In article >,
   Joe Szalai > wrote:
>At 06:28 PM 4/28/96 -0700, Eva Balogh, responding to Janos Zsargo, wrote:
>
>>I am sure you are not going to like what I am saying here but
>>these measures, which were introduced almost a whole year after the MSZP won
>>the elections, were terribly overdue. The former, Antall government should
>>have introduced the austerity measures as they were told time and time again
>>by the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund.
>
>"...they were told time and time again..." ?????
>
>My Hungarian history is failing me once again.  I wonder if Eva Balogh could
>tell us what year the World Bank and the IMF were elected to govern hungary.
>And what percentage of the vote did they get?


Withering sarcasm aside, any country that wishes to be taken seriously as a
trading partner with other nations has to take notice of the opinions of
global financial institutions.  Hungary has a worse debt problem than Mexico,
but its geographic placement and resources mean it is ready for the biggest
come-back in history.  'Build it, and they will come'.

Modern economies depend on the opinion of other countries and their financial
institutions.  My home loan interest payments go down if Japan thinks the UK
is a safe investment, so we in the UK will employ fiscal strategies that we
hope the Japanese will approve of.  Does that mean we are 'governed' by the
Japanese?  It just means that there are a lot of shops in the street, and we
make efforts to make our shopfront one of the most attractive.

....or you can fight with the WB and IMF for a few years and frighten off any
new investment in your country.  We did that for years and years in the
Seventies.  Not to be recommended, but you might know better!



Shopfront Polisher,
Budapest Lover

Dear Colleagues,

The Hungarian Lobby(HL) has been quite effective this week:

1) Peter Orban had a letter published in European dealing with the Hungarians
in Romania. If HL had a medal, Peter should probably get it: He has already
published a letter on Vojvodina's Hungarians in the New York Times and,
although he is a student of limited means, he has offered to contribute $500
to the anniversay ad in the NY Times. What Peter proves is that even a single
person can make a difference. All it takes is action!

2) The other good news is: I have just learned that the New York Times will
publish (tomorrow) our letter, which is asking the international media to
focus its attention on the Danube lawsuit in the Hague. Thanks to all of you
who sent letters. The number of your letters was the cause that the Times
decided to devote space to this issue.

3) The Holocaust Museum advised that they will welcome and display the
documentation on Pannonhalma's role in saving Hungarian children of Jewish
origin.

Please find attached four letters, which we are e-mailing, fax-ing and
collecting signatures for and after that, please find attached a summary of
our list of actions in progress.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
LETTER #1
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Reply to:______________________________________________________
Date:_________________________________________________________


The Honorable Bill Archer, Chairman
Committee on Ways and Means
1102 Longworth House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515
(Fax: 202-225-4381)

Dear Mr. Chairman,

I am a member of the Hungarian Lobby of the United States which has been
formed to provide a voice for the 1.58 million Hungarian-American voters.

I am writing in connection with the House bill, H.R. 3161, introduced by
Congressman Phil Crane of Illinois and Congressman Tom Lantos of California.
This bill would eliminate the yearly renewal of Romania's MFN status by
making that status permanent and unconditional. I strongly object to this
recommendation and strongly support Senator Dole's position, who said, that
curbing press freedoms, condoning extremist nationalism, refusing to return
church properties and denying cultural
autonomy to the Hungarian national community is not the way to gain permanent
MFN status.

I would like to note that the very purpose of the Trade Act of 1974 (the
Jackson-Vanik Ammendment, which established MFN) was:  To assume the
continued dedication of the United States to fundamental human rights..  It
is that very purpose that would be compromised by the H.H. #3161 bill, by
terminating
the most important vehicle the United States has for the defense of human
rights. At a time when our European allies are setting up effective
mechanisms to protect human rights, the United States, the leader of the free
world, which originated the fight for human rights, should not give such a
sad example of unprincipled retreat on this front.

I would respectfully remind you Mr. Chairman, that while some states, such as
China can afford to disregard the human rights concerns of the United States,
Romania can not. I would also like to remind you that the beneficiary of the
Crane-Lantos bill would not be the Romanian people, as they already enjoy the
benefits of MFN. The only beneficiary would be Ion Iliescu who, being a
former Communist, who is running against a reform movement in this fall's
election, and would use the Crane-Lantos bill as an American endorsement of
his presidency.Therefore I respectfully ask you to support Senator Dole's
position and
postpone the vote on Romanian MFN until after the elections in Romania.

Respectfully yours,
Your name, address, title or if this letter is signed by many, the list of
signatures collected at church or other events.
NAME                                  ADDRESS
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

cc: Congressman Philip M. Crane (Fax: 202-225-7830)
      Congressman Tom Lantos (Fax: 202-225-3127)
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
LETTER #2
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Reply to:______________________________________________________
Date:_________________________________________________________


The Honorable Daniel Patrick Moynihan
464 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510-3201
(e-mail: )

Dear Senator Moynihan,

I am a member of the Hungarian Lobby of the United States which has been
formed to provide a voice for the 1.58 million Hungarian-American voters.

I am writing in connection with Senate bill #1644, introduced by Colorado's
Republican Senator Hank Brown. This bill would eliminate the yearly renewal
of Romania's MFN status by making that status permanent and unconditional. I
strongly object to this recommenda tion of the Republican Senator of Colorado
and strongly support President Clinton, who a few months ago reminded
President Iliescu, that curbing press freedoms, condoning extremist
nationalism, refusing to return church properties and denying cultural
autonomy to the Hungarian national community is not the way to gain permanent
MFN status.

I would like to note that the very purpose of the Trade Act of 1974 (the
Jackson-Vanik Ammendment, which established MFN) was:  To assume the
continued dedication of the United States to fundamental human rights..  It
is that very purpose that would be compromised by bill #1644, by terminating
the most important vehicle the United States has for the defense of human
rights. At a time when our European allies are setting up effective
mechanisms to protect human rights, the United States, the leader of the free
world, which originated the fight for human rights, should not give such a
sad example of unprincipled retreat on this front.

I would respectfully remind you Mr. Senator, that while some states, such as
China can afford to disregard the human rights concerns of the United States,
Romania can not. I would also like to remind you that the beneficiary of the
Brown bill would not be the Romanian people, as they already enjoy the
benefits of MFN. The only beneficiary would be Ion Iliescu who, being a
former Communist, is running against a reform movement in this fall's
election, and would use the Brown bill as an American endorsement of his
presidency.

Therefore I respectfully ask you to support President Clinton's message to
Ion Iliescu and the Romanian people, reject the Brown bill, and postpone the
vote on Romanian MFN until after the elections in Romania.

Respectfully yours,
Your name, address, title or if this letter is signed by many, the list of
signatures collected at church or other events.
NAME                                  ADDRESS
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
LETTER #3
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Reply to:______________________________________________________
Date:_________________________________________________________

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave
Washington, D.C.
(e-mail: )

Dear Mr. President,

By signing and thereby guaranteeing the Paris Peace Treaty on February 10,
1947, the United States, together with the other Great Powers, has taken
responsibility for the rights of the indigenous national communities of
Hungarians outside Hungary. As a member of the community of 1.58 million
Hungarian-Americans, I would like to learn if upon being reelected, you
would take steps to protect these minorities.

The Minority Protection Treaties of Trianon would have required  Hungary's
neighbors to return the school and church properties of the Hungarian
communities,  to guarantee the free use of Hungarian language in schools and
elsewhere, and to respect the cultural and administrative autonomy of these
communities.

During the years of Soviet occupation, the United States was in no position
to protect these minorities. After 1989, the civil war in Bosnia has
distracted our attention. As a Hungarian-American  voter, I now feel that the
time has come to guarantee the cultural autonomy of all minorities in the
region and thereby prevent an other Bosnia. Therefore I intend to vote for
the candidate who
promises to do that.

I would be grateful if you would either make a public statement on this issue
or would incorporate the support of the autonomy for Central European
minorities into the foreign policy platform of the Democratic Party.


Respectfully yours,
Your name, address, title or if this letter is signed by many, the list of
signatures collected at church or other events.
NAME                                  ADDRESS
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
LETTER #4
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Reply to:______________________________________________________
Date:_________________________________________________________

Senator Bob Dole
United States Senate
Washington, D.C. 20510
(Fax: 202-228-1245)

Dear Senator Dole,

By signing and thereby guaranteeing the Paris Peace Treaty on February 10,
1947, the United States, together with the other Great Powers, has taken
responsibility for the rights of the indigenous national communities of
Hungarians outside Hungary. As a member of the community of 1.58 million
Hungarian-Americans, I would like to learn if upon being elected President of
the United States, you would take steps to protect these minorities.

The Minority Protection Treaties of Trianon would have required  Hungary's
neighbors to return the school and church properties of the Hungarian
communities,  to guarantee the free use of Hungarian language in schools and
elsewhere, and to respect the cultural and administrative autonomy of these
communities.

During the years of Soviet occupation, the United States was in no position
to protect these minorities. After 1989, the civil war in Bosnia has
distracted our attention. As a Hungarian-American  voter, I now feel that the
time has come to guarantee the cultural autonomy of all minorities in the
region and thereby prevent an other Bosnia. Therefore I intend to vote for
the candidate who promises to do that.

I would be grateful if you would either make a public statement on this issue
or would incorporate the support of the autonomy for Central European
minorities into the foreign policy platform of the Republican Party.

Respectfully yours,
Your name, address, title or if this letter is signed by many, the list of
signatures collected at church or other events.
NAME                                  ADDRESS
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
LIST OF HL-ACTIONS IN PROGRESS
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

BACKGROUND INFORMATION (Articles)

Csangs Problem (13)
Cseresznyes - Facts (25)
Danube and the Compromise Plan (2)
Hungarian History (1 & 24)
Linguists Against the Slovak Language Law (26)
Our Blind Spot for Vojvodina (2)
Pannonhalma (2)
Proclamation of the Hungarians in Slovakia (2)
Slovak Constitution (4)
Subcarpathia (4)
Transylvania and the Romanian Constitution (3)
Trianon (2)
Vojvodina (1)
1956 Memoirs (2)

LETTER AND FAX CAMPAIGNS (Formletters)

Amnesty for Pal Cseresznyes and response on behalf of President Iliescu (2)
Carl Bildt, EC Ethnic Minority Commissioner, Thanks for Steps on Slovakia (2)
Commemorative Stamp for 40th Anniversary (2)
Danube - International Court of Justice (2)
            - Support for Environmental NGO Memorial (2)
            - BBC-CNN Film (2)
Debt Rescheduling, a Request to Gyula Horn (2)
Delaying vote on MFN for Romania (28)
European - Continuing debate on autonomy in Romania (10)
Holbrooke, Richard - Thanks for speaking up on Transylvania (2)
Hungarian Secret Police - Opening the Files (2)
Koreh Case, Requesting fair trial and right to defense (10)
Opposition to Language Law in USA (23)
Protesting Attack on Szatymaz Church (21)
Protesting Exploitation of Imre Nagy's Memory by MSZP (18)
Protesting Gerrymandering in Slovakia (2)
Protesting Interference w/World Congress of Reformed Churches (2)
Protesting Slovak Language Police (2 & 9)
Protesting Romanian Educational Policy in Transylvania (2)
Stamp to Commemorate the Hungarian Revolution (2)
Support for Somorja's Mayor on Language Law's Constitutionality (2)
Support for Unitarian Statement on Human Rights in Romania (5)
Sz|lvfvld|nk - Steps to Improve Broadcasting (7)
USA Presidential Campaign - Letter to Clinton/Dole (2, 8 &17)
40th Anniversary - Support for Depoliticizing (2)

OTHER PROJECTS
Donations to Publish History of Bolyai Farkas Liceum (16 & 20)
Donations for Building School Dormitory in Szabadka (27)
Fund-raising for Hungarian Press in Slovakia (6)
Sponsors ($20/mo) for Csango Students Studying in Transylvania (19)
August 20th Advertisement on NY Times OP-Ed Page (2)
Data on Hungarian media in the USA (7)

NUMBER CODES:
1) 
2) HL archives at http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/archive/ or 
3) 
4) 
5) 
6) Laszls Bvjtvs, 11312 Fitzwater Dr. Brecksville, OH 44141
7) 
8) 
9) Eugene Megyesy Esq., fax: 303-832-3804
10) 
11) 
12) 
13) kurrah.cab.jgytf.u-szeged.hu  OR 
(14) 
(15) AmberSass
(16) Cultural Foundation for Transylvania, POB 1487, Washington DC 20013-1487
(17) Dr. J.L. Bollyky (fax: 203-967-4845)
(18) 
(19) St. Elizabeth Church, 9016 Buckeye Road, Cleveland, OH 44104
(20) 
(21) 
(22) 
(23) 
(24) http://www.mediarange.com/media/huncor/huncor.htm
(25) 
(26) 
(27) 
(28) HHRF fax: 212-996-6268, Hungarian Coalition fax: 202-775-5175

Dear Professor Liptak,

  First of all, I sincerely respect your work in the Hungarian Lobby.
  Moreover, I consider your approach to inter-hungarian relations wise
  and noble.
  Nevertheless, I write you this letter in front of this limited
  audience by personal reason.

  In the recent weeks, a letter was circulated on the behalf of
  Ferenc Koreh a former nazi journalist whose American citizenship
  was stripped after due process. Some years ago some prominent Hungarians
  circulated letters supporting Jozsef Szendi a mass-murderer, and
  Lyndon LaRouche who was a federal prisoner at this time.
  This kind of activity is highly questionable. (Prof. Liptak can
  not be associated to any of these letters directly, I must add with
  relief.)

  Also, you signed a protest letter to Gabor Kuncze on the behalf
  of the Hungarian Lobby. Item one : You objected the police action
  against some armed neo-nazi (they were not even arrested, only
  lined up for questioning).  Item two : You alluded that some sort of
  political forces are behind the vandal acts in Szatymaz. This was a pet
  issue of the Hungarian ultraright even when four local people were
  indicted for the crime. You did not send similar letter after the
  vandalization of the Jewish Cemetery in Budapest. I know that you were
  set up, and I know exactly by whom.

  About a month ago a libelous letter was posted in the HL, using
  threatening language against Geza Jeszenszky a moderate conservative.

  Some of your recent letters concerning the IMF and the World Bank contained
  segments disturbingly familiar to me from postings of noted anti-semites.
  This segments were completely different from your usual writing style
  and vocabulary.

  A certain Internet newsletter boasting with neo-fascist connections
  used your organization in their web-page as a "tool" to achieve their
  goals. We are talking about the manifest supporter of Csurka and Torgyan.
  And I was euphemistic when I mentioned only these two names.

  I think you and your friends were used against your own will for
  dirty political goals.

  You can not associate yourself with an unnamed person say X.Y and
  Rep. Lantos at the same time. X.Y tried to organize a mob against
  the house of Rep. Lantos. X.Y viciously attacked Rep. Lantos
  and others when they used the Congress Floor to condemn Csurka's
  anti-semite politics. You can not have it both ways. Amato, Pataki
  or even Dornan a ultra-conservative (who also condemned Csurka !!!)
  not even mention Lantos or Dodd will never associate themselves even
  indirectly with X.Y.

  I think it would be wise to disassociate your organization from
  people who can cause the greates imaginable humiliation. I might
  be wrong, but I think X.Y is one of these people.


  Respectfully,
  Gabor Elek

Dears,

  As you might know, Hungary's constitution will be replaced and
  a new version is being circulated for public debate in Hungarian newspapers.
  Many people think that the public debate can not be organized as
  Hungarian Law prescribes it. I heard that Jozsef Hollosi
  would offer his help in conducting an Internet debate.
  Considering the fact that Jozsi has enough trouble without our novel ideas
  first I would like to ask anybody who believes that this whole stuff
  is not a bunch of crap to speak up in the list. If you can
  reach some poor Hungarian politician who wants to sink to the level
  of the masses and share with them his or her noble opinion on the
  Constitution of our country, it would be even nicer.

  Yours truly reached the age when retirement form the Internet is
  inevitable, so I do not think that I can personally participate in
  the discussion. Yes, I ask you to actually do something, and then I
  just leave the whole mess behind. It is an archetypical Hungarian
  characteristic which made our nation so great and powerful. EG

Friends,

       It didn't take long for the garbage to reappear. Did it?

                                                           Amos
------
On May 5,  7:07pm, Dancs Szabolcs wrote:
                     (?      ?)
> Subject: (Fwd) Nemzet 1996.05.01.
> Forwarded message:
> From:          "Domokos Attila" <JPTE-STUD/SYCUL>
> To:            ira
                 (?)
> Date:          Sun, 5 May 1996 19:05:20 MET-1
> Subject:       Nemzet 1996.05.01.
>
> N     N  EEEEEEE  M     M  ZZZZZZZ  EEEEEEE  TTTTTTT
> NN    N  E        MM   MM       Z   E           T
> N N   N  E        M M M M      Z    E           T
> N  N  N  EEEE     M  M  M     Z     EEEE        T
> N   N N  E        M     M    Z      E           T
> N    NN  E        M     M   Z       E           T
> N     N  EEEEEEE  M     M  ZZZZZZZ  EEEEEEE     T
>
>          Magyar Internet Vilaglap
>
           Don't make me laugh!!!
           ----------------------

> A legelmergesedettebb harc 1956-ert a "Hungary" nevu (amerikai
> liberalis magankezen levo) Internet-listan folyt, ahol a "kadar-
                                                           -------
> jugend" olyan liberalis gyerekei tundokolnek,
  -------
-----
> Az "ideologiai hatteret" mindehhez Balogh Eva adja ott,
-----
> olyan amerikai liberalis idiotat emeltek ki annak "elbiralasara"
> hogy hazugsag-e hogy "1956-OT MAGYARUL NEM HIVJUK
> SZABADSAGHARCNAK", aki - (1) nem csak hogy 1956-ban, de
> SOHASEM JART Magyarorszagon, (2) NEM TUD MAGYARUL!
-----
> Hogy ez az elkepeszto hazugsagozon ne fulladjon kozrohejbe,
> termeszetesen nem maradt mas a "Hungary" lista tulajdonosanak,
> mint hogy CENZURAT VEZETETT BE - termeszetesen nem
> Kornai, Balogh, Fencsik es mas liberalis idiotak ellen, hanem
> mindazok ellen, akik (felhasznalva a "public.siliconvalley" domain
                       ---------------------------------------------
> altal nyujtott vedelmet) 1956-ert, es azaltal az adossagelengedesert
  ------------------------
> kuzdenek.
>-- End of excerpt from Dancs Szabolcs
                         (?      ?)

At 03:20 PM 5/5/96 -0400, you wrote:
>    Friends,
>
>       It didn't take long for the garbage to reappear. Did it?
>
>                                                           Amos
>------
        Thank you for echoing my sentiments!

                                                              Aniko

>  I heard that Jozsef Hollosi
>  would offer his help in conducting an Internet debate.
>  Considering the fact that Jozsi has enough trouble without our novel ideas
>  first I would like to ask anybody who believes that this whole stuff
>  is not a bunch of crap to speak up in the list. If you can
>  reach some poor Hungarian politician who wants to sink to the level
>  of the masses and share with them his or her noble opinion on the
>  Constitution of our country, it would be even nicer.

        I think it is a great idea. I have been somewhat disappointed that I
couldn't lay my hands on the draft constitution. I am rather curious. In
addition, about a year ago I read an article on the issue of the
constitution in HVG. At that time there were rumors that Pal Vastagh,
minister of justice, was considering to incorporate certain ideas which made
reference to the socialist nature of the economy. I wasn't too crazy about
such ideas and I am just curious whether this was dropped or not.

        Sure, if Jozsi Hollosi is willing. There are people around who are
familiar with constitutional law; you, Gabor, especially, and therefore, I
do hope that you are not exiting from the Internet before you put your two
cents' worth in.

        Eva Balogh

I would like to add my voice to that of Gabor Elek concerning the
recent happenings on Hungarian Lobby. My association with Be'la Lipta'k goes
back a long way. In 1956 we didn't know each other, but, as it turned out,
we were attending the same secret student meetings, and, generally speaking,
we were on the same side. Years later, Be'la Lipta'k gave a helping hand to
us, when Stephen Borsody, an ardent liberal and a promoter of understanding
among nations in the Danubian region, and I needed a few thousand dollars to
help us with the publication of *The Hungarians: A Divided Nation* (New
Haven: Yale Center of International and Area Studies, 1988). Therefore, I
wasn't surprised when Be'la Lipta'k included my name as one of the 140
charter members of the Hungarian Lobby.

        I must admit that I don't follow the Hungarian Lobby daily but I did
see in the Forum a copy of a letter which had originally appeared in
Hungarian Lobby written by Andras Pellionisz to Ge'za Jeszenszky, fellow
historian and former minister of foreign affairs. At that time I wrote to
Be'la and warned him about Pellionisz and other fictitious characters
writing from siliconvalley.com site. Now that I think about it a bit more I
am coming to the conclusion that Mr. Pellionisz must have been invited to
join the Hungarian Lobby because otherwise, he would not have been able to
publish his letter y to Jeszenszky. Therefore, I would like to ask Be'la
Lipta'k to remove the name/names of all writing from silionconvalley.com
because I consider these people followers of the Hungarian version of
national socialism. Otherwise, regretfully I have to resign from the
membership of the Hungarian Lobby.

        Eva Balogh

On May 4,  9:52am, Gabor Elek wrote:
> Subject: robust debate
>
>   And although Oliver Wendell Holmes initiated a unified look to
>   this debate from the government's point of view, it does not
>   mean the all layers of the society should regard the debate
>   as the government does.


    I have read  your post  with interest.  Without engaging  in a
    debate about the whole of it,I have to make a correction here.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes  has unified  the Court's (law) point of
    view, not that of the government's.This makes a very important
    difference.  The decision limits  the government's power,  not
    enhances it.
                    Amos

Janos Zsargo's interpretation of the quoted parts of Istvan Deak's article
on 1848 left me speechless. Janos's understanding was that

>Furthermore the citations from your books show
>that there were willingness (at some degree) for compromises on our side, but
>say nothing about the Habsburg side.

        Doesn't matter how often I reread the quoted passages I find
absolutely nothing to support the above. I am coming to the conclusion that
human beings, if their minds are already made up, will read anything within
the framework of their preconcieved ideas. For the same reason, I start
doubting my own sanity. Maybe I am doing the same thing. Therefore, I will
ask people, who are unfamiliar with the controversy, to let us know whether
there is anything in Deak's paragraphs indicating that the Hungarian side
was ready for compromise.

>How can you prove that this council did not simply fooled the Hungarians with
>seemingly accept the April Laws and establish the order in the other revolting
>part of the Empire (Vienna, Italy, etc) and later on come back to this issue.
>What moves they made to find the compromise with the Hungarians? I know none.

        All right! Let's put somewhat differently. There is a series of
revolutions all over Europe and the peoples of the Habsburg Empire are also
extremely restless. Revolts in Vienna, Pest, Milan, there are problems in
Prague. In brief, the whole edifice is falling apart. Poor Nandi
(Ferdinand!) is feeble-minded and completely helpless. The Austrians want to
join the German states whose leaders are just now comtemplating to form a
new Reich, Austrian provinces included. And there is a robust Hungarian
parliament, working out their demands (the April Laws) and every time they
include another item (I think there were 21 all told) they say to
themselves: this dreadful Nandi he cannot be trusted, we will have to make
sure that he doesn't attack us. And every time they put in a new item, poor
Nandi feels more and more upset. And if the April Laws (which the king
signed) wasn't enough, well, let's make him even madder: tell the king that
we want our Hungarian troops back home from Italy but at the same time we
tell all the foreigners in the emperor's army stationed in Hungary to swear
loyalty to the Hungarian government. Or if that wasn't enough, we don't want
to help with finances but at the same time, despite all objections from
Vienna, we start printing money!

        What I want to say is that political leaders who behaved this way
surely wanted to severe relationship with Vienna. Or, rather hoped that the
Austrian Germans actually would join the German states to form a modern
Germany, and thus poor Nandi would end up in Pest-Buda as king and only king
of Hungary. All other provinces would be lost and poor Nandi would have to
face the ire of the nationalities as king of Hungary. Well, Nandi didn't
want to do that. Not only that, but the imperial army's top brass didn't
want to swear loyalty to Hungary, and neither the Serbs nor the Croats were
crazy about this new arrangement. (Actually the Serbs rebelled before
Jelasic began his attack.)

        By the way, did you ever ask yourself why Szechenyi and Deak
resigned from the government in September 1848?

        Instead of relying my quoting the article, why don't you buy the
paperback edition of *A History of Hungary." I am sure that you can find it
in the university bookstore.

        Eva Balogh

I thought I'd let readers of the list know of an interesting site:

http://bucharest.com/romweb.html

It is best viewed with Netscape 2. It contains a multitude of news sources
(and other information) from Romania, mostly in Romanian but some in
English. For those of you who speak Romanian, the weekly Romania Literara is
worth reading (in my opinion). The RADOR news contains a daily synopsis of
the news, as announced by the Romanian radio and TV stations. There is also
a weekly edition (in English) of the opposition newspaper Romania Libera.

Gabor D. Farkas

E. Balogh suggested:

>Janos Zsargo's interpretation of the quoted parts of Istvan Deak's article
>on 1848 left me speechless. Janos's understanding was that
>
>>Furthermore the citations from your books show
>>that there were willingness (at some degree) for compromises on our side, but
>>say nothing about the Habsburg side.
>
>        Doesn't matter how often I reread the quoted passages I find
>absolutely nothing to support the above. I am coming to the conclusion that
>human beings, if their minds are already made up, will read anything within
>the framework of their preconcieved ideas. For the same reason, I start
>doubting my own sanity. Maybe I am doing the same thing. Therefore, I will
>ask people, who are unfamiliar with the controversy, to let us know whether
>there is anything in Deak's paragraphs indicating that the Hungarian side
>was ready for compromise.

That is a good idea, and for make it clear for everybody what passage I ment
supporting the hungarian willingness for compromise (at some degree!! or in
hungarian "Bizonyos mertekig"):

>From Deak's paragraphs:
>        "The trouble was that the Hungarian leaders themselves could not
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>decide whether Hungary should or could stay in the monarchy. Their fear of
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Russia, the Pan-Slav movement, and peasant and national minority revolts
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>drove them toward a close alliance with the ruler and the Austrian half of
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the monarchy. Their nationalist ambitions, on the other hand, and their fear
>that the monarchy might collapse any day, prompted the Hungarian politicians
>to prepare for complete indepence.
>
>        "The result was confusion, which satisfied neither the Austrians nor
>the Hungarian nationalists."

I do think the underlined parts suggest that the Hungarian politicians at least
considered the possibility to stay within the monarchy.

also E.Balogh asking me:

>        Instead of relying my quoting the article, why don't you buy the
>paperback edition of *A History of Hungary." I am sure that you can find it
>in the university bookstore.

because this is the Hungary NG and not the History-213 or whatever you taught,
where you go through the daily material and send the students to read some
background material. If you came out with some idea and I questioned it and
had some resonable questions (at least in my opinion), then you should be able
to explain them. Eventually you should have the ability (methodology, or
whatever you call it) with the help of Deak's book as information source
to highlight the errors in my thinking and questions (if there are).

J.Zsargo

Dear Eva,

We did not invite Mr. Pellonides (or anybody else) to the Hungarian Lobby
list and we do not remove anybody either. People subscribe and all
subscribers are accepted. People also unsubscribe on their own.

The only request we make of the subsribers is that they honor the
"work-group" nature of HL. In other words: on the HL there is no discussion,
no information exchange, no debate, ONLY WORK. People who want to talk
instead of acting are asked to join the HAL-list. On HAL people debate,
argue,etc. The reason we limit the HL to action proposals is that the people
on the list are very busy. We try to limit the demand on their time to 10
minutes a day. Therefore, we try to keep the daily actions down to 2-3 and
formulate our letters, articles in such a form, that all they need to do is
sign it and send them on. If I don't like an action proposal, I ignore it, if
I like it, I act on it.

I hope this clarifies the open, voluntary, unstructured and leaderless nature
of HL and the fact that I am only a member and don't subscribe/unsubscribe
anybody except myself.

Best personal regards: Bela Liptak

Janos Zsargo:

>I do think the underlined parts suggest that the Hungarian politicians at leas
t
>considered the possibility to stay within the monarchy.

        How kind of them. But that wasn't the question. The question was how
much the Hungarians themselves provoked the conflict.


>also E.Balogh asking me:
>
>>        Instead of relying my quoting the article, why don't you buy the
>>paperback edition of *A History of Hungary." I am sure that you can find it
>>in the university bookstore.
>
>because this is the Hungary NG and not the History-213 or whatever you taught,
>where you go through the daily material and send the students to read some
>background material.

        In those days I got paid for teaching History-213 or whatever. Here
I don't.

>If you came out with some idea and I questioned it and
>had some resonable questions (at least in my opinion), then you should be able
>to explain them.

        I am explaining, and explaining and you are not listening!

>Eventually you should have the ability (methodology, or
>whatever you call it) with the help of Deak's book as information source
>to highlight the errors in my thinking and questions

You can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink.

        Eva Balogh

Dear Bela,

        I guess because I was included most likely by you in the original
group I thought that all people on the list have been similarly included, or
perhaps personally approached to join. However, you write

>I hope this clarifies the open, voluntary, unstructured and leaderless nature
>of HL and the fact that I am only a member and don't subscribe/unsubscribe
>anybody except myself.

        I must say that this seems dangerous to me because you are letting
people lose to work on behalf of Hungary about whom you know absolutely
nothing. I wonder whether it would be not advisable to be more careful who
should be included in a lobby group of this nature. Mr. Pellionisz and some
others are dangerous people with dangerous ideas who might speak in the name
of the Hungarian Lobby which, after all, was your creation. And the mention
of the Hungarian Lobby on Mr. Pellionisz's homepage which includes his
publication Nemzet is again I don't think is in the interest of a lobby
group created by you.

        Sincerely yours,

        Eva [Balogh]

Forwarded message:
From:          "Domokos Attila" <JPTE-STUD/SYCUL>
To:            ira
Date:          Sun, 5 May 1996 19:05:20 MET-1
Subject:       Nemzet 1996.05.01.

N     N  EEEEEEE  M     M  ZZZZZZZ  EEEEEEE  TTTTTTT
NN    N  E        MM   MM       Z   E           T
N N   N  E        M M M M      Z    E           T
N  N  N  EEEE     M  M  M     Z     EEEE        T
N   N N  E        M     M    Z      E           T
N    NN  E        M     M   Z       E           T
N     N  EEEEEEE  M     M  ZZZZZZZ  EEEEEEE     T

         Magyar Internet Vilaglap


(3) CENZURA AZ INTERNETEN

Az USA kozeleteben hallatlan jelentosege van a Valutaalap es
Vilagbank publicitasanak, kulonosen most, mivel Jelcin ujra-
valasztasanak biztositasara ezek az intezmenyek mintegy $40
MILLIARDOS ADOSSAGKONNYITEST engedtek Orosz-
orszagnak. Ismeretes, hogy a jobboldali USA emigracio mar
evek ota koveteli (pl. az Internet segitsegevel is), hogy M.o.
ne legyen (megint) "utolso csatlosa" egy roskatag birodalomnak
(ezuttal az IMF-WB-nek) az adossag nyogeseben, amikor
Lengyelorszag, Bulgaria, Albania utan Oroszorszag sem fizet.

A jobboldali USA emigracio kulonosen az 1956-os Forradalom
es Szabadsagharc-ra valo hivatkozassal harcol a kamatrabszolgasag
aloli felszabadulasert, es ebben fontos szerepe van az ANGOL
NYELVU Internet-harcnak 1956 melto elismereseert.

A legelmergesedettebb harc 1956-ert a "Hungary" nevu (amerikai
liberalis magankezen levo) Internet-listan folyt, ahol a "kadar-
jugend" olyan liberalis gyerekei tundokolnek, mint KORNAI ANDRAS
(annak a Kornai Janos kozgazdasznak a fia, aki maga is penzt vett
fel a Vilagbanktol!), es Fencsik Gabor (a Nemzet olvasoi elott
ismeretes Fencsik Flora szerepe abban, hogyan tagadja le az SZDSZ
liberalis sajtoja a "Taxisblokad"-ban valo szerepuket, ld.
http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzet/95128.html ). Kornai Andras
avval tette magat hirhedtte, hogy nyilvanosan tagadja, hogy 1956
"Szabadsagharc" volt, Fencsik Gabor pedig az adossagelengedesert
valo kuzdelem ellen agal minden lehetseges (es lehetetlen) ervvel.
Az "ideologiai hatteret" mindehhez Balogh Eva adja ott, aki allitolagos
torteneszi multjat is kerekbetorve csatlakozott 1956 es az adossag-
elengedes elleni liberalis kuzdelemhez, ujabban olyan hazugsaggal,
hogy "magyarul sohasem mondjuk 1956-ot SZABADSAGHARC-
NAK". Jellemzo a tarsasagra, hogy az elmergesedett vitaban egy
olyan amerikai liberalis idiotat emeltek ki annak "elbiralasara"
hogy hazugsag-e hogy "1956-OT MAGYARUL NEM HIVJUK
SZABADSAGHARCNAK", aki - (1) nem csak hogy 1956-ban, de
SOHASEM JART Magyarorszagon, (2) NEM TUD MAGYARUL!

Hogy ez az elkepeszto hazugsagozon ne fulladjon kozrohejbe,
termeszetesen nem maradt mas a "Hungary" lista tulajdonosanak,
mint hogy CENZURAT VEZETETT BE - termeszetesen nem
Kornai, Balogh, Fencsik es mas liberalis idiotak ellen, hanem
mindazok ellen, akik (felhasznalva a "public.siliconvalley" domain
altal nyujtott vedelmet) 1956-ert, es azaltal az adossagelengedesert
kuzdenek.

Dear  friends!

    I thought it was interesting for you. What's the matter with  me?
    Are  you of the opinion  that everyone want to hurt you? Thanks
for trusting   me. I like your style.

        Dancs Szabolcs