In article >,  says...
>
>aheringer wrote:
>> 
>> In article >,  says...
>> >
>> >most la'ttam a chicago bulls gyo:zelme't houston csapat ellen!
>> >angolul azt mondta'k: "The Bullies"
>> >magyarul to:bessza'm: "kis o:kro"k"
>> >lehet e mondanni: "o:kro:kcse'k" ???
>> >
>> >ve'leme'nyek?
>> 
>> Bocsanat, most latom, hogy kihagytam a k-t a kis-bol.  Szoval, kis 
bika.
>> 
>> Agnes
>> >
>> >ja'nos
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >--
>
>Agnes, ebben az esetben 'kis bika' fiatal bikat jelent
>es nem egyet ami csak nem nagy, peldaul mint  egy 'midget' bika?
>
>                              Mark


Igaza van, Mark.  En csak azt akartam mondani, hogy okrocskekrol olvastam 
mar a nepmesekben, de bikacskakrol meg nem, azaz, nem hasznaljak.  De 
igaz, ebben az esetben fiatal bikakrol beszelnek.  Agnes

Does anyone know if a computer program exists for the Hungarian language
as it does for Spanish?  Etelka

In article >,  says...

:...
:It's seems as though the original writer didn't know all the
:languages he was comparing and used everyday dictionaries
:to look up words. The Turkish words given had also some
:mismatches and borrow words among them. But a few readers
:who knew Turkish (including myself) offered corrections and

let me put a disclaimer on my "improvements". I was merely going along
with the fairly loose approach given by the list, I didn't claim I
was endorsing all the claims made by the poster.

:improvements to the list. If a Sumerian word's meaning was

:>Case closed, untill someone has something better to present.
:>MHH
:
:For some of us, the quest has barely begun. If it's already
:closed for you, then you may retire from the discussion and
:live happily ever after... :)


I would say the case is closed that the list doesn't prove
what it set out to do.

....

:My comment was about people picking out the "father" word
:and going wild with it to discharge whatever they were

nobody was going wild. 

:holding in their chests ("Sun Languages Theory" and all
:that irrelevant garbage...)

even if the poster's claim is false, a discussion on why some
people feel the need to pursue such claims is an interesting
topic in itself.

:
:>Use a more accurate list next time.
:
:It wasn't my idea to begin with but I will do my best to
:contribute to it whatever I can... With other interested
:people doing the same, the list may get more accurate in
:time. If only you can wait for it... :)

provided there is substance behind it.
it is not enough to present a few similarities,
it becomes intersting only if an explanation
other than chance lies behind it. even if there is
a "relation," one must also explain what this
relation is. borrowing or genetic relationship? what
time periods did these take place? relations with other
language groups? etc.

:>>"Are there, or are there not similarities between 
:>>"the Sumerian and Finnish, Hungarian, Turkish and
:>>"Mongolian words in the list that was posted...?"
:>
:>No. Which of course is competely irrelevant.
:
:Then, would you mind telling us why did you bother to involve
:yourself with an irrelevant subject...? :)

the examples and methodology of the list may be seriously
flawed and thus irrelavant, but the discussion, even with
a negative conclusion in the end, may not be.

:
:>[snip]
:>>"Are there, or are there not similarities between 
:>>"the Sumerian and Finnish, Hungarian, Turkish and
:>>"Mongolian words in the list that was posted...?"
:>
:>Yes.
:
:Thank you, you made my day... :)

however, the list does not prove a genetic relationship
between uralic, altaic and sumerian.

:
:>>"If there are some similarities, can you find and
:>>"demostrate equal amounts of similarities between
:>>"Sumerian and German, Spanish, Zulu, Cherokee,
:>>"Andes and Kurdish (as you claimed)...?"
:>
:>What would this prove?
:
:We should really ask that from the person who brought those
:up... Obviously, he brought them up to at least "disprove"
:something. As far as the word list that has been the subject
:of discussion here, I would say that it could possibly "prove"
:(or "disprove":) that Ural-Altaic languages have more of those

"ural-altaic" has yet to be proven. at this point one should speak of uralic 
and altaic seperatly. also one has to come up
with a model: at what time period did this unity occur or at 
what level (how close) is the relationship. 

:similarities than these languages he mentioned...
:>Murat Kalinyaprak wrote:
:>
:>> "Are there, or are there not similarities between
:>> "the Sumerian and Finnish, Hungarian, Turkish and
:>> "Mongolian words in the list that was posted...?"
:>
:>       sure.. they're some surface similarities...
:
:This could possibly be a start, couldn't it...?
:
:>       however, surface similarities do *not* prove/solidify genetic
:>relatedness. Here's a case in using somethign simple, like numbers
:>(other linguists, please bear with...):
:
:Go ahead, knock yourself off... We are used to being patronized
:by "linguists"... :)

if you don't want to listen that's your problem.

:
:I get the point about "surface similarities" based on borrow
:words, etc... Now, could you please help us in a constructive
:way in weeding out such "surface similarities" in the word-list
:that is being discussed here...?

regular sound changes and historic, genetic data, comparing grammer etc. 


:Are we to say that some people came to this planet, spoke
:Sumerian for a while and then left...? It's only natural

nobody is claiming that.

:that people (amateurs or linguists) will continue to be
:intrigued by this subject and keep searching for answers
:and connections...

all the more reason to be careful and weed out the flukes.

:
:As to "fudging", it is true that there is some of that but
:how does one avoid "fudging" in liguistics anyway...? Even
:when ancient alphabets are decoded, how does one tell with

decoding the alphabet amounts to establishing the sounds.
reconstructions by comparative methods, looking how words
have been borrowed from or into other languages, transcriptions
of words, particularly proper names in other languages help
fine tune one's knowledge of the sounds. one may even get
a clue from ancient texts about the quality of the sounds
from linguistic anectodes. for example: "the sheep made the sound 
beta - eta" from a classical greek text indicates that the
modern pronounciation of that as "vi" did not occur at that
time (the sound "v" would be impossible for sheep to imitate).
for classical arabic, one has the great help of the works of
medieval philologists, so one knows to a very high degree
of accuracy how classical arabic was pronounced.

 deciphering alphabets involves comparing the frequency of symbols
to sounds in known or reconstructed languages, use of bilingual
inscriptions, lists of proper names corresponding to names known
from other sources (best in bilingual inscriptions) etc. are used.
of course, someetimes something of the meaning or the sound
can be guessed from the formof the sign itself and this can
be tested with the rest of the text. for example, an arrow shaped
sign representing the syllable oq in turki runes.

 for the history of the decipherment of sumerian see kramer,
"the sumerians" for a summary. in short first old persian
was deciphered and through bilinguals withs king lists akkadian
was dicepehred which used the sumerian writing system. from akkadian
- sumerian bilinguals sumerian was deciphered.   

:any certainity which sounds existed in an ancient language
:and which signs corresponded to which sounds? (Linguists,

this means decipherment of the alphabet. see above.

:please bear with "amateur" questions like this... :)
:


 what colud be elaborated more in the discussion is the
relation of sumerian to the caucasian languages that are grouped
with the hypothetical caucasian - dene superfamily and thus unrelated, unless 
at very very distant date to the hypothetical nostratic superfamily. I 
believe there is resemblance in the sumerian numeral system to the caucasian 
languages and to basque.

In soc.culture.nordic Markku Huttu-Hiltunen > 
wrote:
: Markku Huttu-Hiltunen wrote:

:  The genetics of the Finns is 75% western European and 25% Asian. 

Bullshit. 25 % are Saami genes.

: A correction: 25% from the east (, I dunno if that's really Asian).

It is actually from the NORTH! From the Saamis who have lived close
and together with the so called Finns THOUSANDS OF YEARS. 

It is strange when Finns forget deep Saami roots. WHY?
There is no Asian genes in the Finns but Saami genes. 
And Saamis are "a race itself" genetically,
very old representing oldest European gene pool.

regards
jami
-- 
#In 1958,The Swedish School Administration repealed directives banning#
 # the speaking of Finnish language in Sweden's schools.However,some #
       # municipalities maintained restrictions until 1968 #

For what it's worth, the *demonstration* (not merely claim but actual, hard
data) of the relationship between Finnish and Hungarian was presented in a
monograph (written in Latin) by a native speaker of Hungarian, a diplomat who
spent time among the Finns.

The monograph was published in 1752.  That is, it pre-dates the well-known
proclamation of the relationship among Sanskrit, Greek, Latin, Germanic, and
Celtic by Sir Wm. Jones by 34 years.  No reputable linguist questions the
relationship.

Mssrs. Hamori and Chong, of course, are free to do as they wish.
-- 
Rich Alderson   You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary
                of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo-
                logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they
                know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning
                as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or
                what not.
                                                --J. R. R. Tolkien,
                               _The Notion Club Papers_

 (TRH TRH) wrote:
> Any studies on the genetic make up of the Mari people?

I read last year about a project if the Academy of Finland,
that might product results also about Maris.
Perhaps somebody can clarify more, if not I try
to give later more information.

Jorma Kyppo
Laukaa
Finland

Press Release
For Immediate Release
Contact:  Michael Vachon
Open Society Institute
(212) 887-0668

OSI-CROATIA UNDER ATTACK

New York-10 January 1997-The Open Society Institute-New York would like 
to
respond to the political attacks and legal accusations leveled against 
the
Open Society Institute-Croatia in recent weeks by the Government and by
the Government-controlled media. 
 The Ministry of Finance formally accused OSI-Croatia and its officers 
of
intentional evasion of taxes.  In addition, the media have reported that
several employees have been criminally indicted on related charges. 

On December 7, President Tudjman publicly accused OSI-Croatia of
undermining the Croatian state and the HDZ.  He accused OSI-Croatia of
infiltrating society by promoting "international" ideas that undermine 
the
Croatian state, of supporting independent media that are critical of the
government, as well as of supporting opposition political organizations. 
In fact, OSI-Croatia does give grants to independent media; it does not
give any money to political parties or to partisan political
organizations.  It confines its activities to educational, cultural, and
humanitarian activities in accordance with its Statute.  Moreover, it
gives a public accounting of all its activities each year. 

OSI-Croatia stands for an open society in Croatia which reflects the 
views
of all its inhabitants, and not just the views of the State; in which 
the
State reflects the views of all its inhabitants and their 
representatives
and not just the view of the President; and in which the media is
independent of the state.  President Tudjman described this as a
"dangerous alien ideology."  We believe that it is a philosophy 
essential
for Croatian democracy. 

On December 12, two OSI-Croatia employees were stopped crossing the 
border
from Slovenia.  $65,000 in cash belonging to OSI-Croatia was confiscated
and the two were detained overnight and interrogated.  They were then
released, but the money was not returned, even though customs officials
have publicly acknowledged that no wrongdoing was committed by bringing
this cash into the country.  To date, the Government has not responded 
to
OSI-Croatia's formal request that this money be returned. 

In the days after the detention of the two employees, OSI-Croatia
cooperated with Croatian investigators, who asked for certain financial
records of the foundation.  OSI-Croatia produced all records that were
requested.  Subsequently, Croatian officials entered the home of an
OSI-Croatia employee without a search warrant and seized additional
documents.  Despite this use of coercion, OSI- Croatia continued to
cooperate with the investigation and provided more documents at the
request of the investigators. 
  These documents outlined the payment of grants, honoraria, and 
employee
compensation. 

OSI-Croatia, as a humanitarian organization, is exempt from taxation by
the Croatian government.  This tax exemption is contained in the 
governing
Statute of OSI-Croatia, which has been approved four times, beginning in
1992, by three ministries of the Croatian government.  Despite this tax
exemption, OSI-Croatia nonetheless paid to the government some taxes in
order to allow its employees to participate in State pension and health
insurance plans. 

On January 7, 1997, OSI-Croatia filed its formal response to the charges
of the Ministry of Finance.  OSI-Croatia denies these charges 
completely. 
Because the employees have not been formally notified of the criminal
indictments or seen their contents, i t is impossible for us to comment 
on
them in any detail.  We consider the release of the criminal indictments
through the media completely inappropriate and an indication of the
political nature of the accusations.  OSI- Croatia will fight these
charges w hen it receives them.  In the meantime, OSI-Croatia will
continue to work normally, supporting deserving programs and individuals
regardless of their political, religious, or ideological affiliations, 
and
regardless of their national, racial, or ethnic background.  OSI-New 
York
will support OSI-Croatia in its efforts. 

- 30 -
..

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George Kovacs ) writes:
> In article > "MACKO" <macko@ix
.netcom.com> writes:
> 
>> I NEVER SAW YOUR HELP, YOUR ANSWERS ON THOSE NEWSGROUPS.
> 
> I don't read those, and I did not post to those.
> 
>>WHERE ARE YOU WHEN IT'S TIME TO HELP PEOPLE?
> 
> Where I can help. Nor where I can take advantage.
> 
>> Looks like you can criticize people instead of doing something for them.
> 
> Any facts supporing theory?

Yep. Of course I've never done anything for you. I've consistently
criticized you. However, insofar as regards me, you have conducted a 100%
campaign to critize, so there is this little fact to support his theory.
Generally your hands are quite clean, but there is that matter of a bit of
dirt under the nail of your little pinkie. Don't pose so innocent.
Otherwise, you have put MACKO right where he deserves it - my
acknowledgements.

>>What do you mean by scam? What did I claim that is not true? What did I
>>advertise, that nobody else can benefit but me? I never claimed that
>>applying for the DV-98 is not free. I never claimed that I could increase
>>anybody's chances. 
> 
> Nobody ever claimed that you claimed any of the above. Fact is: people who ca
n 
> read English and follow SIMPLE instructions, do not need any middleman. Peopl
e 
> who can not, are very unlikey to read this newsgroup in the first place.
> 
>>I only claim, that I can prepare an acceptable application form, that will 
>>not be denied like those last year. (1.9million>because of improper filing) 
> 
> Big deal. Probably most of the readers of this ng can do that, and are willin
g 
> to do so FREE. Is that your problem? If it is, it's going to be tough to solv
e 
> it.
> 
>>Kara Larson > wrote in article
>>> PLEASE, PLEASE don't pay anyone to "process" your visa lottery 
>>> application for you. You can send them in directly yourself, it couldn't 
>>> be easier, and its absolutely free!! No one, no matter what they claim, 
>>> can improve your chances of winning a visa!!
>>> 
>>> I work for a non-profit refugee resettlement agency, and every year at 
>>> lottery time scammers spring up like grass to take advantage of green 
>>> card hopefuls. DON'T FALL PREY!!
>>> 
>>> If you need to know how to submit an application, send me an e-mail and 
>>> I'll gladly explain.
> 
>>> Kara Larson
>>> Assistant Director, Communications
>>> Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society
>>> 
> 
> See? Why pay for something offered free of charge? (Great job, Kara!)
> 
>>> > George Kovacs > wrote in article
> 
>>Don't send money to anyone. The Greencard Lottery is free. Paying a lawyer 
>>or agent DOES NOT increase your chences.
> 
> Anyone can find anything in this which is not true?
> GK

aheringer ) writes:
> In article >, 
>  says...
>>
>>willy, the canadian pseudo poet and artificial artist wrote:
>>>Canadians are unable to accept the fact that Canada is a country
>>>with two nations in it. Two nations. When that fact is accepted
>>>as fact, then everything else can flow from it. I personally
>>>oppose seperation.
>>
>>Two nations? Which are those two? The algonquins and the anglos? I 
>>thought the country had a few hundred indian nations in it, who consider 
>>themselves separate. The inuits?
>>Gabor
> 
> Bravo, Gabor.  I shamefacedly admit that I didn't even thought of the 
> natives, only of us, millions of allophones, who do not want to live in a 
> French ghetto.  
> Agnes

Who are the "millions of allophones" Agnes? You posted a short while ago a
ludicrous percentage of allophones which is widely divergent from what
official statistics indicate. What proof do you have of "millions of
allophones?" 

You are so ignorant Agnes that you shout Bravo to someone who hasn't even
the fundamental knowledge to know that there are no inuits, only Inuit. 

In any event, who is forcing you to live in a French ghetto? And what
French ghetto are you referring to? In terms of standard of living Quebec
is far more successful than Hungary, which would otherwise be known as a
Magyar ghetto. You are as insulting to the Francophone community of Canada
as any redneck canuck I have ever met. Quebec is happy that people like
you move out. You are selfish, self-centred and insensitive to their needs
as a culture, just as you are towards Canada's native people whom you give
no thought towards. If you have any ovaries worth fertility, you might
have the courage to respond to the facts that I had posted instead of
hiding behind the trousers of USAmericans.

In article > Peter k Chong > w
rites:

>The problem for me is that, I can't get a hold of many proto-Uralic or 
>Proto-Altaic sources directly since the field of Ural-Altaic linguistics 
>is treated with such apathy. (At least in MHO). Thus I'm left with 
>obtaining lexicons of modern languages (I've found Finnish, Estonian, 
>Magyar, Japanese, Turkish, Azerbaijani, Tatar and Uzbek ones) and only 
>some Sumerian sources. The problem also is that many of the Sumerian 
>sources I can find are written by Deimel (ergo German which I can't 
>understand) so I'm restricted by a linguistic barrier (for now)...

Anyone can order The Uralic Protolanguage: A Comprehensive Reconstruction, by 
Gyula Decsy, 1990, 147 pp.  Cost US$26.00.

Prepaid orders are shipped without additional postage charges to anywhere.  
Send a US check or international money order payable on a US bank to:

Eurolingua
P.O. Box 101
Bloomington, IN 47402-0101

I received the books that I ordered within a month.

A fairly reliable lexicon of the Sumerian vocabulary in English can be found 
at:

http://www.primenet.com/~seagoat/sumerian/

Regards,

John Halloran

Jari Oksanen wrote:
> 
> In article >  (Jarmo Ryyti) w
rites:
 >A nice coincidence:
> >"The Finns come from the south and west". Finnish television news
> >12.1.1997. Scientists Savontaus,Lahermo,Sistonen and Sajantila
> >told about their research.
.... 
> It is remarkable that here Mr Ryyti seems to confess the recent standard view
> that Finns came from the south and west: Finns are an Indo-European colonist
> population who during climatic detoriation came into close contact with
> autochtonous Sámi and adopted their language and culture.
> 
> More technically, the authors Mr Ryyti cites say:
> 
> The genetic relationship between the Finns and the Finnish Saami (Lapps):
> analysis of nuclear DNA and mtDNA.
> Lahermo-P; Sajantila-A; Sistonen-P; Lukka-M; Aula-P; Peltonen-L; Savontaus-ML
> Am-J-Hum-Genet. 1996 Jun; 58(6): 1309-22
....

Found yet one fresh reference:
Proc Natl Acad Sci USA
Vol 93, Number 21 (Oct 1996); 12035-12039

"Paternal and maternal DNA lineages reveal a bottleneck in the founding
of
the Finnish population

Antti Sajantila, Abdel-Halim Salem, Peter Savolainen, Karin Bauer,
Christian
Gierig, Svante Pääbo

ABSTRACT   An analysis of Y-chromosomal haplotypes in several European
populations reveals an almost monomorphic pattern in the Finns, whereas
Y-chromosomal diversity is significantly higher in other populations.
Furthermore, analyses of nucleotide positions in the mitochondrial
control
region that evolve slowly show a decrease in genetic diversity in Finns.
Thus, relatively few men and women have contributed the genetic lineages
that today survive in the Finnish population. This is likely to have
caused
the so-called "Finnish disease heritage"--i.e., the occurrence of
several
genetic diseases in the Finnish population that are rare elsewhere. A
preliminary analysis of the mitochondrial mutations that have
accumulated
subsequent to the bottleneck suggests that it occurred about 4000 years
ago,
presumably when populations using agriculture and animal husbandry
arrived
in Finland."

I went and actually looked at this article. The Finns were, in fact
compared
with the Saami, and little similarity was found. For instance the
"Finnish
disease heritage" is not shared with the Saami.

--
Jarmo Niemi  http://www.utu.fi/~jarnie/

Murat Kalinyaprak wrote:

> In > Markku Huttu-Hiltunen wrote:
> 
> >Murat Kalinyaprak wrote:
> >
> >> "Are there, or are there not similarities between
> >> "the Sumerian and Finnish, Hungarian, Turkish and
> >> "Mongolian words in the list that was posted...?"
> >
> > I suppose you haven't seen mine or Pertti Hietaranta's
> > comments on that list. Those countless errors make that
> > list totally worthless when trying to prove connection
> > between those languages.
> 
> Yes, I have seen both of your comments about 15-16 words
> altogether. Since I don't speak Finnish, I really can't
> comment on them. However, a few of your counter arguments
> gave me the impression that you were splitting hair. Nobody
> is expecting to find correspondances between current and
> ancient languages with exact meanings and pronunciations.

IMHO that's (splitting hair) exactly what I did not do: Those errors I
pointed were major and obvious ones for anyone who speaks Finnish like a
native. I pointed out that there were several other unclear points also,
but since taking those points up could be considered as hair splitting,
I let them be.

It's possible that you could find some ancient Finnish words that are'nt
familiar to me and other Finns, but you have to explain these words and
their source. I'll say it again: Since there were so many errors in the
list, that list lost all credibility in my eyes. Think about it: The
essence of that list was making connections between words, but those
(Finnish) words were mostly false. 

Another thing bothering me in that list was a very obvious ignorance of
Finnish: I would think that if some people are constructing such a
hypothese, they would make sure that people who are real experts of some
language (Finns in Finnish) at least contibutes to that hypothese. Why
not contact linguistic departments in Finnish Universities and ask for
consulting help? Or, you could find very interesting links to research
on Finnish by typing "Ulla-Maija Kulonen" into Alta Vista search.  
 
> I have looked up some of the words you guys questioned in
> an on-line dictionary on the Internet. Some words I found
> seemed like they could be even better matches than the ones
> questioned. But the dictionary gave no information beyond
> indicating whether those words were nouns, verbs, etc.
> Without knowing Finnish, I wouldn't dare base any arguments
> on just the looks of those words. But I have the impression
> that, if some Finnish speakers tried as hard as you have in
> the opposite direction, they could possibly come up with
> even better correspondances.

Perhaps, who knows. Lets make one thing clear here: I do not have
anything against anyone who would prove exciting connections between any
languages: On the contrary, that would be very interesting. Saying that,
at the same time this work should be done carefully and sceptically, not
driven by blinding excitement.

 
> It's seems as though the original writer didn't know all the
> languages he was comparing and used everyday dictionaries
> to look up words. The Turkish words given had also some
> mismatches and borrow words among them. But a few readers
> who knew Turkish (including myself) offered corrections and
> improvements to the list. If a Sumerian word's meaning was
> given as "mind" and one disregards all correspondances that
> may mean "think, remember, momorize, intellect, brain, etc."
> one may conclude that there are no correspondances. But this
> would be unreasonable because one couldn't even translate from
> one current language into another with the same restrictions.

That's true, but at the same time there has to be some limits how far
this compairing can go.
 
> >Case closed, untill someone has something better to present.
> >MHH
> 
> For some of us, the quest has barely begun. If it's already
> closed for you, then you may retire from the discussion and
> live happily ever after... :)

If the list in question was the basis of this theory, then the case is
closed until someone presents something better. If you want to continue
discussing about the matter according to that list, of course you may do
so. Just remember than then your credibility is based on that list.

BTW, I'm hoping living happy regardless of this discussion.


MHH

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Jarmo Ryyti wrote:
> 
> In soc.culture.nordic Markku Huttu-Hiltunen 
> wrote:
> : Markku Huttu-Hiltunen wrote:
> 
> :  The genetics of the Finns is 75% western European and 25% Asian.
> 
> Bullshit. 25 % are Saami genes.
> 
> : A correction: 25% from the east (, I dunno if that's really Asian).
> 
> It is actually from the NORTH! From the Saamis who have lived close
> and together with the so called Finns THOUSANDS OF YEARS.


Here is a very short translation of some parts from an article, made by
Irma Stenbäck according to interview of assistant professor Ulla-Maria
Kulonen.

Helsingin Sanomat January 10. 1997:

The origin of the (Finnish) language clarifed in Science Days: 

HALF OF THE LANGAGES OF THE HUMAN RACE THREATENED OF EXTINCTION

....

Gene research has proved that the major part of people in the world is
closer related to each other through genes than previously thought.  ...

The origin of the Finnish language has according to comparative
linguistic research noted to diverge from Uralic basic language 8 000
years ago. 

Though our langage came from east, genetically we are, according to
Kulonen, europeans.

"Researching blood groups gives a result that 75% of the origin of Finns
is western and 25% eastern. The latest DNA analysis confirm this result
of the origin of the Finns."  

Jarmo: I would advise you to think twice before announcing "Bullshit".

Now, do we take Jarmo's expertice on this matter as superior compaired
to scientists ( , or should we re-think this Jarmo's announcement;
perhaps that has some relevance to Jarmo's comments).

 
> It is strange when Finns forget deep Saami roots. WHY?
> There is no Asian genes in the Finns but Saami genes.
> And Saamis are "a race itself" genetically,
> very old representing oldest European gene pool.

Any reference? Or, is this again the same thing connected to your
attatchment to bulls?

BTW, Jarmo: You might first read that correction before continuing the
whole story according to that corrected statement (which was corrected
before you wrote about it).

MHH

Jarmo Ryyti wrote:
> 
> In soc.culture.nordic Markku Huttu-Hiltunen 

> : > It is actually from the NORTH! From the Saamis who have lived close
> : > and together with the so called Finns THOUSANDS OF YEARS.
> 
> : Here is a very short translation of some parts from an article, made by
> : Irma Stenbäck according to interview of assistant professor Ulla-Maria
> : Kulonen.
> 
> : Helsingin Sanomat January 10. 1997:
> 
> : The origin of the (Finnish) language clarifed in Science Days:
> 
> : HALF OF THE LANGAGES OF THE HUMAN RACE THREATENED OF EXTINCTION
> 
> : ...
> 
> : Gene research has proved that the major part of people in the world is
> : closer related to each other through genes than previously thought.  ...
> 
> : The origin of the Finnish language has according to comparative
> : linguistic research noted to diverge from Uralic basic language 8 000
> : years ago.
> 
> : Though our langage came from east, genetically we are, according to
> : Kulonen, europeans.
> 
> : "Researching blood groups gives a result that 75% of the origin of Finns
> : is western and 25% eastern. The latest DNA analysis confirm this result
> : of the origin of the Finns."

> I write it here:
> Congressus Octavus Internationalis Fenno-Ugristum Jyva"skyla"
> 10.-15.9.1995 Summaria acroasium in sectionibus et symposiis
> factarum:
 
I recall that "the revolution" on this matter occurred 1995 or -96, and
that was the first time it was proven that language and genetic heritage
are two different things. At least 50 years it was thought at schools
that Finns come from Ural.

I would challenge that your information  (50% european 50% sami) either
outdated or false: If that would be true, do you think that assistant
professor of the university of Helsinki would intentionally give that
statement (quoted earlier) in Jan 10. 1997? The answer is simple: Of
course not.

We are talking about the Finns, not Sami people, so I erased most
off-the-topic stories.
 
> A comment: the exchange has had two way direction, not only
> from "the Finns" and Indo-Europeans into the Saamis but from
> the Saamis into the Finns and Indo-Europeans. When the Finns
> and Saami have allways interacted very closely it is clear
> that Finnish (and Karelians) have a lot of Saami genes.

The source here is Jarmo. Not qualified as a reliable source.

Pekka Sammallahti Univ. of Oulu refers:

Refers what? When? Any document?

> "On other hand, it has been estimated that more than half
> > of the genetics of the Finns come from the south, i.e.
> from the Indo-European populations of Central-Europe
> and the rest is Fenno-Ugric heritage. When one compares
> Finnish gene frequencies with those of the Saami
> and the Swedes as presendted Aldur W. Erikson (Eriksson 1984)
> the Finnsish frequencies normally fall between these
> the two, and it is an obvious conclusion that this is the result
> of the same strong influence of Germanic on the Pre-Finnic
> which was also posited by historical linguistics."

As said earlier: This is either outdated or false.

> (Comment:Finns are Indo-Europeanized Saamis)

That's your comment, Jarmo.

> Valeri Petrusev,Univ. of Yoshkar-Ola, Mari El
> also points out:
> 
> "Uralic nations are amongst the oldest, most archaic groups
> of Russian population"
> 
> In brief: Uralic peoples, that is Finno-Ugrians are a very
> old "European" population who has inhabited the northern
> parts of Europe, what we call now Scandinavia and Russia
> long before the Indo-European expansion.

Valeri can have said whatever. The fact remainds that hardly scientists
of today are unaware of previous claims or hypothesis. (I can't help
making a comment: Valeri's geographic knowledge is not sparkling.)
 
> The genes now called "Asian" are in fact original "European
> genes" and those people who are now called "Indo-Europeans"
> are as much truly "European" as the present Indo-European
> population of "America" is "American".

Is that Valeri or Jarmo? 

I'v heard these claims before, weather that's true or not is not our
topic here. 
 
> Seppo Lallukka writes about assimilation process of the
> Uralic peoples of Europe for instance.HU.

Who is Seppo Lallukka? What document? What date?
 
> The genetic relationsships between the Finns and the Saamis.
> Savontaus,Turku. Lahermo,Turku. Sistonen Helsinki. Sajantila
> Munich also have in their studies made a conclusion
> that Saami and Finnish/Karelian gene pool have similarites
> compared to Indo-Europeans. I attended on her lecture and
> remember it quite well.

I can't get it clear according to above: Whose lecture you attended?
What is the name-place list above? Dates?

> One can say in brief: Those people who are called
> in ourdays "Finns" are Saamis who adopted agriculture
> from the Indo-Europeans. And present day Saamis are
> "Finns" who continued old occupations. That had
> a strong effect on the language,too.

Even without your passive form, I would have quessed the source: Jarmo.

> I cannot copy entire seminars but I have material enough not to
> believe any folkloristic tales about "Finns" who arrived
> from Volga. Or "Finns" who have "Asian" genes.

I haven't made those claims.


 It is folklore
> and pleases only later arrived occupants like Russians,Swedes
> and Norwegians who liked on the political reasons to cultivate
> such beliefs. Comp. Estonia and SU/Russian policy of Estonia.

Jarmo, are you sure your story is not influenced the same way? 
(I do not want to go too personal here, but have you seriously
thought about your motives?) 

 
> The fact is that the Finns, Estonians,Karelians have always lived
> in Northern-Europe together with other Fenno-Ugric nations
> like Nenets,Komis,Saamis and the Indo-European expansion
> has extint many of the Pre-Uralic peoples during the process.

What an angle! "The good, original, people so old that they are the
people of no ancestors, where intruded by evel indo-europeans who wrote
the history according to their political views..." That seems to be your
message, Jarmo.

 
> Those nations who "won" Finnic nations like Russians and Swedes
> have then later written their history from their point of view
> the way it pleases them best. Comp. American history from
> the Indo-European point of view vs. natives of America.
 
I think you're childish, and more importantly wrong. You make these
conceptions up and you are driven by some strange battle where you'd
like to prove that ultimately yours heretage is better than
"indo-europeans".

If one wants to really find out these things (the origin of some people
or some language) there's no room for a personal agenda (like yours).

I have no doupt that you might get together a list of quotes that seem
to support your claims, but I prefer reading what todays (not -95 or
earlier) scientists have to say about this subject. 


> --
> #In 1958,The Swedish School Administration repealed directives banning#
>  # the speaking of Finnish language in Sweden's schools.However,some #
>        # municipalities maintained restrictions until 1968 #


I see, you are having a mission against the Sweeds and other
indo-europeans (which genetically we Finns are too - I hope you aren't
having a mission against yourself).


MHH