Hi Andy
>At 12:00 PM 20/04/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Aniko:there are a couple of statements I object to.
>1.Canada has a ton of problems,not unlike the States.Please clarifie what
>you ment by that?
Without getting into a major debate about Canada, what I simply meant was
that as much as I like living here, by no means do I consider this country
to be perfect.  Quebec's unrest poses a major problem - signs of decreased
foreign investment could be an idication.  Taxation levels also - we are
loosing alot to the south of us, simply due to this one factor.  Cutbacks,
downsizing, decreased dollar value, decreased social services, increased
cost of living, youth unemployment, education quality, cost of travel
within the country etc etc etc .... to name a few.

>2.Would you like to have one country,called US.?
Is this a trick question or something?  Whether I like or not, is quite
irrelevant.  To my knowledge, there already is, and has been for quite some
time a country called US:-).  I think that you must be referring to my
bizarre theory?  What I meant was, that, Canada has specific strengths and
weaknesses.  The US likewise.  One's area of weakness often appears to be
the other's area of strength.  Rather than spending mega bucks on space
exploration for example, why could the two countries not divert enough
interest, energy and funds towards a) recognizing this, b) analyzing the
parameters of what constitutes each respective country's individual
strengths?  It's not like we're all that far from each other?  This
exercise could potentially result in learning alot from each other.
Applying that knowledge could potentially end up by greatly reducing the
weaknesses in both, thereby resulting in building a better future for each
of the respective countries.  (I told you up front,  that this is a bizarre
concept.   However bizarre it might sound though, I think it has alot of
merit - when one takes some time to really think about it.

Hope I've answered your questions.
Best regards,
Aniko

Hi Agnes:  At 04:12 PM 20/04/97 -0600, you wrote:
>aheringer > wrote:
>> Well, Aniko, it may still happen, if the next Quebec referendum
>> will be victorious and they are going to separate.  Then, sooner
>> or later, we will all join the US....

For some reason, this never did reach me.  I found it, by scanning through
HIX HUNGARY upon arrival.  Seems that you are not alone in misinterpreting
my intended words to Eva.  I am copying a reply I recently wrote to Andy.
Hope that it eventually finds you, and also, that it might clarify my
thoughts.
Best, Aniko

Begins Copied reply to Andy
 Hi Andy
>At 12:00 PM 20/04/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Aniko:there are a couple of statements I object to.
>1.Canada has a ton of problems,not unlike the States.Please clarifie what
>you ment by that?
Without getting into a major debate about Canada, what I simply meant was
that as much as I like living here, by no means do I consider this country
to be perfect.  Quebec's unrest poses a major problem - signs of decreased
foreign investment could be an idication.  Taxation levels also - we are
loosing alot to the south of us, simply due to this one factor.  Cutbacks,
downsizing, decreased dollar value, decreased social services, increased
cost of living, youth unemployment, education quality, cost of travel
within the country etc etc etc .... to name a few.

>2.Would you like to have one country,called US.?
Is this a trick question or something?  Whether I like or not, is quite
irrelevant.  To my knowledge, there already is, and has been for quite some
time a country called US:-).  I think that you must be referring to my
bizarre theory?  What I meant was, that, Canada has specific strengths and
weaknesses.  The US likewise.  One's area of weakness often appears to be
the other's area of strength.  Rather than spending mega bucks on space
exploration for example, why could the two countries not divert enough
interest, energy and funds towards a) recognizing this, b) analyzing the
parameters of what constitutes each respective country's individual
strengths?  It's not like we're all that far from each other?  This
exercise could potentially result in learning alot from each other.
Applying that knowledge could potentially end up by greatly reducing the
weaknesses in both, thereby resulting in building a better future for each
of the respective countries.  (I told you up front,  that this is a bizarre
concept.   However bizarre it might sound though, I think it has alot of
merit - when one takes some time to really think about it.
Hope I've answered your questions.
Best regards,
Aniko
The End of copied reply to Andy, but .... ooopps, not quite, THE END per
say,  so I see!

>Agnes,
>I might put in a kind word for you when you-all (jaaal) try to join up with
>the good old (ol) USA, but I don't think I want Aniko.  She is-not (int)
>deserving enough (nuff) for America.
>----------------------------------------------------
>Istvan - It is a privilege to live in Colorado -
>----------------------------------------------------

My Goodness Istvan! - I thought that we were all "communist garbage" and
you stopped association..... yet here you are again????  I am left to
wonder though as to how much of a privilidge it is for Colorado to have you
to boast about.

"Andrew J. Rozsa" > writes:

> ... I think that Hungarian is an easy language, but it is UNLIKE any
> other, hence the perception that it is difficult. The pronunciation is
> murder and you have to have a fine ear for languages to hear the sounds
> and a fine brain to be able to replicate them.

A fair experiment would be to take 10 randomly selected Hungarian
teenagers, drop them into an American high school class, and test
their English after a year has gone by.  Then take 10 randomly selected
American teenagers, and ship them to Hungary for the equivalent experiment.
I'm not talking about the typical ex-pat getto setup, but a total immersion
treatment: enrolling in an ordinary Hungarian high school, living among
Hungarians, doing the Hungarian equivalent of hanging out at the mall,
watching Hungarian television, and so forth.  I'll bet you that in either
group, nine out of the 10 will be able to pass for a native after one year.
The first experiment is being done daily; the second is much less frequent,
so we have too small a statistical base to make a reasonable guess.

The phonetics of Hungarian is of course difficult, but not uniquely so.
Anyone who has difficulty with the Hungarian rolling 'r' will probably
find the French or German 'r' just as difficult.  There are
stereotypical mistakes Italians make when they try to pronounce English,
and a different set of mistakes are made by Frenchmen even after
decades spent in an English-speaking country.  Have you ever heard a
Frenchman pronounce the English word "hit" correctly?  Most Americans
have trouble reproducing regional accents other than their own.
Meryl Streep is justifiably famous for her ability to switch from a
Brooklyn accent to a Polish immigrant accent, or an Australian one.
Most Hollywood actors make a complete mush of regional accents even
after years of expert training.

As for grammar, the one thoroughly mystifying feature of Hungarian is
the presence of two completely different conjugations for every verb
("alanyi" es "targyas ragozas").  But conceptually this is no more
difficult than the Russian verb structure, where each verb has two forms.
Hungarian pronouns are also somewhat hairy.  Nouns, on the other hand,
are enormously simplified by the lack of gender in Hungarian.  Once
a student figures out the laws of vowel harmony and the distinction
between front vowels and back vowels ("magas" es "mely maganhangzok"),
the declination of nouns turns out to be much simpler than in German
or Russian.  The other examples mentioned by Bandi ("on, maga, te",
"ne tessek haragudni", "hogy tetszik lenni") -- all these convoluted
locutions are on the way out anyway.  The under-50 generation seems
to be getting along just fine using "te" in just about every situation.
(Apparently the same thing is happening on the Net, by the way.)

I wonder if Hungarians have an emotional investment in the belief that
Hungarian is hellishly difficult.  I almost feel the difficulty of the
language is taken as another badge of excellence, something to be proud
of.  Reminds me of the articles in the Hungarian press a few years ago
about the unsuccessful efforts of the Japanese to market their condoms
in Hungary.  It turns out they were too small for the Hungarian market,
you see.  There was a certain air of smugness about the reports on this
topic.  The idea that Hungarian is monstrously difficult seems to
trigger a similar hairy-chested macho complex which gets in the way
of an objective comparison.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 02:27 AM 4/20/97 -0300, Anikor wrote:
>
> >Now Eva .... be fair ha?  'Sides, it's not like you to generalize to this
> >degree!  As much as I do like living in Canada I'll be the first to admit
> >(and have in many posts) to it's ton of problems, not unlike the States.
> >Nor am I a part of any anti-Americanism chorus.
>
>         I am sorry. You are right. You are not of them, but I can think of a
> couple! Best, Eva
Right so. ( Excuse me. I felt like. ) Best, Miklos

aheringer wrote:
>
> >Nor am I a part of any anti-Americanism chorus.  But know what?  I have
> >this bizarre theory, that if one could successfully combine all the
> >strengths of the States, with all the strengths of Canada, the
> weaknesses
> >of the combined two would likely become minute.  (Now ... before you go
> >killing yourself laughing, stop and really think about this bizarre
> concept
> >for a minute .....)  And, by all means, have a field day with it
> >....:-)))))). (Not to mention the rest of ya)
>
> Well, Aniko, it may still happen, if the next Quebec referendum will be
> victorious and they are going to separate.  Then, sooner or later, we
> will all join the US....  Otherwise, I feel the same about itthon and
> otthon.  After all, I was 23 when I left and that was 40 years ago.  That
> shows you how important those formative years are!
>
> Agnes
Aniko & Agnes, I recall - back in those days - I saw that picture
of the Earth taken from the moon. And I said and FELT, yes, there I am
at home.
Ain4t that great?
Miklos

Andy Kozma wrote:
>
> At 08:53 PM 4/19/97 GMT, you wrote:
> >>        Just to give you an example. The following story had to take
> >place
> >>sometime in the beginning of the 1960s. The first time ever the
> >coronation
> >>of the pope was shown on television. I am not a Catholic, I am not
> >>religious, but I thought it very exciting that we will be able to see
> >the
> >>actual coronation on tv. I said so in the living room of a friend of
> >mine's
> >>family. Reaction: the mother told me that now that I am a Canadian
> >citizen I
> >>am supposed to behave like a Canadian. I.e., I am not supposed to show
> >any
> >>excitement whatsoever at such things.
> >
> >Well, Eva, it is not this bad - she must have been a very stupid woman
> >and this is really an isolated case.  However, I admit I got into trouble
> >at the work place many times with my straightforward manners.  I could
> >never learn to act the English way.  Yes, I love Canada.  Canada was good
> >to us.  My children and - especially - my grandchildren are fully
> >integrated.  And with my particular situation of a sick husband, that I
> >mentioned before, I am happy that I live here and not in the US.
> >
> >Agnes
> >
> >Hurrah to you Agnes.One example and from that educated person draws
> consequences.
> Also proud to be Canadian.This country gave me freedom,no discrimination,and
> valuable lessons.
> Andy.
> Andy Kozma
> 
> Toronto.
Gee! Canada can be proud of all you guys and gals! Miklos

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 12:48 AM 4/20/97 GMT, Kristof wrote:
>
> >I was a missionary for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
> >(Utolso Napok Szentjei Jezus Krisztus Eghyhaza -- a bad translation in my
> >opinion).  I was in Budapest for two years, half of them on Balassi Balint
> >Utca, right across the street from the Feher Haz.  I watched our church
> >grow from ten members to over a hundred, ninety percent of the growth
> >occurring under Kadar and Grossz Karoly.  Of course, the growth has been
> >far more dramatic since the fall of the Berlin Wall, etc.  In the period,
> >though, I studied as many of the other churches as I could, trying to
> >establish what was going to cause me to wind up in prison and what was
> >going to be okay.  It was a near thing, but we accomplished what we were
> >sent to do.
> >
> >More, if you need it.
>
> No.  No more please.
>
> The growth of western (read - American) churches and fast-food joints in
> Hungary are as welcome as cold sores before an important date.
>
> Joe Szalai
> Joseph G. Szalai
> University of Waterloo
> Dana Porter Library
> 
Jusz want to remind you : you forgot : IMHO. ( not that I wouldn4t
share this opinion of yours, but it4s just my humble opinion, too. )
( Especially with fast food....it4s no longer Budapest. It4s Bodepest. )
M

aheringer wrote:
>
> >I heard that the gift of languages is closely related to the gift of
> >music. In my small circle of friends this generalization seems to
> >have genuine foundation!
> >
> >I would like to meet some of those people whom others find
> >speaking the given non-mother tongue (English or Hungarian)
> >so natively that a native couldn't recognize them as foreigners!
> >I bet they've learned that language before that magic age of
> >12-15!
> >
> >Another thing I've found, the more languages one learns, the
> >easier it gets to learn yet another (common rootwords, etc.),
> >however the purity of pronanciation is inversly related to the
> >number of languages spoken.
> >
> >An experience based  personal opinion for what it's worth!
> >
> I fully agree.  Agnes
Agnes, who wrote the text you agree with`I wanted to answer, but don4t
find the original message. Thanks. Miklos

At 10:05 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Gabor Farkas wrote:

<snip>
>I had a strange experience in Finland. If you hear people talking, without
>listening, it sounds exactly like Hungarian (accents, vowels, etc.). Once
>you start listening, you don't understand one word.

I had the same experience in Budapest.  We were staying at a pension on
Hegyalja ut, in Buda, and one day a group of people came in.  They were
talking amongst themselves and, at first, I couldn't understand why I
didn't understand them.  It sounded Hungarian to my ears.  I thought that
maybe they were from Erde'ly, or some mysterious place like that.  I had to
listen really carefully to realize that they weren't speaking Hungarian at
all.  After they left I asked the manager what language they were speaking
and he told me that they were a group of Finnish tourists.

Joe Szalai

Having struggled and suffered to make grammatical sense of Hungarian,
which Andi correctly mentions is totally unlike any other of which I am
aware, I have a vested interest in the language being hellishly difficult.
 Otherwise, I have to believe that I am slow, and that the couple of
hundred of my compadres who failed utterly to speak without easily
discernible American accent are complete fools.

There is this, though.  In Hungarian, the ragozas causes significant
problems for English speakers, because we have so few suffixes ourselves.
But at least in Hungarian there are some rules which apply.  English is
such a hodgepodge of rules and laws and vague suggestions, it astounds me
that any rational mind can master it at all.  I tried to teach English in
Budapest, and mostly failed.  I just couldn't explain things like
"through" and "to" and "too" and "two" and "house" and "houses" and
"mouse" and "mice".

Hungarian is lyric, which English is not.  Hungarian is lawful, which
English is not.  Hungarian has at least six billion suffixes, which
English has not.  I speak English, but I love Hungarian.

Kristof

This the fifth in the series "Transborder Hungarians" summarized from the
HTMH's 1996 report.

E. CARPATO-UKRAINE (Karpatalja)	

1. DEMOGRAPHICS  Frp, 1941 to 1989 the Hungarian minority has
shrunk from about 250  to 155 thousand, while the total population has
increased by about 50%. Thus the 1989 Hungarian ratio was 12.5%
Reasons for the decline in Hungarians include deportations following
WWII and emigration in the last two decades. Emigration of recent is due
largely to economic causes. The Hungarian minority lives mostly in
clusters, with a number of towns having decidedly a Hungarian character.
Among the larger towns only Beregszasz has a Hungarian majority.

2 LEGAL STATUS.  The 1996 Supreme Council accepted a new
constitution for Ukraine, which guarantees the free use and protection of
minority languages. It also pledges to aid the culture, ethnicity and
religious parctices of the indigenous minorities and accepts the use of
their language in whatever field. 1992 legislation guarantees instruction
and cultural development in minority languages, free use of national
symbols and unimpeded crossborder association. It contains the
provisions of the 1991 bilateral treaty with Hungary.  Subsequently many
localities adopted Hungarian signs and street names, not seen under
either Czechoslovak or USSR administrations.

Politics. The Ukrainian electoral law does not allow candidates by national
social entities, but does not preclude their support of candidates. Thus the
1994 elections concluded with a Hungarian becoming member of the
Ukrainian Supreme Council. In local Carpatho- Ukraine elections the 59
member Council of Counties includes 9 Hungarian members. In many
jurisdictions there is a Hungarian council majority. There is however a
dearth of Hungarians in the civil service even in jurisdictions using
Hungarian as an official language.

In 1995 Ukraine became a member of the Council of Europe. It committed
itself to adopt the Council's Recommendation 1201 for minorities.

3. ECONOMICS. All of Ukraine has been under sever economic strains
since gaining independence, Carpatho-Ukraine included.  Urban
economies have suffered through the cutback in manufacturing, with the
overall economy increasingly relying on somewhat primitive agriculture.
The latter suffers from undercapitalization, abetted by unclear government
policies, such as land ownership provisions. There has not been official
restitution of lost or expropriated assets. Perhaps the most promising part
of the economy are the joint transborder enterprises, which are being
promoted by an economic development council for border regions.

4 EDUCATION The new laws encouraging mother-tongue instructions, has
started a program for expansion of such institutions from kindergarten to
University level. In the lower levels through middle school Hungarian
insitutions are expanding-or -as in the case of vocational schools-
Hungarian classes are being formed in Ukrainian institutions. Besides
State institutions, the Reformed Church maintains three Hungarian high
schools. (Gimnazium).  At the University level primary emphasis is on
teacher education and the sciences. There are no Hungarian instructions
in law, economics or information technology.

5. CHURCHES  About 65% of Hungarians belong to the Reformed
Church. The balance are Roman or Greek Catholic. They all suffer for
lack of clerical personnel. This is being remedied by Hungary- based
seminaries and -in the case of the Catholic church- by calling on
Hungarian monasteries to help out.

6. ASSOCIATIONS  In 1989 the Carpatho-Ukrainian Hungarian Cultural
Alliance (Karpataljai Magyar Kulturalis Szovetseg) or KMKSZ was formed
with about 22 thousand members. Subsequently a number of splinter
groups had been formed and some of these now include Transcarpathian
Hungarians under the umbrella of the Ukraine Hungarian Democratic
Association. In addition there are organizations devoted to professional,
artistic, scientific pursuits. In 1991 a Carpatho-Ukraine Hungarian
boyscout league was formed as well as a "young patriots" group.

7 MEDIA There is a daily paper (Karpati Igazi Szo- 16000 circ.) and a
number of periodicals, largely by the cultural associations. In addition
three Ukrainian dailies publish Hungarian language editions. Some of the
periodicals receive support from Hungary. There is a limited amount of
local radio and TV programming available; broadcasts from Hungary can
be received in most locations, but the audience is limited for lack of
suitable receiving equipment, especially in case of TV .

8 SUPPORT SYSTEMS State support is only available for cultural
activities, not for societal or rights advocacy. From Hungary there is
assistance provided by the Illyes Gyula foundation for cultural activities
and the Mocsary Lajos foundation for health services and for food and
clothing needs.

9. MAJORITY ENVIRONMENT.  While the legal framework permits the use
of Hungarian in many pursuits,  in actuality problems often remain at the
local level. Officials regularly send greetings to Hungarian festivities and
typically are represented by officials, but there have been occasional
contrary views expressed in some of the media. An example was the
milcentennial monument for the Verecke mountain pass (route of the Hungarian
tribes) which was at first approved, then stopped by bureaucratic
regulations. Still unresolved, but termed "encouraging at presstime".

A.J. Vadasz
5743 Pignut Mtn. Dr.
Warrenton VA 20187
USA T:540 349 1408

This the fifth in the series "Transborder Hungarians" summarized from the
HTMH's 1996 report.

E. CARPATO-UKRAINE (Karpatalja)	

1. DEMOGRAPHICS  Frp, 1941 to 1989 the Hungarian minority has
shrunk from about 250  to 155 thousand, while the total population has
increased by about 50%. Thus the 1989 Hungarian ratio was 12.5%
Reasons for the decline in Hungarians include deportations following
WWII and emigration in the last two decades. Emigration of recent is due
largely to economic causes. The Hungarian minority lives mostly in
clusters, with a number of towns having decidedly a Hungarian character.
Among the larger towns only Beregszasz has a Hungarian majority.

2 LEGAL STATUS.  The 1996 Supreme Council accepted a new
constitution for Ukraine, which guarantees the free use and protection of
minority languages. It also pledges to aid the culture, ethnicity and
religious parctices of the indigenous minorities and accepts the use of
their language in whatever field. 1992 legislation guarantees instruction
and cultural development in minority languages, free use of national
symbols and unimpeded crossborder association. It contains the
provisions of the 1991 bilateral treaty with Hungary.  Subsequently many
localities adopted Hungarian signs and street names, not seen under
either Czechoslovak or USSR administrations.

Politics. The Ukrainian electoral law does not allow candidates by national
social entities, but does not preclude their support of candidates. Thus the
1994 elections concluded with a Hungarian becoming member of the
Ukrainian Supreme Council. In local Carpatho- Ukraine elections the 59
member Council of Counties includes 9 Hungarian members. In many
jurisdictions there is a Hungarian council majority. There is however a
dearth of Hungarians in the civil service even in jurisdictions using
Hungarian as an official language.

In 1995 Ukraine became a member of the Council of Europe. It committed
itself to adopt the Council's Recommendation 1201 for minorities.

3. ECONOMICS. All of Ukraine has been under sever economic strains
since gaining independence, Carpatho-Ukraine included.  Urban
economies have suffered through the cutback in manufacturing, with the
overall economy increasingly relying on somewhat primitive agriculture.
The latter suffers from undercapitalization, abetted by unclear government
policies, such as land ownership provisions. There has not been official
restitution of lost or expropriated assets. Perhaps the most promising part
of the economy are the joint transborder enterprises, which are being
promoted by an economic development council for border regions.

4 EDUCATION The new laws encouraging mother-tongue instructions, has
started a program for expansion of such institutions from kindergarten to
University level. In the lower levels through middle school Hungarian
insitutions are expanding-or -as in the case of vocational schools-
Hungarian classes are being formed in Ukrainian institutions. Besides
State institutions, the Reformed Church maintains three Hungarian high
schools. (Gimnazium).  At the University level primary emphasis is on
teacher education and the sciences. There are no Hungarian instructions
in law, economics or information technology.

5. CHURCHES  About 65% of Hungarians belong to the Reformed
Church. The balance are Roman or Greek Catholic. They all suffer for
lack of clerical personnel. This is being remedied by Hungary- based
seminaries and -in the case of the Catholic church- by calling on
Hungarian monasteries to help out.

6. ASSOCIATIONS  In 1989 the Carpatho-Ukrainian Hungarian Cultural
Alliance (Karpataljai Magyar Kulturalis Szovetseg) or KMKSZ was formed
with about 22 thousand members. Subsequently a number of splinter
groups had been formed and some of these now include Transcarpathian
Hungarians under the umbrella of the Ukraine Hungarian Democratic
Association. In addition there are organizations devoted to professional,
artistic, scientific pursuits. In 1991 a Carpatho-Ukraine Hungarian
boyscout league was formed as well as a "young patriots" group.

7 MEDIA There is a daily paper (Karpati Igazi Szo- 16000 circ.) and a
number of periodicals, largely by the cultural associations. In addition
three Ukrainian dailies publish Hungarian language editions. Some of the
periodicals receive support from Hungary. There is a limited amount of
local radio and TV programming available; broadcasts from Hungary can
be received in most locations, but the audience is limited for lack of
suitable receiving equipment, especially in case of TV .

8 SUPPORT SYSTEMS State support is only available for cultural
activities, not for societal or rights advocacy. From Hungary there is
assistance provided by the Illyes Gyula foundation for cultural activities
and the Mocsary Lajos foundation for health services and for food and
clothing needs.

9. MAJORITY ENVIRONMENT.  While the legal framework permits the use
of Hungarian in many pursuits,  in actuality problems often remain at the
local level. Officials regularly send greetings to Hungarian festivities and
typically are represented by officials, but there have been occasional
contrary views expressed in some of the media. An example was the
milcentennial monument for the Verecke mountain pass (route of the Hungarian
tribes) which was at first approved, then stopped by bureaucratic
regulations. Still unresolved, but termed "encouraging at presstime".

A.J. Vadasz
5743 Pignut Mtn. Dr.
Warrenton VA 20187
USA T:540 349 1408

Joe Szalai writes:

> English is a difficult language to learn, even though I don't remember
> learning it.  The problem with English is that, to be proficient in it,
> the student has to learn two languages - spoken English and written
> English.  To a Hungarian, or anyone who's mother tongue is phonetic,
> English is bewildering for this reason alone.

I agree that English is a difficult language to learn well, but I don't
think spelling is the main hurdle.  The hardest thing about English is
the infinite subtlety of English idioms.  In general, it is impossible
to fathom the meaning of an idiomatic expression from the meaning of
its components.  You just have to take them as they come.  If you take
a simple expression such as "put up", then you have no clue about the
meaning of "putting up with something", or "putting someone up for the
night".  Or take the words putdown, crackdown, crack-up, wind-down,
take down (as in taking notes), take up (as in taking up an instrument)
take up space, take off, uptake (as in slow on the uptake), letdown,
let-up, and all their variations.  You can speak passable English with
only about 600 words, but the number of idiomatic expressions you can
form out of those 600 words is astronomical.  The apparent simplicity
of English grammar is deceiving.

"Miklos K. Hoffmann" > pronounces the
following magic spell to illustrate the diabolical complexity of
Hungarian grammar:

> haz, hazainkat, hazainkon, hazainkrol, hazainkbol, hazainkba,
> hazainktol, hazainkig,....

I fail to see the point.  Looks like a completely regular sequence
to me.  Now if you would care to explain the difference between
imparfait subjonctive and ordinary imparfait, or why German has
eight separate ways of forming the plural of a noun, and how to
figure out when each of these is appropriate...

-----
Gabor Fencsik

J.Szalai wrote:

>The growth of western (read - American) churches and fast-food joints in
>Hungary are as welcome as cold sores before an important date.

Well, I guess you are neither Hungary nor 'the Hungarians' so you are not
eligible to say what is welcomed in Hungary. You can tell your opinion,
with what in this case I agree (unfortunately).
I do not know much about the Mormon Church, I don't say it is a destructive
organisation but I think Hungary and the Hungarians should be very cautious
with churches and cults from the US. The last thing what we need (I think),
Hungarian Applewhites and 'Heaven Gate'-s.

J.Zs

At 03:45 PM 21/04/97 -0400, you wrote:
Hi Andy!

>>Here is another question Aniko:In your definition is the US a more perfect
>>Country?
IMHO, there is not such thing as a perfect country.

>>Wich Country do you call perfect?
I don't know of one.

>>>No it is not s trick question.I thoguht you would like to have one country
>>called US.I rather take the Canadian weakness then the US.
No, I would not.  Sorry that my thoughts were not expressed more clearly
during the first go around.

>>Bee good,and have pleasant dreams.
I try .... but it's hard:-))).  Thank you - you also!
Take care
Aniko

At 04:15 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>J.Szalai wrote:
>
>>The growth of western (read - American) churches and fast-food joints in
>>Hungary are as welcome as cold sores before an important date.
>
>Well, I guess you are neither Hungary nor 'the Hungarians' so you are not
>eligible to say what is welcomed in Hungary.

What on earth do you mean by this, Janos?  I have as much right as you to
say what is, and what is not, welcomed in Hungary.  You're just going on
another one of your right-wing, nationalist crusades to decide who is, and
who isn't a "real" Hungarian, aren't you?  Don't you know that that's a
losers game.

Joe Szalai

In article >, 
says...
>
>aheringer wrote:
>>
>> >Nor am I a part of any anti-Americanism chorus.  But know what?  I
have
>> >this bizarre theory, that if one could successfully combine all the
>> >strengths of the States, with all the strengths of Canada, the
>> weaknesses
>> >of the combined two would likely become minute.  (Now ... before you
go
>> >killing yourself laughing, stop and really think about this bizarre
>> concept
>> >for a minute .....)  And, by all means, have a field day with it
>> >....:-)))))). (Not to mention the rest of ya)
>>
>> Well, Aniko, it may still happen, if the next Quebec referendum will
be
>> victorious and they are going to separate.  Then, sooner or later, we
>> will all join the US....  Otherwise, I feel the same about itthon and
>> otthon.  After all, I was 23 when I left and that was 40 years ago.
That
>> shows you how important those formative years are!
>>
>> Agnes
>Aniko & Agnes, I recall - back in those days - I saw that picture
>of the Earth taken from the moon. And I said and FELT, yes, there I am
>at home.
>Ain4t that great?
>Miklos

Jawohl!  Agnes

>UNLIKE any other, hence the perception that it is difficult. The
>pronunciation is
>murder
>
Bandi, so far I am concerned, it is the English pronounciation that is
murder...  My theory is that people didn't learn a lingua franca (i.e.,
Greek, Latin, and now English) because these are easy languages but
because it was/is a necessity to learn them to a certain degre.  If, for
one miraculous reason, Hungarian would become a lingua franca, people
would learn it, some better, some worse.

When I once again get to California, I will take you up on that paprikas
csirke!  Right now I am busy with my matzo ball soup....

Agnes

In article >, 
says...
>
>aheringer wrote:
>>
>> >I heard that the gift of languages is closely related to the gift of
>> >music. In my small circle of friends this generalization seems to
>> >have genuine foundation!
>> >
>> >I would like to meet some of those people whom others find
>> >speaking the given non-mother tongue (English or Hungarian)
>> >so natively that a native couldn't recognize them as foreigners!
>> >I bet they've learned that language before that magic age of
>> >12-15!
>> >
>> >Another thing I've found, the more languages one learns, the
>> >easier it gets to learn yet another (common rootwords, etc.),
>> >however the purity of pronanciation is inversly related to the
>> >number of languages spoken.
>> >
>> >An experience based  personal opinion for what it's worth!
>> >
>> I fully agree.  Agnes
>Agnes, who wrote the text you agree with`I wanted to answer, but don4t
>find the original message. Thanks. Miklos

I am sorry, I don't remember.  Maybe Bandi Rozsa?  I am not sure.  But
you can still reply, the public will read it!

Agnes

At 12:06 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Andy Kozma wrote:

>>>Aniko:there are a couple of statements I object to.
>>>1.Canada has a ton of problems,not unlike the States.Please clarifie what
>>>you ment by that?
>Here is another question Aniko:In your definition is the US a more perfect
>Country?

        But that's not what Aniko said. Aniko says that both countries have
problems.

        ESB

At 09:36 AM 4/21/97 -0400, Darren Purcell wrote:

>I have rarely heard and AMerican or Brit say English was
>difficult.

        Practically never. In fact, I think Americans would be surprised to
hear that English is a difficult language. It seems very easy to them and a
heck of a lot of people managed to learn it. So, why should it be difficult?
        As a child I knew quite a few adults whose mother tongue was not
Hungarian. A friend of my parents' father was Czech by birth and a
schoolmate of mine's mother was Viennese. As a small child I had a vague
notion that they spoke slightly differently, but, as far as I was concerned,
that difference was hardly noticeable.
        During the monarchy foreign accents in Hungary were commonplace: a
lot of Czech-, German-, and Polish-speaaking people settled in Hungary but
after the collapse of the monarchy and especially after 1945 that has all
changed: the country has become quite insular. But I think this is changing:
when there are about 20,000 Americans living in the country in addition to
the Chinese, the Arabs, and the Bosnians, only to mention the most important
groups, Hungarians will be more or more confronted with foreigners being
able to speak Hungarian. It will not be such a novelty.

        Eva

At 12:06 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Andy Kozma wrote:

>Maybe if I would live in the States I would swear that is the Best Country.
>Maybe?
>Andy.

        Surely, you would. ESB

At 09:21 AM 4/21/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote, remarking on Gabor Fencsik's
writing:

>You forgot to mention many Hungarian's penchant for reminding everyone of
>Hungary's small size, as if the size of a country has anyting to do with
>anything.  I have no doubt that it's an attempt to make success stories
>seem even more successful.

        Oh, yes, that's a good point. "Kis orszag vagyunk!" That's a
favorite. It also has something to do with self-pity, I think. ESB

At 12:47 PM 4/21/97 -0700, Gabor Fencsik wrote:

<snip>
>I agree that English is a difficult language to learn well, but I don't
>think spelling is the main hurdle.  The hardest thing about English is
>the infinite subtlety of English idioms.  In general, it is impossible
>to fathom the meaning of an idiomatic expression from the meaning of
>its components.  You just have to take them as they come.  If you take
>a simple expression such as "put up", then you have no clue about the
>meaning of "putting up with something", or "putting someone up for the
>night".  Or take the words putdown, crackdown, crack-up, wind-down,
>take down (as in taking notes), take up (as in taking up an instrument)
>take up space, take off, uptake (as in slow on the uptake), letdown,
>let-up, and all their variations.  You can speak passable English with
>only about 600 words, but the number of idiomatic expressions you can
>form out of those 600 words is astronomical.  The apparent simplicity
>of English grammar is deceiving.

Yes, English idioms are problamatic.  However, are they really much more
difficult than Hungarian idioms?  Besides, one can learn spelling - idioms
you have to live.  That's probably why I've never run into someone who's
studied and learnt idiomatic English.  If they picked up idiomatic
expressions, they were usually dated.

Joe Szalai

Miklos Hoffman:

>> Agnes
>Aniko & Agnes, I recall - back in those days - I saw that picture
>of the Earth taken from the moon. And I said and FELT, yes, there I am
>at home.
>Ain4t that great?

        I know that it will sound like sacrilege to some but really: doesn't
the joining of English Canada and the United States sound almost a natural
development? Don't these two countries actually form an economic, political,
and linguistic unit? After all, one must admit that Canada is an artificial
construct. ESB

Miklos:  At 08:19 PM 21/04/97 GMT, you wrote:
>In article >, 
>says...
>>Aniko & Agnes, I recall - back in those days - I saw that picture
>>of the Earth taken from the moon. And I said and FELT, yes, there I am
>>at home.
>>Ain4t that great?
Cute Miklos!  You're getting better, every day!:-)
Aniko

At 05:32 PM 4/18/97 -0700, Gabor Fencsik  wrote:

>In general, I think the idea that Hungarian is especially difficult to
>learn is a myth.  Compared to English or German, let us say, it is just
>as easy to learn badly, and just as hard to learn well.  Besides, every
>two-year old can do it without visible brain damage, so how can it be
>all that difficult?

Did you ever try to learn Chinese? Now that must be hard...

Gabor D. Farkas

At 08:30 PM 4/20/97 -0400, Bandi Rozsa wrote:


>... you have to have a fine ear for languages to hear the sounds and a
>fine brain to be able to replicate them.

I had a strange experience in Finland. If you hear people talking, without
listening, it sounds exactly like Hungarian (accents, vowels, etc.). Once
you start listening, you don't understand one word.

Gabor D. Farkas

J.Szalai wrote:

>>J.Szalai wrote:
>>
>>>The growth of western (read - American) churches and fast-food joints in
>>>Hungary are as welcome as cold sores before an important date.
>>
>>Well, I guess you are neither Hungary nor 'the Hungarians' so you are not
>>eligible to say what is welcomed in Hungary.
>
>What on earth do you mean by this, Janos?  I have as much right as you to
>say what is, and what is not, welcomed in Hungary.

Maybe my English again. I meant that nobody can say what the Hungarians
want or what is welcomed in Hungary. We can only say what we think they
want or should do.
'Hogy a tovabbi felreerteseket elkeruljuk: Magyaran, senkinek sincs
joga azt mondani, hogy a 'Magyarok' ezt vagy azt akarnak, szeretnek ,
utalnak, stb. Csak annit mondhatunk, szerintem ezt vagy azt akarnak....'
In other word, Joe, I did not like the way how you expressed yourself.

>say what is, and what is not, welcomed in Hungary.  You're just going on
>another one of your right-wing, nationalist crusades to decide who is, and
>who isn't a "real" Hungarian, aren't you?  Don't you know that that's a
>losers game.

I guess this is one of your pieces what we can abbreviate as BS, again.

J.Zs

At 08:22 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:

>At 12:06 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Andy Kozma wrote:
>
>>Maybe if I would live in the States I would swear that is the Best Country.
>>Maybe?
>>Andy.
>
>        Surely, you would. ESB

Hmmm.  Eva Balogh sounds like an American nationalist.  Interesting, indeed.

Joe Szalai

I cannot identify with that kind of nationalism as I can't with any kind of
nationalism.
       -- Eva Balogh (at 08:18 PM 4/18/97 -0400)

At 08:22 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:

<snip>
>        I know that it will sound like sacrilege to some but really: doesn't
>the joining of English Canada and the United States sound almost a natural
>development? Don't these two countries actually form an economic, political,
>and linguistic unit? After all, one must admit that Canada is an artificial
>construct. ESB

Are you looking for a fight, Eva?  Manifest Destiny is dead.  It rightfully
belonged to the 19th-century.  We're about to go into the 21st.

Joe Szalai

Szia Gabor!
Gabor Farkas - At 10:01 PM 21/04/97 -0400, you wrote:
Nice to see you name again .... been awhile.>
>Did you ever try to learn Chinese? Now that must be hard...
>Gabor D. Farkas
I am sure that the linguists on the group can best address the
technicalities of the oriental languages.  But from personal experience
what I find most difficult if not impossible to grasp is the control that
one is required to utilize over one's tone of voice - or if you prefer
voice inflections.  (Of course, being very Hungarian in temperament, you
can imagine what I am talking about here:-)  I've found myself quite
confused many a times, when identical phrases are utilized in each (not
meaning both) Mandarin Chinese and Japanese, the only difference being the
tone of voice used - which of course changes the context of the meaning
drastically.  It cannot be impossible though to learn.  Several of our
acquaintances have succeeded - after a long immersion periods.
Aniko