In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

> Peter Paul and Mary's "Blowing in the Wind" (I think
>that's what the song is called) spoke to me on a more personal note.  The
>song told me that whatever I wanted was not written in a book or spoken
by a
>leader but blowing in the wind.  I took the cue and never looked back.
>
>
Who actually wrote this song -- Woody Guthrie, Bob Dylan or someone else
(Raffi)? You woulda liked Woody, Joe. He wrote the following slogan on his
guitar back, I think, in the 30s: "This machine kills Fascists." When we
hit a slow period, I want to start a thread about the impact American
music -- rock, jazz, country and western, folk, et. al. -- had on
Hungarians following World War II. I'm looking for a definitive answer to
a cultural typology into which all cultures advanced beyond the Stone Age
fall -- Beatles or Stones? In Hungary's case, I'm betting Stones, but I'm
willing to keep an open mind.
Sam Stowe

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Stowewrite wrote:
>
> I've always heard that one way to get some insight into another culture is
> to examine what people in that culture find funny. So how about posting
> some Hungarian jokes on here, gang? Only do it in English, if you don't
> mind. And you might want to accompany your humorous posting with some
> thoughts of your own about the differences between what Hungarians find
> funny and what Americans, Canadians, Brits, etc. find funny.
> Sam Stowe

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A woman I know is a writer and editor in NYC. She is planning on returning to
academia in the fall and would love to work in Eastern Europe for the summer.
 Do you know of any positions she might find?  Isn't there a strong need for
English teahcers in the area?

Thanks for any help!

First, the economic matters.
> Felado :  [United States]
> As for the Philips purchase, only time will tell.  Let's hope they didn't
> just buy the competition in order to eliminate it.
Ferenc, where do you stand on the matter of Tungsram? Clearly, GE bought it
to eliminate the competition, and they did. Yet they ended up investing
large amounts of money, and turned Tungsram into one of their best plants.
Hungary now has a highly competitive plant in place of one slowly dying, a
plant that provides jobs (for fewer people, to be sure, but it's better to
have some jobs than none), hard currency earnings, a local tax base etc.
Take Ikarus, another crown jewel of pre-89 Hungarian industry, it is still
slowly dying (actually, its dying at an accelerating rate). What would you
rather have, a globally competitive bus company investing in it or not? If
Philips says they will turn Euroton into one of their three main European
production sites, what's so terrible about that?

> Felado :  [Canada]
> >> Are there any Hungarian multinationals?
> >Yes there are, though they are small.
> Can you elaborate?
Sure. Several Hungarian-owned companies have operations abroad. The recent
French disk-drive deal (discussed in HVG a couple of weeks ago) received
publicity because the guy in charge was a thief, but the fact that there is
Hungarian capital in some foreign venture is perfectly normal. A few years
ago SZKI (a major software house in Hungary) had a spinoff here in Sunnyvale
(I understand they didn't do too well but you should take this with a
grain of salt as I worked for a direct competitor at the time). Anyway, the
sums involved in these undertakings are by US standards trivial (say between
$1m and $20m) but again it's better to have some than none.

Now for the Quebec matter. I think that until the early seventies Quebec was
something of a beacon of hope for all places mired in ethnic conflict: see,
two cultures can coexist (I understand Montreal was a vibrant, wonderful
city), people don't have to kill each other, all conflicts can be handled in a
civilized, democratic manner, etc. etc. People in Hungary thinking about
Transylvania certainly thought that if only a Quebec-type system was put in
place there all would be well. But this (for the outsiders, rather attractive)
state of affairs didn't survive the nationalists' gaining the upper hand,
which resulted in all sorts of reverse discrimination. Now the integrity of
Canada is in very real danger (I happened to be in Canada at the time of the
last referendum and it was very clear that nationalists lost only by a
whisker). One can see why any Romanian or Slovak would be very reluctant to
grant Quebec-style autonomy to their Hungarian minority: the dynamics of the
situation seems to be give 'em a finger and they take the whole arm. So the
French nationalists did a lot worse than just driving the Anglos away. They
also managed to murder the best hopes of other minorities elsewhere.

Andy Kozma writes:
> I would rather see a united Canada where life is still good,where peole
> still like each other,and not looking for divisions.I am not hoping to
> change your mind,but somehow I hope this situation will be solved for the
> better for all of us,and won't create another Ireland or Yugoslavia.
and I fully agree. I would also much rather see that, and I actually don't
think that blood would be shed even if Quebec and the rest of Canada parted
ways. There would be no ethnic cleansing (I hope) but there would be misery.
There already is, with such massive numbers relocating over the past twenty
years.

Joe Szalai writes (to E1va Balogh, but let me get a word in edgewise):
> On the other hand, you write about your support for minority groups, as long
> as they are not Quebecois.
This has nothing to do with minority status. The policies in question are
repugnant, whether they are practiced by a self-defined minority (I think
the Francophones are actually a majority at this point) or by a majority.

Andra1s Kornai

Friends,

       It has been quite common to call the older part of towns as
    "O"s-X" or "O'-X" in Hungary.  Most of those places,  however,
    have incorporated the old sections.
       There is also a place named E'rsekcsana'd not far from Baja
    and it could have been called Csana'd at one time.
                                                         Amos

Joe Szalai:

>On the other hand, you write about your support for minority groups, as long
>as they are not Quebecois.

        You, as a Canadian, should know better. The French-Canadians are not
a minority in Quebec. In this case, therefore, it is the majority which
tramples on the rights of the minority. See, for example, store names,
signs, or the provincial government's decision about who will go to what
kind of school. A child whose parentage is French must go to French school;
immigrants' children must go to French school. Only those children whose
parents are English can send their children to English school. So,
basically, your rights as an individual are trampled on. They have taken
away your right to free choice.

>Well, I see the European
>Union as a move towards a monoculture.  Your non-support of the Quebecois,
>at least on the surface because of some of their language laws, seems to be
>supportive of an anglophone monoculture in North America.  And your economic
>views clearly support a capitalist monoculture.

        That horrible monoculture, whether you like it or not, is coming. I
can see it myself just, let's, between 1965 and 1995. The opposite of your
"cursed" monoculture over the centuries produced terrible bloodshed as
nations, acting as individuals, jumped at each other's throat at
certainintervals. The opposite of your monoculture is often nothing else but
hatred of the "other." In this case, the French Canadians' hatred of
English-speaking Canadians whom they depict as their oppressors.

>As for me sympathizing with nationalism you've got it all wrong.  I don't.
>I only support a peoples right to self determination.

        Well, I am afraid, this doesn't sound genuine to me. Because that's
exactly what you are supporting--nationalism. Aggressive French-Canadian
nationalism--this is not some kind of protection of the innocent, oppressed
minority. Just the opposite.

        Eva Balogh

>>Does anyone know of any good Hungarian WWW sites?
>
>Try http://www.hungary.com, it contains many of them and links to most other
>ones.
>
>Gabor D. Farkas
>
        That reminds me: there is an interesting sight for chess buffs.
Judit Polgar, the new grand champion, is playing currently with a computer
and the games can be followed and analyzed by the "spectators." The sight
is: http://www.digital.hu/

        Eva Balogh

Please inform me if there is an Email address for KOSSUTH LAJOS
TUDOMANYEGYETEM, NEPRAJZI TANSZEK.

I would like to get in contact with anyone who can help me obtain the
following --

ETHNOGRAPHICA ET FOLKLORISTICA CARPATHICA 1992, 7-8:2

MUVELTSEG ES HAGYOMANY 1992, 25/6

Reply to -- 

Mark Doering

>Felado :  [Canada]
>Temakor: Re: Hungarian humor ( 26 sor )
>Idopont: Mon Apr  8 16:54:09 EDT 1996 HUNGARY #633
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>Dear Martha:
>>"Humorban nem ismerek tre'fa't."  Frigyes Karinthy - Hungary's greatest
>>humorist.
>>(Will someone please try to translate this to English????)
>
>Frigyes's sense of humour comes out incredibly in these few words;  tough to
>translate!!!  "nem ismerek" can be used to relay several different meanings.
>(not-known to me, unknown to me,  unrecognizeable to me, unfamiliar to me,
>could even portray unacceptable to me and pushing it a bit, alien to me).
>Tre'fa, likewise, can be interpreted as joke, jest, fun.  Using the wrong
>word to portray either of above, could potentially throw the entire intent
>of the statement way off track.
>
>The statement when translated literally:  "In humour (take your pick of "nem
>ismerek" ditto of a/the joke/fun/jest".
>
>My best *guess* in English would be  "In humour, fun is unfamiliar to me" or
>"Fun is unfamiliar to me in humour".

<snip>

>Best regards,
>Aniko.
>
>

Aniko',

Not quite. The idiom "Nem ismerek trefat" means "I take [it] very seriously".
This quote is a sterling example of the wit of Karinthy, the greatest
Hungarian
humorist of all time.  It means, in essence: "For me, humor is serious
business".
Just the kind of tongue-in-cheek remark so characteristic of him.

Ferenc

>
>Aniko',
>
>Not quite. The idiom "Nem ismerek trefat" means "I take [it] very seriously".
>This quote is a sterling example of the wit of Karinthy, the greatest
>Hungarian
>humorist of all time.  It means, in essence: "For me, humor is serious
>business".
>Just the kind of tongue-in-cheek remark so characteristic of him.
>
>Ferenc
Hi Ferenc:

Thank you ever so much for taking the time and effort to explain this.  I
always welcome the opportunity to better my understanding of Hungarian.  As
you can see, I have room for improvement!

Thanks again,
Aniko.

Martin Wagner wrote:
>
> Does anyone know the words to any traditional Hungarian Children's Songs,
> for example 'Hinta-Palinta'?
>
> Many thanks.
Yes we're know all My wife get 100 book's from Hungary
I can send what ever you need !

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>I'm not crazy about nation-states either.  If I woke up tomorrow and they
>were all gone, that would be great.  I'd be happy and John Lennon would
be
>happy.

No, you'd be happy and John Lennon would still be dead. Yoko might be cool
with it, though.
Sam Stowe

In article >, "Joseph U. & Sharon W. Hill"
<"http://candles"@community.net> writes:

>--------------10A0657171FE
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>Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
>Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="VICCEK.DOC"
>
>0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOwADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAA>AAAABAAAADwAAAAAA
>AAAAEAAAEgAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAABAAAAD/

<snip>I dunno. I just don't get this college humor. Besides, I think your
set-up for the punch line is a little too long.
Sam Stowe

In the early 80's I heard this double-entendre in Hungary.

'Meghalt a Brezhnev de nem re'gen'.

'Brezhnev died, but not long ago'.

In this case, re'gan (long ago) sounds like Reagan.  The other meaning is
that 'Brezhnev died, but not Reagan'.

Joe Szalai

I am writing a book on multilevel marketing. I would be glad if
you send me experiences (good or bad experiences) releted to
multilevel marketing. If you can send any material related to mlm
I would be very greatful to you.
For all CIS members who will help me to collect experiences I
will send a copy of my book free.
I am also looking for Sunrider distributors to exchange ideas and
experiences. (Sunrider is a mlm company selling high quality
herbal foods based on 5000 years Chinese recipies).
Dr. Jozsef Telkes
carreer-consultant
P.S.: Please share this info, if you can! Thank you.

--
Dr. Jozsef Telkes
Hungarian Franchise Institute
"The School of Success"

 (George Szaszvari) wrote:
>In article >, Aniko Dunford
> says:
>
>Welcome Aniko,
Well, thank you George!  How very sweet of you!

I actually just found this on the net.  For some reason I never did
receive it on my Email.

<cut my stuff>

>That time frame alone?
Yes George, for the third time.

<cut>

>I'm glad it's all clear now. Hey, now it's all over, why not lighten
>up and give us all a few Hungarian jokes?
As much as I would love to; I'm afraid Hungarian Jokes are not my forte.
I love hearing them, but cannot remember them for long.  Some time ago, a
friend sent me a book of hungarian jokes.  I'll try and dig it out; surely
there might be some great ones in it to share.

 Did you like my one about
>the chess playing canine? It's Hungarian, you know :-)
Whoops... that was a joke?  I really thought that you were telling us
how wonderfully well you taught your dog to play chess.... (Just
kidding!)  Yeah; I liked it, it was cute.

Joe Szalai
>thinks that Hungarians are somewhat humourless. I beg to differ.
It does appear that you are not alone in that.  Myself included!  I
absolutely love the humour in Hungary and the people's sense of humour
also.

>I've heard some terrific Hungarian jokes...different generations seem
>to have their own tastes in humour, I think, but perhaps it's true that
>Hungarian humour is better known in literature (something recent I read
>called *Under a Frog's Arse* was a big success in Britain a couple of
>years back, can't recall the author offhand.)
Sam released the name of the author.  I am on the hunt for it.  Can't wait
to read it.  Also, I'd love to get my hands on some of Karinthy's issues.
Judging by his four incredible words floating around the net the last few
days, I'd love to see more.

I can never seem to
>remember jokes (even if I remember the laughter of the occasion)....
>Aaah, just recalled a funny thing that happened to a friend of mine in
>Moscow (USSR days.) As a Briton playing at a Soviet chess tournament he
>was assigned a personal *interpreter*. At day's end he wandered into his
>hotel (glad to be rid of his *shadow*) and bade the *interpreter* good
>night. The Russian surprisingly replied in best colloquial English: *See
>you later alligator*, to which the Brit (with cheeky one-upmanship) retorted
>*In a while crocodile!*, thinking that finished the night off very nicely,
>only to hear the completely unexpected answer, *See you soon baboon!*. The
>Brit had no answer to that and completely defeated was left to go to bed.
>Not really so much of a joke, but more just humorous irony. Anyway, it
>really cracked me up at the time (related to me in Szombathely by Dan
>King, ironically enough...)
Thanks for sharing!  It *too* was cute!
>
>Regards,
Aniko.
>

At 08:39 AM 4/9/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

>You, as a Canadian, should know better. The French-Canadians are not
>a minority in Quebec.

Thank you for this.  Of course the francophones are a majority in Quebec!
They've always been the majority there!  However, and this may come as a
surprise to you, they're an ever decreasing minority in Canada.

>In this case, therefore, it is the majority which tramples on the rights of
>the minority.

Sadly, this is all to often the case.  The Quebecois are trampling on the
rights of the anglophones and the allophones.  At the same time, they see
the majority anglophone population in Canada as a linguistic and cultural
threat to them.

>See, for example, store names, signs, or the provincial government's
>decision about who will go to what kind of school. A child whose parentage
>is French must go to French school;
>immigrants' children must go to French school. Only those children whose
>parents are English can send their children to English school. So,
>basically, your rights as an individual are trampled on. They have taken
>away your right to free choice.

In every province except Quebec it is ASSUMED that immigrants' children will
go to English language schools.  In fact there is often no choice as there
is no French language school in most communities.  When we arrived in
Ontario from Hungary we had no choice.  But we never felt that something was
taken away from us.  Quebec francophones are trying to do what the other
provinces have always been doing.  But I won't deny that they're sensitive,
touchy, and prone to over-reacting.  They may become masters of their own
house, 'maitre chez nous', but maybe no one will want to visit.

>  That horrible monoculture, whether you like it or not, is coming.

You acquiesce too easily to something that may yet lead to fascism with a
human face.

>I can see it myself just, let's, between 1965 and 1995. The opposite of
>your "cursed" monoculture over the centuries produced terrible bloodshed as
>nations, acting as individuals, jumped at each other's throat at certain
>intervals.

It depends on how you look at it, Eva.  I agree, there has been much
bloodshed throughout history.  Human against human.  Sounds like monoculture
problems to me.

>The opposite of your monoculture is often nothing else but hatred of the
>"other."

Oh please!  Have a look at the environmental damage that monoculture farming
has created. Now, obviously, I can't say that what has happened to the
environment will also happen to us.  But socially, I prefer a community of
communities as opposed to your monoculture proto-fascist, legally superior
society.  And you call me utopian?

>>As for me sympathizing with nationalism you've got it all wrong.  I don't.
>>I only support a peoples right to self determination.
>
>        Well, I am afraid, this doesn't sound genuine to me. Because that's
>exactly what you are supporting--nationalism.

Maybe if I wrote it louder I'd sound genuine to you.  I ONLY SUPPORT A
PEOPLES RIGHT TO SELF DETERMINATION.

Joe Szalai

On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Dunfords wrote:

I'd love to get my hands on some of Karinthy's issues.
> Judging by his four incredible words floating around the net the last few
> days, I'd love to see more.

Aniko,  (and English-only speaking list members:)

I do hope that you will find these very representative specimens from the
best that little Hungary ever had to offer!

If you have any difficulty reading it in Hungarian, there is a collection
of some of Karinthy's work in the book "Grave & Gay" (author listed as
Frigyes Karinthy) in a Corvina (Budapest) edition, from a half dozen
translators' pens, in English !
                   ~~~~~~~~~~
The book was assigned the following ID:  ISBN 963 13 0907 X
The Corvina number is CO 1894-h-8082

It is not the same as reading the original, but better than nothing!

For newcomers to the Karinthy scene: this is the author, who, in the late
1930s underwent a delicate brain surgery and put down the detailed
account of this feat in his book: "Journey Around My Skull"  i.e.:
"Utaza's a koponya'm ko:ru:l"  (excuse the crazy accent marks.)

As I have stated before, you should also read any and all of the
fabulously witty volumes by George Mikes.

One more recommendation, also available in English:  "Kazohinia" by Sa'ndor
Szathma'ri.  (Translated by Inez Kemenes; revised by Fred Macnicol)  It is
a book that was dedicated to the giant spirit of Karinthy and is written
in the same vein.  Its subject is a modern Gulliver's Travels.  Also
pulished by Corvina Press,  ISBN 963 13 3518 6

For the Hungarian original, look for the same title, published by Magveto
Konyvkiado, Budapest, 1057.

Happy reading to you all, and have fun!
Martha

On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:

> surprise to you, they're an ever decreasing (francophone) minority in
Canada.

With an overwhelming Catholic population I find that hard to believe,
unless their Asian counterparts are multiplying like rabbits.

> In every province except Quebec it is ASSUMED that immigrants' children will
> go to English language schools.  In fact there is often no choice as there
> is no French language school in most communities.

There is a BIG difference of not having a type of school OFFERED or being
prevented from enrolling where it is available !

Martha

Hi Andras, Joe, Eva et al:

I have been sitting back and thoroughly enjoying your debate and have
resisted jumping in quite a few times.  The last statement  written by Joe,
managed to brake my silence vow:'

>Sadly, this is all to often the case.  The Quebecois are trampling on the
>rights of the anglophones and the allophones.  At the same time, they see
>the majority anglophone population in Canada as a linguistic and cultural
>threat to them.
>
Have you seen the news the last couple of day?  France has decreed the
Internet to be a potentially dangerous threat regarding the preservation of
the French language at large; given that the "majority" of interaction up to
the time of the article, has taken place utilizing the English language.
The article further stated that, France is  negotiating for a gateway of
it's own,  that will allow the usage of only french language to combat this
threat.... If I remember correctly, the article's title was "Cyberspace
Language War".

I realize that it is quite off the topic; but also fits in quite nicely I
thought.  Apologize for the inconvenience of the interjection.
>
Aniko

To all of you - a request:

Please take care and change the subject line when the topic within is no
longer referring to it.  Sony & Philips and Canada and monocultures and
fascism, etc. are not all one and the same.  We all could benefit from a
bit of organization.

Thank you,
Martha

Martha Bihari wrote:

>> In every province except Quebec it is ASSUMED that immigrants' children will
>> go to English language schools.  In fact there is often no choice as there
>> is no French language school in most communities.
>
>There is a BIG difference of not having a type of school OFFERED or being
>prevented from enrolling where it is available !

Or just the polite way of prevention from enrolling. At a 'liberal' part of
the world (like Silicon Valley), they would not write:
'Your records are very poor. We do not need such a loser.'
They would most probably write:
'Thank you for applying ........, your records are very impressive, we
would gladly offer you ........., however ....................'

Janos

Andras Kornai ) wrote:
:
: ...
:
: In short, I'd much rather have faceless unelected bureaucrats in
: Brussels deciding certain matters than the duly elected representatives
: of the people, especially if they are like Milosevic or Meciar.
:
: ...

Ahem.

May I be so bold as to direct your attention to China, Cuba, or North
Korea, then?  No shortage of "faceless unelected bureaucrats deciding
certain matters" there!  As for me, well, I have this attachment to the
old-fashioned idea of one being able to have at least *some* say in
*some* matters of importance.

Two good things about democracy are that 1) by and large and in the long
run, nations elect the kind of leaders they deserve, and 2) if you don't
like the way tings are going where you are, you move.  Say, from
Montreal to Toronto.  Or to China.  Or Cuba.  Or North Korea.

Take what's happening in Hungary these days as an example.  By and
large, the Hungarian public is politically uneducated.  Note that I am
not talking about the English-speaking, black turtleneck-wearing,
Jean-Paul Sartre-reading, chain-smoking intellectual clientele of
Budapest's better cafes;  I am talking about Jozsi bacsi and Juliska neni
in Mateszalka (no offense intended to those readers of this group who
have a sentimental attachment to Mateszalka).  So, since the public is
politically uneducated, it elects leaders like Gyula Horn.  I have no
problem with the fact that Gyula Horn was elected (as long as it is what
the Hungarian public wanted) because I don't have to live in Hungary if
I don't want to.  Instead of Beijing, Havana, or Pyongyang, I am looking
at San Francisco, but the idea is the same.

Hats off to the likes of Margaret Thatcher for not relinquishing control in
important matters to faceless, unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.  If I
were a British citizen at the time when Britain becomes fully integrated
into some pan-European political system with the aforementioned bureaucrats
in Brussels running the show, I might find myself beginning to see China as
a viable alternative.  At least the women there are better looking.

Regards,

-Attila