Greg Grose wrote:

>In reply to your message of "Sat, 22 Oct 94 11: 00:15 PDT."
>             >
>Date: Sat, 22 Oct 94 12:47:32 -0700
>From: 
>
>WWW surfing to the rescue!
>
> From gopher://nysernet.org
>
>
>
>The Pataki Record


Thanx Greg, that wes informative.

Tibor

Glen Camp asks:

>        What makes you think women would improve over men's behavior?

I've been reading a book by Gerda Lerner,  _The Creation of Patriarchy_.
(Oxford University Press 1986)   It relies on archeological and historical
evidence and is framed by a sociology of knowledge approach to historical
consciousness.

>First, that seems to suggest we aren't part of the same human race, and
>second it seems very little progress is to be expected by such an expec-
>tation (which could be viewed as sexism??),


I am not at all suggesting that we are not part of the same species.
Through the last six to nine thousand years of human history and
prehistory, however, society and thus, the course of history has been
largely determined by men; or . at least, history has been written so that
whatever contributions women made, have been left out of account.  It is
hard to generalize, but it seems to me, that even if there are no
biological differences in the thought processes of men and women, (and the
current debate appears inconclusive from my layman's perspective)  there
surely is a historical, social, subcultural difference which might bring
new approaches.  Of course, its all academic, it ain't gonna happen.


> and third, the track record
>of women who have governed (Golda Meier, Indira Gandhi, Benizer Bhutto,
>Tansu Ciller) does not suggest a more enlightened rule than that shown
>by their male counterparts.


You are right.  Nor does the record of Canadian women politicians that I am
familiar with give reason for much hope.  But the  women  you list were the
heads of thoroughly patriarchal states and thus were constrained to
demonstrate more "virtue" (literally:manliness) then the men they worked
with in order to be able to govern..

>We must look elsewhere for progress and
>I think it's to be found via the Enlightenment ideas of universal educa-
>tion and an enlightened citizenry choosing just and creative leaders via
>a form of participatory democracy regardless of gender, class, or race,
>or religion.
>

It seems to me that the Enlightenment was the dawn of the historical period
of which we are now at the dusk.  Education is one of those irregular words
that 'conjugate' oddly: I educate, you indoctrinate, he/she brainwashes.

Seriously though, the Enlightenment gave us the hope that we could attain
knowledge, in contrast to the superstition of the 'dark ages' , and that in
posession of this knowledge, we would gradually develop a humane society.
After two hundred years of trying this route, we see that science, to the
degree that it discovers part of the way the universe really works, is
invariably misused, and often it has taken the function of latin in the
days of the church., that is, a way of mystification of the unpalatable
policy decisions of the certified smart people who are invariably guarding
the interest of the current elites.  This is what is behind the reference
to governments of "experts" (szake'rto"k) so popular  in Hungarian
political discourse these days.

Meanwhile, we are like the white men in this fable:

Coyote was resting on a cliff above a forest on a hot summer afternoon.  He
heard a noise and when he looked, he saw a white man standing on the lowest
branch of a giant fir sawing away at the branch he was standing on.  In a
little while, another white man, in a black hat and black wool suit with a
book under his arm and his shirt and coat all buttonned up, inspite of the
heat, walked by.  He got to the tree that the first man was sawing on.  He
said to the man with the saw, 'Don't you know what you are doing is
dangerous ?  You better stop it or you'll hurt yourself."   The man with
the saw got angry and yelled down, " Mind your own business, can't you see
I am busy working?  The trouble with people like you is you don't know the
meaning of work, so you spend your time bothering other folks, just get out
of here before I throw my ax at you!"    The black hatted one walked on.
Pretty soon the man in the tree sawed through the branch, fell down, broke
his neck and died.  Coyote shook his head and said to himself, "Isn't that
just like white men, half of them go around giving advice no one listens to
and the other half is cutting down what holds them up."


Cheers,

Tibor Benke

Matt wrote:

"  OK, I'll go along with that. I do not deny there are anti-semitic Hungarians
(just as there are anti-semitic Americans, etc.), but that hardly calls for
declaring Hungarians anti-semitic, in general. That's what I've been
reading here in the Hungarian list though from certain participants almost
constantly."

Well, according to a poll, recently published by HG (Heti Vilaggazdasag), more
than half of the Hungarians don't want to have Jewish neighbors and over 60%
don't want their kids marry a Jewish person.

True, arabs, blacks got even higher percentages. The problem is that Jews lived
in Hungary since the formation of the State and even a thousand year wasn't
long enough to be accepted by the majority of the population.  Could this be
'translated' to antisemitic tendencies in the general population ?

George Lazar writes:

> Well, according to a poll, recently published by HG (Heti Vilaggazdasag), mor
e
> than half of the Hungarians don't want to have Jewish neighbors and over 60%
> don't want their kids marry a Jewish person.

That seems to contradict the actual high rate of intermarriages between
Jews and Gentiles in Hungary.  Ergo, I think the poll was wrong.
In fact, I seem to recall another poll a couple of years ago that
indicated Hungarians being the most tolerant in East-Central Europe.

Joe

Joe:

     The MP who made anti-semitic comments against George Soros was Curka.  I
Believe he is no longer in the Government.  Do you know anything about him?
..marc

Subject: Re: The vote for... Hungarians-- at least 3
From: kanala
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 16:19:32 GMT
In article > ,  writes:
>In article >, >
writes:

>[... deleted ...]

>> in several swiss cantons, resident foreign citizens are entitled to
vote
>> in local elections. i believe the same is true of a number of other
>> western
>> european countries.
>
>As for Switzerland, I am not aware of this possibility.

my recollection is that foreign citizens who have been living there long
enough with a b-permit are entitled to vote in *local* elections in some
of the communities in the canton of neuchatel and perhaps schaffhausen.

in the city (or perhaps canton) of zurich, there is a separate
organisation
to represent the resident aliens' interests and concerns to the
authorities.

>There was
>a referendum on the subject only a couple of months ago and the
>souvereign (people) said NO.

was that a vote at the federal level? if at a cantonal level, then which
canton? if at a community level, then which one?

> Maybe the people are double nationals?

no. a dual citizen, one of whose citizenships is swiss does not need any
separate permission.

d.a.

I am just writing to find out if there are any Hungarian speakerrs in Anch
Anchorage, Alaska who would read this and be interested in a
conversation partner.  I have spent the last two years in Hungary
and would like to keep up what language skills I have  in Hungarian.
Please respond with an e-mail if you exist.  Koszonom.

>Tibor Benke writes:
>
>> We can get some idea of what the actual stone
>> age  life must have been like...by looking at what remains of Pacific
>> Northwest civilization.  Maybe life expectancy was shorter, but the quality
>> of life was certainly superior.
>
>How does one measure "quality of life" in stone age cultures?
>

Building remains tell us that shelter was adequate, Shalins' book shows
that gathering and hunting people even in the marginal ecological areas
they have been forced into lately, rarely engage in activity we would
consider work (having to do with gaining a living, manufacturing tools,
childcare, cooking, etc.) for more than 20 hours a week.  There is evidence
that social organization and economics were organized for sustainability.
There was warfare, but nothing that can compare with today.  Also no fear
of ecocatastrophe or nuclear winter.  So while one can't measure and
compare quality of life, I suspect that it was probably closer to what
human beings evolved to lead.  Even Jack London noted that Eskimos (more
corectly, Inuit) lived much better then English workers in the 19th
century.

>> Don't misunderstand me, I am not advocating that we return to
>> the stone age...
>
>If it was so certainly superior, why not?
>
>

Because a mesolithic lifestyle requires a world population density orders
of magnitude smaller then today's and I don't know how we would get rid of
all of the superflous people.  Maybe we could send them to outer space and
see how well the enterpreneurial spirit works without natural resources.

Well I gotta go hug some trees, bye for now.
;-)
Tibor

In article > JELIKO, 
writes:

>I am puzzled. After WWII more Jews returned to Hungary from nazi
>concentration camps than to any other country in Eastern Europe.

this is the first time i have heard such a claim. i'd be interested in
some sources for it.

> The leaders of the government who were responsible for the mistreatment
>of the Jews were severly punished.


this sentence would be true if the words "some of" were inserted between
the definite article and the following common noun.

>The subsequent government had many
>prominent Jews. The current government has many promninent Jews. Today,
>there is a well established and economically well off Jewish community
in
>Hungary. I am not going to discuss additional details about the
livelihood
>and freedoms of the Jewish community in Hungary, it is available to all.

i am afraid that i for one do not know where these details are to be
found. perhaps you could enlighten me.


>In spite of this, there is a near hysterical denouncing of Hungary by
>several list posters as an antisemitic place. If the place is so hated
why
>were so many interested in returning there and still living there?

the jewish population of hungary has been declining ever since 1945.
depending on whom you believe, the current figure is about 100,000
to 200,000. even the larger number is substantially less than half
the number of the jews who were left or returned --- voluntarily or
otherwise --- after the holocaust.

>Is the antisemitism claimed to be demonstarted against Jews in Hungary
is
>as a religion, as a race, or as a nation (Israel)?

there is only one "race': homo sapiens sapiens. anti-semitism is usually
aimed at the ethnic group called jews. it is sometimes couched in
pc terms and hidden under the guise of anti-zionism or as criticism of
israel. before you jump to any unwarranted and false conclusions, i am
*not* saying that all anti-zionism and/or all criticism of israel is
anti-semitism in disguise --- far from it.

the anti-semitism in hungary, as in so many other places, is directed
at a caricature and has little basis in fact. it is a socio-political
phenomenon with a long religious pedigree. until last century, there
was no anti-semitism as such. it was anti-judaism. the word
"anti-semitism"
was coined in the 1870's, as far as i know, in germany, and was directed
against even secular and baptised jews, not just the religious ones.

as for your favourite outlet for anti-semitism, choose whichever best
suits your temperament.

d.a.

Other than beatings, there was a rather tangible kniving as well (of
someone who dared to protest Jew-baiting molestation on a bus); however
according to their mentors the perpetrators were not skinheads but rather
national-conservative youth - who were provoked by the relentless
anti-Hungarian anti-antisemitist campaign, so I guess their revenge was
justified (for the clue-impaired: note my heavy sarcasm here ;-<)...

-- Zoli 

On Sat, 22 Oct 1994  wrote:
>
>     Sorry, but in your prior posts you did not hint about physical assaults
> as manifestation of anti-semitism. I was reading it as some kind of negative
> attitude toward Jews only, with nothing as tangible as beating up. I suppose
> such attacks would be extensively reported not only in the Hungarian papers
> but abroad as well. While I've read about several attacks on the Gypsies but
> I only recall one on a Jewish girl, by some skinheads.

Glen Camp writes:
>         Of course, that's what's nice about the 'Net-Free thought.  But
> my understanding is that Chernobyl was a graphite plant and that there
> are four in the U.S.  Is this incorrect?
Danger and graphite moderation is like two books both written on paper,
therefore equally good or bad. The only graphite moderated plants in the US
were used for plutonium production, one for a number of years (N reactor at
Hanford) also produced electricity. There are no power reactors in the US
that are graphite moderated. US power reactors are all equipped with
containment, which in case of accident contains the dangerous isotopes. No
such containment exists for the RBMK type Russian reactors, such as the one
which failed diuring a test while most of the technical staff was already
celebrating May day. (perhaps May day celebration should also be outlawed
as a cause of accident)

>Also the devastation was a good
> deal more severe than the Russians let on, it even poisoned vegetables in
> Greece and Sweden.
In fact IAEA studies show that it was not as severe as it was originally
shown. The evaluation of the effects is not conductad by the Russians. (the
reactor is in the Ukraine) but by UN (IAEA) groups. There is no conspiracy
 involved the results are published and carefully reviewed.

> In any event, nuclear power may be necessary in France
> but the U.S. has a good many other power resources which are far safer
> including wind, geothermal, etc.
There is no single source of power that is magically better than others.
All should be evaluated on the same basis and the best ones used. At one
time there was very extensive wind power generation in the US, you can
still see many old wind mills standing in disrepair. The industry was
killed by Roosevelts rural electrification program, which at great expense
run central station generated electricity to all farms. In some parts of
the US wind generators maybe useful. It takes about a hundred square miles
of windmill field to match one nuclear power plant. Geothermal is a tricky
wicket. There are other compounds beside steam (water) in the belly of
mother earth. I visited several units in New Zealand and the hydrogen
sulfide concentration in the areas is so high that the telephone company
had to install air cleaning systems to protect the silver contacts from
repeated failure. Hydrogen sulfide beside being very corrosive is a
stronger poison than hydrogen cyanide. Also not all areas are amenable for
geothermal generation in the US. Transportation of electricity is also a
significant cost factor.

>Why run the risk of nuclear plants if
> we don't need to?

Why run the risk of getting in your car?
>         What is the nuclear power situation in Hungary?

Four Russian built VVER (not graphite) reactors. No western style, but an
intermediate (lower pressure resistance) containment. One of the highest
capacity factors (on line time) for water cooled reactors. Currently
supplying about 45% of the country's electricity. Cooperating with many
western experts to improve safety.

I am always fascinated by the percieved thought that a conspiracy is
pushing one technology or another. The engineers designing anything be it
airplanes, cars or power sources are as interesdted in building the best,
safest and most economical item as possible; and the same is true for
corporations. If geothermal, for example, was so economical why wouldn't
anybody refrain from building them?

Regards,Jeliko.

Joe Pannon writes:

> All right!  Now how can I send him some campaign contribution?
> BTW, what is his politics overall?

If you so desire, you may do so :

Hungarians for Pataki
360 Lexington Ave
7th floor
New York NY 10164-2338

Regards,Jeliko.

> As promised here is a list of those members of the Kun government who
ended
> up in the Soviet Union either in the early 1920s, after the so-called
"Trial
> of the Commissars," or sometime in the early 1930s, after Hitler's
accession
> to power in Germany.
> (1) Bela Vago, first went to Austria, later to Germany, then to the
Soviet
> Union. Killed during the Stalinist purges, sometime in 1939.
> (2) Jeno Hamburger left for the Soviet Union in 1922. He was lucky: he
seemed
> to have died of natural causes in 1936.
> (3) Gyorgy Nyisztor was really lucky--he died in January 1956 in Hungary,
> after surviving the purges in the Soviet Union. Most likely he was too
> insignificant and didn't have a high profile job in the Soviet Union,
> although he had been there since 1922.
> (4) Karoly Vantus, arrive in the Soviet Union in 1922, after the Trial of
the
Eva Balogh writes:


> prisoners of war still in Soviet Russia. I remember checking the
biographies
> of each and coming to the conclusion that at least 90 percent of them
were
> killed during the purges.

Now was this red terror or white terror exterminating so efficiently the
erstwhile Hungarian communists? It looks like Stalin did more than Horthy.

Regards,Jeliko.

Glen Camp writes:

>         If he's a pro-gay rights Republican then his position violates
the
> GOP's national Party Program.  Does that make him a liberal Republican or
> a hypocritical Republican or neither and if so why?

As long as we ask the same question for many of the democratic candidates.

Regards,Jeliko.

>      The MP who made anti-semitic comments against George Soros was Curka.  I
> Believe he is no longer in the Government.  Do you know anything about him?

Marc,
I questioned the phrase "bu~do~s zsido" by any MP, not just ANY
anti-semitic statement,  BTW, the above phrase means "stinking Jew".
I doubt Csurka used that phrase.

Joe

> If you so desire, you may do so :
>
> Hungarians for Pataki
> 360 Lexington Ave
> 7th floor
> New York NY 10164-2338

Thanks, Jeliko!  My check is in the mail.

Joe

Bela Batkay writes:

> Surely Jeliko is being disingenuous in suggesting that because there are
> many Jews in the current government of Hungary, many Jews still live in
> the country by choice, etc., there cannot be anti-Semitism in Hungary.

Several posters indicated that Hungary in general was antisemitic. That is
the relation to my question. I do not disagree that there are Hungarians
who are anti-Semitic, however, I disagree that anti-Semitism is an endemic
trait of the Hungarians and I do feel that those who state it are anti-
Hungarian.

> If I were to argue that because there are many African-Americans in
> positions of power and influence at all levels of American government and
> many African-Amricans continue to live in this country by choice, there
can-
> not be racism in America, would Jeliko's response be any different?

No, it would not be, as long as the above clarification is used. There are
many blacks claiming anti-blackism for their problems who are also not
correct.

Regards,Jeliko.

Eva Balogh summs up commentary:
> which was the hallmark of the Kadar regime. It depends on the region, and
the
> social strata. There are some for whom "freedom simply an empty slogan."
He
> prepared a few interviews before the elections in the County of Be1ke1s
and
> the most often-heard sentence was: "What for do we have this circus
[meaning
> the elections], we are not the West, I will vote for Gyula Horn, anyway."
> Thus we must acknowledge that this is not a democratic society. It is not
the
> question what is the MSZP. The MSZP is what it is. Here we are talking
about
> us, about society.

Thank you for your periodic summaries. The above one reminds me of a recent
discussion with a friend whose brother asked him to sit down and watch pro
wrestling on television for five minutes, after which he was told by his
brother that there are people who believe that the wrestling is real and
they vote also.

There are many people in all societies who are not voting from well
absorbed and evaluated information, even when the information is available.

The problem is, in most cases, that (even in the US educational systems)
generally a single viewpoint is pushed and deductive analysis is not
thaught. Of course under the communist regime such analytical minds were an
anathema.

Regards,Jeliko.

I find it bemusing to discuss the merits of anarchism on a highly organized
government developed computational information exchange particularly from
government established educational institutions.

Regards,Jeliko.

Dear Jeliko,

 Can we have the names please? I could not see the kind of collective
guilt you charge (and practice)...

Thanks - Zoli
> Several posters indicated that Hungary in general was antisemitic. That is
> the relation to my question. I do not disagree that there are Hungarians
> who are anti-Semitic, however, I disagree that anti-Semitism is an endemic
> trait of the Hungarians and I do feel that those who state it are anti-
> Hungarian.

On Oct 22,  3:58pm, Greg Grose wrote:

>
> Pataki's rise to state prominence has been fairly swift though he has
> only served in the Senate two years after 8 years in the Assembly.
> Pataki's legislative career nearly came to a halt in 1992 when he barely
> defeated State Senate Mary Goodhue in a Republican primary.  Pataki
> challenged Goodhue in whose past campaigns he had worked.  She viewed
> him as a likely heir, but he joined other Assembly members tired of
> waiting around by challenging incumbent Senators in their party and
> accusing them of voting for state budgets that increased taxes.
> He raised over $460,000 to run the campaign and beat Goodhue in the primary
> by about 500 votes.  The amount he raised was second only to Senate
> Majority Leader Ralph Marino. He then easily won the general election even
> with Goodhue in on another line.


This is somewhat misleading. In the early Summer of 1992, Goodhue announced
that she was retireing and would not seek re-election. She apparently hoped
that a political ally of hers, whose name escapes me at the moment, could
inherit her seat without any real opposition. To her surprise, Pataki
announced he would run for the the seat. Realizing her ally didn't have a
chance against Pataki, Goodhue, a liberal Republican, announced she had
changed her mind, and would in fact run for another term. She apparently
expected Pataki to then bow out, but he didn't. Goodhue then launched a VERY
negative campaign, which, I think, turned off a lot of voters.

Heather Olsen

 wrote:
: Adam G's response:

: >Firstly, it rarely happens that somebody tries to beat you up 'cause you
have
: >bad breath.

:     Sorry, but in your prior posts you did not hint about physical assaults
: as manifestation of anti-semitism. I was reading it as some kind of negative
: attitude toward Jews only, with nothing as tangible as beating up. I suppose
: such attacks would be extensively reported not only in the Hungarian papers
: but abroad as well. While I've read about several attacks on the Gypsies but
: I only recall one on a Jewish girl, by some skinheads.

i know several people who did not know who their parents were -- or at leat one
of their parents was -- jewish until coming home one day from school and
saying "a piszkos zsidok" or reporting being called a "piszkos zsido" and
being upset. the parents had hoped to protect the child from anti-semitism by
ensuring that the child did not know about his/her "jewishness". why
would this be felt to be necessary in a society where anti-semitism is
restricted to a fringe, irrelevant group? where did these anti-semitic
comments originate if there is but a mere vestige of anti-semitism in hungary?

in each of the cases i kow, the person involved was shocked to learn of
his/her jewish heritage and began to pay more attention to "innocent
comments'. each of them has said to me that, yes, anti-semitism is still
alive in hungary even if it is not as overt and virulent as it has been
in the earlier half of this century.


: >Secondly, I do believe that it DOES indicate the general idea
: >people have about Jews if you get negative reactions (remarks, etc.) if you
: >make your ethnicity visible.

:     Hardly. It only indicates that some people, especially skinheads, have
: that problem. I still have my doubt though that display of a Star of David
: would cause such reaction in many places in Hungary. I've been to Hungary
: many times and used public transportation with people around me who
: showed obvious signs of Jewishness

what are these "obvious signs of jewishness"? did the hooves stick out from
the shoes, or the horns from the hat? was the blood of the christian child
still dribbling from the mouth?

: and I never noticed the kind of
: reactions you are alluding to. So I think what we have here is the belief
: of many Jews that they are hated than the actual physical manifestation
: of hatred against them.

are you really suggesting that unless there are beatings of jews there is no
anti-semitism? are you really suggesting that unless virulent outbursts are
the first priority and the most common form of behaviour, there is only a
"belief of many jews that they are hated"? life in most countries is
complex enough to rarely be devoted to a single aspect. thus i am sure
that no hungarian spends twenty-four hours a day talking about "foci",
but that does not mean that hungarians are as a group foci-fans. similarly
there are enough concerns for most people in hungary to be very busy
with many other matters than just the presence or absence of jews, so
it is hardly surprising that not evry person showing "obvious signs of
jewishness" is subjected to daily beatings. but that is neither here or
there when it comes to a discussion concerning socially prevalent attitudes.
there are still enough tabous in operation to prevent physical violence
from being more widespread, although these tabous seem to have become
eroded recently and physical violence has become more and more frequent
in recent times. i am sure there are many people who are unconsciously
anti-semitic, just as there are mnay people who harbour other racialist
beliefs without being conscious of the racialist content. that does
not mean they are not racialist in outlook, even if they are religiously
anti-violent and refuse to beat blacks, or jews or gypsies, or whomever.

:    OK, I'll go along with that. I do not deny there are anti-semitic
Hungarians
: (just as there are anti-semitic Americans, etc.), but that hardly calls for
: declaring Hungarians anti-semitic, in general. That's what I've been
: reading here in the Hungarian list though from certain participants almost
: constantly.


hungarian history is replete with anti-semitism --- even if it has only
been called that for about 100 years. there have also been significant
movements against it. what makes hungarian society as such anti-semitic
is the same thing as makes it anti-gypsy, namely a general prevalence
of such bigotted attitudes, often directed at phantom caricatures, but
nevertheless prevalent. one good indicator of how welcome a minority is
in a larger society is the personal experience of the members of that
minority. welcome minorities are usually thankful --- and relieved if
the welcome in in contrast to prior experience --- and do not have an
incentive to hide from a child his/her belonging to such a minority.

d.a.

:                                                             Matt

JELIKO ) wrote:
: Imi Bokor writes:

: > if you want references, just look up any set of archives on the jewish
: > laws in hungary in the 30's and 40's for a start.

: > d.a.

: To see how anti-semitism demonstrates itself in Hungary today?

: Regards,Jeliko.

the full quote from my previous posting is:

">I think it is a common one everyone would know about
>or own.  My impression from the few pages I read was that religous
tension
>was minor.

anti-semitism is not so much a case of religious intolreance (although
that is part of its origin) as a form of racialism. its targets are not
only those who ascribe to judaism as a religion but just as much
secular jews, even people who disclaim any "jewishness" but are of
jewish background.

if you want references, just look up any set of archives on the jewish
laws in hungary in the 30's and 40's for a start."


as anyone who has a rudimentary grasp of the english language and
logic will surely realise, the reference to the laws of the 1930's and
1940's was to the fact that anti-semitism is not a question of hostility
to a different religion, for it applied and applies to people who share
a religion or have none, but are of "jewish background".


does that help?

d.a.

Today I received a mailing from the Pataki/McCaughey campaign office,
which I am passing on to the list.  It is interesting both as a strong
 affirmation
by Senator Pataki of his Hungarian heritage as well as an insight into
American politics.  So far Pataki, much to everyone's surprise, has been
leading Mario Cuomo in the amount of funds raised.

Pataki was also scheduled to be the principal speaker at the New York
celebration of October 23.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
'94
Pataki
McCaughey

Dear Fellow Hungarian-American,

     It was almost four decades ago when I sat with my grandparents in
their living room watching the evening news as the Soviet Union's tanks
squashed the revolution in their native Hungary.  It bought tears to their eyes
as the country of their heritage was brutally ravaged by the Red Army.  I
learned a lot that night from my grandparents, John and Erzse'bet, who came
from Hungary in their youth and bought a farm in Peekskill, New York,
where my mother still lives and runs a vegetable stand.

     I learned how important my family was to me and the culture and
values my grandparents brought with them  I learned what the American
Dream was all about - with hard work and determination anything can be
achieved.  Those dream,s are what brought my grandparents to America and
what has allowed me to achieve all that I have.

     The work ethic that they taught me gave me the opportunity to earn
academic scholarships to Yale University and Columbia Law School.  From
there I went to work for a law firm in New York City, then returned home to
Peekskill to become the youngest Mayor in the city's history.  After serving
as mayor, I ran for the State Assembly and then for the State Senate.  In the
legislature I not only represented constituents from my district, but as a
chairman of The Hungarian Caucus, I represented all Hungarian-Americans
(186,898 of us, according to the 1990 Census) throughout the state.

     My Hungarian roots are very important to me.  As the first Hungarian-
American Governor of any state and the highest elected Hungarian-American
official in America, one of my first trips abroad, as Governor, will be to
Hungary.

     We must continue to fight for the values that our parents and
grandparents taught us.  We must fight to improve our economy and our
educational system.  We must also work to ensure that Hungarians around the
world enjoy the same human rights and cultural freedoms as we do here in
America.  But our next fight is to raise as much money as possible for the
November 8 election.  We need to raise an additional $4 million in less than
4 weeks in order to ensure we get our message across.  As one Hungarian-
American to another, I need your financial support.  I have enclosed a
response card and a prepaid envelope to make it convenient for you to return.
Please send it back today.  The most an individual can contribute is $25,000
and a business up to $5,000, but whatever you are able to give I would greatly
appreciate it.

     Please send back the enclosed response card and envelope with your
most generous contribution today.  Your maximum contribution today will
make the difference.

     Thank you for your support and I look forward to visiting Hungary as
the next Governor of New York.

                                     Sincerely,

                                     Senator George E. Pataki

P.S.  Please send back your response card and envelope today, and help me
become the highest-elected Hungarian-American in United States History.

360 LEXINGTON AVENUE, 7TH FLOOR, NEW YORK, NY  10017
TEL. 212.370.9494  FAX 212.370.0064

Along with the campaign letter from Senator Pataki there was a brief note
from the group "Hungarians for Pataki - Magyarok Patakie'rt", signed by
La'szlo' Ha'mos.  I am passing it on to the list - it is well worth reading.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Friend,

     Enclosed is a letter from George Pataki, candidate for Governor of the
State of New York.  We wish to call your attention to the unique significance
of our fellow Hungarian-American Mr. Pataki's candidacy.  Please do not
consider this letter as just another routine campaign letter from a politician 
-
 of which you undoubtedly receive plenty in the mail these days.

     George Pataki is running for the most important position in our State
as well as one of the most influential positions in the United States.  The
influence and prestige of the Governor of the second largest state in the
Union obviously extend beyond the borders of New York.

     The current effort of our fellow Hungarian-American Mr. Pataki is not
a hopeless undertaking.  On the contrary, according to most public opinion
surveys he is ahead of his widely known and richly financed opponent Mario
Cuomo.

     If elected, George Pataki can do much for Hungarians in America, as
well as those living in the Carpathian Basin.  Our discussions with him reveal
that Mr. Pataki is well aware of his Hungarian origins.  He not only considers
his Hungarian heritage very important, but he is also willing to work hard for
it.

     By helping George Pataki achieve victory, the biggest favour we will
be doing will be to ourselves, Hungarians in general.  We ask you to help him
in any way you can: financially, by volunteering and, last but not least,
 through
your vote.  Please complete the enclosed response card and return it directly
to Pataki Campaign Headquarters in the enclosed, postage paid envelope.

     Thank you in advance for your assistance.

                     Sincerely,

                     La'szlo' Ha'mos

Professor Glen D. Camp would correct the bio on Senator Pataki: "But isn't it
 "Mario"rather than Marino?"  The sentence he refers to, I believe, reads: "He
 has maintained decent relations with Marino though Marino has opposed his bid
 for Governor..."

A more careful reading of the bio shows that it is Ralph Marino, who is a
 leading Republican legislator in Albany, that opposed Pataki's bid.  (Of cours
e
 Mario - of the Cuomo variety - did not shout with joy, either...)

I hope Professor Camp will also put aside his academic bias against Yalies and
 joins the many Hungarian-Americans who wish Senator Pataki sucess at the polls
 in November.


Charles Vamossy

Joe Pannon wrote:
>
>George Lazar writes:
>> according to a poll, recently published by HG (Heti Vilaggazdasag), more
>> than half of the Hungarians don't want to have Jewish neighbors and over 60%
>> don't want their kids marry a Jewish person.
>
>That seems to contradict the actual high rate of intermarriages between
>Jews and Gentiles in Hungary.  Ergo, I think the poll was wrong.

Well, maths does not seem to be one of your strong points.  Assuming that 5 per
cent of the Hungarian population consider themselves Jewish, only another 5 per
cent of the Gentile Hungarians need to be sufficiently relaxed about 'mixed'
marriages for all Jews to end up in a mixed marriage.  This could still leave
90 per cent of the population not wanting to marry a Jew.  Ergo, your statement
above about the accuracy of the poll is a non sequitur.

>In fact, I seem to recall another poll a couple of years ago that
>indicated Hungarians being the most tolerant in East-Central Europe.

Firmly at the top of the bottom league.  Something to be proud of :-(.

George Antony

Charles Vamossy mentined Pataki's campaign address as:
>
> 360 LEXINGTON AVENUE, 7TH FLOOR, NEW YORK, NY  10017
> TEL. 212.370.9494  FAX 212.370.0064

The zip code here does not match the one given by Jeliko, which is:
10164-2338.

What gives?

Joe

Subject: Re.: Antisemitism
From: George Lazar, 
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 01:21:01 +0800
In article > George Lazar,
 writes:

[snip]

 The problem is that Jews lived
>in Hungary since the formation of the State and even a thousand year
wasn't
>long enough to be accepted by the majority of the population.

one small correction. there has been continuous jewish settlement in the
geographic region occupied by modern hunagry since roman times, some eight
or nine centuries earlier than the "honfoglalas".

d.a.

Subject: Re: Re.: Antisemitism
From: Joe Pannon, 
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 01:44:11 -0700
In article > Joe Pannon,
 writes:

>That seems to contradict the actual high rate of intermarriages between
>Jews and Gentiles in Hungary.  Ergo, I think the poll was wrong.
>In fact, I seem to recall another poll a couple of years ago that
>indicated Hungarians being the most tolerant in East-Central Europe.
>
>Joe

that's like like saying that falling off the top of the empire state
building is less dangerous than falling off the top of one of the hancock
towers.

d.a.

According to George Lazar:

In article > you write:
>
>Well, according to a poll, recently published by HG (Heti Vilaggazdasag), more
>than half of the Hungarians don't want to have Jewish neighbors and over 60%
>don't want their kids marry a Jewish person.

    How reliable is that poll? Who sponsored it? For some strange reasons,
polls tend to deliver what sponsors want to hear. That's what I suspect on
that 60% figure. The other part, not wanting to marry a Jew, is easy to
explain without assuming anti-semitism. Most parents want to be perpetuated
through their children. That means in-laws similar to themselves, even to
minor details. Many R.C. parents would also not look favorably to Protestant
or atheist in-laws, so what's new about not wanting their kids to marry
Jews? Jewish parents also prefer Jewish in-laws. Haven't you heard that?

>True, arabs, blacks got even higher percentages. The problem is that Jews live
d
>in Hungary since the formation of the State and even a thousand year wasn't
>long enough to be accepted by the majority of the population.  Could this be
>'translated' to antisemitic tendencies in the general population ?

    Well, are you denying that Jews, too, tended to prefer living among
themselves over the centuries?  Even in the American experience this was a
common occurence with many ethnic groups. How else could all those Chinatowns
spring up everywhere?

    But let's assume Hungarians have some kind of propensity for anti-
semitism, as some of you seem to suggest, though not in so many words.
What would you say the reason is for that? I know the reason they cite for
anti-Gypsy sentiments (disproportionately high crimes committed by them,
not wanting to adapt the hygene and work habits of the majority, etc.),
so I'd like to hear similar reasons cited by anti-semites. I just have a
hard time to belive that Jews would be hated so much for no reason at all.
After all, Hungarians have lived with other ethnic groups from times
immemorial against whom they had no such animosity with no reason other
than "being different".

    On the other hand, I can easily imagine how such constant Hungarian
bashing as that coming from Mr. Bokor could create anti-semitism even where
there was none before. No wonder hardly anybody on the list wants to respond
to his rabid anti-Hungarian posts, except perhaps those who agree with him.

                                                             Matt