rz

** B00000000000000
Š** B00000000000000
Š** B00000000000000
Š** B00000000000000
Š** B00000000000000

     I agree with Fred Hamori that the current ethno-linguistic

theories should be reviewed. The following are excerpts from my

research work entitled "The controversy on the origins and early

history of the Hungarians" which I presented at the Canadian

Hungarian Studies Association's 1996 annual conference:



....  The Finno-Ugrian theory's origins can be traced back to a book

published in 1770 by a Hungarian Jesuit, Janos Sajnovics, in which

he claimed that the Hungarian language is identical to that of the

Lapps. This work had no immediate significant impact in Hungary,

but it was followed up by mainly German linguists, among whom

August von Schlozer played the leading role in the development of

the Finno-Ugrian linguistic school. This school had a determining

influence on the development of linguistic research in Hungary

during the second half of the 19th c., where linguists of German

origin also played a leading role. At that time, Hungary was ruled

by the Habsburgs, and German influence was very strong in the

political, economic, social, and cultural fields.



     It is also important to note that the 19th c. saw the rise of

modern nationalism throughout Europe, and that German nationalism

was among the most chauvinistic. It was in this context that the

idea of a superior Aryan race was conceived. Although the term

"Aryan race" is no longer considered politically correct and has

been replaced by the more scientifically-sounding "Indo-European"

term, the fundamental assumption of this ethno-linguistic group's

cultural pre-eminence is still being maintained today. Just as the

proponents of this theory sought to prove their claims of Indo-

European (Aryan) cultural superiority, they also sought to prove

that, conversely, non-Indo-Europeans were culturally inferior. The

Finno-Ugrian theory was therefore promoted in this ideologically

biased context.



     Following the defeat of the Hungarian War of Independence of

1848-49, the repressive Habsburg regime took over the Hungarian

academic institutions and imposed the exclusive research

orientation of the Finno-Ugrian theory about the origin of the

Hungarians. Thus, the Hungarian Academy of Sciences became an

instrument of the Habsburg regime's cultural policy of

Germanization, which sought to weaken the Hungarian national

identity - thereby facilitating foreign domination - through the

distortion and falsification of information relating to the origin,

history, culture, and language of the Hungarians, censoring and

prohibiting any publication or research which did not conform to

the officially imposed Finno-Ugrian theory. This was also the case

under the Hungarian Communist regime which also pursued an anti-

Hungarian policy with the objective of Russification. It was

therefore in the interest of these regimes to "let the conquered

Hungarians believe that they have an ancestry more primitive than

that of the Indo-European peoples. In Habsburg times Hungarian

children were taught that most of their civilization came from the

Germans: today they are taught that their 'barbaric' ancestors were

civilized by the educated Slavs".



     The Finno-Ugrian theory proved to be most suitable for this

purpose. This theory claims that the Hungarians originated from

primitive Siberian hunter-gatherer nomads who wandered Westward and

who acquired a higher culture upon coming into contact with Indo-

Europeans and other peoples. This theory has been increasingly

brought under criticism by dissident and exiled Hungarian

researchers because of its negative portrayal of the Hungarians in

relation to their neighbours, because of the historical and

political circumstances under which this theory has been imposed

and perpetuated, and because this theory fails to take into

consideration a substantial amount of scientific data which

contradicts it. It should also be noted that according to the

scientific review "Nature" (20/02/92), the quality of the research

conducted at the Hungarian Academy of Sciences is rather poor, and

this also seems to apply to the Finno-Ugrian research orientation.

....

     The significant degree of uncertainty and confusion which

still exists within this field of research is due to the fact that

the Finno-Ugrian theory is essentially based on linguistic

speculation which is not supported by any conclusive archeological,

anthropological and historical evidence. In fact, most of the

available evidence seems to contradict the Finno-Ugrian theory, and

furthermore, serious reservations have been raised concerning some

of its linguistic arguments. Several researchers have also pointed

out that the Finno-Ugrian theory contains serious methodological

inconsistencies and errors, that the term "Finno-Ugrian" itself is

arbitrary and unscientific, and that the inclusion of Hungarian in

the Uralic group is artificial and without adequate scientific

basis.



     It is not the apparent linguistic similarities between the

Hungarian and the Uralic languages which are in question, but the

nature and degree of the relationship between the two groups. The

Finno-Ugrian theory's assumption that the Hungarians are directly

descended from the "Finno-Ugrians" and that the Uralic peoples are

the only ethno-linguistic relatives of the Hungarians seems to be

fundamentally flawed: a specific linguistic relationship does not

necessarily correspond to a genetic relationship, nor can it

exclude relationships with other ethnic groups. The Finno-Ugrian

theory rejects the possibility that the Uralic group may somehow be

related to other ethno-linguistic groups such as the Altaic group,

perhaps partly because the first major challenge to the Finno-

Ugrian theory came from advocates of the theory that the Hungarians

were of Turkic origin, based on the numerous and significant

observable linguistic, cultural and anthropological similarities

between the Hungarian and Turkic peoples, as well as on historical

evidence.



     In fact, comparative linguistic analysis has shown that there

are many similarities between Hungarian and several other major

Eurasian linguistic groups, and although the Finno-Ugrian theory

claims that these similarities are the results of borrowings on the

part of the Hungarians, it nevertheless appears that the Finno-

Ugrian theory requires a fundamental revision concerning the

relationship between the Hungarians and the Uralic group, as well

as their relationship to other ethno-linguistic groups. An

alternative explanation for the existing linguistic relationship

between Hungarian and other languages, including the Uralic and

Altaic languages, is provided by the Sumerian ethno-linguistic and

cultural diffusion theory, according to which the Eurasian ethno-

linguistic groups were formed under the dominant cultural and

linguistic influence of the Sumerian-related peoples originating

from the Near East and which have progressively spread throughout

Eurasia during several millenia since the Neolithic period (5000

BC).



     After British, French and German archeologists and linguists

discovered and deciphered the oldest known written records in

Mesopotamia and its neighbouring regions during the first half of

the 19th c., they came to the conclusion that the language of those

ancient inscriptions was neither Indo-European nor Semitic, but an

agglutinative language which demonstrated significant similarities

with the group of agglutinative languages known at the time as the

Turanian ethno-linguistic group which included Hungarian, Turkic,

Mongolian and Finnic (later referred to as the Ural-Altaic group).

....

     The principal results of the research conducted so far on the

Sumerian-Hungarian relationship have indicated that these languages

have over a thousand common word roots and a very similar

grammatical structure. In his Sumerian Etymological Dictionary and

Comparative Grammar, K lm n Gosztony, professor of Sumerian

philology at the Sorbonne, demonstrated that the grammatical

structure of the Hungarian language is the closest to that of the

Sumerian language: out of the 53 characteristics of Sumerian

grammar, there are 51 matching characteristics in the Hungarian

language, 29 in the Turkic languages, 24 in the Caucasian

languages, 21 in the Uralic languages, 5 in the Semitic languages,

and 4 in the Indo-European languages.



     The linguistic similarities between Sumerian and Hungarian as

well as other languages are corroborated by the archeological and

anthropological data discovered so far. These archeological finds

indicate that the Sumerians were the first settlers of Southern

Mesopotamia (5000 BC), where they had come from the mountainous

regions to the North and East with their knowledge of agriculture

and metallurgy, and where they built the first cities. Their use of

irrigation allowed an unprecedented population increase, resulting

in successive migratory waves which can be traced archeologically

and anthropologically throughout Eurasia and North Africa. Thus,

from the evidence left by this process of colonization, it appears

that the Sumerian city-states were able to exert a preponderant

economic, cultural, linguistic and ethnic influence during several

thousand years not only in Mesopotamia and the rest of the Near

East, but also beyond, in the Mediterranean Basin, in the Danubian

Basin, in the regions North of the Caucasus and of the Black Sea,

in the Caspian-Aral, Volga-Ural, and Altai regions, as well as in

Iran and India. It seems therefore that the Sumerians and their

civilization had a determining influence not only on later Near-

Eastern civilizations, but also on the Mediterranean, Indian, and

even Chinese civilizations, as well as on the formation of the

various Eurasian ethno-linguistic groups.



     One of the most comprehensive studies examining this complex

question is Laszlo Gotz's 5-volume 1100-page research work entitled

"Keleten Kel a Nap" (The Sun rises in the East), for which the

author consulted over 500 bibliographical sources from among the

most authoritative experts in the fields of ancient history,

archeology, and linguistics. In his wide-ranging study, Laszlo Gotz

examined the development of the Sumerian civilization, the

determining cultural and ethno-linguistic influence of the Near-

Eastern Neolithic, Copper and Bronze Age civilizations upon the

cultural development of Western Eurasia, and the linguistic

parallels between the Indo-European, Semitic and Sumerian languages

indicating that the Sumerian language had a considerable impact on

the development of the Indo-European and Semitic languages which

have numerous words of Sumerian origin. Laszlo Gotz also examined

the fundamental methodological shortcomings of Indo-European and

Finno-Ugrian ethno-linguistic research. His conclusion is that most

Eurasian ethno-linguistic groups are related to one another in

varying degrees, and that these groups, such as the Indo-European,

Uralic and Altaic groups, were formed in a complex process of

multiple ethno-linguistic hybridization in which Sumerian-related

peoples played a fundamental role.



....   The archeological and anthropological finds of the Carpathian

Basin indicate that the indigenous population (the Neolithic,

Copper and Bronze Age settlers) was related to, and at least in

part originated from, the ancient Near-Eastern civilizations.



....

     It appears therefore that a fundamental revision of early

Hungarian history is necessary in order to arrive at a more

accurate picture, and much research work remains to be done in this

field. Based on the available information, it seems most probable

that the Hungarians are a synthesis of the peoples which have

settled in the Carpathian Basin since the Neolithic period up to

the Middle Ages: the Sumerian-related peoples of Near-Eastern

origin (Neolithic, Copper and Bronze Ages), followed by the

Scythians (6th c. BC), the Huns (5th c. AD), the Avars (6th c.),

the Magyars (9th c.), the Petchenegs (11th c.), and the Cumans

(13th c.). This Hungarian synthesis is characterized by a

remarkable ethno-linguistic homogeneity and has remained highly

differentiated from the considerably more numerous surrounding

Indo-European peoples. The conclusion which can be drawn from this

is that the Hungarians were able to preserve their ethno-linguistic

identity and to maintain a demographic majority or critical mass

within the Carpathian Basin as a result of the continuous inflow of

ethno-linguistically related peoples. These peoples were designated

in the 19th c. as Turanians, and the Sumerians, Scythians, Huns,

Avars and Magyars were all considered to belong to this ethno-

linguistic group. 



     Presently there are still many misconceptions concerning the

Turanian peoples: it is still widely believed, erroneously, that

the Scythians were an Indo-European people, that the Huns and Avars

were Turkic-speaking peoples of Mongolian race or origin, and that

the Magyars were a mixture of Finnic and Turkic elements. These

misconceptions originate from an inaccurate historical perspective

which failed to recognize the existence of a separate Turanian

entity amidst the multi-ethnic conglomerates of the Scythians,

Huns, Avars, and Magyars, whose empires consisted of tribal

federations which included various other ethnic groups: Indo-

Europeans, as well as Uralic and Altaic peoples besides the

dominant Turanian elements. It now seems that this Turanian ethno-

linguistic group to which the Hungarians belong was a distinct

group from which the Uralic and Altaic ethno-linguistic groups

later evolved through a process of ethno-linguistic diffusion and

hybridization. This explanation of the existing ethno-linguistic

affinities between the Hungarians and the Uralic and Altaic groups

would be more in line with the latest findings on this subject. In

light of these findings, it would seem appropriate to re-examine

this question objectively, avoiding the officially imposed

ideological biases which have clouded the issue since the middle of

the 19th c. and still continue to do so today.



 ###

In article >, 
 says...
>
>
>aheringer ) writes:
>> In article >, 
>>  says...
>>>
>>>willy, the canadian pseudo poet and artificial artist wrote:
>>>>Canadians are unable to accept the fact that Canada is a country
>>>>with two nations in it. Two nations. When that fact is accepted
>>>>as fact, then everything else can flow from it. I personally
>>>>oppose seperation.
>>>
>>>Two nations? Which are those two? The algonquins and the anglos? I 
>>>thought the country had a few hundred indian nations in it, who 
consider 
>>>themselves separate. The inuits?
>>>Gabor
>> 
>> Bravo, Gabor.  I shamefacedly admit that I didn't even thought of the 
>> natives, only of us, millions of allophones, who do not want to live 
in a 
>> French ghetto.  
>> Agnes
>
>Who are the "millions of allophones" Agnes? You posted a short while ago 
a
>ludicrous percentage of allophones which is widely divergent from what
>official statistics indicate. What proof do you have of "millions of
>allophones?" 
>
>You are so ignorant Agnes that you shout Bravo to someone who hasn't 
even
>the fundamental knowledge to know that there are no inuits, only Inuit. 
>
>In any event, who is forcing you to live in a French ghetto? And what
>French ghetto are you referring to? In terms of standard of living 
Quebec
>is far more successful than Hungary, which would otherwise be known as a
>Magyar ghetto. You are as insulting to the Francophone community of 
Canada
>as any redneck canuck I have ever met. Quebec is happy that people like
>you move out. You are selfish, self-centred and insensitive to their 
needs
>as a culture, just as you are towards Canada's native people whom you 
give
>no thought towards. If you have any ovaries worth fertility, you might
>have the courage to respond to the facts that I had posted instead of
>hiding behind the trousers of USAmericans. 
>
>
You have more than once called me an ignorant idiot.  I don't like to 
correspond with ignorant idiots.  Why should you?
Agnes

In > Markku Huttu-Hiltunen wrote:

>Murat Kalinyaprak wrote:
>
>> Yes, I have seen both of your comments about 15-16 words
>> altogether. Since I don't speak Finnish, I really can't
>> comment on them. However, a few of your counter arguments
>> gave me the impression that you were splitting hair. Nobody
>> is expecting to find correspondances between current and
>> ancient languages with exact meanings and pronunciations.
>
> IMHO that's (splitting hair) exactly what I did not do: Those
> errors I pointed were major and obvious ones for anyone who
> speaks Finnish like a native. I pointed out that there were
> several other unclear points also, but since taking those
> points up could be considered as hair splitting, I let them be.

Thanks for clarifying your approach. Like I said previously,
I don't speak Finnish and conveyed my observation (also based
on other responses) mildly as just an "impression"...

> Since there were so many errors in the list, that list lost all 
> credibility in my eyes.

I saw a few errors among the Turkish words too. And some of
them were very obvious borrow words that anybody with even
a mediocre knowledge of Turkish could pick out. But I never
got the impression that the list was offered as a complete
and conclusive evidence at all...

> I do not have anything against anyone who would prove exciting
> connections between any languages: On the contrary, that would
> be very interesting. Saying that, at the same time this work
> should be done carefully and sceptically, not driven by blinding
> excitement.

In the original posting, I have not seen any signs of such
"blinding excitement". In fact, it was some of the first
reactions, that came as a response to it, that seemed to be
"blinded" be previous convictions of the responders... And
my reaction was mostly to that. I wouldn't mind seeing some
people taking the list and tearing it apart, one word at a
time... But I like challenging people to substanciate their
spring-loaded and cocky counter-claims, especially if they
derive them from irrelevant stories they read between the
lines (such as the Sun Languages theory, which subsequently
became the title of this thread)...

>>> Case closed, untill someone has something better to present.
>>> MHH
>> 
>> For some of us, the quest has barely begun. If it's already
>> closed for you, then you may retire from the discussion and
>> live happily ever after... :)
>
> If the list in question was the basis of this theory, then
> the case is closed until someone presents something better.

The difference here though, is that you see it as a "case"
while I see it as a "quest"...

> If you want to continue discussing about the matter according
> to that list, of course you may do so. Just remember than then
> your credibility is based on that list.

The thing is, I'm not a linguist and I had never before
seen any of those words, except the Turkish ones. And I
am well aware that I am not in a position to claim
anything beyond saying that I see lots of similarities
between those words... I do however, feel entitled to
argue to the extent of challenging some people's claims
that they could find as many similarities between
Sumerian and some other languages they mentioned. This
is of course a relative argument. The said list may not
good enough, but the fact is, those people have not yet
been able to provide a list "even as bad as that one":)
between Sumerian and other languages they mentioned...

>BTW, I'm hoping living happy regardless of this discussion.

I hope that nothing comes out of that list to change this
either... :)

>MHH

MK

If anyone wants to kill this idiot, I suggest you sent it to 







A flood on their ISP will be enough for them to take action....


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:37:56 GMT,  (DCI) told the
whole world:

>From:  (DCI)
>Newsgroups: alt.test,soc.culture.lebanon,soc.culture.liberia,soc.culture.maghr
eb,soc.culture.magyar,
soc.culture.malagasy,soc.culture.malaysia,soc.culture.mexican,soc.culture.mexic
an.american
,soc.culture.mexico,soc.culture.misc,soc.culture.mongolian,soc.culture.native,s
oc.culture.native.
american,soc.culture.nepal,soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.new-zealand,soc.
culture.nigeria,
soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.pacific-island,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.
palestine,
soc.culture.peru,soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.portuguese,soc.culture.puerto-r
ico,
soc.culture.punjab,soc.culture.quebec,soc.culture.rep-of-georgia,soc.culture.ro
manian,
soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.scottish,soc.culture.singapore,soc.culture.slov
enia,
soc.culture.somolia,soc.culture.south-africa,soc.culture.south-africa.afrikaans
,
soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.spain,soc.culture.sri-lanka,soc.culture.swiss,
soc.culture.syria,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.thai,
soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.ukranian,soc.culture.uruguay
>Subject: impotence solution --> new product --> read if you have problem
>Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:37:56 GMT
>Organization: 
>Reply-To: 
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>The purpose of this posting is to help educate people about 
>possible solutions for impotence problems and a new method
>of treatment.  Since this problem affects 30 million American 
>men alone this is a universal topic and therefore DOES 
>belong in this newsgroup despite any personal opposition 
>certain people might have.  Thank you for your understanding 
>in this matter.   

<whole lot of spamm clipped>


>*** NOTE:  WE DO NOT ACCEPT ANY E-MAIL REPLIES TO
>DISCOURAGE THE PRACTICE OF RUDE AND ABUSIVE
>"FLAMING".  THAT IS WHY NO RETURN ADDRESS HAS 
>BEEN PROVIDED.  ALL THE INFORMATION YOU NEED 
>WILL BE INCLUDED IN YOUR INFORMATION KIT.



--------------
s.t.e.a.l.t.h.
--------------
"What you cannot see will hurt you most"

willy, the canadian pseudo poet and artificial artist wrote:

> You are so ignorant Agnes that you shout Bravo to someone who hasn't even
> the fundamental knowledge to know that there are no inuits, only Inuit.

Well, wheee, that comes from someone who hasn't even the fundamental 
knowledge to post in hungarian in the ng soc.culture.magyar.

Gabor

In article >,  says...
>
>most la'ttam a chicago bulls gyo:zelme't houston csapat ellen!
>angolul azt mondta'k: "The Bullies"
>magyarul to:bessza'm: "kis o:kro"k"
>lehet e mondanni: "o:kro:kcse'k" ???
>
>ve'leme'nyek?

Bocsanat, most latom, hogy kihagytam a k-t a kis-bol.  Szoval, kis bika.

Agnes
>
>ja'nos
>
>
>
>--

In article >,  says...
>
>most la'ttam a chicago bulls gyo:zelme't houston csapat ellen!
>angolul azt mondta'k: "The Bullies"
>magyarul to:bessza'm: "kis o:kro"k"
>lehet e mondanni: "o:kro:kcse'k" ???
>
>ve'leme'nyek?


Lehet.  De a "bull" as nem okor, hanem bika.  Az okor az ox.  Hanem, azt 
nem mondjak, hogy bikacskak - az is bika.  

Agnes





>
>ja'nos
>
>
>
>--

aheringer wrote:
> 
> In article >,  says...
> >
> >most la'ttam a chicago bulls gyo:zelme't houston csapat ellen!
> >angolul azt mondta'k: "The Bullies"
> >magyarul to:bessza'm: "kis o:kro"k"
> >lehet e mondanni: "o:kro:kcse'k" ???
> >
> >ve'leme'nyek?
> 
> Bocsanat, most latom, hogy kihagytam a k-t a kis-bol.  Szoval, kis bika.
> 
> Agnes
> >
> >ja'nos
> >
> >
> >
> >--

Agnes, ebben az esetben 'kis bika' fiatal bikat jelent
es nem egyet ami csak nem nagy, peldaul mint  egy 'midget' bika?

                              Mark

willy, the canadian pseudo poet and artificial artist wrote:
> 
> aheringer ) writes:
> > In article >,
> >  says...
> >>willy, the canadian pseudo poet and artificial artist wrote:
> >>>Canadians are unable to accept the fact that Canada is a country
> >>>with two nations in it. Two nations. When that fact is accepted
> >>>as fact, then everything else can flow from it. I personally
> >>>oppose seperation.
> >>
> >>Two nations? Which are those two?
> 
> USAmericans are notoriously ignorant of Canadian affairs. If you don't
> know the answer to those questions, you are case in point.

Which are the unique two nations that Canada consists of? You still did not 
answer.
 
> >>The algonquins and the anglos? I
> >>thought the country had a few hundred indian nations in it, who consider
> >>themselves separate.
> 
> Care to name those nations?

Just one, for sport:

From: http://schoolnet2.carleton.ca/english/ext/aboriginal/occc/
===
 Treaty 9 was signed in 1905-06 by the Canadian and Ontario governments 
and the Cree-Ojibway Nations of what is now known as northern Ontario. 
Adhesions were made in 1929 and 1930. Treaty No. 5 was signed in 1875 
by the Canadian government and the Saulteaux-Cree Nations of what is now 
northern Ontario and Manitoba. 

Those treaty bands within Ontario are also part of Nishnawbe-Aski
Nation. Grand Council Treaty No. 9 was formed in February 1973, and in 
1981 the name was changed to Nishnawbe-Aski Nation to represent the 
social, political and economic aspirations of Nishnawbe-Aski Nation 
people. All First Nations located in 50 communities are represented by the 
Nishnawbe-Aski Nation. 

The people of the Treaty 9 area are known as the Nishnawbe-Aski. The
name is based on a principle which is sacred to our people: the notion of the
people and the land, especially the relation between them in our languages,
"Nishnawbe-Aski". This concept is our central self-reliance for our 
people. 
===
So does the Cree nation constitute part of the anglo or french nation? Or 
something separate? 

I asked a genuine question, but you're such a hypocrite, you can't even 
answer it. I was/am genuinely curious. Maybe soc.culture.canada can give 
me an answer, since you can't.

> Perhaps Gabor can tell us the proportions of the native nations and list

I think the native population of Canada is around 3%. 

> those that want to seperate. I think not. None of you are interested in an
> exchange of information on this matter. You are simply a mutual support
> system spreading misinformation on this subject matter.

Sheesh, you can't even read. Read my typing, above:
"who consider themselves separate."
I did not write 
"that want to separate".

Those two are not necessarily the same.

You aren't interested in answering my question, just in putting me down.

Up yours,

Gabor

Cs rd s Dance Company, Celebrating the Dances, Songs and Music of the
Hungarian People, presents,

"A Celebration of Tradition!"

an evening including a colorful live performance of Cs rd s with
traditional music and costumes, followed by a silent auction, ethnic
foods, international dancing and "t nch z!"

SATURDAY FEBRUARY 8, 1997 AT 7:30PM 
WEST SIDE HUNGARIAN REFORMED CHURCH - CALVIN HALL
15300 PURITAS AVE.

$15 PER PERSON - $25 PER COUPLE - $100 PER TABLE OF 8

FOR RESERVATIONS E-MAIL CSARDAS AT - 

-ALL PROCEEDS TO BENEFIT CSARDAS DANCE COMPANY-

DCI wrote:
> 
> The purpose of this posting is to help educate people about
> possible solutions for impotence problems and a new method
> of treatment.  Since this problem affects 30 million American
> men alone this is a universal topic and therefore DOES
> belong in this newsgroup despite any personal opposition
> certain people might have.  Thank you for your understanding
> in this matter.
> 
> ***************************************************
> ***************************************************
> WARNING         WARNING         WARNING
> 
> If you are not 18 years of age or older you are not to
> read this material.
> 
> This posting discusses adult topics, in particular the male problem
> of impotence and possible solutions to this problem.
> 
> If you are offended by discussion of topics of a sexual nature you
> are cautioned against reading any further.
> 
> WARNING         WARNING         WARNING
> ***************************************************
> ***************************************************
> 
> If you or your sexual partner experience impotence problems, either
> occasionally or frequently, reading this short message may very well
> change your life for the better.  Even if you're just looking for some
> 
> extra "hardness" you will want to read this info.
> 
> After several years of research and development we are proud to
> announce the availability of a totally new product to aid people with
> impotence problems.  It is called the "Hercules Erection Strap" and is
> unlike any erection aid product you have ever seen for sale.  It is
> the most effective and most comfortable method of transforming partial
> erections, weak erections, and early failure erections into rock hard
> erections like you used to have.
> 
> How does this product work?  Well, it assists in trapping the blood
> within the penis (a natural function) by applying very firm yet
> comfortable continuous pressure where you need it most - at the base
> of the penis along the top edge and the both sides.  The strap is worn
> around the upper portion of the penis and around the waist and is
> totally adjustable to any individual's penis size, weight, and
> pressure preferences.
> 
> But don't make the very big mistake of thinking this is just another
> cock ring or other type of constriction device that blocks blood flow
> because it is not like those pain inducing devices.  Unlike those,
> this strap does not completely block off  the blood flow which makes
> it much more comfortable to wear because the pressure doesn't continue
> to build endlessly.  It does not apply pressure to the bottom of the
> penis which would tend to block off ejaculation.  The strap can also
> be used with a condom, plus it is lightweight, portable and fairly
> discreet.  Its soft cotton and nylon construction make it infinitely
> more comfortable than some hard plastic or metal "cock ring" device.
> You and your partner will definitely appreciate the comfort.
> 
> This product was developed over a period of more than two years by a
> man who himself suffered from impotence problems.  This individual
> tried every cock ring, erection cream and other erection aid known
> (except surgery) and wasn't satisfied with any of them - so he created
> his own solution.  That creation was the prototype which eventually
> became the Hercules Erection Strap which is now available to the
> public exclusively through mail order at the present time.  We
> strongly believe it is the best erection aid on the market and WE ARE
> WILLING TO GUARANTEE IT OR YOUR MONEY BACK.
> 
> You heard right, if you are not satisfied you can send it back for a
> full refund.  No other erection aid on the market will make that
> guarantee.
> 
> But we do not claim that it will work for everyone in all cases and
> that is why we want to give you a money back guarantee.  This way
> everyone can try it to see if it helps them without taking any
> financial risk.
> 
> We believe the strap will work for anyone who is capable of having at
> least some sort of erection, even if is only a weak erection for a
> very short period of time.  The Hercules Erection Strap will help
> transform a weak erection for a short period of time into a strong one
> for a longer period of time.
> 
> However this product will not likely help those people who are
> incapable of producing any erection whatsoever at any time.  Nothing
> short of surgery will probably help in those cases.
> 
> But the vast majority of people will see great benefits with this
> product.  Once you try it you will never want to be without it again.
> Even those who usually have no problems either than occasional
> failure will want this strap for those times when failure occurs.
> 
> We are not asking you to pay for the product at this time.  Instead,
> we would like to mail you more information about the Hercules Erection
> Strap that includes some diagrams which illustrate exactly how it
> works, why it is so superior to any other erection aid on the market,
> and more information about the probability of it working in your
> individual situation.  And remember we offer a full money back
> guarantee if you eventually choose to purchase the Hercules Erection
> Strap.
> 
> To help cover the cost of our postage and materials we ask that you
> send your name and mailing address along with $1 in either
> US or Canadian funds ($2 for overseas customers) to the address below:
> 
> DCI Company,  Dept 1
> P.O. Box  59141
> RPO Westwood Mall
> Mississauga, Ontario
> Canada
> L4T 4J1
> 
> Please note the postage rate for a letter from the USA to Canada
> can be up to 52 cents.  Make sure you use enough postage.
> 
> All information will be mailed to you in a plain envelope with
> absolutely no clue as to the contents.  We know this is a very
> sensitive issue and will always protect your privacy.
> 
> Thank you for your time and we look forward to helping you make an
> improvement in your life.
> 
> *** NOTE:  WE DO NOT ACCEPT ANY E-MAIL REPLIES TO
> DISCOURAGE THE PRACTICE OF RUDE AND ABUSIVE
> "FLAMING".  THAT IS WHY NO RETURN ADDRESS HAS
> BEEN PROVIDED.  ALL THE INFORMATION YOU NEED
> WILL BE INCLUDED IN YOUR INFORMATION KIT.

For the attention of Umberto Gui and Nanthi please

Hi, 

Could anyone tell me where this Greencard Lottery form can be obtained,
What is the address to send to,
and what are the chances for a Hungarian to get it?

Thanks in advance for answering my questions.

Hedi Hegyi

Please fill in your information in the following sheet, and send it back
to us.  You may print it out and send by mail.  The mailing address is:

Yoshimi Masuo
3459 Lake Austin blvd.  Apt. D
Austin, Texas 78703

e-mail address is:




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* We will try to accommodate everybody who want to stay with us.  We will
let you know if we can provide a room as soon as possible.  If we could not
have enough room to offer, please understand it and reserve a room in motel
or hotel.

* Please return this form by January 25th.  Thank you!

In article >, nanayakkara  > wrote:
>DCI wrote:
>> 
>> The purpose of this posting is to help educate people about
>> possible solutions for impotence problems and a new method
>> of treatment.  Since this problem affects 30 million American
>> men alone this is a universal topic and therefore DOES

Ah yes, that explains a lot.

Laurence

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Date: 13 Jan 97 04:19:54 GMT
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In article >, 
 says...
>willy, the canadian pseudo poet and artificial artist wrote:
>> You are so ignorant Agnes that you shout Bravo to someone who hasn't even
>> the fundamental knowledge to know that there are no inuits, only Inuit.
>Well, wheee, that comes from someone who hasn't even the fundamental 
>knowledge to post in hungarian in the ng soc.culture.magyar.
>Gabor

I respond in English to English postings.
You respond to my English postings in English.
Agnes responds to USAmericans who don't know what they are talking about 
insofar as the Inuit and other Canadian things are concerned. You certainly 
ain't shy about displaying your ignorance here, and you ain't shy to shine 
on your ignorance in alt.support.shyness.hosers. ;->