||Re: Bela Tarr/ SATAN TANGO (mind)
|| 14 sor
||Where is the 9th installment? (mind)
|| 5 sor
||Is it the aim of most (if not all) Jewish write (mind)
|| 31 sor
||Honor the memory (November 3, 1956) (mind)
|| 285 sor
||Antisemitism and 1956 (mind)
|| 25 sor
||Re: anti-Semitism and 1956 (mind)
|| 11 sor
|| 7 sor
||Worldwide Association of Freedom Fighters (mind)
|| 25 sor
|| 22 sor
||Re: anti-Semitism (mind)
|| 19 sor
|| 13 sor
||Differences between the Rakosi and the Kadar regime (mind)
|| 24 sor
||A little more about Gyor (mind)
|| 22 sor
||Re: anti-Semitism (mind)
|| 5 sor
||Eva, I'm afraid you missed the subject (mind)
|| 117 sor
||Thanks -- to Elek Gabor (mind)
|| 12 sor
||Presser Gabor - "Electromantic" (mind)
|| 21 sor
||Kopatsi the '56-er and Kopatsi the Economist (mind)
|| 4 sor
||Re: relieved (mind)
|| 63 sor
||Oktober 23 (mind)
|| 1 sor
|+ - ||Re: Bela Tarr/ SATAN TANGO (mind)
Satantango screened here in Wellington, New Zealand at a recent
international film festival. One of the finest films i have ever seen. As
perhaps one would expect, a 7 hour film could only draw a limited
audience, and such was the case. There were perhaps only 80-100 people at
the screening I was at, and though the festival organisers knew that
attendence was going to be low, they were good enough to show it in New
Zealand's largest cinema, rather than at a small screen multi-plex. The
reaction of those who saw it was one of stunned amazement. I remember
walking out of the cinema in an dream-like state, being almost unable to
speak. Friends of mine were in a similar condition and we found it took
at least an hour for our brains to speed up to a normal pace. An
incredible film which I dearly hope to have the opportunity to see again
in my lifetime. Can anyone supply any more information on film (how long
did it take to make? What was the reation in Magyaroszag?)
|+ - ||Where is the 9th installment? (mind)
I saw the 10th part after the 8th of Prof. Liptak's series.
Has anybody seen the 9th?
|+ - ||Is it the aim of most (if not all) Jewish write (mind)
turn everything round into an antisemetic discussion? - or am I just being over
dramatic. I cannot see, although I`d admit I do not know a great deal about
what went on during the uprising, what antisemetism has to do with a nation
rising up together in order to aust a dictatic regime. The only bone to pick
with that era is with the many thousands of "kopeny-forgatokal" - the
"avosak" are a prime example. When the crowd were initial fired upon by avos
snipers from the windows of buildings, the Soviet tanks fired back at them to
protect the Hungarian demonstators - allowing many people to hide under their
tanks. My father saw several Russian soldiers get out of their tanks, smash
their rifles/machine guns on the road side and just leave. It was only when th
Soviets brought in "foreign" soldiers and tanks (not hungarian resident) that
we can start blaming the soviets - even here there is some scepticism on my
part because the soldiers were apparently briefed that they were being sent
to the Suez and had to expect to have everything thrown at them; not civilians
with, at best, a few moletoph cocktails.
People of that time do seem to despise the Jews, probably completely
out of proportion to the amount they contributed to the downfall of the
uprising - there were almost certainly a helluva lot more "Hungarians" working
with the soviets.
I take all forms of racism as "optimism" - people who hope that there
is something wrong with particular race so they have a reason to discriminate;
that is why I say that to some degree or other everyone one of us is guilty
of racism - anyone who says he/she isn`t is lying; take your political
persuasion for example!
|+ - ||Honor the memory (November 3, 1956) (mind)
NOTE: This is the 11th segment of a memoir of the Hungarian Revolution, which
consists of 15 such daily segments. My goal is to pay tribute to the memories
of two of the martyrs of 1956: Istvan Angyal and Janos Danner. If at the end
of this series, you would like me to send you the complete text (350,000
bits,) please let me know. I will also be happy to place this material into
any archive, if one so desies it.
I do apologize about the spelling of Hungarian words: I had to make a
choice in this respect and selected to correctly show all the Hungarian
accent marks in the hard printed copies. As a consequence, it seems that the
quality of the electronically transmitted text suffered and the accented
vowels arrive deleted on and some are converted on .
I hope that in spite of that, the manuscript is legible.
If you find any factual errors (names, dates, etc.) in this
manuscript, please drop me a note ) directly or if you
make comments/corrections on any electronic forum, please send me a personal
copy, so that I might benefit from your advice.
Best regards: Be'la Lipta'k
"Csak akkor szu"lettek nagy dolgok,
Ha ba'trak voltak, akik mertek
S ha sza'zszor tudtak ba'trak lenni,
Sza'zszor ba'trak e's viharvertek."
(Great deeds can born,
If brave mothers dare to dare
And only if a hundred times
they endure, holdout, and persevere.)
At the Svar road-block, the leader of the freedom fighters writes down our
license number, checks how many people are on our truck and disappears. A few
minutes later, we are surrounded by armed students. Gyurka stops the motor, I
get out to see what is going on. The reporter from Time is scribbling
furiously in his note book. I couldn't even open my mouth, when one of the
students points at my boots: New officers boots! An other, pointing at my
rubberized black raincoat: No student has one of these! I feel hostility
and suspicion in the air, but do not understand the reason for it. After all,
I was dressed the same way, when we stopped here on our way to Wienna. That
was only a few hours ago.
Now I see a car racing towards us. The car is still moving when the
mustached head of the Revolutionary Council jumps out. He is in a frenzy,
screaming at the top of his lungs, as he is approaching our truck: You have
smuggled the AVH murderers out of the country! You are AVH collaborators! You
will hang for this! It is only at this point, that we realize what the
problem is. We start searching our memories to figure out when have we last
seen the two policeman? We don't even remember if they came with us to
Austria, or not? All we know is that they disappeared.
The students let the Time reporter go and throw the two of us into the
local jail. They tell us, that a court of summary jurisdiction will decide
our fate in the morning. It is dark outside, it is nearing midnight. I am
walking up and down in the 10 by ten feet cell, while Gyurka, this big bear
of a man, is peacefully snoring on the floor. Sleep never hurt anyone, sleep
whenever you can! - is one of his guiding principles.
I walk up and down most of the night. I listen to the noises of the
night: dogs barking, cars arriving or leaving, the inaudible murmur of our
guards talking. I can see the first blush of dawn, when I hear the phone
I am Zoltan Kiss, member of the National Guard - says a respectful and
resonant voice and after a pause: Yes Sir, Mr. Szigethy, they are here. ...
Yes, Mr. Szigethy, they also said something about blood, but my commander
thinks that they smuggled AVH officers to Austria. ... No, Mr. Szigethy ...
Yes, Mr. Szigethy ... I will right away Sir! After that I hear footsteps,
a door closes and by the time I hear the next telephone ring, I also hear
footsteps coming toward our cell.
As the key turns in the lock, Gyurka wakes up. His first move, as
always, is to search for his cigarettes. The guards return our papers and
add: Hurry up, so that the ice will not melt in the blood containers! Your
lunatic boss should have thought of that sooner! - Gyurka grumbles. Yes
Sir! -answers the baby-faced student.
It is mid-morning on this Saturday, the 3rd of November, when we stop
at the City Hall in Gy r. The chaos is even worst than yesterday. Two radios,
Kossuth and Free Europe are broadcasting simultaneously, while two dozen
people are also talking. We learn, that while the Russians have formally
agreed to leave Hungary, there are reports, that new troops are entering the
country. Right now, the Russian ambassador, Andropov, is meeting with Imre
Nagy, to discuss the details of the withdrawal, Kruschev is visiting Marshal
Tito of Yugoslavia, while the Communist Party chief Janos Kadar, has
disappeared. Nobody knows where he is.
Szigethy takes us into his inner office, where his first question is:
Have you seen troops? No, there are no Russians in that region - I reply
naively. I mean western troops, Americans, Austrians, anybody! - he says,
almost yelling. No, only boy scouts, nuns and reporters - I reply.
Szigethy's neck turns purple, his eyes flash with outrage: Those bastards,
those heartless, spineless, damn bastards! - he hisses through his gnashing
teeth, then jumps up and without an other word, leaves us. (In a few days,
Szigethy was captured by the Russians and committed suicide in jail.)
On the way back, we take the road through Komarom and on this road,
there are no Russian roadblocks. They are either concentrating on the main
traffic arteries or they are truly in the process of leaving. - says Gyurka.
It is lunch time when we arrive at the hospital. They are very glad to see
us. We have arrived at the last minute. They offer us lunch, which Gyurka
accepts, but I don't: I stuffed myself with Austrian chocolates. Therefore,
while Gyurka is eating, I grab some chocolates and oranges and visit the
The rooms are overflowing, the less seriously wounded are out in the
corridors. Those who are conscious, gladly accept the chocolate bars, but
some of them don't know what to do with the oranges. We have not seen oranges
since the Soviets occupied Hungary. On one bed, a person with a head-wound
calls out in clear American-English: An orange please. He turns out to be
the very reporter, whom I gave a tour of the university last week, and who
told me: If it bleeds, it leads. Should it be a blood-orange? - I ask
with my sick sense of humor, but fortunately he does understand Hungarian.
A young man with a leg wound is sitting on the side of his bed. When I
offer him a chocolate bar, he does not take it. Don't you like sweets? - I
ask. Its not that. Its, that you don't want to give me any: I served in the
green AVH. (To the best of my knowledge, the blue AVH officers were
volunteers who made up the political secret police, while the green ones
were drafted, and served as border guards.) I was not prepared for this.
Neither did I expect the sorrowful, yet accusing expression in his simple,
peasant eyes. I took the largest chocolate bar and put it on his lap. The
farmer boy did not return it.
Before going back to the university, we visited Gyurka's family. Gyurka
slept of the floor of the jail, I have not washed since collecting the arms
at AVH headquarters, we are both dirty and could use a bath. When we get
there, the family surrounds us, they want to know everything. Gyurka's
beautiful sister, the divorced wife of Igor Smk, brings us some rum. I have
not slept for two days, so the rum knocks me out. They notice, that I am
about to fall off my chair and suggest that I take a nap.
Maria takes me to the bedroom, turns away while I undress and slip in,
under the cover. It seems, that I have not been in a real bed, under clean
bedding for ages. Maria sits down on the side of the bed. She is the
loveliest, the most alluring women I have ever seen. She notices my
stalk-eyed, devouring expression and responds with a mischievous wink. Then
she leans forward. Its an otherworldly sight, I can not speak, can not even
stutter. She leans even further. I close my eyes. I feel a soft caressing, a
kiss on my forehead, light as air, then she tucks me in, and while she
quietly scuttles out, I sink into a deep sleep.
It is around 6 PM when I get back to the university. Our National Guard
division is at full alert. Our ranks have swollen by the cadets of the Pet fi
and Zrinyi military academies. There must be 3-5,000, armed students in our
buildings. I see the old faces, the ones I have not seen since our initial
march. Here is Gyuri Egry (Csampi the Men ), here is Gyuszi Perr with his
bride and his bride, the blond little athlete, Marika. Here is Laci Zsindely,
Attila Lipcsey, they all came back, they are all armed.
In the MEFESZ office, next to Pista Marian, there is a new face. His
name is General Gvrginyi. He was sent by the commander of the Hungarian
National Guard, General Bila Kiraly. Gvrginyi looks a bit lost, we don't
understand why we need him, we are a bit suspicious of his presence. Pista
asks the same questions, which Attila Szigethy asked me in Gy r: Did you see
western troops at the border? Were the Russian tanks the same models which
you have seen on the street corners of the city? Did the Russian soldiers
look dirty or fresh? I don't like these questions. I know what he is driving
at and I can not say anything reassuring. When I tell them, that we have just
unloaded a truckload of candy and citrus fruit in the lecture hall KA-51,
where the AVH men are kept, Pista remarks: That will do a lot of good
against the tanks!
At around 8 PM, the radio broadcasts a proclamation by Cardinal
Jszsef Mindszenthy: We are neutral, we have given no cause for the Soviet
Empire to wage war on us. But, has it not occurred to the Soviet leaders,
that they will gain more of our respect, if they do not start a bloodbath and
if they don't enslave us? While he is right, I don't like the tone of his
speech. I feel it is too gloomy. I do not understand, why this great
Cardinal, this saint of a man, is talking in such pessimistic and skeptical
way to the Soviet leaders. After all, the Soviets are about to sign the final
document of their withdrawal? So why is the gloom?
A few minutes later, General Kiraly calls. He wants a contingent of
100 students from us. We agree that they will report to him, first think
tomorrow, but the call bothers me. Why does the Commander of the National
Guard need students, as guards? What is the big hurry? Don't we have tank
battalions, don't we have an Air Force, are we, the students at this
university, the only ones he can trust? While General Kiraly is on the line,
we ask him about the talks. He sounds, or tries to sound reassuring: Our
Minister of Defense, General Pal Maliter, has just left, to sign the final
document of departure for all the Soviet military forces from Hungary. All
the details have been agreed to, so this will only be a signing ceremony at
the Russian military headquarters in Tvkvl.
What he said, reassures us a bit, but it also makes me very nervous.
Why does the Minister of Defense go to Tvkvl? What will happen, if the leader
of the Hungarian military is needed, in the meantime? Why don't we send a
politician? Why is this meeting not at daylight, and why in a Russian
military barrack? Do such ceremonies not belong in the Parliament, in front
of the cameras of the international press? We have a lot of questions, a lot
of doubt, but we also know, that General Maliter is a brave and competent
leader, he know what he is doing, it is not for us to question.
Just like in Gy r, now in the MEFESZ office too, all radio stations are
on simulta neously. We are listening to Radio Budapest, Free Europe, BBC,
Voice of America, and the short wave stations, which are reporting some troop
movements in Eastern Hungary. The components of the news do not add up to a
logical overall picture: The United Nations has delayed the Security Council
meeting on Hungary... The Soviet citizen and KGB agent representative of
Hungary, in spite of his dismissal, is still recognized by the United Nations
as Hungary's representative... The American elections are next Tuesday,
President Eisenhower is on the campaign trail... The American Secretary of
State, John Foster Dulles has been hospitalized... The fighting at the Suez
Canal has intensified...
Each news item is a thud and together they combine into the pit-a-pat
of hail-stones. Each thud is a hammer-stroke, driving yet an other nail into
the coffin of Hungarian Freedom. It is maddening, it is infuriating to
listen, yet I can not tear myself away. I still hope for that one sentence,
which would announce the arrival of some UN observers in Budapest or the
formal recognition of Hungary's neutrality.
Instead, at around 11 PM, the Radio announces that contact has been
lost with our Minister of Defense, General Pal Maliter. There is deadly
silence in the MEFESZ office. We can not get our breath. Our eyes stare into
nothingness, fists are clenched, lips quivering, we all know that the
beginning of the end has arrived. From midnight on, every ten minutes or so,
we hear the same announcement: General Maliter is requested to call
immediately the Prime Minister's office.
This was the worst night of my life. Nobody slept. We were all dazed
and overcome by this sense of total abandonment. At around 2 AM, the guards
from the KA-51 lecture hall reported, that their AVH prisoners want to go
home. Let them waved Pista lethargically. It was around 3 AM when Pista
called a meeting:
It seems that General Maliter has been captured by the Russians. 26
tank battalions, 2500 tanks, 1000 other vehicles have entered Hungary. This
is the largest Soviet tank concentration since Hitler's defeat at Kursk. Our
airports are surrounded. The attach against the Capital can start any minute.
You know all the details of our defense plan. If you don't feel sorry for
your mothers, implement it. Remember: you can only die, you can not win! I am
leaving for a last meeting with General Kiraly. Those, who decide to go home,
should leave right away, while the bridges are still open. Those who decide
to fight, will have plenty of time, because the Russians are coming from the
east, so Pest will be first and the attack on Buda will come later.
There is stunned silence in the room. We are all thinking the same
thing: Pista is not staying with us!? He is not going to lead our defense?
Who will take his place? - We are all pondering these questions, but nobody
speaks them out aloud. There are no comments, no debate, just silence,
desperate and maddening silence, the type of horrifying silence which
precedes the worst act, which a human being is capable of. As my dazed mind
is beginning to clear, as I finally look around, Pista is gone. (Colonel
Marian did not take part in the defense of Buda. Still, after the Revolution,
he was sentenced to life imprisonment, of which he served over 6 years and
was pardoned in 1963.)
A few minutes later, I see General Gvrginyi, as he is slowly walking
out the main entrance. He is embarrassed, he does not know what to do with
his left hand, his briefcase is in his right. He says nothing, he does not
look anybody in the eye. He just walks out, like if this was a movie or
something and the show was over. The skunk! - I say to Gyurka, who is
standing next to me, but I hear no reply. I turn to Gyurka and his eyes too,
are staring at the floor. He can not, he dares not look me in the eye, and
this idol of mine, this brave and bright bear of a man, just mumbles to
nobody in particular: I am going home too! (That was the last time I have
seen Gyurka. In 1995 I did meet a young man with the last name: Vereczkey,
but he was no relative.)
It is around 3:30 AM on this dark, ugly Sunday, the 4th of November.
The 100 volunteers, who will guard General Kiraly are lining up in front of
the library. The cadets of the Zrinyi and Pet fi military academies and the
tank crews from Pilisvvrvsvar are packing up and walking out. Their equipment
stays. Laszls Bsnis, an assistant professor of metallurgy is leading the
first group of defenders, who will take up positions on Msricz square. The
night is still dark. And now, now I hear the thunder of the guns from Pest.
The roar of cannons is coming from the area of the Kilian Barracks, the
Corvin and \ll i Street region. Pista Angyal's coffee kept our fighters
awake! - I say to no one in particular.
At around 5 AM, I hear the voice of Imre Nagy on the Budapest Radio:
This is Imre Nagy speaking, the Chairman of the Council of Ministers of
Hungary. Today at dawn, Soviet troops attacked our capital, with the obvious
objective to overthrow the lawful and democratic government. Our troops are
fighting; the government is at it's station. I inform the world and my nation
of these events. His announcement is followed by the National Anthem. After
that, they broadcast the message of the Hungarian Writers Union. They speak
to all intellectuals of the world. They beg for military help, they beg for
UN observers, they repeat the message in four languages.
These announcements are repeated in different languages, interrupted
only by our two National Anthems, the Himnusz and the Szszat and by Kodaly's
choral work, having the refrain: Don't hurt the Magyars! I can not stand
it. I run out of the MEFESZ office. I'm overpowered by a crying-fit and like
a whipped dog, I retreat into the corner of a semi-dark corridor. I want to
throw up. I lost my interest in life. I am burying my dreams, I am burying my
fate in humanity, I am burying the person who I used to be, I am burying
Like a zombie, for hours I just set there. The noise, the tramping of
footsteps, slowly subsided. Only one radio remained on, in a nearby office.
It keeps repeating the Hungarian Writer's appeal to the world: Help
Hungary!, Help Hungary! it cries into the ether. My throat is dry, my
shoulder is hurting from the pull of the sub-machine-gun, tears are streaming
from my eyes, and I repeat for the millionth time: Please God, don't let it
be! Don't let them betray us! Please make them help!
My only contact with life is this radio. While it is on, there is still
hope. We still have a voice, a radio. As long as Radio Budapest is on the
air, there still is a purpose. Now, the radio speaks in Russian. It is
begging the Russian soldiers not to shoot! My crying face twists into a
grimace: Not to shoot? - I mumble, as the windows of the corridor vibrate
from the detonations.
Now, suddenly, something changes. I don't know what, but something is
different. Something is wrong, dreadfully wrong. Yes, it is the National
Anthem! I don't hear the National Anthem! I jump up. My legs went to sleep, I
almost fall, but I am running anyway. I reach the office, where the radio is.
I am shaking the receiver. It must be the battery. -I mumble, but then,
over the background noise, I begin to hear the gun-fire. The fight is on for
the radio! Radio Budapest is off the air. This is the last thing that I
|+ - ||Antisemitism and 1956 (mind)
Andy Kozma writes:
>You are right there werent any progroms or large scale executions,only small
>scale on Avo people.But as I mentioned it was not the people,but the Soviet
>wich prevented this.If the revolution would have continued we do not know
>what would have happened since the pole are allways looking for scapegoats.
Sure, "we do not know what would have happened," but it is unlikely that
there would have been an anti-Jewish bloodbath or mass lynchings of secret
police officials. There were very few such cases--one, the infamous one in
front of the party headquarters, was just described by Bela Liptak. By
November 3 things quieted down considerably and we, students, were planning
to start cleaning up the rubble on the streets the next morning. Everything
was peaceful and optimistic. By the way, Peter Hidas is no longer a student.
He is a historian whose main field is the 1956 revolution. So, he ought to
know quite a bit about the topic.
P.S. One more thing. To say that only the presence of the Soviet troops
prevented antisemitic outbursts or lynching of communist officials is
outright falsification of history. What you are saying is simply not true.
Moreover, it is deeply offensive to us, participants and to Hungarians in
|+ - ||Re: anti-Semitism and 1956 (mind)
Any idea why this document is classified as confidential?
I mean I don't see any sensitive information in it that might hurt
somebody. Quite the contrary.
The document was classified "confidential" in 1956. It is accesible to anyone
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
|+ - ||anti-Semitism (mind)
Is it the aim of most (if not all) Jewish writers/intellectuals to
turn everything round into an antisemetic discussion? - or am I just being over
You are not being over dramati but you are making anti-Semitic statements.
|+ - ||Worldwide Association of Freedom Fighters (mind)
To whom it may concern,
I just finished reading Sandor Kopacsi's book In the Name of the Working
Class. It mentions that there is an organization called the Worldwide
Association of Freedom Fighters.
I am a first generation American. My father, Istvan Harsfalvay, was also
a Freedom Fighter in 1956, and now lives in America.
Please send me any information about this organization, such as the way
to get in touch with the membership chairman, or other officers.
Do they have meetings, get-together's, socials or what?
Thank-you in advance.(Kossenem)
Texas Education Agency
1701 North Congress Ave.
Austin Tx. 78701
|+ - ||relieved (mind)
O.K.According to Joe Pannon in the US,he heard it from a Guru that this way
he can call me an idiot.That is fine with me.You allways look at the sorce
and this way you can come to conclusion.I appreciate this,and I am at the
same time proud of it.
On the other hand what this US citisen writes proves that he does not know
too much about life in Hungary when the rakosi regime was in power.Just in
passingI would like to mention that my Parents my Brother and myself where
deported again since we were at that time factory owners and selected as
No I was not relieved about the Soviet invasion,and I left Hungary
regardless who was in power as you could see and yes I left before november.
Unfortunatley this gentleman obviousley un willingley unferline my
feelings,when he writes that the revolutioneries in 56 felt the same way as
the conquerors after the war.
No we will never forget the Holocaust and the peole who tooke part in it.
And this is the main reason if it is just a rumor either we stand up against
it here in Canada and in the US.
Maybe mr Faracart cna use this language becasuse he is balck,and this way he
tries to find again a race wich was again most of the time on the side of
the blacs.And they know it also.
Mr Csurka is a horse with a different color.
|+ - ||Re: anti-Semitism (mind)
Peter I. Hidas wrote:
>Is it the aim of most (if not all) Jewish writers/intellectuals to
>turn everything round into an antisemetic discussion? - or am I just being ove
>You are not being over dramati but you are making anti-Semitic statements.
Why and how under the sky can this statement be called anti-Semitic?
Is critisizing a Jew the definition of anti-Semitism? Jews are no better
than anyone else, and can justly be critisized.
Are you saying that a Jew cannot be wrong? It's unfortunate when one among
"God's chosen people" takes to thinking he is among "God's only people" or
"God's best people".
|+ - ||Balkans (mind)
Hi. I'm new on the Internet and not sure how to go about this. I am a
newspaper columnist for the Honolulu Advertiser and the San Francisco
Examiner. I am looking for a "good news" story and am hoping that perhaps
you might be able to tell me who to contact for information. Because we
have heard so much tragic news from the Balkans, I would like to write,
instead, about something uplifting and encouraging from that area--perhaps
an example of cooperation or kindness between Croats and Serbs, or between
Muslims and Serbs. Or maybe a story about a Muslim and Serb falling in love
and moving away to where they can live in peace. Or maybe a story about the
"enemy" helping out some refugees from the opposing side. Or maybe a kind
soldier saving an "enemy" girl from being raped. Do you know of any such
stories? Do you know anyone else who might? Please let me know. Thanks.
Evelyn Cook, Hawaii, USA. email:
|+ - ||Differences between the Rakosi and the Kadar regime (mind)
Joe Pannon writes:
>Oh, you don't get an argument from me about that! However, I think we
>are talking about two different animals when comapring the '50s and the
>late Kadar regime. I think the latter's brainwashing was far more
>insiduous than the former and that's why the latter was so much more
I agree with that. Also, it was of a very long duration as opposed to the
period between, let's say, between 1948 and 1956. Although it seemed like
ages, the Rakosi period in our history was really very short. It was a
brutal, Stalinist, terror-ridden, totalitarian regime and therefore its
message (if there was such) didn't penetrate very deeply into the
consciousness of the population. The Kadar regime, on the other hand,
especially after the mid-1960s, used entirely different tactics and these
milder methods (called "puha diktatura" in Hungary; i.e., soft dictatorship)
proved to be much more effective. Whole generations grew up in this regime
and it would be surprising if their thinking didn't reflect all that.
Unfortunately, the political and economic surroundings especially influenced
people's attitude toward individual achievement, self-reliance, and
initiative. They have become passive always waiting for the state to solve
their problems. This is what I find most disturbing.
|+ - ||A little more about Gyor (mind)
Maybe I missed something but it is not clear to me when Bela Liptak and his
friend Gyurka went Gyor--if it was November 1 I might have been there also at
the same time. The fellows I went with went to see Attila Szigethy, while a
friend and I were escorted into the radio station where they conducted an
interview with us about the situation in Budapest. We reported that all was
quite but we also mentioned the atrocities committed at the party
headquarters the day before.
On the way back there was a roadblock at some army barracks. It was dark and
I have no idea where we were exactly, although I do remember the army
barracks quite well. Sounds of bullets sent us crawling behind the little
guardhouse at the gate--next to me was lying a Danish woman reporter with
whom I tried to communicate in not so great English--telling her not to stick
out her head and try to get up every two minutes because otherwise she may
not be with us for long.
Next day the Revolutionary Council sent us to Pecs to talk to the students
and the miners there. We tried to convince the miners to return to work now
that Imre Nagy had a coalition government. So, the night of November 2 was
heaven: a bath and dinner at home in a clean bed.
|+ - ||Re: anti-Semitism (mind)
The problem is why an intellectual is wrong or mistaken and why a writer is
incorrect re facts or opinion. Are they wrong for intellectual reasons or
because their mother was Jewish? I have no objection to any attack or criticism
of any view but why are you attacking the messenger rather than the message?
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
|+ - ||Eva, I'm afraid you missed the subject (mind)
(Eva, I'm afraid you missed the subject)
[Dear Innocent Bystander, please accept my apologies. My only excuse
is that I tried to squeeze in some additional information and some potentially
interesting views into this posting. Relax, nothing about Mr. Whatshisname.
And also relax, I'm not going to be around for most of November... :-) ]
thanks for quoting again the article from Hirmondo, and adding that
the abbreviated news was based on Magyar Hirlap. It may well be a respected
daily, however it is well known that they have an ax to grind w.r.t. Mr.
Whatshisname. My point was that in such cases it is an extremely good idea
to cross-check the information. As you yourself pointed out other times,
Hungarian media occasionally handle the facts quite liberally.
I am sorry about the sarcasm on your higher faculties; I know it was
cruel. I actually deleted it twice, while writing the article, but finally
decided to reinstate it. It has nothing to do with my inferiority complex,
I do not have any. The reason is very simple: I strongly believe that
to be an intellectual is primarily an *obligation*, a *service* (derived
from *to serve*), and the higher I am, the more I am responsible of what am
I saying and how. Responsible for clarity of thinking, to avoid bias, etc.
because other people might listen to and rely upon what I am saying.
Again, I still would not have written it that way, had you not had a
track record of rushed-into judgements that seem to be politically rather
than intellectually motivated. (For instance the latest shot from the hip
"I don't know what AMOSZ is but sure as hell they are bad guys", to quote the
*substance* of your words.) Now in my mind it is your God-given right to be
political. It is also your right to refer to your profession, which of course
implies that your words on a particular subject should weigh more heavily.
And of course, ideally they should: that's why us, outsiders contribute to the
existence and work of historians, sociologists or rocket scientists, for that
matter. What is no-no for me is to dance to and from between the two roles,
even in the subtlest sense. When there is even the remote appearance that
you put on your historian hat you have to be able to drop *any* of your
political motivation and feelings. Just as I expect the judge to forget all
his biases, personal experiences, etc. when he is sitting on the bench.
It is awfully hard -- but that is one of the prices you have to pay for
being an intellectual. The benefits -- social standing, respect, etc.
-- are not for free.
I don't comment on your recent quotes on the subject because I am
sick and tired of it (of the subject). Admittedly, I share the responsibility
for blowing it out of proportion. My original goal was to nail down a way of
thinking with which I pretty much disagree. Apologies.
However, I would like to comment on the last two paragraphs.
>...I would like to point out that just because there was no "armed rebel-
>lion" on October 22 that doesn't mean that Mr. Csurka is off the hook...
Repetitio est mater studiorum, dear Eva. To whom and why do you
want to point this out? To those who did *not* read my article? I guess
it would have been fair if you added to your remark that "as Tamas pointed
out, too". Let me quote from *my* article:
>Erratic as he is, at some point he might even consider an armed uprising...
and independent of this, but with a similar tenor
>...I hope he will never get to power.
Of course quoting this would have prevented you from ending your
article on this note:
>If Tamas Toth feels so terribly neutral about Mr. Csurka, I wonder why he
>spends 140 some lines on this subject. I guess, simply for historical
Guess what, Eva: yes and no. Historical accuracy is of course
often quite important, but in this specific case it was the 20th at best on
my priority list (in other words: I couldn't care less). However, I have
some news for you.
What you seemed to have missed is the *subject*.
The subject was *you*, Eva, to be more specific, some thinking
patterns of yours which I think are not correct. (I am not their ultimate
judge, I am writing my own opinion.) Mr. WHatshisname and the ongoing
argument was just the *tool*, the apropos, not the real *subject*.
I could have chosen some other tool as well. For instance this very
last paragraph of yours, quoted above, which is a not-so-subtle insinuation.
Just throw some mud, eventually it will stick ("I discovered another crypto-
fascist-antisemite!!!"). Of course everybody is free to choose his/her own
weapons. As far as I am concerned, this type is not my favorite one.
I honestly don't care what labels you stick on me. I am, who I am,
and I am responsible for my own conscience. (Maybe the plebeian Calvinism
in my blood and genes? Not the religion, the moral.) I am not a politician.
I do not write articles for momentary political gain. By the way, I was never
a member of any political party and never will be. (My favorite maxim is
that even if I founded a strictly one-man party of my own, next day I would
desert it.) Also, I mean what I wrote, both here and on FORUM. For instance
that I find a dialogue with the other side a *sine qua non*, and I wouldn't
denigrate myself to write down things like this with the intent of carrying
the moment or get some brownie points or infiltrate and steal trust.
However, I happen to believe that much of the current (self-
proclaimed) liberal thinking is intellectually bankrupt. I may be wrong, but
that's how I feel. Also, I feel that this spells big trouble, not only for
them, but for *me* on the other side as well. BTW I do not base this opinion
solely on arguments on HIX. In all my adult life I was talking and I keep
continuously talking to more liberals than you could shake a stick at.
Actually, I even got a revolutionary idea: I'm not only talking to them,
I am *listening* as well. With my ears fully open. Also,
I don't mean to say that most of the *other side* is not rotten. There is a
reason, why I am *temporarily*, repeat, VERY TEMPORARILY *slightly*, repeat
SLIGHTLY more tolerant with them: up to now they had less chance to learn to
articulate (both in the mental sense and in their wording) their views.
Academia, media, etc. was and still is largely (and often violently) dominated
by liberals. Dozens of specific examples are at hand.
Finally, this may surprise you, but quite a few of the very same
(mostly Jewish) intellectuals, who were dissidents in the late 70s, early 80s
in Hungary, and later became instrumental in organizing the precursors and
and the final SZDSZ are openly or quietly turning against it and denouncing
it. As a matter of fact, some of their current criticism is remarkably
similar to criticisms from the right. (Amazingly, in tiny bits even with
those of Mr. Whatshisname -- of course without the antisemitic flame.)
Why am I saying this? You often stated that SZDSZ is closest to you in the
Hungarian political spectrum. Now if this is based on a working knowledge
of what SZDSZ stands for, it is fine. But if it is motivated primarily by
emotions (for instance: antisemites hate them, I hate antisemites, therefore
I am pro-SZDSZ), than you may have missed the latest train ("lemaradt egy
Motto: The right to free speech does by no means imply a right to be taken
seriously. Credibility (including my own) has to be earned with hard work
and intellectual consistency over a long time.
|+ - ||Thanks -- to Elek Gabor (mind)
(Thanks -- to Elek Gabor)
Dear Gabor (or Elek?),
thanks for your article. It is just as quiet and balanced as your
earlier one on Mr. Whatshisname's career. Even if I disagree on some
*minor* points, it wouldn't make sense to argue.
Also, I feel somewhat honored (no irony here!) because you rarely
write on HUNGARY. In my view it is a pity. Anyway, thanks again and
|+ - ||Presser Gabor - "Electromantic" (mind)
I've posted this message a while back but wasn't able to get any definite
answer so I'm trying again.
I would very much like to get a copy of Presser Gabor's album
"Electromantic" but no record store around here (I'm in the US) has ever
even heard about him.
Can anyone point me to where I could get this album? Or, does anyone know
how to get in touch with the Hungarian record company? I assume that
they have, at some point, released this album and might still have some
copies or know where to get them.
Thanks in advance,
Nick Savoiu /
<A HREF="http://www.mordor.com/nick">My homepage</A>
|+ - ||Kopatsi the '56-er and Kopatsi the Economist (mind)
Does anybody know if they are the same person or two different ones?
|+ - ||Re: relieved (mind)
>O.K.According to Joe Pannon in the US,he heard it from a Guru that this way
>he can call me an idiot.That is fine with me.You allways look at the sorce
>and this way you can come to conclusion.I appreciate this,and I am at the
>same time proud of it.
Well, good for you, Andy. I just thought I pass on the good advice to
save you some embarrassment. The guy, who mentioned it used to be a
rather frequent contributor here, but I think he retreated to read-only
mode after blodying his nose a few times. ;-)
>On the other hand what this US citisen writes proves that he does not know
>too much about life in Hungary when the rakosi regime was in power.Just in
>passingI would like to mention that my Parents my Brother and myself where
>deported again since we were at that time factory owners and selected as
Which US citizen are you talking about, Andy? If it's me, would it
surprise you that you were not telling me anything shocking with it?
>No I was not relieved about the Soviet invasion,and I left Hungary
>regardless who was in power as you could see and yes I left before november.
So you believe that the Soviet intervention was responsible for
preventing pogroms taking place in 56, yet you were not relieved by
their invasion. What's wrong with this picture?
>Unfortunatley this gentleman obviousley un willingley unferline my
>feelings,when he writes that the revolutioneries in 56 felt the same way as
>the conquerors after the war.
I'm afraid you've lost me here. I haven't the faintest what the hell
you're talking about.
>No we will never forget the Holocaust and the peole who tooke part in it.
And rightly so. It's just getting counterproductive if you are trying
to drag it into every conversation pointing accusatory fingers at those,
who had nothing to do with that tragedy.
>And this is the main reason if it is just a rumor either we stand up against
>it here in Canada and in the US.
You've lost me again. What rumor are you talking about?
>Maybe mr Faracart cna use this language becasuse he is balck,and this way he
>tries to find again a race wich was again most of the time on the side of
>the blacs.And they know it also.
Faracart? At least you should take the trouble to find out his name
before you talk about him so knowingly. I'm not saying I would always
spell his name right, but Faracart? I could only guess whom you're
talking about from the context. And just what is THAT language he can
use because he is black? Was anybody using that language here? By all
means, quote from it, so we all become aware.
>Mr Csurka is a horse with a different color.
Yes, and you and P-O deliver plenty of material for him.
BTW, do you know why I asked if you left Hungary before Nov. 4?
|+ - ||Oktober 23 (mind)
Mi volt 23-an ? How many people at Csurka rally?