(Peter Szaszvari) wrote:

>Who told you that Germans or Russians were not Christians?

Fascists and communists cannot be Chistians by definition.

Ivan

In article >,
    (Gyorgy Kovacs) wrote:
>>
>En meg azt hallottam, hogy:
>"Vetkesek kozt cinkos aki nema."
>GK

Ezt egesz biztosan valahol mashol lehetett hallani. :)


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

In article >,
   Ivan Marinov > wrote:
 (Peter Szaszvari) wrote:
>
>>Who told you that Germans or Russians were not Christians?
>
>Fascists and communists cannot be Chistians by definition.
>
>Ivan

Whos definition? Yours or theirs? 
Who defines you a Christian?
1 You
2 Others
3 The Only Son of The Only God

Your answer here -> [ ]


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

 (Peter Szaszvari) wrote:
>
>In article >,
>    (Laszlo Balogh) wrote:
>>It comes as no surprise to us, Megorov has left the Kalashikov 
>State 
>[...]
>>
>>Dr. Laszlo 
>>
>>
>You seem to be very angry on this idiot that you post the same 
>not to funny post severel times.
>If nobody then I tell you: it is not a good but a bad idea.
>
>
>Szaszvari Peter
>(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)
>
>XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Depends how high you're on the "Z" axis

Dr. Laszlo

In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:

>.edu (Gyorgy Kovacs)wrote:
><Fact
><COUNTRY: Hungarian Republic
><CULTURE: The nation who gave the following people to the World: Bela
><Bartok, Ferenc Liszt, Mihaly Munkacsi, Victor Vasarelli, Zoltan Kodaly,
><George Czukor, etc. etc. etc
>
>What's the matter, too damn lazy to stand up for your own people and pass
>them off as mere "etc. etc. etc."

Why go for the cannon when you can kill a varmint with a slingshot?

>
>You can also include the scientific community; the Nobel Laureates:
>Lenard, Fulop, for his phosphorescence research and his theory of
>photoelectric influence; Barany, Robert, for medicine, equilibrium in the
>inner ear; Zsigmondy, Richard Adolf colloid-chemical research; Szentgyorgi,
>Albert, for biological burn research and vitamin C influence; Hevesy,
>Gyorgy Jozsef, for the use of isotopes in chemical research; Bekesy,
>Gyorgy, for inner ear research; Wigner, Jeno, for nuclear reactions; Gabor,
>Denes, for 3d photography;

I would but the field in qustion was CULTURE, not SCIENCE.

>
>And there is a long list of other influential Hungarians:
>Segner, Janos: physicist
>Vitus, Janos Balsarati: court physician to Pope Paul V
>Kempelen, Farkas Pazmandi: engineer
>Biro, Laszlo Janos: ballpoint pen inventor
>Sziegmeth, Alfred: directed Pioneer research satellites
>Pavlics, Ferenc: designer of the moon buggy
>Domokos, Istvan: designed LEM engine
>Karman, Todor: aerodynamic specialist
>Neumann, Janos: mathematician

See above.

>
><RACE: Human
>Impressive. Who would have thought.
>
Not you, that's for sure. Have you ever heard about human race? :-) My point is
that race as they use it lately should not be important.

><RELIGION: Christian, Jewish , Traces of Moslim and Buddhist, Ateist
><HISTORY: 1100 years with hostile slavic neighbours, and there is still a
><nation to celebrate it.
>
>Typical. Every European nation can claim hostile neighbours.

Yup, but it's their chore to whine about it.

> Hungarians did
>great dirt to their southern neighbour -- not so long ago. The Rom faced
>hostility throughout their history, and face it today, unlike the
>Hungarian people, they faced the holocaust, unlike the Hungarian people,
>they had always been without a country -- and yet, they survive and they
>have contributed to the culture of other European nations. Now that is an
>accomplishment.
>

Yup, and it is their pleasure to brag about it.

><ECONOMY: Ruined by the brute force of the largest slavic country
>
>Whine, whine, whine.
>
You need to polish up on your vocabulary again.

>FUTURE: see economy
>
>More whine, whine, whine.

See above.

>Wally Keeler

GK

ko:nnyu" azt mondani: Felejtsen el...
Ha ne'kem, csak maga kell!
Ko:nnyu" azt mondani: Majd akad ma's...
Jo'l tudom, nincs folytata's

nyugi, nyugi, magyarok....

janos

In article >,
   Ivan Marinov > wrote:
 (Peter Szaszvari) wrote:
>
>>>Good is what is in harmony with God.
>
>>Which one?
>
>There's only one true God.
>
>Ivan
Who or what defines the "truth"?
Is it the same only "true" God or you?

What is harmony? Isn't it harmony that you feel good after making 
something bad?

(Thinking is an option)


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq > wrote:

>Valoszinubb, hogy megosztva hasznaljak oket; erre utalo
>jelkent lasd peldaul a stilusbeli eltereseket - mondjuk 'toth' ingadozasat
>a tort es a tokeletes magyar nyelhasznalat kozott, osszevetve a regi
>szovegmintakkal amikor meg sajat nevuk alatt (illetve Csorna idonkent
>valaki, valoszinu Egyed, altal javitva) irtak a Forumba. 

Erdekes fejtegetesek, Zoli.  De ha mar benne vagy a schwungban,
erdekelne hasonloan melyenszanto analizised a "Karesz" figurarol is,
aki egy eleg semmitmondo domainrol, a c2.org-rol irogatja
szellemessegeit.  De egy "finger" parancs azt is indikalta, hogy
Kareszunk oda csak telnetel, egy well.com, ill. well.sf.ca.us domainrol.
Nem ugy nez ki neked ez is, mintha a ficko erosen fedni szeretne
kiletet?  Csak tudnam miert, amikor olyan szellemes dolgokat irogat.
Ha gyanum igaz, hogy ez a c2.org csak egy "dummy" domain az irok cimenek
elrejtese celjabol, akkor szerintem ez Hollosi egy regebbi ukazaval is
ellentetes, amiben azt irta a HIX tulaj, hogy alnev (mint pl. Guriga)
hasznalata OK ameddig az e-mail cimbol azonosithato az illeto.  
Arra meg mar gondolni sem merek, hogy Kareszunk esetleg a munkaltatoja
szamitogeprendszeret privat levelezesre hasznalna fel!

Pannon J.

In >, MEgorov > wrote:
<Fiction:
<>COUNTRY: Hungary
<>CULTURE: NON EUROPEAN ( MONGOLIC TURKS)
<>RACE:NON EUROPEAN (URAL MONGOLIC)
<>RELIGION: Imposed(CHRISTIAN)
<>HISTORY: Mercenaries( by the will of god or ROME)
<>ECONOMY:Depending on Austria & Germany
<>POLICY: Commanded by Austro -GERMS
<>FUTURE: DEFINITELY UNKNOWN ( BY past and SWW2 REASONS)


..edu (Gyorgy Kovacs)wrote:
<Fact
<COUNTRY: Hungarian Republic
<CULTURE: The nation who gave the following people to the World: Bela
<Bartok, Ferenc Liszt, Mihaly Munkacsi, Victor Vasarelli, Zoltan Kodaly,
<George Czukor, etc. etc. etc

What's the matter, too damn lazy to stand up for your own people and pass
them off as mere "etc. etc. etc."

You can also include the scientific community; the Nobel Laureates:
Lenard, Fulop, for his phosphorescence research and his theory of
photoelectric influence; Barany, Robert, for medicine, equilibrium in the
inner ear; Zsigmondy, Richard Adolf colloid-chemical research; Szentgyorgi,
Albert, for biological burn research and vitamin C influence; Hevesy,
Gyorgy Jozsef, for the use of isotopes in chemical research; Bekesy,
Gyorgy, for inner ear research; Wigner, Jeno, for nuclear reactions; Gabor,
Denes, for 3d photography; 

And there is a long list of other influential Hungarians:
Segner, Janos: physicist
Vitus, Janos Balsarati: court physician to Pope Paul V
Kempelen, Farkas Pazmandi: engineer
Biro, Laszlo Janos: ballpoint pen inventor
Sziegmeth, Alfred: directed Pioneer research satellites
Pavlics, Ferenc: designer of the moon buggy
Domokos, Istvan: designed LEM engine
Karman, Todor: aerodynamic specialist
Neumann, Janos: mathematician

<RACE: Human

Impressive. Who would have thought. 

<RELIGION: Christian, Jewish , Traces of Moslim and Buddhist, Ateist
<HISTORY: 1100 years with hostile slavic neighbours, and there is still a
<nation to celebrate it.

Typical. Every European nation can claim hostile neighbours. Hungarians did
great dirt to their southern neighbour -- not so long ago. The Rom faced 
hostility throughout their history, and face it today, unlike the 
Hungarian people, they faced the holocaust, unlike the Hungarian people, 
they had always been without a country -- and yet, they survive and they 
have contributed to the culture of other European nations. Now that is an 
accomplishment.

<ECONOMY: Ruined by the brute force of the largest slavic country

Whine, whine, whine. 

FUTURE: see economy

More whine, whine, whine.
Soros and Sarlos and associates will take care of it.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Peter Szaszvari > wrote:
>    (Gyorgy Kovacs) wrote:
>>En meg azt hallottam, hogy:
>>"Vetkesek kozt cinkos aki nema."
>>GK
>
>Ezt egesz biztosan valahol mashol lehetett hallani. :)

Gimnaziumban, irodalom oran.
GK

In article >,  ()
wrote:

> George Antony Ph 93818 > wrote:

> >So, the best way for Romanians to create political divisions among Romanian
> >Hungarians is to make them feel perfectly contented as an ethnic
minority ;-).
> 
> Yeap!  Once the external threat is diminished, centrifugal forces
> present in almost all Hungarian communities take over.  Then DB might
> see two parties for every Hungarian sprung up.

That would probably be just as bad as the monolothic situation currently. 
Incoherence and babble is just as disconcerting in its own way as lockstep 
uniformity on ethnic lines is.

DB

-- 
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Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
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On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 02:39:02 GMT,  wrote:

>I have a small request.  I want to compliment a very attractive and nice
>young Hungarian woman (age 26) in her own language. At the least, I would
>want to convey that she is both pretty and appealing as a person.
>
>Can anyone help me?  
>Thanks, John
>
Sure, what would you like to say?
Zsolt

From:  (Tess Tickle)
Subject: Love ya all
Organization: Prodigy Services Company  1-800-PRODIGY

yes I luve ya all,

              Tess
-
    careless in cyberspace ... - - - ...  


--
|Fidonet:  Tess Tickle 1:124/2342.99
|Internet: 
|
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

>On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 02:39:02 GMT,  wrote:
>
>>I have a small request.  I want to compliment a very attractive 
and nice
>>young Hungarian woman (age 26) in her own language. At the 
least, I would
>>want to convey that she is both pretty and appealing as a 
person.
>>
>>Can anyone help me?  
>>Thanks, John

Pay attention with big open eyes when she talks, then kiss her. 
It will do. :)


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

In article >,  (Andras Kornai)
wrote:

> dbrutus writes: 
> > There is a difference when the "elite" is created by ability, and the 
> > "elite" is created by government privilege in a totalitarian regime.

> Elites are not created by government privilege, though individuals often
> become part of the elite by government privilege, just as aristocrats often
> received their nobility by government (royal) privilege. Guess what? They 
> were often very able people. Certainly communism introduced a totalitarian 
> regime in Hungary, but this is obvious only in hindsight. Many people who
> embraced communism early on were genuine idealists who thought they were
> building a better world.

When you take a group of people who were the elite, shoot them, deport them, 
and imprison them while at the same time you take another group of people 
who weren't the elite and give them the former elite's privileges the 
government has created that elite. This was manifestly the case all over 
the communist world. Given the nature of communism, government privilege 
was the only kind of privilege that remained because all actions were to 
become politicized and socialized. As time went on there what was left 
private shrank to insignificance, to the point where if you were left in 
the private sector, that too was a government privilege.

> > So if a child was the son of the politically disfavored, the son of an 
> > anti-communist, his scoring on the math or physics national competition    
> > was unaffected? 

> Of course. Scoring was anonymous. 

If you look at the headers on this series of posts they are both in
soc.culture.magyar and soc.culture.romanian. I've been trying to make things 
relevant to both groups, I hope you do the same. In the Romanian context 
scoring was "anonymous" but the politically disadvantaged somehow failed 
in far greater proportions then their advantaged classmates. As one of the 
winners of the system you have a certain perspective. Whether in Hungary 
they did things more honestly than in Romania I can't speak to but I would 
suggest that it is far more psychologically comfortable for you to think that 
you have had no privilege and you got where you were on pure merit. This 
isn't proof of guilt, merely a suggestion that you be very careful in your 
examination and judgment of the system that produced you.

DB

-- 
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Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

In article >,  (Andras Kornai)
wrote:

> dbrutus writes: 
> > As for the children of "workers", how was this F given except on the basis
> > of political service to the regime? 

> Anybody whose parents were blue-collar (including agrarian) workers got the 
> F. Often, factory foremen and others no longer doing physical work would 
> also get the F classification (by the same fiction whereby Ja1nos Ka1da1r 
> was always listed on the election posters as "munka1s"), so you can say 
> that the system, like everything else under "socialism" was abused. But 
> abuse was secondary to actual use, and the actual use was to serve as a 
> conduit of affirmative action.  

I can only relate my family's experience. My grandfather had been a coal 
miner in the US for a period. He was so good at it that he could afford to 
come back to Romania and buy a farm. The farm was just large enough so that 
he was labelled an exploiter of the people and the lives of his five children 
were damaged for as long as they remained in Romania. This does not mean that 
later on things didn't get better, but they never were viewed by the regime 
as "uncontaminated" by bourgoise values. The son of an exploiter label 
followed them. 

You say that the abuse of the system was secondary. I say that the purpose 
of the entire system *was abuse*. 

I do wonder though. You say that you were unconnected from decisions, you 
had no access to power. How would you even know when a person was slighted, 
placed second instead of first, or moved just a bit back in the job queue 
because of their or their parent's background? You can't have things both 
ways. You can't be out of the circle of power and knowlegeable about what 
happened there.

> > Western scholarships are based on academic merit and sometimes athleticism,
> > hardly the same thing as daddy being the best block snitch in Budapest, or
> > for that matter Bucharest. 

> I'm glad you think so. If you need it, I can fax you my old scholarship 
> letters from Stanford, MIT, and elsewhere.

My my. You labelled your political affiliations on your scholarship 
applications? Your political services were a factor in determining if you 
got a scholarship at MIT? Oh come off it. I'll grant you that social service 
can be a factor in some scholarships but almost never political service. 
It's one of the things that I've been told over and over that should never 
get into the educational or job application process. It's too risky because 
you have almost as good a chance of it hurting you as helping you. 

DB

-- 
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Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

In article >,  (Andras Kornai)
wrote:

> dbrutus writes: 
> > Would you buy products produced by slave labor? Would you patronize a
> > restaurant if you knew the waitresses were beaten and paid poorly? What kin
d
> > of moral system permitted you to take your privileges when you knew what
> > produced them was wrong, wrong, wrong. 

> My privileges were not produced by communism in any significant way just as
> the bread I ate and the water (even Coca Cola!) I drank was not produced by 
> communism in any significant way. The bread was produced by underpaid 
> workers in a bakery, the water by underpaid municipal employes, and the 
> Coca Cola by underpaid workers in a bottling plant. Should I have refused 
> to eat and drink just because life was pervaded by a system that was 
> wrong, wrong, wrong? 

In other words, you would use products created by slave labor, you would 
patronize a restaurant if you knew the waitresses were beaten and paid 
poorly. You would make no moral judgements about communism that would 
obligate you to make sacrifices either then or now in your lifestyle. 

> > This is why the utter lack of contrition for your privilege is so
> > bothersome.  *You say you know* it was an illegitimate system yet you still
> > accepted your bit of advantages. 

> For the simple reason that they didn't come from the system.

You've got a lot of moral denial going on in your head. 

DB

-- 
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These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

In article >, 
(CRISTIAN CHELARIU) wrote:

> T.M.Lutas ) wrote:
> : > it's just that the ones that give a damn have spent
> : > their last 50 years talking about it. it's kinda tiresome,
> : So nobody under lets say 30 really gives a damn do they? I'm sorry but 
> : at 27 I give a damn and I doubt that I'm the only one on the planet. 
> : Come off it. The idea that only old fogeys care about communism, history, 
> : or justice is more than a bit patronizing, it's downright insulting. 
> 
> I think he meant romanians as a nation and not as individuals, a
> collective conscience and not an individual one.
> Regards, 

What is this entire thread about if not a struggle for the collective 
conscience of our people?

If it was addressed as a collective, I still think that it's insulting. 
I think that people do not have a sense that they can contribute and 
actually change anything. This is actually an electoral strategy of the 
neo-communists in Romania and has been for their entire tenure. His 
statement just feeds into that whole psychology of defeatism, discouragement, 
and isolation that they've been doing to de-energize the anticommunist base.

DB

-- 
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These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

Szeretnem megtudni a rablo ulti szabalyait, kulonosen
a kulonbozo szamolasi fajtak erdekelnek.

Ha valaki tud segiteni, az alabbi e-mail cimre kernem a valaszt.

Elore is koszonom
                      Zsolt

> -------------------------------------------------------------------
Please use the following e-mail address in your reply:  
       
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

Peter Szaszvari ) wrote:
: In article >,
:     (Ludo Segers) wrote:
: >In article >, "Crispín 
: Escalante G."
: > wrote:
: >
: >> Please E-mail me translation 3 words
: >> Thank you
: >
: >In Dutch: Ik zie je graag 
Translation for 'Ik zie je graag' is 'I like to see you.'

: >or : Ik hou van je
This is the correct translation for I love you..

: CAN YOU IDIOTS SPELL: "E-MAIL" (and not post)?


: Szaszvari Peter
: (http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

The Dutchie
(*) Edwin Lubbes

From:  (T.M.Lutas)
Subject: Re: Romanian fonts for MAC
Organization: DB Information Services

In article >,  (DStinea) wrote:

> I have received the Romanian fonts for MAC from some kind person via
> e-mail and I need help using/installing it. Any experts out there? E-mail
> to 
> Multumesc frumos.

Just drop them into your (closed) system folder and reboot. They will be 
installed automatically into your font folder inside your system folder 
unless you are using a very, very old version of the Mac SW.

DB

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--
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|
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From:  (T.M.Lutas)
Subject: Re: Just how bad was communism morally?  ... Bad enough to kill
30million of its own ...
Organization: DB Information Services

In article >,  wrote:

> T.M.Lutas wrote:
> 
> > I think that you are being incredibly conservative with the figure of 30
> > million. However, this begs the question of what is the proper, moral, and
> > just response to such facts? What are we to do with those who, knowing, or
> > even participating in the slaughter, ask today for not forgiveness but
> > amnesia and a total lack of consequences?

> What would you suggest?

I already just gave a longish response on the main thread to this question. 

I don't have fixed views as to what this moral response has to be but the 
lack of major political figures in the Romanian government in this discussion 
is troubling and until those people are replaced by ones that will be willing 
to help forge a national consensus on the issue, there is a great deal of 
political work to be done. 

DB

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From:  ()
Subject: Re: Just how bad was communism morally?
Organization: Northwest Nexus, Inc. - Professional Internet Services

In article >, td  > wrote:
>
>really, i don't think you can get more controversial
>than with "Just how bad was communism morally?"
>
>it's just that the ones that give a damn have spent
>their last 50 years talking about it. it's kinda tiresome,
>isn't it ?

Talking about it secretly among confidential friends and family members
is not the same as talking about it publically, without fear of arrest.

Joe
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From:  ()
Subject: Re: WHAT IS THE POETIC NAME OF ROMANIA ?
Organization: Northwest Nexus, Inc. - Professional Internet Services

In article >, J-Marc  > wrote:
>
>What is the poetic name of Romania ?

Romania poetica.

Panonescu
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From:  (CRISTIAN CHELARIU)
Subject: Re: Congresul Mondial al "Martorilor lui Iehova" in Bucuresti
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha (Faculty/Staff CWIS)

 wrote:
: Conform stirii preluate din ZIUA, 25 iunie 1996, Congresul Mondial al
: "Martorilor lui Iehova" se va desfasura la Bucuresti. Pentru cazarea
: celor peste 25.000 de oaspeti, studentii cazati in caminele
: studentesti, vor trebui sa-si elibereze locuintele. 
Pai ce nu face guvernul nostru cind e vorba de aratat lumii ce intelegator
si tolerant este el? Mai ales ca in trecere mai da si un ghiont
studentimii care si-asa nu il iubeste. Da' oare popa Tatu nu face vreo
interpelare in Parlament in numele dreptei credinte?

: numai in perioada bolsevista a Romaniei sau mai intimplat.
Bolsevista sau bolsevica? Se scrie "s-au mai intimplat".  

 In ultimul timp, in Bucuresti si-au facut aparitia o
: puzderie de secte penticostale, pocaite, loge masonice obediente de
: Marele Orient din Franta si Marele Orient din Italia, cluburi
: Scientology, secta japoneza MUM, si mai multe ateliere de yoga si
: tantra. In tara lui Bula totul e posibil!
Aici chiar ca ai dreptate sa te indignezi, Conashule Gabitza. Pai ce ne
trebuie noua toate prostiile astea cu yoga si cu altele, sa strice mintile
tineretului nostru...Unitate de monolit/ In jurul patriarhului nostru
iubit. 

Un constant cititor al pertinentelor dumneavoastra analize
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In article >,  (Andras Kornai)
wrote:

> dbrutus writes: 

> > He was permitted to publish articles in western journals 
> > under his name? Well, well, hungarian communism was indeed very different 
> > than the Romanian variety where this was concerned if this is true.

> Indeed it was. Hungary was called "the most merry barrack in the whole lager"
> with good reason.

Even "the most merry barrack" operated on the same moral principles, I hope 
you would agree, and these principles were and are the most repugnant of 
the 20th century. Are you trying to make a moral distinction between evil 
with a smiling face and stark, frowning evil? Heck, even Hitler and Stalin 
kissed babies as well as killing them. Is there some moral calculus in your 
head that x kissed babies makes up for one killed one? 

DB

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In article >,  (Andras Kornai)
wrote:

> dbrutus writes: 
> > The comparison isn't the studious v. the lazy but the studious priviliged 
> > v. the studious disadvantaged and the lazy privileged v. the lazy 
> > disadvantaged. 

> What is your point? The studious/lazy privileged always did better than 
> the equally studious/lazy unprivileged, that is what privilege means.  

In a moral system the basis for privilege is not a government ministry. 
When you are out of the elite in the US you can rise to it without politics. 
In Romania, Hungary, or anywhere else in the communist world, political 
connections were a necessity. If you didn't have them you were not protected 
from the stark, hurtful realities of socialism.

> > There were and are elite schools in the West but getting into the elite in 
> > the west was a combination of ability in the student and economic 
> > contribution to society (money). While in the communist era it was a 
> > combination of ability and political contribution to the rotten communist 
> > system. 

> This presumes that the only way to become a member of the elite was political
> contribution. This is manifestly untrue in the case of Hungary, particularly 
> in the case of the intelligentsia. Even during the harshest years of 
> Hungarian communism people like Zolta1n Koda1ly or Gyula Illye1s were 
> members of the elite. They didn't actively fight communism, in fact both 
> had leftist sympathies, but they by no means made a "political contribution 
> to the rotten communist system". 

When Walter Duranty toured the USSR during the height of the Ukrainian famine 
and stated that he did not see any hunger, that reports of starvation were 
fabrications, he made a manifest political contribution to the USSR and he 
should be forever condemned for that disgusting bit of lying. When "Zolta1n 
Koda1ly" and "Gyula Illye1s" (you're using non-standard encoding here, it 
looks a bit gibberishy on my screen so I just cut and pasted the names) 
participated in the elite, they too made a political contribution. They, by 
their presence and non-opposition, helped to legitimize the regime. I happen 
to by Byzantine Catholic. When my bishops spent long years in prison and 
many (most!) of them died as a consequence, that was a true and morally valid 
response to the communist challenge. Those that did not die still refused to 
compromise with the communists. 

What did they have to do to avoid decades of pressure and misery? Sign one 
piece of paper stating that they would move to the Orthodox church, a church 
that is virtually identical in faith and practices. If they did that, all 
that they would have to do beyond that one signature is to accept privilege. 
The few priests who did cross over were showered with favor, becoming high 
Orthodox church officials, being promoted above their Orthodox colleagues 
with blinding speed. 

The bishops stood firm and because of their sacrifice Romania has at least 
one historic church which stood firm against tyranny and has been consistent 
in its dealings for hundreds of years. This is a moral treasure that will 
do good for literally millions of Romanians even generations from now because 
they will have an example of what moral men can do. 

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

In article >,  (Andras Kornai)
wrote:

> dbrutus writes: 
> > No patently about it, neither is it unrealistic. It is true that privilege 
> > existed before, during, and after the communists. But this ignores the 
> > entire moral promise of communism that it would end such privilege. 

> It was one of the many promises they did not keep. 

And the moral consequences of these broken promises should be??? Your answer 
seems to be "nothing". Are broken promises to be forgotten so easily? Is 
decades of societal decay and human misery to be waved off and ignored as 
irrelevant to the moral field?

> > It also ignores the moral implications of the politicization of such
> > privilege. 

> Privilege always was highly politicized, even when the caesar granted it.

You are at Rice University in the US (for those who don't know how to read 
an e-mail address). The US is probably the country with the most 
depoliticized privilege system in the world. This depoliticization of 
privilege was one of the reasons that there was a revolutionary war of 
independence. The reasons for this war were moral ones and privilege being 
separate from politics (to the extent that people still follow the founders 
vision) is one of the reasons that the US is such a great and moral country 
vis a vis others. You partake of the benefits of this depoliticization yet 
you try to ignore the flip side of the coin, that the policization of 
privilege is immoral.

> > If you take power on the promises of a better moral system and all
> > you do is increase the corruption of the system while making everybody
> > materially worse off, don't you think that there is a moral debt that all
> > those that benefitted from the system need to pay. It need not be jail time
,
> > nor even a legislatively mandated punishment. 

> Who is "you"? I didn't take power on the promises of a better moral system no
r
> did my parents, for the simple reason that neither I nor they ever occupied
> positions of power (and neither did my grandparents, great-grandparents etc.
> in case you are wondering). The highest political position my father ever 
> had was to be economic advisor to the short-lived Imre Nagy government, and 
> the highest I ever had was senior researcher (tudoma1nyos fo3munkata1rs) 
> at the Hungarian Academy of Sciences. 

And that lets you off the moral hook in your eyes, how sad. 

> As for the system, a lot of people benefited, otherwise they wouldn't have
> voted Horn & Co back in power. Since I did not benefit from any political 
> activity, I have no moral debt to pay, and neither do my parents.    

You don't have to be a camp guard at Auschwitz to be complicit in the 
Holocaust. You don't have to sign deportation orders to be complicit in the 
Gulag. I believe that there is a book out now with the title "Hitler's 
Willing Executioners" that makes a case for the general guilt of the German 
people and examining what made all the little cogs in the Nazi death machine 
what they were. 

I hope one day that there will be a similar book examining all the little 
cogs in the Communist death machine. You may be a littler cog than many 
in the repressive Hungarian communist machine. Not recognizing that you 
were part of it even if only passively makes you an even littler man.

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

In article >,  (Andras Kornai)
wrote:

> dbrutus writes: 
> > Take a look at your own assumptions, can you really live with yourself
> > knowing that others were destroyed or severly damaged and as a consequence
> > you prospered? 

> This is nonsense. Many were destroyed or severly damaged, but I did not 
> prosper as a consequence, and neither did my parents.

Mr. XYZ would have been in that senior research position instead of you but 
he got shot, or was forced to run in '56. Did you prosper at his expense? 
You bet your life! Just because you don't personally know the name of the 
person you dislocated doesn't mean that you didn't take advantage of a 
morally evil situation for your own benefit. Please remember that I'm not 
advocating a Jacobin solution where we hunt down all those morally complicit 
in the crimes of Communism. What I am arguing for is an awakening of all of 
us that escaping a prison sentance is not good enough to be judged moral. 
Even if you didn't do anything yourself, you still have an obligation to 
donate your money and/or your time to help out those who were damaged and to 
help create a better moral foundation for the next generation.

Just a simple question, would you have bought a lampshade made from the 
skin of a concentration camp victim? You wouldn't have done anything to 
end that poor unfortunate's life, in fact it would be too late to do anything 
for him now wouldn't it? But still, would you buy it (even second hand)? 
I'm told Auschwitz made the most 'excellent' lampshades...

> > Do you really think that not even admitting your complicity and
> > making no effort to heal the damage is morally acceptable? 

> I admit my passive complicity: active opponents of the system were few and
> far between. Most of them went on to form SZDSZ, what Tibor O1dor called 
> the most hated party. I was not one of them when opposition was risky, and 
> neither was 99.99% of Hungarian society. I'm not a member of SZDSZ (or any
> other party) now, but I freely admit I'm sympathetic to most of their ideas.

I believe that passive complicity, which I'm willing to accept is what you 
are guilty of, is a moral wrong. Morality is not a field for the passive. 
The moral wrong of passivity in the face of evil is something that you need 
to work at to atone for, just as all of us who have been passive at one 
point or another need to do the same (heck, I'm not as active as I could be 
either, I just want to do better is all).

If you are a christian you may wish to reflect on Jesus' sentiments for 
those who did not clothe the naked, feed the hungry, *visit those in prison*, 
and undertake other charitable acts. In his eyes, if you did not do it for 
the least of us you did not do it for him.

> > > It is for this simple reason that these people do not, contrary to what 
> > > Joe says, try to hide their origins. 

> > They do not try to hide their origins because their origins are in their 
> > own eyes and the eyes of their peers, respectable and morally permissible. 
> > This is what is incomplete in the revolutions of the late 80's against 
> > communism. The moral base is still intact to put another crop of dictators 
> > up on top of it. You sir, are a symptom of a very insidious disease that 
> > will destroy us all if we do not take care. 

> Tell me more. Explain your methods of "taking care". 

First of all, be ashamed at what happened and recognize that you did play 
a small part in the whole sorry spectacle. Then commit yourself as the 
jews did after WWII to the philosophy of "never again". Then think about 
how you personally could contribute to such an effort and do what you can.

> > Why do I call it a disease? Because the next pied piper that advocates 
> > an immoral system like communism (but probably not communism) is going 
> > to find a fertile territory filled with little opportunists like you 

> Unlike you, who were no doubt a hero of anti-communist resistance. 

Born in 1968 (December), I was celebrating my 21st birthday when the 
revolution started in Timisoara (one of my best ever birthday presents BTW).
I don't know about Hungary, but in Romania politicians aren't treated 
seriously until they are about 40. I've done what small measure of good 
that my age and distance permit me. That doesn't make me a hero and it 
certainly doesn't make me perfect. It makes me someone who *tries*. All of 
E. Europe could use more people who try to do good instead of playing Pilate.

I currently run a website using my own money called the Romanian political 
pages, I will probably end up contributing my time to the anti-communist 
National Peasant Party - christian democrat (PNT-cd) website. I will be 
helping to publicize the rules so that those who are outside Romania will 
know how to vote if they retain that right. Is it all I can do? Probably 
not, there's always another project, but it's enough for me and I feel that 
what I've done has had something of a small impact.

> > who see no problem in getting illegitimate privilege in exchange for their 
> > political support. Hitler never could have risen to power without the 
> > moral hollowing out that occured under Weimar. Now Romania, Hungary, and 
> > most of the east is filled with moral slugs like you who are Weimarized 
> > and ready to follow the next charismatic madman.

> What illegitamete privilege, what political support? The only semi-charismati
c
> madman I see is Istva1n Csurka, and I'm not ready to follow him. 

Heck, you're in the US and he AFAIK isn't in power. The question is if 
you were given the choice to resist or not, would you? When you talk to 
people in your own community do you encourage or belittle people who would 
be willing to fight the good fight. You aren't on the battlefield of E. 
Europe and neither am I but we both have a choice to cheer or jeer those 
who would fight for liberty and justice. Moral slugdom is not a terminal 
nor even necessarily a permanent condition. 

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

In article >,  ()
wrote:

> T.M.Lutas > wrote:

> >No actually we don't know that Wally Keeler is not Romanian unless some 
> >other 'reputable' SCR people actually went and verified this. The 
> 
> Oh come now!  
> You've just told me you were with the National Peasant Party, so why
> pretend now to be member of the Know-Nothing Party!  I think there are
> some things even on Internet that we can safely eliminate, and that's
> Wally being a Romanian.

Actually I was having both a bit of tongue in cheek fun while making a 
serious point. Not everything is as it seems and it is a wise Usenetter 
who doesn't hide the headers and when they read a bit of weirdness check 
for forgery esp. if it seems inconsistent with past positions.

No, I don't seriously think that "Oali Chilar" is a Romanian. But if I 
were challenged to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, I couldn't do it 
without a great deal more work than you would think. *That* is something 
that we should be aware of.

> >Given a person and a desire to persecute, I would suspect that you could 
> >get that person fired just as easily off the internet as on. I'd have to 
> >hear the case but if it was a government worker fired for private speech 
> >using his own resources on his own time, he's got a hell of a lawsuit there.
> 
> The problem is that he fired off many of his posts from his .gov account
> and that's what was used against him.  Even though according to him,
> virtually all his coworkers do it.  So he was singled out for the
> content of his posts.

Well, the archives would still seem to provide him an opportunity for suit. 
However, all that a successful suit would do would lead to a lot more 
firings. A .gov or a .mil site has content restrictions placed on it in 
the US and in most other countries that use those domains. You can get 
fired for it if you are caught and this is something that most people who 
have been on the net know very well. Avoid controversy from those sites 
IMHO.

> >I've been threatened with lawsuit by leftists before. It never stopped me, 
> >it never will. Besides, I'm too poor to sue.

> They don't need to sue you if they can threaten your livelyhood.

This is an occupational hazard whatever your politics. Though again, 
turnabout *is* fair play isn't it ;-)

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

This may be a stupid question, but I was wondering what the jobs
prospects were like in Hungary for someone from Canada, who at this
point only understands the basics of the language.  I have a B.A. and
my computers skills are quite good.  I've become very interested in
the country and and language and thought it would be interesting to live
and work there.  I also understand that Hungary has shown more growth 
than all the other former Eastern block countries.

	Any help regarding someone moving to, and working in Hungary
would be greatly appreciated.  At this point it would help me if you
responded in English (even though I am working on the language).

	Thank you in advance.

	Darrell

In article >, George Lazar  > wrote:
>Lately virtually all FORUM postings deal with "Jews". In fact, using Deja News
 I run a 
>search on the word "zsido" and discovered that no FORUM issue has ever been po
sted 
>without at least one reference to "Jews". - zsido 

Have you also checked what prompted or started these references? Was it
some news item perhaps, or some Jewish participant? 
For instance, somebody might scan later the s.c.m. archives and come to
the same conclusion about it as you about the FORUM, because among
others, his/her scanning found your reference to "Jews" in it.

>Well, I understand that FORUM is the channel of right-wing Hungarian ideas.

It's an unmoderated list and your complaint here about "there" is
not much more than sour grapes.

> I also find 
>entertaining how far some of the regular contributors have drifted from the Hu
ngarian 
>mainstream...

As if you knew what the Hungarian mainstream is ...

Joe