drawing blanks though.  However, picking up
from where your fingers left off; say specifically your last statement -
perhaps we can add "Paco's hot dogs", (no negative pun  Bandi ... really
enjoyed all of your posts:-) ).  Lo've'r, Roma csa'vo'? .... although not
exactly fitting your specs, "these kinda like fit just the same"... know
what I mean?

Best!
Aniko

Thanks Denes!  It's appreciated, it's cute and it sends a message too.  To
top all, it's a treat to read hungarian poems:-)

Regards,
Aniko

Ciao Bandi;

Getting the message that you're being a lousy correspondent ....?  God
forbid you to have a life aside from Email?:-)

Also - a quick note for gratitude.  Neat story(ies).   Great posts...
enjoyed ... Gotta visit sometime:-), for a taste of a "hot dog"!

Best,
Aniko

In article >,
 says...
>
>Actually, I don't believe that they were nomadic late last
>century.  They moved on because they weren't wanted.  There was no place
>for them in Hungarian society.  Might it not be more accurate to call
them
>refugees, rather than nomads?


I am terribly sorry, Joe, but yes, the "valyogos ciganyok" were nomads
not only in the last century, but this one too.  Those who wanted to go
school, could.  Most musicians finished the Liszt Ferenc Academy of
music.  I have no idea what happened with them after the revolution, so I
can't form any opinion about the present day situation.

Agnes

Quo vadis, Domine?

Agnes

Sam, I wanted to write you a long time ago.  Half of what you write is
lost on me because you are not using wrap-around and 1/3 of the rows are
going into space.  However, it must be only me, because everybody else is
enthusiastically replying to your messages.

Agnes

Just a note, Bandi, that I loved both of your messages.

Agnes

In article >, "Miklos K. Hoffmann"
> writes:

>
>To the "bystanders" :
>If it were in this country, or if I would live there, I would
>take Mr. Stove to the courts for this statement. From this dis-
>tance, it would be shooting mice with heavy weapons.

And you would be bounced out immediately on your butt. I gather we can add
complete ignorance of American libel law to your growing list of disabilities.

>
>I am not going to argue at this level. I have no problems wrestling
>with diametrally different opinions - especially if I, or if all sides
>learn. But I stop communicating with individuals and try to avoid
>contact with them, when the style degenerates, when they become coarse,
>rude, vulgar and unfair. Some weeks ago, I think Jeliko quoted the
>saying : If one wrestles with pigs, he will get filthy and the pigs
>enjoy it. Well, it is similar.
>
>> about whether or not I'd acknowledge some of the
>> mistreatment of groups here in the States. I pointed out to you
>
>???
>
>> that I had
>> raised the question of the treatment of
>> blacks in the U.S. at least twice in this thread.
>
>???
>
>> If you can't take the heat,  stay out of the kitchen.
>
>I normally enjoy heat. But coarse, rude transactions somehow
>REMIND me of arrogant representatives of superior races, ideologies
>and isms. And they disgust me.


Hey, whaddaya know? You spelled "coarse" correctly this time out of the chute.
Now why don't you piss off, oh representative of a nationality renowned for its
humble and peace-loving history, and get
bent? And please kill-file me in future. Flaming prevaricating wimps like you
gets a tad boring after a while.
Sam Stowe


"As Bob is my witless..."
-- Angelica Pickles, "Rugrats"

In article >, "Andrew J.
Rozsa" > writes:

>If Santayana was correct and (I paraphrase) those who don't learn from
>history
>are doomed to repeat it, then that explains history: it repeats itself.
>Sorry.

No, no. Those who don't learn from history are most likely Red Sox fans.
Sam Stowe, who has finally
forgiven Bill Buckner


"As Bob is my witless..."
-- Angelica Pickles, "Rugrats"

In article >, "Andrew J.
Rozsa" > writes:

>Subject:       Re: Numerus.....
>From:  "Andrew J. Rozsa" >
>Date:  Wed, 2 Apr 1997 03:00:43 -0400
>
>At 12:00 AM 4/2/97 -0400, mahman (the Stoner) writes:

Hey, Beavis! He said "Stoner." That rhymes with "boner." Heh, heh, heh, heh...

>
>>>You must enjoy this banter a lot, otherwise you would remember that we
>>>settled the issue regarding national cognitive dissonance some time ago.
>>
>>Did we? I remember sending you a detailed private e-mail trying to discuss
>the
>>issue at greater length and you never replied. I don't know that we've
>settled
>>anything about national cognitive
>>dissonance because you bailed on me, bubba.What have we come to when one
>>Southerner can't trust another one to muse philosophical and at an ad
>nauseum
>>length?
>
>You mean you didn't get my telepathic messages? Now who is rotten kin?

I guess I should take the tin foil down off the windows. But if I do, the dog
will start talking to me again.

>
>The problem with these new-fangled mailreaders is that they tuck away
>mail in places I can never find them. Outta sight....But will get back to ya.
>Honest injun.

I await with interest your response.

>
>>>What do you think is the rationale in the founding of the (American)
>>>Institute for the Revision of History?
>>
>>Beats the hell out of me. They didn't call me or send me a membership
>brochure.
>>I guess that's what I get for not listening to Rush.
>
>No, you are kidding, yes?

No, I'm not kidding. If there's one God-given right most Americans are gonna
exercise to the utmost, it's the right to be a kook. I only get worried when
they try to run things and get fixated on
arming themselves. And I'm still not gonna listen to Rush.

>
>According to Michener (who does his research) there was a letter smuggled out
>of a Polish concentration camp in the early 1940s, but the then Secretary
>of State
>decided to put it in the back of the drawer, where it was found after the
>war.

That would be Cordell Hull. I can imagine Hull being cold-blooded enough to do
exactly what Michener describes. (Hull was a firm, visionary Secretary of State
at a time when the job would have
literally killed a lesser man. He helped found the United Nations, won a Nobel
Prize and absolutely terrified the Japanese embassy staff in the days leading
up to Pearl Harbor. I've always envisioned
Hull as a Harry Truman type with a little bit more polish) I doubt he would
have hidden the letter out of some desire to re-write history. More likely, he
deep-sixed it as part of an effort to avoid
a national debate on what the U.S. should or could do to put the death camps
out of business. That could have been a real complicating factor in the
prosecution of the war.

>
>He did it for the same reason that the IRH denies that the Holocaust has ever
>happened. (Of course, they also maintain that man never walked on the moon,
>and what we saw was a TV trick).

Don't you think Hull would have burned the letter or shredded it and flushed it
down the commode if he were seeking to re-write history? According to Michener,
via you, he put it in a file drawer.
That tells me he intended for it to become part of the historical record at
some point. Hull died sometime in the late 1940s, so he may never have had the
opportunity to explain his action.

>
>Admitting to be tacitly or actively participating the kind of atrocity that
>the
>extermination of millions of people would entail is so abhorrent that the
>subconscious can't bear it.
>
>Not let's see who can guess why anyone would deny the walk on the moon?
>
>How come we never talk about the MILLIONS killed in Cambodia?

I talk about it with the guy who comes to help me do yard work sometimes. He
lived through it.

>
>>
>>>How can we expect the psyche of a nation that has been stomped
>>>on for a thousand years to bear the burden of responsibility
>>>for something that is emotionally and ethically unacceptable?
>>
>>Here, you do have a point. Does that mean we should refrain from making any
>>effort to strengthen it to bear such a burden? The past, after all, is past.
>>I'd just hate to see it re-occur in the
>>future. As much good faith as whites and blacks put into the civil rights
>>struggle here in the States, we still haven't come a long ways in thirty or
>>forty years in terms of accepting one another as
>>individuals. Collectively, things are better for blacks because they have
>much
>>more access to good education and good jobs than before. But individually?
>We
>>still segregate ourselves outside the
>>classroom and the office for the most part. Given its recent history, how
>much
>>more of a challenge in this area does Hungary face?
>
>It is a matter of (dis)comfort. Be that political, economic, or spiritual.
>If one is
>disenchanted to the extreme one finds a scapegoat. Historically this is
>clearly supported. A depressed, beaten, full of Angst German nation after
>WW I, comes back phoenix-like by cashing in on such discomfort. The
>scapegoat became clear (sic!) on Kristallnacht.
>
>Did the plantation owners hate the Negroes, or was it the poor white
>trash who felt threatened by emancipation?

I don't know that they hated them as much as they feared them. North Carolina,
like many other parts of the Upper South, had many more independent yeoman
farmers than it did large-scale plantations.
(Talk about an interesting thread in comparing historical farming patterns here
with those in Hungary) Most of the "white trash," therefore, was pretty
self-sufficient, didn't own slaves and resented
the rich white plantation owners who did and who ran the state legislature for
their own benefit. Emancipation didn't change that pattern. Industrialization
after 1880 and the switch to tobacco
production from subsistence farming played a much greater role -- economic
unrest and change. It's not coincidental that the move toward Jim Crow laws and
other, more violent manifestations of white
hatred toward blacks arose during this time. North Carolina's worst race riot
occurred fully 30 years or so after the end of the war in Wilmington. I would
imagine Hungary's problems in this regard
have a similar source. Look at the explosive growth of Budapest after 1867.

>When women entered the labor force en masse, did the folks on the
>top feel uncomfortable, or was it the bottom-layer that was about
>to lose jobs?

Trick question since women had always been a major factor in the labor force
here, both during the small-scale farming era and the textile mill/tobacco
manufacturing era which supplanted it. I'd like
to know whether this was true in Hungary as well.

>
>Give Hungary  the solid economic comfort it desires and the spiritual
>comfort it needs and most of the "ethnic," "racial," and "religious"
>hatred will go by the wayside. I am sure that one of the many historians
>who read this list will agree that in the "golden" eras of Hungary, anti-
>semitism was low.
>
>>>You are flogging a dead horse, methinks.
>>
>>I doubteth not that thou'rt right on the money. Still, it keeps me off the
>>streets.
>
>I said that because we cannot expect one to assume (accept) the pain
>that insight would entail.

Yes, but should we blithely concede them their prejudices?
Sam Stowe



"As Bob is my witless..."
-- Angelica Pickles, "Rugrats"

This is the first time anybody raised this problem. I am using Word 7 which sho
uld format automatically.
My reading of the thread which I answered was the historical basis of the probl
em and it was in that sense that I answered. I know from several people of my f
ather's generation that in the 1930's at least there was still a large nomadic 
element among the gypsies and that they were not settled at least officially un
til after WW II. Again I heard that at the turn of the century Archduke József 
(József föherceg) had a model village built for gypsies on one of his propertie
s. The gypsies in the course of a year burnt up everything burnable including d
oors and window frames and having thoroughly wrecked the houses they took off.
I think Miklos Hoffmann in his post highlights the present position in Hungary.
 
Compulsory education until age 12 was law by the end of WW I and was increasing
ly enforced during the inter-war years. 
It was difficult for the gypsies to find jobs due to their lack of education an
d popular prejudice against them. Yet some of them did and the ones that did se
ttled and became assimilated rather quickly.
In my view the problem with gypsies historically an at present is no different 
qualitatively from that experienced with Pakis, Hispanics or Australian aborigi
nes. The problem is just as intractable and governments everywhere are unsucces
sful in dealing with it.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq[SMTP:]
Sent:  Wednesday, 2 April 1997 23:01
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: numerus clausus in the U.S.

On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Denes BOGSANYI wrote:
{incidentally, your paragraph came as one line several times longer than
the 80 characters most program handles well - please try to format it
with lien breaks}

 > It all depends on the definition of nomadic. If we think of nomads as
living in tents and driving painted carts with horses of doubtful
ownership then definitely the world has moved on and the gypsy lifestyle
with it. Then again it is well known that there is an influx of gypsies
from Romania in particular and they like to settle down in the main
railway stations in Budapest and I certainly would think of that as a
nomadic lifestyle.

 Please define "well-known" ;-<. As a matter of fact there is no
significant influx - most gypsies in question are from within Hungary (for
one thing those from abroad could be deported - and they may easily be, if
hanging around the stations). And most people 'settled' in the stations
are homeless but not travelling, so I'd hardly call that nomadic (nor
would I assume that it is to their liking). Also, while some of the
station-dwellers are indeed Gipsies (who make up a disproportionately high
portion of destitutes, after all), that's not typical: neither the
majority of those staying there are Gipsy, nor most of the Gipsies seen
around live there.

--
 Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq >
Please note that the above is my new preferred address!
 My primary FAQ archive is presently at <ftp://ftp.alt.net/hungarian/>
       * I WILL NEVER, EVER, BUY SPAMVERTISED PRODUCTS! *

At 06:45 PM 4/2/97 -0500, Ferenc wrote:

>I don't recall the article entitled "Easter week", so I can't comment on it.

        You know what, Ferenc, I will send it to you because I don't think
that you ought to miss it. I myself almost did, until Gabor Farkas called my
attention to it on this list.

> But here is what Jozsi Hollosi wrote:
>
>"Sajnos mostanra a moderalatlan forum ellen folytatott askalodas lesullyedt
>a feljelentesek es hivatalos ragalmazasok szintjere, amelyek ellen - bar
>nyilvanvaloan alaptalanok - hadakozni, es magyarazkodni sem idom, sem
>energiam."
>
>Rough translation: "Unfortunately by now the attacks against the un-moderated
>forum have sunk to the level of  denunciations and official libeling that --
>while obviously unfounded -- I have neither the time nor the energy to fight
>or reason against".
>
>I think it is clear from the above that Jozsi closed the FORUM/SZABAD against
>his better judgement because his hand was forced.

        Isn't it interesting that to me it is not at all clear who forced
Jozsi's hands against his better judgment. As far as I am concerned it could
very well have been those noisy people who most likely accused him of
partiality.
        And perhaps I should send you another piece of mail I received today
and then perhaps you might understand better that there were some people on
that list who would do anything because they have serious psychological
problems.
        Eva Balogh

aheringer wrote:
>
> Quo vadis, Domine?
>
> Agnes
 ...et respice FINEM!
Was that a happy end in the sense of contemporary America?
( Europe,... )
Miklos

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 04:09 PM 4/2/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >Hallo Joe,
> >"Pakis"? Help me. Possibly I should know, I don4t know.
>
> "Pakis" was/is a derogatory term applied to people from Pakistan, India,
> Sri Lanka, etc..
>
> Joe Szalai
Thanks, Joe. As I already confessed, one never stops learning.
MKH

Ferenc Novak wrote:

>  But here is what Jozsi Hollosi wrote:
>
> "Sajnos mostanra a moderalatlan forum ellen folytatott askalodas lesullyedt
> a feljelentesek es hivatalos ragalmazasok szintjere, amelyek ellen - bar
> nyilvanvaloan alaptalanok - hadakozni, es magyarazkodni sem idom, sem
> energiam."
>
> Rough translation: "Unfortunately by now the attacks against the un-moderated
> forum have sunk to the level of  denunciations and official libeling that --
> while obviously unfounded -- I have neither the time nor the energy to fight
> or reason against".
>
> I think it is clear from the above that Jozsi closed the FORUM/SZABAD against
> his better judgement because his hand was forced.

Maybe. But THIS NOT WHAT HE SAID! I neither say your guessing is right,
nor saying it is wrong. But the argumentation becomes phony ( this
NEED NOT be deliberate, but just sloppy ) if we pretend, something
was clear qua the facts mentioned AND agreed upon DURING the argument.
Whether friend or foe, I prefer to try to avoid that. ( I am not saying,
I do always succeed :-), so, forgive the contradiction. )

>  Everyone is free to guess
> just who or what was the source of that pressure.  My guess is that it may
> have been someone who had some control over the financial, personnel or
> computer resources HIX needs to maintain its operations.  Whether that
> includes the Soros interests is open to speculation.  What is not > subject t
o
 speculation is that Jozsi did not act on his own.

Hollosi just might have gotten tired of the outcome. I could under-
stand him. It4s sometimes more a mud-battle than a "discussion"-list.
This has nothing to do with Hollosi, whom I admired for having imple-
mented these lists, but rather with the lack of a discussion culture.
Mind you, discussion, debate used to have rules agreed upon, disqua-
lifying the trespasser.

But I am not even guessing, just speculating about possible
possibilities, yours remaining one, too.
Miklos

Aniko Dunford wrote:
>
> Thanks Denes!  It's appreciated, it's cute and it sends a message too.  To
> top all, it's a treat to read hungarian poems:-)
>
> Regards,
> Aniko

"Falu vegen kurta kocsma...", Szatmar ( today "Satu Mare, Judetul
Satu Mare, Romania ), August 1947, Petoefi Sandor. By the way, that
August in Szatmar pruduced more than three dozens ( and some longer,
the longest, maybe Szecsi Maria ) of Petoefi4s poems. Augusts in
the Szatmar area are hot, fertile and full of fruit. They have
the best plum brandy - I know of - in the world, surpassing even
a Swiss Pfluemli.

Denes, I am absolutely sure, it is in your sense, we add sources
( IF WE REMEMBER, I must say for my future protection ) :-)
Miklos

Charles Mikecz Vamossy wrote:
>
> Janos Zsargo wrote:
> >
> > M.Hoffmann wrote:
> >
> > >P.S. ( and this is where Taco Bell came from? )
> >
> > No, that is a Mexican telecommunication company :-)))).
> >
> > J.Zs
> You always learn something new...   I thought it was a Southern
> California telephone company.
>
> Charlie
Well, seeing it with the eyes of a, say, Sheboygan County citizen
( in order not to get to far from our Canadian friends ) from, say,
Most-Northern Germany : isn4t that the same? :-)
Miklos

P.S. didn4t they have something like a common market there?

Denes BOGSANYI wrote:
>
> This is the first time anybody raised this problem. I am using Word 7 which
 should format automatically.

I recieve quite often single-row mails, especially from hungary. I
regarded them as problem of my browser and use NETSCAPE-Mail ( there
is an option in a roll-down menu ) to format them. Maybe, the problem is
on the other end.

Regards
Miklos

Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
> M.Hoffmann wrote:
>
> >P.S. ( and this is where Taco Bell came from? )
>
> No, that is a Mexican telecommunication company :-)))).
>
> J.Zs
Ye never stop learning!!  :-))))
MKH

This is a report on the showing of "Cry Hungary" in the Pentagon:
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Pentagon video
Date:    97-04-02 17:57:27 EST
From:    Gerebenmai
To:      Liptakbela

Bela!

A pentagonban lezajlott bensoseges es erzelemdus megemlekezes nagyon szep,
sikeres volt. Atadtuk a tablat, lukas zaszlot, Kossuth cimert . Ezek Reagan
Proklamaciojaval, Bush magyar-amerikai katonakat elismero levelevel es a
magyarazo feliratokkal a Pentagon allando kiallitasanak reszeve valtak.
Derwinski, Horton, Gen. Kircklighter (Deputy Under Secretary of the Army for
International Affairs) es meg ket generalis, meg jomagam szolottun egy-ket
szot. Szep szamban voltunk. Los Angelestol, Bostontol Philadelphiaig, New
Yorkig, New Brunswickig. Az unnepseg utan kb. 40-en maradtak a video
vetitesere. Az NBC helyi allomasa ketszer is kozvetitette a rovid egy-ket
perces beszamolot. Elegedett vagyok.

Nem tetszik a Maczo Agnes korul kialakult kontraverzia. Ugyetlen volt,
rosszul mondta amit mondott, okosabb lett volna beismerni, hogy nem volt
bolcs ahogy mondta a mondanivalojat.

Gratulalok eredmenyessegetekhez. Remelem a vegso dontes is olyan lesz
amellyel elegedettek lehetunk.

Olel,

Pista

Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format.

--------------73DB5B4036CB
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Denes ( BOGSANYI ),

you wrote :
> This is the first time anybody raised this problem....

see attached mail of old age.
Regards
Miklos

--------------73DB5B4036CB
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Message-ID: >
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 18:25:05 +0100
From: "Miklos K. Hoffmann" >
Reply-To: Am, Hang, 11, D24794, Borgstedt
Organization: Hoffmann&Hoffmann
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 DT [de]C (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Hungarian Discussion List >
Subject: Re: numerus clausus in the U.S.
References: >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Denes BOGSANYI wrote:
>
> The Hungarian language typing comes out as almost unreadable, I think due to
 your efforts to use accents which your word-processor does not support.
> If my understanding is correct you are highlighting the overwhelming hold by
 individuals and firms labelled as "Jewish" on Hungarian economic and cultural
 life.
> The extreme right was strengthening and the government was trying to placate
 them by using means which had antecedents in other countries such as England
 and the USA even if these were not officially supported there.
>
> Regards
> Dines
>
Hallo Denes,

So I was afraid. For this reason did I make the second attempt.
But how does your system work? I recieve an endlessly
long row that wouldn4t fit on a screen or on a printer.

Miklos




--------------73DB5B4036CB--

Dear Colleagues,

As you know, the World Court accepted three(3) Memorials (position papers) on
the Danube lawsuit. Two from Hungary and Slovakia and the 3rd, from the NGO
Coalition, representing "the interest of mankind" and treated it "as the
position of the friends of the Court." The NGO Coalition consists of:

Greenpeace (Slovakia),
Human Rights Advocates (USA),
International Rivers Network (USA),
Natural Heritage Institute (USA),
REFLEX (Hungary),
Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund (USA),
Slovak Rivers Network (Slovakia),
SZOPK (Slovakia),
WWF (Switzerland).

I have tried to coordinate our letter writing campaign to be consistent with
the letter campaign of the NGOs. The first generation of the 4 letters we
have been sending asked the leaders of the world to speak up for
international law and for the environment. Now, the second generation asks
them to get ready to enforce the ruling of the World Court in the fall. This
change in the tone and the goal of the letters has caused some confusion,
which can be detrimental to the effectiveness of our actions, if it results
in debate instead of action. Therefore, I would like to ask you to spend your
energies on SENDING the letters you do like and NOT on trying to influence
others on  which letter they should be sending. In other words:

1) If you agree (with the NGO position) that the Court will order Slovakia to
return the Danube into its natural riverbed and that the Court's ruling will
need international support when issued, use the new form-letters.

2) If you prefer not to name Slovakia in that letter, use the term "the
parties" instead.

3) If you prefer the old text, which does not yet deal with the issue of
enforcing the Court's ruling, send the old form-letter.

We have now gained the attention of the world's leaders. Whichever letter you
send, you are helping our cause. We must maintain and intensify this
campaign. These are now very critical weeks, let us not waste our energies in
debating, but please send the letter you like (often), collect signatures for
it, distribute it among your collegaues, keep our momentum going.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

And I just heard this morning that Australia defeated Hungary in a
soccer match played in Budapest 3:1.
It was some membersof the Hungarian team that played in the Melbourne
Olympics in 1956 and then chose to stay here that set  soccer on the
move. Now 30 years later we see the fruits of that decision
On 2 Apr 1997 11:58:49 GMT,  (George Szaszvari)
wrote:

>The great football player Ferenc Puskas is 70 today. Happy Birthday
>Maestro!
>
>One comment from an English player in the match at Budapest 1954
>(Hungary 7 England 1) was: "the Hungarian players were like things
>from outer space"  :-)
>
>134,000 spectators saw Real Madrid beat Eintracht Frankfurt 7-3 in
>the 1960 European Cup Final at Hampden Park (Puskas scored four,
>Di Stefano three). One of the greatest games of football ever (get
>the video!).
>
>Some interesting "little" facts: Puskas played a few games for the
>Spanish national side in the early sixties....apparently, Puskas
>has tiny feet...
>
>Retired in 1966 to take the unfancied Greek team Panathinaikos to
>the European Cup Final (in which they narrowly lost to the outstanding
>Ajax team of Johann Cruyff). Without Puskas, Greek football has since
>sunk without trace.
>
>The English language biography "Puskas on Puskas" is now available
>from bookshops.
>
>--
>George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
>Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * C=64/128 ..www.icpug.org.uk * NWLCC *
>


133 Osburn Drive
MACGREGOR 2615
Australia
phone and fax:61 6 2543636

At 02:44 PM 4/3/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

>But how does your system work? I recieve an endlessly
>long row that wouldn4t fit on a screen or on a printer.

        And elsewhere Miklos said that he is using Netscape-Mail. I use
Eudora-Pro (Eudora Light comes as part and parcel of the Netscape browser
and it is quite satisfactory) and I have never had any such trouble. Why
don't you use your Eudora Light?
        Eva

At 12:04 PM 4/3/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote, quoting Ferenc Novak:

>>  Everyone is free to guess
>> just who or what was the source of that pressure.  My guess is that it may
>> have been someone who had some control over the financial, personnel or
>> computer resources HIX needs to maintain its operations.  Whether that
>> includes the Soros interests is open to speculation.  What is not >
subject to
> speculation is that Jozsi did not act on his own.
>
>Hollosi just might have gotten tired of the outcome. I could under-
>stand him. It4s sometimes more a mud-battle than a "discussion"-list.
>This has nothing to do with Hollosi, whom I admired for having imple-
>mented these lists, but rather with the lack of a discussion culture.

        Bandi said something elsewhere about emotions/beliefs in other
context but these discussion groups certainly convinced me of one thing: our
sets of beliefs seem to be unshakable, and they influence everything around
us. Ferenc and I can read the same text and draw entirely different
conclusions. So did blacks and whites listened to the same OJ Simpson trial
and drew diametrically different conclusions concerning his guilt or innocence.

        At best the text is open to interpretations but I find it impossible
to read into it such far-reaching conclusions as "Jozsi did not act on his
own." I think that's quite a leap to take from the actual text, especially
if one quotes the first paragraph, which says such things as "I have fought
for six years with friends and foes alike to ensure the existence of a
non-moderated Forum. This happened in spite of my own reaction to some of
the articles containing odious opinions--but luckily always more reasonable
letters appeared, which (perhaps due to my overly optimistic nature) kept my
faith in the sober judgment of the majority."

[>Het evig kuzdottem baratokkal es ellensegekkel egyarant, hogy a HIX
>moderalatlan politikai forumot is biztosithasson. Tortent ez annak ellenere,
>hogy egynemely cikket elolvasva neha magam is nagyon elszomorodtam a
>gyuloletes velemenyeken - de szerencsere mindig joval tobb ertelmes level
>jelent meg, amelyek (talan tulzott optimizmusom miatt) fenntartottak hitemet
>a tobbseg jozan itelokepessegeben.]

        Yes, I am sure that poor Jozsi received letters from friends and
foes. Friends told him that he should close the list because it is becoming
a gathering place of the extreme right. But, as he himself says, there were
always some reasonable people which kept up his faith. And indeed, just
before a new waive of Soros-bashing began, the list looked quite respectable
mostly because certain people kept away from the list. But then they
returned with two new characters in toe and these two certainly didn't help
the intellectual level of the discussions.
        My feeling is that after the restrictions imposed on FORUM--which,
by the way, I think was the wrong thing to do--they were the foes who
attacked Jozsi because they were certain that these restrictions were
imposed on him by the "left," the "liberals," the SZDSZ, the Hungarian
government. Name it! They can come up with the darndest things. He got tired
of it. Are you surprised? I am not.
        Eva

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   URGENT

Background:
  Hungary's position in the Danube lawsuit at the International Court
of Justice in The Hague is very promising. However, even if the court
rules in favour for the environment it is possible that the Slovak
government does not accept the sentence.
  It would be useful if the World Court threatens with UN sanctions in
case of non-compliance, since this would force Slovakia to respect
the decision of the court.

What to do:
  Please ask the president of the International Court of Justice, Mr.
Schwebel, to incude a recommendation for United Nations sanctions in
case of non-compliance. Feel free to use the attached form letter.
Note that Schwebel will only take notice if he receives numerous
letters.
  Unfortunately we do not have the e-mail address. Please
do not hesitate to send him a fax or a snail mail.  PLEASE
ACT!! ASK YOUR FRIENDS TO JOIN YOUR REQUEST!!
  Fax number:  ++31-70-3649-928

*************************************************************

<date>

The Honorable Stephen Schwebel
President of the International Court of Justice
Carnegieplein 2, 2517 KJ,
Den Haag
The Netherlands
(FAX:  ++31-70-3649-928)

Dear Mr. President:

Congratulations on your well-deserved appointment as the new
President of the International Court of Justice.  Your professional
standing and reputation is sure to further increase the reputation of
the Court.

This year, for the first time in history, your Court will decide on
an environmental lawsuit concerning the Danube. The precedent you set
will affect all humankind.  In ruling on the dispute between Hungary
and Slovakia, you and your fellow judges can establish that rivers,
forests, and oceans are not the sole properties of nations, and that
national governments do not have the right to destroy the planet's
unique ecosystems, even if they happen to be within their borders..

Mr. President, your Court has already set a precedent when it
accepted the Memorial of the international NGOs. You have established
a second precedent by visiting the Danube wetlands during the first
week of April. You have seen that the ecosystem of the Szigetkoz is
dying due to the loss of groundwater, caused by the rerouting of the
Danube. This region used to supply the Danube with the oxygen needed
to digest the wastes. Now the "lung" of the river has been cut out
and the dammed river has been turned into an open sewer. Shipping has
suffered because of flimsy construction and because the dam can not
handle ice. In addition, half of the populations of Dobrohost, Vojka
and Bodiky have already fled, because of their isolation and the
physical danger they face.

Dear Mr. President, you are fully aware of the above and it is
certainly not our intention to belabor the obvious or to try to
influence your decision. What we are concerned about is not the
ruling you will make, but the enforcement of that ruling. If in the
fall you rule that the Danube must be returned into its natural
riverbed, that ruling might not be carried out if not backed by
sanctions. Therefore, Mr. President, we would respectfully suggest
that you consider setting yet another new precedent by incuding in
your ruling a recommendation for United Nations sanctions in case of
non-compliance.


Respectfully,

<Your name, title and address>

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 06:45 PM 4/2/97 -0500, Ferenc wrote:
>
> >I don't recall the article entitled "Easter week", so I can't comment on it.
>
>         You know what, Ferenc, I will send it to you because I don't think
> that you ought to miss it.

Nor should I.
>
> > But here is what Jozsi Hollosi wrote:
> >
, amelyek ellen - bar
> >nyilvanvaloan alaptalanok - hadakozni, es magyarazkodni sem idom, sem
> >energiam."
> >

> >I think it is clear from the above that Jozsi closed the FORUM/SZABAD agains
t
> >his better judgement because his hand was forced.
>
>         Isn't it interesting that to me it is not at all clear who forced
> Jozsi's hands against his better judgment. As far as I am concerned it could
> very well have been those noisy people who most likely accused him of
> partiality.

See a mailing from today, independent of this on of
MKH

>         And perhaps I should send you another piece of mail I received today

You4d rather not. But that one is "just" a vulgar escalation
of the mutual hostile transactions spreading out on the lists.

MKH

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 02:44 PM 4/3/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>
> >But how does your system work? I recieve an endlessly
> >long row that wouldn4t fit on a screen or on a printer.
>
>         And elsewhere Miklos said that he is using Netscape-Mail. I use
> Eudora-Pro (Eudora Light comes as part and parcel of the Netscape browser
> and it is quite satisfactory) and I have never had any such trouble. Why
> don't you use your Eudora Light?
>         Eva
See my othe note
M

At 06:07 PM 4/3/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote, quoting me:

>>         And perhaps I should send you another piece of mail I received today
>
>You4d rather not. But that one is "just" a vulgar escalation
>of the mutual hostile transactions spreading out on the lists.

        The piece of mail in question is not the one you saw. This was a
piece of private correspondence from those people who often uttered "odious
opinions" on the Forum. That was yesterda's fun mail. Today's fun mail was
public and thank God the writer "repult."
        ESB

Kedves Bélabátyó,
folyik a helyszini szemle. A szakértők 50 m-rel a bírák mögött,
hangsúlyozottan hallótávolságon kívül követik őket. Helyi lakosok szerint a
szlovákok néhány napja az eddiginél több vizet engednek a Duna hazai
szakaszára. Ugyanakkor azt állítják, hogy a legutóbbi Horn-Meciar találkozó
óta 400 köbméter jön át folyamatosan.

S.Stowe wrote:

>>>I've been interested in Hungary for nearly 15 years and have spent most of
>>>that time trying to learn as much about it as I could.
>>
>>You mean this was your main occupation for 15 years ?!? And why, why did you
>>spend all of this time to study the history of a tiny little country in
>>Europe? It is kind, though! (I am serious!) If you don't want to answer
>>that's OK, this is getting to be too personal.
>
>Of course I didn't make it my main occupation. I like Hungarian cuisine,
>literature and music, the history is fascinating and Hungarians themselves are
>wonderful folks.

So, may I draw the conclusion that you know about Hungary and the Hungarians
from books, tapes, etc. You did not indicate that you had ever been in Hungary
or lived among Hungarians.

>Judging from what I read on this newsgroup and others and in those Hungarian
>papers which have a Web presence, there are a lot of your countrymen who aren'
t
>willing to honestly address the country's recent past with regard to its
>treatment of some ethnic groups.

So, how many is that lot, 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, etc. How representative is
this sample?

>There are a lot of people (too many for my comfort) in this country who
>want to arm themselves with automatic weapons and explosives
>and start a race war. They have blown up a federal court house, killed people
>in several parts of the country and I have no problem with repudiating them.
>They represent a strain of American history

So, can we say "the idea of race war and killing en masse has a great credit
in the American society" or not?

>I'm willing to live without quite so many romantic illusions about my
>country. How about you?

Maybe you are willing but you don't. Your giberish about the wolf-packs
in WWII and 'we fought against the German barbarism in WWI' show just the
opposite. And as far as your illusions about the world concerns you are not
just living with illusions but you live in a virtual reality. I think if
someone wants to send mass-murderers to third-world countries for UN mission
or wants the US has a NAFTA-like triety with a country several thousand
miles away from North-America, it means that this person lost the
contact with the reality.

>Okay, a few more questions:
>1) What are you studying?
>2) Where else did you apply? You strike me as being a pretty smart guy. I can'
t
>believe someone else turned you down.

These things have nothing to do with our subject. I did not ask you where you
work and why there.

J.Zs

Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
> S.Stowe wrote:
>
> >>>I've been interested in Hungary for nearly 15 years and have spent most of
> >>>that time trying to learn as much about it as I could.
> >>
> >>You mean this was your main occupation for 15 years ?!? And why, why did yo
u
> >>spend all of this time to study the history of a tiny little country in
> >>Europe? It is kind, though! (I am serious!) If you don't want to answer
> >>that's OK, this is getting to be too personal.
> >
> >Of course I didn't make it my main occupation. I like Hungarian cuisine,
> >literature and music, the history is fascinating and Hungarians themselves
 are
> >wonderful folks.
>
> So, may I draw the conclusion that you know about Hungary and the Hungarians
> from books, tapes, etc. You did not indicate that you had ever been in Hungar
y
> or lived among Hungarians.
>
> >Judging from what I read on this newsgroup and others and in those Hungarian
> >papers which have a Web presence, there are a lot of your countrymen who
 aren't
> >willing to honestly address the country's recent past with regard to its
> >treatment of some ethnic groups.
>
> So, how many is that lot, 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, etc. How representative is
> this sample?
>
> >There are a lot of people (too many for my comfort) in this country who
> >want to arm themselves with automatic weapons and explosives
> >and start a race war. They have blown up a federal court house, killed peopl
e
> >in several parts of the country and I have no problem with repudiating them.
> >They represent a strain of American history
>
> So, can we say "the idea of race war and killing en masse has a great credit
> in the American society" or not?
>
> >I'm willing to live without quite so many romantic illusions about my
> >country. How about you?
>
> Maybe you are willing but you don't. Your giberish about the wolf-packs
> in WWII and 'we fought against the German barbarism in WWI' show just the
> opposite. And as far as your illusions about the world concerns you are not
> just living with illusions but you live in a virtual reality. I think if
> someone wants to send mass-murderers to third-world countries for UN mission
> or wants the US has a NAFTA-like triety with a country several thousand
> miles away from North-America, it means that this person lost the
> contact with the reality.
>
> >Okay, a few more questions:
> >1) What are you studying?
> >2) Where else did you apply? You strike me as being a pretty smart guy. I
 can't
> >believe someone else turned you down.
>
> These things have nothing to do with our subject. I did not ask you where you
> work and why there.
>
> J.Zs
Janos, this was not fair play. I think a yellow card wouldn4t do it.
M

On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Miklos K. Hoffmann wrote:
> Denes BOGSANYI wrote:
> > This is the first time anybody raised this problem. I am using Word 7 which
>  should format automatically.
 I don't think so (unless there's a special setting for email) - by
default MSW, like other word processors (as opposed to plain text
editors) do NOT insert the line breaks required for good ole' email.
Rather they treat the whole paragraph as one looong unbroken line (which
is shown formatted in Word's own window, but not in the output text - one
has to specify 'text with linebreaks' format to get that). Netscape has a
similar problem - it transmits long lines (without even telling the
user, who only sees the nicely wrapped format in the browser's own window).
 Now many email programs get around the problem by formatting the
incoming lines if tehy're too long, but tehy're avtually not supposed to
do that.

--
 Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq >
Please note that the above is my new preferred address!
 My primary FAQ archive is presently at <ftp://ftp.alt.net/hungarian/>
       * I WILL NEVER, EVER, BUY SPAMVERTISED PRODUCTS! *

In article >, 
says...
>
>Falu v=E9g=E9n kurta kocsma
>Oda rug ki a Szamosra
>megi is l=E1tn=E1 mag=E1t benne=20
>Ha az =E9jj nem k=F6zeledne
Je, es en meg azt hittem hogy ezt a Petofi irta!  Egyebkent, Denes, ha
tudnam kivulrol, nem tudtam volna elolvasni.  Ujra kerem, hogy ne
hasznaljon accentusokat!

Agnes

Zimanyi Magdolna > wrote:

>There was some debate a few days ago about the numerus clausus in the
>U.S. in the thirties. Here is a contribution to this topic.
>
This group just climbed off the back of the jews and climbed
immediately onto the back of the gypsies -- without ever
touching the ground.
Can anyone here walk on his/her own feet?
Dominus

Hi Agnes:

Just to let you know; once again at this end at least, the typing came out
clear.

Also, I do believe that I have confused the issue a tad, when attempting to
thank him for his post.  Instead of simply replying, I sent in a message.
When I discovered it had no reference, meant to type "Denes' post", but I
ended up typing "Denes' poem".  Of course, I did not mean to suggest that
the poem was authored by him.  Nor did I get the impression that he was
taking credit for it; rather, I got the impression that he took it for
granted that we all would recognize at least parts of it.  Forgive my typo
and it's results?

Have you ever though of using Eudora as your Email progam?  It seems to get
around the problems you are faced to deal with on a continuing basis.

Regards,
Aniko
At 10:37 PM 03/04/97 GMT, you wrote:
>In article >, 
>says...
>>
>>Falu v=E9g=E9n kurta kocsma
>>Oda rug ki a Szamosra
>>megi is l=E1tn=E1 mag=E1t benne=20
>>Ha az =E9jj nem k=F6zeledne
>Je, es en meg azt hittem hogy ezt a Petofi irta!  Egyebkent, Denes, ha
>tudnam kivulrol, nem tudtam volna elolvasni.  Ujra kerem, hogy ne
>hasznaljon accentusokat!
>
>Agnes
>
>