Well, very interesting, but unfortunately for Mr. Sarovic, not entirely
true.  A nice long essay, though. 

Yugoslavia did not fall apart because of the "unilateral declaration" of
Slovenia or any other Republic.  Yugoslavia fell apart primarily
 
1. because it was and still is in its present form an artificial entity
that was created by Western powers. It did not develop from a natural
historical process; and

2. Serbia strived for hegemony over all republics in Yugoslavia.  The
Republics and Autonomous Regions (Vajdasag [Vojvodina] included) had
enough of strong Serbian control over the nation and wanted a more
confederate republic.  The Serbs in reaction began a propaganda campaign
in an effort to control at least 4 votes (out of eight) in the federal
presidency, thus preventing any real discussion on an alternative future
form of government.  

I apologize for the length of the following, but this article is
appropriate.  The article can be seen including in its entirety on my
page seen following this entry.
_____________________________________________

The Conflict in the Former Yugoslavia 
and Autonomous Region of Vojvodina, 
and the Need for a More Coherent 
U.S. Foreign Policy

Briefing presented to the Stanton Group, Washington, D.C., November 11,
1993 


Faults in Western Analysis 

American and Western foreign policy toward Central and Eastern Europe
suffers from a fundamental misunderstanding of the region's complex
history. There are two primary reasons for this: (1) The study of
Central and Eastern Europe in the West was tied to Soviet Studies. As a
result, the conflicts within the countries of Central and Eastern Europe
were seen as less important to U.S. foreign policy given the Cold War
and the East-West confrontation; and (2) Central and Eastern European
history is often studied in three periods, pre-World War I, the Peace
Years (between the wars), and Post-World War II, rather than as a
continuous process of history. 

This division of history leads to poor analysis because it dismisses
over a thousand years of historical development and nation building. The
students of more modern Central and Eastern European affairs tend to
view the region as a constant, with the countries existing after World
War I and II as historical nations. 

Therefore, the outbreak of the bitter ethnic conflict in the former
Yugoslavia caught many off guard. Historically, however, many of these
ethnic groups were often at odds due to differences in religion,
culture, and economic and political development. It is therefore simply
logical that these groups did not form a single historical nation on
their own. It was Western influence that led to the formation of post
World War I "nations" such as Yugoslavia. Without a correct historical
analysis and thorough understanding of the region, development of a
coherent and consistent U.S. foreign policy is made more difficult. 

U.S. Policy 

Following World War I and II, U.S. and Western policy makers and
administrations did recognize that the new borders agreed upon in
Central and Eastern Europe were far less than perfect and recommended
revision. The U.S., however washed its hands of the problem and no
longer pursued its recommendations. Though much has been written about
the ethnic conflicts and minority problems in Central and Eastern
Europe, there has been little talk about the need for a reevaluation of
borders. On his visit, George Bush said that the U.S. did not support
the dissolution of Yugoslavia. But four years of a Milosevic communist
regime and Serbian nationalist campaign led to bloody war and the
complete dissolution of Yugoslavia. 

Roots of Current Conflict in Yugoslavia

Yugoslavia was created after WW I and was a complicated combination of
peoples, religions, and cultures. Developed and predominantly Roman
Catholic regions such as Slovenia (formerly part of the Austrian Empire)
and Croatia (formerly part of Hungary) were joined with less developed
and Eastern Orthodox Serbia. These regions were then joined with even
more poorly developed Montenegro, Macedonia, Kosovo and
Bosnia-Hercegovina, which all have large Muslim and Eastern Orthodox
populations. To further complicate the situation, Serbian claims to
parts of Southern Hungary (Vojvodina) were also granted and incorporated
into this new country. After World War II, the nationalities of
Yugoslavia sought more autonomy from Belgrade. Yugoslavia was then
divided into 6 republics and 2 provinces with a collective, Federal
Presidency. Each republic and province had a president and
representation in a Federal Assembly. 

The Nationalist Campaign

In 1986, with the ascension of the Milosevic regime, Serbian media were
placed under state control. Milosevic, as President of the Communist
Party, replaced prominent government officials with his supporters. The
new state media started a nationalist propaganda machine to intimidate
other Serbs into supporting the new regime and its policies. One method
of gaining Serb support was through the spread of unwarranted fear of
non-Serbian minorities. Unfair housing and other practices against Serbs
and favoring Albanians in Kosovo were used by Belgrade to support claims
of a larger and unfounded conspiracy: Croats in Croatia wanted to kick
Serbs out of their homes and Hungarians in Vojvodina wanted to secede
and again become part of Hungary. 

The Milosevic regime wanted a much tighter Yugoslav federation
controlled by Belgrade. One way to gain control of any assembly or
voting body is to control its votes. Belgrade turned to a more
deliberate scheme to consolidate its power and control and first focused
its attention on the Autonomous Province of Vojvodina. 

Vojvodina 

In 1988, Belgrade planned and staged series of mass demonstrations in
Vojvodina, culminating in a 200,000 strong demonstration in Novi Sad
(Ujvidék) in front of the Provincial Assembly in which Serbs from Kosovo
were brought in to denounce the largely anti-Milosevic Provincial
Assembly. On October 6, 1988, under enormous pressure and intimidation,
the provincial leadership collectively resigned their positions, Serbs,
Croats, and Hungarians alike, rather than call out the police to
disperse the crowds and risk bloody confrontation. State propaganda
succeeded in convincing Vojvodina Serbs to elect pro-Milosevic Serbs to
a new Provincial Assembly. The new provincial government soon fired all
editors and senior officials of television, newspapers, and radio.
Belgrade's efforts were extremely successful. By 1989, any real autonomy
was eliminated in Vojvodina. Milosevic was now able to focus on
Montenegro and Kosovo. 

Montenegro and Kosovo 

Belgrade followed the same formula in the Republic of Montenegro. Here,
the Montenegrin Assembly first used police to disperse the
demonstrators. Belgrade and the state media harshly criticized the
action and demonstrations continued. The Assembly eventually gave in to
the pressure, and the provincial leadership resigned. A similar, but
more drastic action took place in the Autonomous Province of Kosovo. The
Serbian Assembly in Belgrade, in direct violation of the federal
constitution, abolished the Kosovo Provincial Assembly, refused to meet
with Assembly representatives, and used force to prevent its
reorganization. Again, autonomy was lost. 

Slovenia 

The same scheme was attempted in Slovenia. Slovenians, however, were not
caught unaware. Slovenia used its police to seal its borders and turned
back all Serbs. This policy successfully prevented any planned
demonstrations. In December 1990, Slovenia held a national referendum on
independence that yielded an interesting outcome. Slovenes did not vote
for outright independence, but rather for a resolution of the impasse
with Belgrade and perhaps the creation of a looser federation. The
Slovene action prompted 6 months of intense negotiations. Milosevic
would not concede. After his actions in Vojvodina, Kosovo, and
Montenegro, he now controlled four votes (50%) in the Federal Presidency
and a majority in the Federal Assembly and used these votes to prevent
any reorganization of the republic. He set the stage for a bloody
tragedy. 

Croatia and Bosnia-Hercegovina 

Croatia saw that negotiation was futile and also declared independence.
Belgrade refused to accept this declaration; war soon followed. Serbia
still occupies parts of Croatia. Bosnia-Hercegovina, patient throughout
the Serb-Croat war, also found that it could not gain independence
without bloodshed. The Bush and Clinton administrations both sent mixed
signals as to what our role would become should the Serbs continue their
aggressive policies. We talked tough and did nothing. This waffling and
policy of noninterference may have emboldened the Serbs to resist the
dissolution of Yugoslavia by any means they felt necessary, including
force. This may also serve to encourage further Serbian aggression and
the pursuit of similar positions by other nations with similar ethnic
frictions. 

Roots of Conflict in Vojvodina

The Western media have virtually ignored the region of Vojvodina. Here,
however, the stakes are the highest for the United States. As discussed
earlier, Vojvodina is a formerly autonomous region situated on the
borders of
Southeastern Hungary, the Northeastern tip of Croatia, Southwestern
Rumania, and Northern Serbia. After forcing
changes in 1989 and 1990 to the Vojvodina constitution, Serbia declared
a new two-member Federation of Yugoslavia that included
Serbian-controlled Montenegro in 1992. They then adopted a new federal
constitution that further weakened the provincial governments and took
away the Vojvodina Provincial Assembly's power to make laws or levy
taxes. The provincial government is now reliant on Belgrade for all
revenues. Vojvodina is also without a provincial constitution. 

Ethnic Cleansing

Little has been written about the "quiet" ethnic cleansing taking place
in Vojvodina. The Serbians have been very successful in keeping their
actions quiet because most in the West, especially the media, show a
profound lack of understanding of and interest in the situation. It is
as if this region and this potentially explosive problem do not exist.
When the media, for example, show maps of the region in print or on
television, they clearly show the borders of other former provinces and
republics, but in most cases neglect to show the borders of Vojvodina,
which happens to be also on the border of Bosnia. 

The Treaty of Trianon [which granted Vojvodina to Serbia] stipulated
that minorities and their institutions beprotected, such as schools and
their school boards, native language instruction, churches, and the
press. The Serbian government, however, has been replacing previously
elected school board members of Hungarian, Croat, or other ethnic
descent with Serbs, and is thus able to alter curriculum and language
instruction. 

There are a few remaining free and independent newspapers in "Greater
Serbia." There are still a few surviving in Vojvodina and are Hungarian
operated. While not being openly shut down, which could shift Western
attention to this region, they cannot purchase newsprint because Serbian
producers refuse or are instructed not to sell to these news
organizations. The tense border situation has made it very difficult to
purchase and import goods from across the border. 

The mass exodus of Hungarian and Croat refugees into Hungary and Croatia
meant that these people, opponents to
Serbian government policies, were not able to vote in the elections of
December 19, 1993. As a result, Milosevic further increased his power
and legislative majority. The number of Hungarians living in this region
today is disputed. However, conservative sources place the figure at
around 450,000 [others to 800,000] and rapidly decreasing. In the
Serbian occupied regions of Croatia, 90% of the Hungarian population has
been expelled. 

____________________________________

Well, that should answer some questions.  Serbs need to accept that
their government is not as nice as they wish it to be. 
Serbian-Americans should put a great deal of effort into influencing
that government to act decently.  Serbian-Americans I believe have this
responsibility to their homeland especially in an open society such as
the US where the government does not control the media. Learn something
and maybe the world would view Serbia in a different light.  Frankly, I
would be embarrased if I caught myself trying to justify Serbian
actions.

--- 
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/

Check a map of Budapest, I beleive "Rakospalota" is a suburb now.
-- 
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/

On 22 Aug 1996, Aleksandar Sarovic wrote:

> A different story about the war in Yugoslavia

[ EVIL SERVIAN PROPAGANDA DELETED FOR CLARITY]
 
The Servs, such as this Aleksadnar Sarovic, have no shame. Even though his
Servia and her leaders have been charged with genocide and crimes against
humanity by the International UN War Crimes Tribunal and the World Court
in the Hague for the planning and executing genocidal, expansionist wars
in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, this Serv is still peddling his evil 
Servian propaganda to the world as if the world has not had enough
time to learn in the last five years how the Servs behave against their
neighbors.

Shame!!!

        "SHELL THEM 'TILL THEY'RE ON THE EDGE OF MADNESS" 

The following article appeared in the Anthony Lewis column "Abroad at
Home" of The New York Times on Jan. 5, 1996:

Boston- How did Yugoslavia descend into the savagery that killed 200,000
people and made two million refugees? It is a question of single
importance, not just for history but as a key to seeing that it does not
happen again, there or elsewhere.

We now have a documented answer, powerfully convincing in its evidence.
It is a five-hour television series. "Yugoslavia: Death of a Nation,"
shown on the BBC and then here, between Christmas and New Year's, on the
Discovery Channel.

Western politicians and commentators who wanted to close their eyes to
the horror in the former Yugoslavia have often said that it was caused by
"ancient hatreds." Americans, they said- or Britons or whoever- should
not get involved in such impenetrable ethnic-religious conflicts.
 
But it was not "ancient hatreds" that produced ethnic cleansing, rape and
concentration camps. It was men: ambitious men who stirred up extreme
nationalist emotions as a way to power. It was one man above all,
Slobodan Milosevic of Serbia. "Death of a Nation" makes that unarguably
clear.

We see Mr. Milosevic at the beginning of his manipulations: addressing a
Serbian crowd in the predominantly Albanian province of Kosovo in April
1987. The crowd provokes a police detachment, mostly Albanian. A man
shouts, "The police attacked us". Mr. Milosevic says, "You will not be
beaten again." It was all arranged- and Belgrade television showed the
scene with Mr. Milosevic as a Serbian hero.

That and many other scenes are amazing examples of contemporaneous
footage found by the independent British producers who made the series,
Brian Lapping Associates. There is even film taken secretly by Serbian
intelligence. And there are gripping interviews.

Radovan Karadzic, the Bosnian Serb leader who has been indicted for war
crimes, says that when Bosnia declared its independence in April 1992,
Mr. Milosevic "couldn't care less if Bosnia was recognized. He said:
'Caligula proclaimed his horse a senator, but the horse never took his
seat. Bosnia will get recognition, but...'"

When Mr. Milosevic decided to attack Croatia in the summer of 1991, he
used volunteers under the extremist paramilitary leader Vojislav Seselj.
The Yugoslav Federal Army provided weapons, uniforms and transportation.
The paramilitaries burned civilians alive and left the bodies as a message.

Again in 1992, when the attack on Bosnia began, Mr. Milosevic sought to
avoid responsibility. One of his aides says that he "pulled a fast one"-
transferred every Serb in the Federal Army to Bosnian Serb forces while
continuing to pay and supply them.

The first major attack on the town of Zvornik in Bosnia: a terrifying
onslaught that left 2,000 Bosnian Muslim civilians "unaccounted for".
Vojislav Seselj's paramilitaries were there, and he tells an interviewer:
"Milosevic was in absolute control. It was all planned in Belgrade."

Mr. Milosevic is not the only Yugoslav figure shown in the series as a
cold-blooded manipulator, but he is special. The President of Slovenia,
Milan Kucan, says: "With Milosevic you never can relax. Show him a
finger, and he'll have your arm off."

One of the most arresting aspects of the series is the evidence of how
Western weakness encouraged the genocidal aggression. Mr. Milosevic sent
a secret envoy to Moscow before attacking Croatia, and the Soviet
military said its intelligence showed that the West would not respond. It
was good intelligence.

Dr. Karadzic, speaking to an interviewer, confirms what critics of
American and European policy have maintained - that we could have stopped
it. "I knew," he says, "that if the West put in 10,000 men to cut off our
supply corridor, we Serbs would be finished."

Those who are skeptical of television's potential as a medium for
sustained journalism of a high order should see this series and think
again. So should those American politicians who tell us that we should be
content with the degraded trash that the free market mostly brings to the
screen.

There are more remarkable moments in the series than a column can even
suggest. For me the most chilling is the voice of Ratko Mladic, the
Bosnian Serb general, telling his men on the hills overlooking Sarajevo:
"Shell the presidency and the Parliament. Target Muslim neighborhoods -
not many Serbs live there. Shell them 'till they're on the edge of madness."

ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
SERVIAN SATAN SLOB-O MILOSEVIC IS GOING TO PAY FOR THE HORRIBLE CRIMES IN
BOSNIA AND CROATIA. SERVIAN WAR CRIMINALS AND THEIR SERVants WILL ALSO PAY!
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

P.K. Chong writes:

> After all, I suppose it would help the Magyar to survive in Slovakia 
> (on paper that is) if they have a good understanding of Slovak. 

Please don't be ridiculous. 
First: If the Hungarians in Slovakia perished the smallest they should 
not triple their numbers all only during the last 50 years (and 
despite of the massive emigration to the Czechia - I think there is 
still at least 100 000 of them over there despite that Czechs, due to 
the extremely high criminality, threatened for a while to deport most 
of them back to Slovakia).

Second: Do you really mean that the Chinese people are avoiding 
annihilation in Canada only because they are refusing to learn and 
speak english (or french)?

> However, the sources which said that Prime Minister Meciar blamed
> the Magyar minority for Slovak economic problems were from the
> Encylcopedia Britannica 1994 Year Book - a fairly credible source in
> the opinion of many.

Just looking at the OECD numbers for 1993:
Slovenia: GNP/inh 9210 USD, GNP growth 3.5%
Czechia:  GNP/inh 8422 USD, GNP growth 5.5%
Hungary:  GNP/inh 5962 USD, GNP growth 1.5%
Slovakia: GNP/inh 5776 USD, GNP growth 5.5%
Poland:   GNP/inh 4669 USD, GNP growth 5.5% 

Foreign investments are for Hungary at 7 billion USD level, for 
Czechia at 5 billion USD level and for Slovakia at 300 million USD but 
I could see just few days ago at NBC that folks from the whole world 
gathered to Magyaria to build housing for those poor people so they 
should have somewhere to live (and notice, not to Bosna or Albania but 
Magyaria).
Who seems to have real economical problems?

Maybe the Magyar government is, in a classical manner, supporting 
and encouraging the Magyarish nazism just to create distraction from 
the domestic problems.
You must have heard about a guy named Hitler and he was once running 
the same race as the Magyar government is running now: screaming 
highly about pretended local, life and survival threatening, terror 
against the German minorities elsewhere, having nothing but a justice 
on his mind.

Judging from your text Meciar obviously didn't accuse Slovaks speaking 
magyarish to cause problems to *Slovakia* but (if he did at all) to 
other Slovaks, as he could simply address the extreme share of the 
social benefit cost level for such a small share of the Slovakia's 
population, and believe me there are plenty of people, specially old 
with the communist pensions, who need every help they should get.

Czechs are much richer and have just a small share of them but are 
still upset and complaining.

Nobody is questioning the credibility of the EB but you must realize 
that it is made by "only humans", and they may un-willingly 
misinterpret - or simply market in a bad will created 
misinterpretations.
I don't say that they are never right, but I don't believe that 
everything there has a dignity of the God's word.
 
Besides, British were never much about Central Europe, they were 
always more interested of, and far more knowledgeable about, those 
parts of the world where they could rule over the waves.
It should be interesting to know how many Britons still believe that
Bohemia is a country more or less reminding of Scotland and not what 
is today called the Czech Republic.

> sense, say if the Slovaks of Hungary (there aren't a lot of them
> mind you) were being hypothetically mistreated by their Magyar
> masters (God forbid!) and Bratislava pay attention to their
> hypothetical mistreatment? 

I was for a moment considering possibility that you are joking, but 
the certainty in your claims and already what you say by itself 
indicates a rather solid and total ignorance.

On this point there are, sadly enough, just too many maybe's and 
'WHAT IF's. 
The FACT is anyhow that 1918 when Magyaria was created was about 1/3 
of the population of that country non-magyars and even after WWII had 
Magyaria still a Slovak population of about 500 000.

> I think it makes perfect sense for a home country to be concerned
> about an ethnically-related minority (In this case Hungarian - 
Slovaks) 
> or whenever some of its citizens or kindred people are endangered or 
> whatever in a foreign country. 

You are hitting the spot: What are they - are they Slovaks, are they 
Magyars, are they Hungarians, are they living in a foreign country or 
in a country where they belong? 

What are YOU? 
Are you a Chinese or a Canadian? Are *you* living in a foreign 
country?
 
(Of course, you could be an immigrant and consider Canada as such, but 
something, maybe the simple-mindness with which you are happily and 
innocently demonstrating your ignorance is telling me that you are 
most probably the second generation).

> For instance, in Canada (my home country) whenever there is a plane
> crash or disaster in a foreign land, the Canadian newscasters
> (regardless of channel) make mention of not only the total
> casualties but also whether Canadians were injured/killed or
> involved in the incident/disaster.
> I am sure the Americans do the same as well as every other nation in 
> is world including Slovakia.

??????? 8-O
(I don't say nothing <= I must be a terribly nice person.)

> Look at Israel! Remember in 1990 about the Israeli airlift of
> thousands of Jews out of Ethiopia? They were just concerned about
> the safety of their relations and kindred! Is that wrong or even
> strange? 

Right !!! and right again!!! It is how any responsible government and 
nation simply *must* act, *should* act and *would* act when there 
is a *real* and imminent danger.
The survival instinct of the normal people is always stronger than any
official bullshit. 
Could Magyars ever show one single presentable and "valid" refugee 
from any of the magyarish primary targets: Rumania, Ukraine or 
Slovakia *then* you should really see what the public media hell is.

> Anyway with any country in the world, there is a big difference 
> between de jure and de facto. By law according to the Slovak 
> constitution (I'm indirectly quoting you), the Hungarian minority 
> is allotted the same rights as the Slovak majority. 
> Fine, but in practice the Magyars are treated differently. 

Could you please be more specific?

> Let's face it! In the U.S. by law all citizens regardless of 
> sex, race, creed, whatever are treated equally but why the hell in 
> practice is there such stupid things like affirmative action (where 
> blacks are allowed through this law to gain easier access to jobs 
> whereas the whites are subtly discouraged by being given tougher 
> entrance tests and the like?) 

So you don't like Afro-Americans.

> Perhaps Count István Szechényi (a legnagyobb magyar - the 
> greastest Hungarian) said it best when he said on Magyarization - 
> 
> The twirl of the tongue is never the beat of the heart. If one 
> speaks Magyar it does not mean he is Magyar in spirit.
> 

First:  I am accepting your assertion that legna-gyobb means great or 
greatest.
Second: This is the only really interessant part in the whole of your 
letter.

Is the fervor of the slovakian renegades just an expression of desire
to be accepted by other legbob magyars like them? Some kind of 
circular amplification of aggressivity originating in desire to prove 
that they are more legbob than those of their likes who are trying to 
prove that they are more legbob than those who are trying to prove 
that ...?
I don't claim that every legna-gyobb magyar is a slovakian renegade 
but isn't it amusing that those with slovakian last names are the 
wildest?

I doubt that any of the neigbours of the Magyaria has any objection
to the vision of Magyars residing in the historical Great Magyaria
(despite assumable Bashkirjan objections). 
But magyars should finally accept that only because 1000 years ago 
Petchengs beated them out doesn't make them to a "master race" and 
gives them right to, as a compensation through conquest and/or the 
pity of the world, create an even greater, greatest (?) Magyaria on 
the territories of their neighbours and in the Europe of today. 

But of course, should they be able to create a Great Magyaria by 
working harder and talking less it should certainly be something 
memorable, admirable and absolutely a proof of a *real* greatness (and 
for sure more timely).

Then, is your Count (whatever he was) just condemning the 
magyarization or is he stating it clearly and once for all that there 
is a difference between real magyars and fakes?

The *original* magyars were the most (the only really, in the modern 
sense) asian of all uralian tribes which settled in the Western 
Europe, but the "magyars" of today have hardly any genetical marker 
which could confirm their Uralian origins - even compared with the 
Finns and Estonians!
Considering the Turk rule of Magyaria it clearly shows that there are
*practically* no *ethnical* Magyars left in that country. 

In the sense of the magyar heritage I am obviously more magyar than 
(maybe) 95%-99% of those claiming to be that - as I have at least one 
ancestor who was a real magyar 600 year ago (and not some kind of 
fonney, itsy-bitsy "magyar" 60 or at most 160 years ago).

> The Slovak government twirls it tongue stating everyone is treated 
> equally but at heart they have other things in mind. 

So you are now even a heart and mind reader.

> Sorry about bursting your bubble, but I must admit that some of your 

> material was quite shocking for me (a Hungarophile) to read! 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Peter Chong
> 

This was too serious. 
What about something entertaining - read HUNCOR - in one article you 
can read about how Serbs are naughty and bloodthirsty as opposite to 
the magyar doves while another is reminding us that it was magyars (!) 
who beated Serbs in the WWI and shall so beat them again and third 
complains how un-peaceful the Central Europe of today is and promisses 
that if only magyars were holding the whip, everything should be 
different.

Regards

Juraj Ziska
[/\/\/\]

--------------

You'll be amazed!

http://www.singnet.com.sg/~parkerl     

(i.e.  HTTP://WWW.SINGNET.COM.SG/~PARKERL  in small caps)

In article >, 
o-state.edu 
says...
>
>In article >, Dan K. > wrote:
>>
>>You are even a worse slime ball than I ever imagined.  You are a total
>>disgrace to the country that you claim you are a citizen of and you are 
>>even a disgrace to your Russian race.  Many Russians have come to like
>>Americans and appreciate that America's culture is far superior to anything
>>found in Russia. 
>
>What? I've never met any russian in america who thinks like that. American
>economy is far superior, but culture.....

Culture is the inevitable by-product of a sufficiently advanced economy.
A more basic example is to say that civilization (culture if you will)
is a by-product of a society having an agricultural surplus.

Without that *agricultural* surplus, you have nothing.

Because of a superior economy, you have a culture that can be * afforded *
and self-sustaining.
How else can one afford (private sector) artists, writers, (non-military) scien
ce,
this is why Pavrotti , and the finest artists and scientists
etc. come here, where their arts and talents are allowed to flourish,
and in turn, you have a feed back mechanism which also affects the
economy.

A example you can understand is
Western CD’s and computers, etc. go to even Sovok, don’t they?
And the culture of the Russo-Mongol controlled Soviet Union
(ignoring their aggressive military complex) introduced the system of
counting money in stores by using an * abacus * 
(taken from of an ancient Chinese innovation),
what else could they * afford * ?
 

Your wonderful and intelligent Russian controlled “Sovok” Soviet Union,  since 
the 1960’s,
has had to *import* food in the form of Western government
subsidized food imports, private bank loans to the Russian controlled
Sovok Union, (in which the only reason anybody would extend those 
criminal Russian bandits controlling the Soviet Union credits was because
those loans were guaranteed and secured by Western governments),
etc..

>The real american culture is about to be killed by mass culture. I
>wouldn't call america culture better than russian, I wouldn't call
>american culture better than american, I'd say they're different.


You speak of “mass culture” in America!!!
 Western Culture is far, far superior to your “proletarian” Russian
“culture”, foisted and spread and rammed down the throats of other
nations by force. Nations which were also kept in * forced * isolation from the
 West
and the rest of the planet.
Continuously being told you were the greatest “culture” on Earth.
The proof of this, was the fact of other Russians telling other Russians
this was so, all the time, therefore it must be so.
Even now in the West, you cling desperately to this.

Hell man, those dirty savages don’t even have the * cleanliness * and
basic  * cultural * concept of sanitation and infectious decease control and th
e 
technological know how, ability or even desire to provide decent drinking water
 in Moscow that
doesn’t have hepatitis, giardia, filth, and human  * waste *  sewage in it.
That’s disgusting, from my *inferior* American cultural point of view.
Though you would say different strokes for different folks...



> But
>think- Russian culture originates in the culture of Kievan Rus, 


Then you should know enough to spell it as “Kyiv” using
*Ukrainian* spelling in transliteration and not the Russian
transliteration spelling form of “Kiev,” right?

To repeat: Kyiv, Ukraine
not “Kiev,” Ukraine. Right?

Ukrainians wish to rid themselves of the process of “Russification”
as much as the Baltic Nations and Eastern Europe in general does.

BTW:
And do not Russians regard Ukrainians, in which  *Kyiv* is located, as inferior
?
Yet take great delight in saying their  Russian language came from, was develop
ed
by, Ukrainians along  the way, with other elements of culture from Kyiv, Rus/Uk
raine?

Rather contradictory, is it not Sovok Luchin?


>which
>is 100 years old, and american culture is just 200 years old. 

(Mr. Luchin made a typo above and meant to say “1,000 years old” - my note)

> > But your post here shows that while you are here studying
>>at US taxpayer expense you despise and hate things American and in your
>>typical Russian self delusion think that you and your low brow Russo-Mongolia
n
>>culture is somehow superior to American culture. 
>Dan Russian culture and Mongolian culture are very different, and I belive
>you don't know both of them.
> > What is it about Russo-Mongolian
>>culture that you feel is superior?  That your country is committing genocide
>>against the brave Chechen freedom fighters?  Is that what you think makes
>>you feel superior? 
>No, Dan , that is not russian culture.

Yes it is. Historically and ever since the rise of the Russian state from Mosco
w.
Brutality, rape, genocide, mass deportation, forced resettlements
with the concomitant high percentage loss of life, suppression
of national cultures and languages, resettlement of Russo-Mongol colonizers
in the crushed nations, horror after horror. * That * is the * historical * Rus
sian
culture ever since the rise of Moscovy  from the swamps of Russia, a Finno-Ugri
an,
Mongol, Asiatic area far, far from the former heartland of Slavic Kyiv, Rus-Ukr
aine.


> Would you say that the crime of
>nazi are german culture? Would you say that Chinese cukture is the culture
>of cultural revolution? And if you remember what your country did to
>native americans (not much different from what russian military is doing
>in Chechnya now)

The worst military * massacre * to ever take place on American soil against Nat
ive
Americans, by the US Army Cavalry was at Wounded Knee South Dakota against the
Sioux. Led by scared, inexperienced, junior military officers, approximately 25
0
Sioux men, women and children were slaughtered. It was the most horrible milita
ry
action ever to take place on American soil. It took place in the 1880’s (?).

The book describing it is called  _Bury My Heart In Wounded Knee_ .  A popular
book in the 70’s in many American universities.

That number, in Russian terms, wouldn’t even be considered a * snack *.

And what is going on now in Grozny, Chechna?
Military bombing raids from thousands of feet in altitude?
Missile and mortar and artillery strikes into a  “Russian ‘Federation’ “ city i
n 1996?

>- is it real american culture? Of course not. 

But Grozny, Chechna and small and large * villages *, rape, looting, shooting o
f innocent
women and children 
 * is * traditional Russian culture, and in 1996 Russia, with air to ground and
 surface to 
surface missiles, chemical defoliants in Chechen forests that kill immediately 
 many small
animals, and bombing and strafing of anything that moves, or is even dead alrea
dy.

Sovok Luchin!  You are a sovok animal.

WHAT DO THEY TEACH YOU IN THAT SOVIET RATHOLE ANYWAY?

Leave this pest hole America!
This way you won’t have to live here among such  uncultured thrash,
Don’t spread your wonderful Russian culture here!
Take your primitive, savage, sadistic and brutal culture
 back to where you and it came from, your schools,
to your family where you also learned it, where you took it in with your mother
’s milk.
Take it all the way back to the Tsars of Moscow centuries ago...

And show the proper respect for your guest country.
That would show a little more “culture”.
You are here and not in Russia, killing children and making the survivors 
speak Russian, as is your right to do so for you believe it makes Russia *great
*.
The culture is great!
Everyone and everything should speak and be Russian!

Sounds like a cultural arrogant * master race * variant to me.

(but don’t drink the water)

alex


 
>                                                    Alex
>

Tudna valaki segiteni?!Szeretnek valakit elerni Magyarorszagon a
radiotelephonjan.

Azonban mindig csak egy uzenetet kapok a "radio telephone ceg" -tol mi
szerint a telephone most nem kapcsolhato.Ami furcsa mert a koma pest
kozeleben tartozkodik.

Tudomasom szerint minden radio telefont a 06-tal kell hivni a
telefonszamot kovetoen,azonban a 06 nem mukodik innen tavhivas eseten.

Es mi a helyzett hogyha a hivott fel nem Magyarorszagon tartozkodik
hanem (kamionsofor) barhol Europaban.Ha Magyarorszagrol akarjuk elerni
akkor ugyanugy a 06+tel.szam-al hivjuk.De innen Kanadabol kell az
orszag es varos kodja is.

Koszi......