Hi everybody!



This is to let everybody know that 256 colour GIF images about the shields

of Hungary, the official shield of the Republic of Hungary, etc and maps of

the historic Kingdom of Hungary are available at the following ftp site:



ftp bme-tel.ttt.bme.hu

directory: /pub/income/hunmap



Here you can find the following GIF images:



1)    hungmap1.gif    Map of Hungary in the 11th century.

2)    hungpar1.gif    Map of Hungary in the 15th century,

                      Part one, west of the river Danube.

3)    hungpar2.gif    Map of Hungary in the 15th century,

                      Part two, east of the river Danube.

4)    hungmap2.gif    Map of the Kingdom of Hungary at the

                      turn of the 20th century (black/white).

5)    hungtria.gif    The dismemberment of the Kingdom of

                      Hungary in the Trianon Treaty (ending

                      World War I.) in 1921 (black/white).

6)    hungshi1.gif    The shield of Hungary with wreath (badge).

7)    hungshi2.gif    The shield of Hungary without wreath (badge).

8)    hungshi3.gif    The official shield of the Republic of Hungary,

                      postcard.

9)    hungshi4.gif    The full-shield of Hungary with the territories

                      and the angels.

10)   hungshi5.gif    The shield of Hungary, postcar .

11)   hungshi6.gif    The shield of Hungary with wreath (black/white)





To download the files:



ftp bme-tel.ttt.bme.hu

login: anonymous

password: your e-mail address

cd /income/hunmap

binary

mget <file1> <file2> <file3>     ...etc.

bye





Hope you will love them!

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 01:52:15 -0500
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem >
To: 
Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
550 gwuvm.bitnet (tcp)... 550 Host unknown
554 Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >... 550 Host
 unknown (Authoritative answer from name server)

   ----- Unsent message follows -----
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 01:52:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Glen Camp <gcamp>
To: 
Cc: Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >
Subject: Re: Health care
Message-Id: >
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

        *Some* national health care plans are poorly administered, high in
cost and bad in delivered services, such as Hungary's.  Others, such as in
Germany and Canada deliver excellent care for far less than the US plan
which costs the most of any developed country in the world.  It seems to
me the "single payer plan" is the cheapest and best delivery care system
as it cuts out the middle man (esp. the insurance companies) which in the
US eat up about 40% of the the almost $800 billion (thousand million) cost
in the US per year.  I have lived in Germany and my sister is a resident
in Canada so I can compare those plans with the US which is terrific in
acute care but very poor in preventive care, particularly for children of
poor families.


--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

On Mon, 28 Nov 1994 02:20:33 -0500 Glen Camp said:
>        *Some* national health care plans are poorly administered, high in
>cost and bad in delivered services, such as Hungary's.  Others, such as in
>Germany and Canada deliver excellent care for far less than the US plan
>which costs the most of any developed country in the world.

--Depends on what you mean by "far less."  The last hard figures I have
say that in 1991 the U.S. spent 13.4 of GDP for health care.  In that
same year, Canada spent 10% (2nd highest in the rich countries) and
Germany (West Germany only) spent 8.3% which is among the higher rates
in Europe.  The U.S. is estimated to spend 13.9% for 1994, but I don't
have comparable figures for the other countries.  Remember, too,
that this figure (in the U.S. at least) includes money spent for
over-the-counter medication.  Canada's provincial plans vary, too.
Rich provinces spend more than poor ones.  Coverage isn't as even
as one would hope in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland.  And, I believe
that Canada has waiting lists, even for essential cardiac surgery.

  It seems to
>me the "single payer plan" is the cheapest and best delivery care system
>as it cuts out the middle man (esp. the insurance companies) which in the
>US eat up about 40% of the the almost $800 billion (thousand million) cost
>in the US per year.

--We have a "single-payer" plan for armaments.  The defense department is
the single payer for, say, tanks or submarines.  Why would the single-
payer plan work for health care any differently?  And why not use it for
food, clothing, and housing?  Any single-payer plan is a monopoly.
Ask your nearest friendly economist.  Are monopolies cost-efficient?

--Also, can you tell me where you got the 40% figure?  In 1991, the
U.S spent $751.8 billion for health care.  Insurance premiums were
244.4.  The balance was paid out of pocket or by government.  Now,
about 33% of the health care bill went to insurance premiums.  At least
some of that money went for health care.  We're not giving 245 B to
insurance companies with no return, are we?  The same source, the
U.S. Health Care Financing Administration, says that private companies
paid out 209,265 B to vendors.  This left them 35.2 B for reserves, expenses,
and profits.  This is about 15% of the amount spent for insurance
premiums, but only about 5% of the $751.8.

--All these numbers come from the Statistical Abstract of the United
States 1993.  The 1994 edition is now out, but I haven't gotten one
yet.  You may distrust them, since they are provided by the
U.S. government, but then you are in a bit of a bind, since this
is the same government that you are willing to trust as a single payer.

--The only way to keep costs down is to use fewer services.  We probably
spend too much for equipment and spend too much in the last month of
life.  We have, for example, six times the number of MRI machines
per capita that Canada does.

--This has little to do with Hungary, but it started out with a discussion
of death rates and health care in Hungary.  I posted the death rates in
Europe, including Hungary.  Did that stuff, which did have to do with
Hungary, get posted?

> >
> --Not as I understand you to mean it.  I have no faith in revolution.
> Look what it produced in Russia in 1917 and Hungary in 1918.  Generally, a
> different bunch of thugs takes control.

Petofi, Kossuth as thugs...cccc
I have no faith fullstop. But I think revolutions are necessary,
and happen whether we like it or not, but I prefer it to be conscious,
democratic process, not the last big bang when unhappy people
have no other choice.

>
> >Doesn't matter which creep it is - they don't have any ideas except
> >perhaps their pay-packets to be enthusiastic about.
> >
> --Sure glad that you're not a bitter person.

I am not at all bitter. Have they got any ideas they did not
lift from tories or from manipulated public opinion?
If anyone is in politics without ideas - they are in for money
and power (in that order). That's why politicians are not
figures to be respected anymore like they used to be, when
political parties pretended much better that they had ideas...

Come and share in a unique Yuletide Celebration
                              the sixth annual
                              FESTIVAL OF TREES

    Including Victorian decorations, the Menorah and the traditions of
  Ukraine, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Scotland, Hungary, Ireland, Italy,
           Latvia, Belarus, Hispanaic-Latino and America.


                   A SPECIAL EXHIBITION OF HUNGARIAN PRINTS

      Artist's Self-Portraits (Budapest 1928); Landscapes (Budapest 1932);
                 and Stephen Csoka, N.A. S.A.G.A. (1897-1989)


              OPENING RECEPTION FOR THE FESTIVAL AND EXHIBITION;
                 SUNDAY, DECEMBER 4, 1994, 2:00 pm - 6:00 pm

           Festival and Exhibition: December 4, 1994 - January 29, 1995
               Museum hours: Tues. - Sat. 11 to 4, Sunday 1 to 4

Hungarian Heritage Center
300 Somerset Street, New Brunswick, NJ 08903 (908) 846-5777


Margaret Papai
Librarian - Hungarian Heritage Center
300 Somerset Street, New Brunswick, NJ 08903
in%""

On Mon, 28 Nov 1994 13:49:48 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>
>Petofi, Kossuth as thugs...cccc

I was thinking of Kun Bela.

>I am not at all bitter. Have they got any ideas they did not
>lift from tories or from manipulated public opinion?
>If anyone is in politics without ideas - they are in for money
>and power (in that order). That's why politicians are not
>figures to be respected anymore like they used to be, when
>political parties pretended much better that they had ideas...

--I suspect that the root problem is that there aren't any fresh
ideas.  Nothing is really new since Metternich's time.  I've been
doing some reading in the fiasco known as the Council of Vienna
and the subsequent attempts to restore the Old Order after the
Napoleonic Wars.  Except for the names and places, the events
are distressingly familiar.

--We have just completed the Thanksgiving vacation when we celebrated
the anniversary of the Pilgrims' survival after a year away from
you lot in England.  I suspect that many who have been eating, drinking,
and making merry will be back on-line and will flame us for this
non-Hungarian conversation.  Brace yourself.

--Saw Margaret Beckett on the telly last night.  By George, she does
have red hair.  Auburn, actually, but well within the family.  Very
bright she is, and I saw her stop John Major cold during question time.

Charles

> >
> >You can can object that they have achieved major successes in the
> >economy transition, monetary stabilisation, etc, but WHY IS THEIR
> >GROWTH SO SLUGGISH? Especially when compared with China, Thailand,
> >Malaysia or Mexico. They say that Eastern European countries possess
> >skilled work force, proximity to the West, and almost any comparative
> >advantage you can invent. Then what makes them laggards?
> >

Is it anything to do with the population having higher aspirations
than the living standard of the above mentioned countries, therefore
missing out on capital investment which prefers  starvation wages
no trade unions, no health @ safety acts etc, etc...?

(English below)

Jo napot!  Sajnalom, nem tul jo a magyarom de...

Keresek egy lemezet egy magyar zenekar-tol.  A
zenekar-t ugy hivjak hogy 'Solaris', es a lemez
neve az hogy 'A Marsbeli Kronikak'.  It Kanadaban
nem lehet megkapni.  CD-n szeretnem megvenni.

Ha valaki tudja hogy honnan kaphato, legyen
szives ide (bit.listserv.hungary)
irni, mert nem kapok email-t.

Kosonom,

Nagy Tamas

> ------------------------------------------

Hello everyone.  I'm looking for a CD by a
Hungarian group by the name of 'Solaris'.  The
disc is called 'The Martian Chronicles'.  If
anyone has any information on how I, in Canada,
could get it, please post it here, since I don't
get email.

Thanks,

Tom Nagy

Email to me will bounce.

Date sent:  28-NOV-1994 09:28:03
>
>> >
>> >You can can object that they have achieved major successes in the
>> >economy transition, monetary stabilisation, etc, but WHY IS THEIR
>> >GROWTH SO SLUGGISH? Especially when compared with China, Thailand,
>> >Malaysia or Mexico. They say that Eastern European countries possess
>> >skilled work force, proximity to the West, and almost any comparative
>> >advantage you can invent. Then what makes them laggards?
>> >
>
>Is it anything to do with the population having higher aspirations
>than the living standard of the above mentioned countries, therefore
>missing out on capital investment which prefers  starvation wages
>no trade unions, no health @ safety acts etc, etc...?



Are you implying that lack of govt. intervention is a bad thing?!? :o :)
Looks like certain econ. conservatives on this list were right:  free
market (so free in this case that the vertigo makes me ill) DOES do great
things for the economy!  Sure, child labor and low wages makes life sort'a
tough for the average Joe, but it would be great to be an investor!!
                :):):>:):>:> <- or something like that...
Speaking of investors and investments, don't most of these investors
originate in the US and Western Europe?  (Japan too!)  Maybe the
conservatives are right:  cheap labor does attract money.  Everytime an
investor invests in one of those cheap countries, however, isn't that a
decrease in potential investment in their own country?  Higher unemployment
and immigrating jobs?  Specifically - is the opening up of the former
Communist block, as well as the wonderfull new free market systems of SE
Asia, causing the economic stagnation (or outright recessions) of the West?
I read an article in Forbes magazine which described the biggest and latest
economic problem to be a shortage in capital.  Eastern Europe, SE Asia,
Latin America, and the West are all desperately trying to get investors to
invest.  There is not enough capital to go around, however.  10,000 jobs
left Germany alone last year destined for:  East Central Europe.  Hungary,
Czech, and Polish growth rates, while not adreniline pumped like China's,
still are nothing to scoff at in comparison with much of the West.

So maybe those folks who say that higher mininum wages will cause
unemployment are right:  jobs go where the labor is cheap.  QUestion,
however:  should the West start lowering standards of living to the level
of Hungary?  Or should the West sit and get beaten, hands down?  Should
East Central Europe take a page from SE Asia and start selling themselves
into virtual slavery in order to be competitive on the market?

What if Hungary's economic success is dependent on the economic decline of
the West?

Just a lil' something to think on...


                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Ted' ma zena ma hlad, tak musim jit."

PS:  The views expressed here-in are not necessarily the same as mine.  I
just thought they might get some good discussions going.  Tie the
immigration/free market disc. w/ an economic discussion, etc.

I am surprised by Eva Balogh's discussion of the seeming total lack of
preventive health care in Hungary. An originally East German but for
years US practicing MD friend of mine stated to me after several recent
visits to reunited Germany, that the major difference between the old
E-German and the US health care was the stress on preventive care in the
old E-Germany. He specifically mentioned compulsory immunization, prenatal
care, etc. Not being familiar with the current medical situation in
Hungary, I am wondering how different the preventive health care
development was in Hungary compared with other ex bloc countries.

The information I have from my remaining family is that they use MDs who
are family friends and their referrals, exclusively, and stay away from
"unknown" doctors. The "favors" in the past consisted me changing hard
currency for Ft for their doctor friends when they visited western
countries. I guess that was sort of a "halapenz".

I had a chance to visit several large industrial (state owned) concerns in
Hungary and found that all had "executive" dining rooms, but there was no
ear/eye protection, or safety shoes for the workers and OSHA would have
kittens at the total lack of safety rules. Of course some folks would
prefer such state owned "paradise" even among the readers of this news
group. I do know what it costs me to lose a worker due to industrial
accidents and it is in my very strong interest to prevent it. There it does
not seem to matter. The statistics does not really exist for work related
health problems in Hungary (or any of the ex-"workers paradises"), but I am
sure that also has an effect on life expectancy and other sundry problems.

I am not sure about the smoking/food related problem as being major cause.
People smoked more in the 30s to 60s than now even Hungary and the food
choices were even more restriceted (zsiroskenyer for school was a standard
fare) and the life expectancy was higher than now. It is probably a
combination of many effects, including Hungarian car driving habits. One
can see the horns grow as soon as some otherwise meeek person gets behind
the wheel.

Regards,Jeliko.

> in Hungary
> "preventive medicine" is practically an unknown concept.

While I lived in Hungary last time (83-87) I had 6 monthly checkups
of similar nature to yours in a Kaposvar clinic (free), I have the
feeling that there was no information available about these facilities,
and most of the people who attended were only sent if there was a
suspicion of desease. I presume, as most patients there were old).
Also my parents attend regularly, but again they must be better
informed.
The Videoton (Tab) factory where I worked had a mobile
unit of cancer screening in my last year there.
There are mobile
blood - units,  visiting the village regularly, you could have the
day off if you gave blood.

> Europe as a whole.) Whereas in the United States for the last twenty or so
> years there have been a conscious effort at not showing people smoking on TV
> or picture them in newspapers with cigarettes in their mouths, it is common

I have the horrible feeling that the tobacco-maffia now concentrate it's
wares in East-Europe and the third world. Same as when breast-milk
propaganda in the West made powdered milk promotions in the third
world causing
lots of deaths

> sure why the introduction of national health plans usually result in inferior
> medical care, long waits, and, at least in the case of Hungary, in illicit
> monetary transactions.
>

Here in th UK the National Health worked very well until Thatcher...

Readers of the Discussion Group may be interested in the recently
published book by R.J. Crampton "Eastern Europe in the Twentieth
Century", Routledge, London and New York, 1994. The author is University
Lecturer in East European History and Fellow of St. Edmund Hall, Oxford.
He gives a good and very readable summary of the history and politics of
the region.

Interestingly enough both the Red Terror and the White Terror are
mentioned. In the Chapter on Totalitarianism discussing Kadar, he states
on page 301 that

"2-2500 Hungarians were subjected to summary trial and execution. Up to
200,000 had in the meanwhile fled to sanctuary in the West."

Thus, apparently Gosztonyi was low balling the Kadar Terror.


C.K. Zoltani

Sorry to make two posts where one would've done...

The catalog blurb for Kova1cs's book:

In this important new historical study, MK examines the struggle between
liberal and anti-Semitic policies among professional groups--doctors,
lawyers, engineers--in Hungary from 1867 to 1945.  K's main emphasis is on
the interwar period when unemployment, expansion of the welfare system, and
competition for state jobs during the Great Depression, combined with crass
anti-Semitism on the part of engineers and medical associations, radically
altered previously liberal policies of open entry and equal educational
opportunity.

--Greg

Has anyone an opinion to share concerning

        Liberal Professions and Illiberal Politics
        Hungary from the Habsburgs to the Holocaust

        Ma1ria M. Kova1cs
        University of Wisconsin

co-published by Oxford University Press and Woodrow Wilson Center Press,
1994.

--Greg

.There is one thing that I still can't understand: why are the reforming
.economies in Eastern Europe (Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Hungary,
.etc.) doing so poor?
.You can can object that they have achieved major successes in the
.economy transition, monetary stabilisation, etc, but WHY IS THEIR
.GROWTH SO SLUGGISH? Especially when compared with China, Thailand,
.Malaysia or Mexico. They say that Eastern European countries possess
.skilled work force, proximity to the West, and almost any comparative
.advantage you can invent. Then what makes them laggards?
.Looking forward to your explanation.

I don't mean to be a wiseguy, but istead of a lengthy "lecture" on the
socio-economics mumbo-jumbo. Here is my theory.
Putting the toothpaste back to the tube is more difficult then squeeze it.
Just watch the situation in the Eastern part of FDR, even with the deep pockets
of the FDR, there are coming along very slowly. I also believe that the USSR
sucked these countries dry, whereas they did not do that to China. China of
course is by no means free of problems.
Andras (expatriate Hungarian)

Thanks to Joe for his good wishes for Thanksgiving.  And in the true
spirit of multi-culturalism, I bid all of you a Hag Hunukkah Sameah, a
Happy Hanukkah!

Be1la

Eva Durant's postings re: illegal immigaration, etc., raise a number of
fine points, but I was deeply troubled by her--perhaps not seriously meant--
comment that "I [being] a Hungarian don't take legal/bureaucratic things
that seriously."

That is precisely the issue--those of us born and raised in "Anglo-Saxon"
countries *do* most certainly take "
"legal things" with the utmost seriousness, and believe, with some reason,
that they are the only thing that separates us from mere sentimentality or
worse, barbarism.  A point nicely made from a slightly different angle by
Charles (a [former?] Brit.  Hungarian society is not going to advance much
further until ordinary Hungarians, as well, of course, as the political
elite, begin to take "legal things" seriously.

It was all very well to treat the law under the Commies as a cynical tool to
maintain the power of the "cadres," from which ordinary folks were absolved.
To carry that attitude into the post-Commie era courts anarchy, and a literal-
ly lawless society.  In my view, this is jumping from the frying pan into
the fire, as we native speakers of American English (*pace* Imi Bokor) say.

Ele'g!

Be1la

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 04:35:06 CST
From: Charles >
To: Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >
Subject: Re: Returned mail: Host unknown (fwd)

On Mon, 28 Nov 1994 02:20:33 -0500 Glen Camp said:
>        *Some* national health care plans are poorly administered, high in
>cost and bad in delivered services, such as Hungary's.  Others, such as in
>Germany and Canada deliver excellent care for far less than the US plan
>which costs the most of any developed country in the world.

--Depends on what you mean by "far less."  The last hard figures I have
say that in 1991 the U.S. spent 13.4 of GDP for health care.  In that
same year, Canada spent 10% (2nd highest in the rich countries) and
Germany (West Germany only) spent 8.3% which is among the higher rates
in Europe.  The U.S. is estimated to spend 13.9% for 1994, but I don't
have comparable figures for the other countries.  Remember, too,
that this figure (in the U.S. at least) includes money spent for
over-the-counter medication.  Canada's provincial plans vary, too.
Rich provinces spend more than poor ones.  Coverage isn't as even
as one would hope in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland.  And, I believe
that Canada has waiting lists, even for essential cardiac surgery.

  It seems to
>me the "single payer plan" is the cheapest and best delivery care system
>as it cuts out the middle man (esp. the insurance companies) which in the
>US eat up about 40% of the the almost $800 billion (thousand million) cost
>in the US per year.

--We have a "single-payer" plan for armaments.  The defense department is
the single payer for, say, tanks or submarines.  Why would the single-
payer plan work for health care any differently?  And why not use it for
food, clothing, and housing?  Any single-payer plan is a monopoly.
Ask your nearest friendly economist.  Are monopolies cost-efficient?

--Also, can you tell me where you got the 40% figure?  In 1991, the
U.S spent $751.8 billion for health care.  Insurance premiums were
244.4.  The balance was paid out of pocket or by government.  Now,
about 33% of the health care bill went to insurance premiums.  At least
some of that money went for health care.  We're not giving 245 B to
insurance companies with no return, are we?  The same source, the
U.S. Health Care Financing Administration, says that private companies
paid out 209,265 B to vendors.  This left them 35.2 B for reserves, expenses,
and profits.  This is about 15% of the amount spent for insurance
premiums, but only about 5% of the $751.8.

--All these numbers come from the Statistical Abstract of the United
States 1993.  The 1994 edition is now out, but I haven't gotten one
yet.  You may distrust them, since they are provided by the
U.S. government, but then you are in a bit of a bind, since this
is the same government that you are willing to trust as a single payer.

--The only way to keep costs down is to use fewer services.  We probably
spend too much for equipment and spend too much in the last month of
life.  We have, for example, six times the number of MRI machines
per capita that Canada does.

--This has little to do with Hungary, but it started out with a discussion
of death rates and health care in Hungary.  I posted the death rates in
Europe, including Hungary.  Did that stuff, which did have to do with
Hungary, get posted?

Eva Durant wrote to Thomas Breed's discussion starter parallel between
Central Europe and South-East Asia:
>Is it anything to do with the population having higher aspirations
>>than the living standard of the above mentioned countries, therefore
>>missing out on capital investment which prefers  starvation wages
>>no trade unions, no health @ safety acts etc, etc...?

Quite apart from Eva's instinctive anti-capitalism, the above is also
incorrect.  Capitalists do not 'prefer starvation wages', they prefer
maximum profits.  Wages are only one component in the equation and
do not in themselves determine where investment will be directed.

Maximum profits come from a favourable ratio of revenues to costs.  It
is perfectly possible to gain high profits in high-cost countries as long
as the output is of high value.  If Hungarian industry wants to supply
rubber thongs to the world market, it cannot sell them for more than the
Vietnamese and, hence, its costs must also be just as low.  In Hungary
this would mean starvation wages.  On the other hand, if Hungarian
industry were able to produce supercomputers, it could pay its workforce
US-level wages for the highly skilled.

At the moment, Hungarian industry is turning out products that are very
efficiently produced by South Korea (run-of-the-mill automobiles,
computer monitors), but which do not give enough value added to be
produced profitably in high-cost Western countries.  Malaysia and
Thailand are waiting in the wing to take over once South Korea's costs
become too high and South Korean industry matures to move on to more
sophisticated goods.

Thomas Breed wrote:
>Speaking of investors and investments, don't most of these investors
>originate in the US and Western Europe?  (Japan too!)  Maybe the
>conservatives are right:  cheap labor does attract money.

Capital inflows to cheap-labour countries are only a fraction of what
goes into developed countries, only the former is more controversial and,
hence, more often quoted.  Cheap labour does attract money, but the
Taiwanese investor contemplating setting up a toy factory in China is
not going to invest in high tech in the US anyway.  I think labour is
cheapest in Africa, still there is little investment going there.
Any guesses why ?

>Everytime an
>investor invests in one of those cheap countries, however, isn't that a
>decrease in potential investment in their own country?

Only to some degree.  As I pointed out above, people prefer investing in
areas they are familiar with, therefore capital is not perfectly mobile
around the globe.

>Higher unemployment
>and immigrating jobs?  Specifically - is the opening up of the former
>Communist block, as well as the wonderfull new free market systems of SE
>Asia, causing the economic stagnation (or outright recessions) of the West?

The principle of comparative advantage has been much maligned by those
opposed to free trade and/or capitalism, but it has never been refuted.
It basically says that if two partners specialize into what they do best
and trade with each other they both will be better off than if they tried
to produce everything themselves (i.e., autarky).

>I read an article in Forbes magazine which described the biggest and latest
>economic problem to be a shortage in capital.  Eastern Europe, SE Asia,
>Latin America, and the West are all desperately trying to get investors to
>invest.  There is not enough capital to go around, however.

What is 'enough' ?  There is certainly not enough to fill every hole
everyhwere.  It is nowadays not state aid (as a couple of decades ago)
but private investment that is the bulk of capital flows.  Private investment
follows hard-nosed rules, and it will not go into a country where its
objectives are not met.  This may sound too harsh for some people, but if
there is one lesson from the debt crisis of the 70s it is that handouts
create aid dependency and not sustainable developement.

>So maybe those folks who say that higher mininum wages will cause
>unemployment are right:  jobs go where the labor is cheap.

It is empirically well established that high minimum wages cause
unemployment: the difference in unmeployment rates between the US
and Western Europe is just as well documented as the existence of the
low-paid working poor in the US.

>QUestion,
>however:  should the West start lowering standards of living to the level
>of Hungary?

The West is lowering living standards already.  Unemployment means lower
living standards on average for all if paid for from current tax collections
or lower living standards for future generations if paid for from government
borrowing.

>Or should the West sit and get beaten, hands down?

THere are signs of this too: Western Europe especially is slipping back
relative to the US and the newly industrializing countries (NICs).  It has
a debt problem similar to that of the US, but without the economic vitality
of the latter.

>Should
>East Central Europe take a page from SE Asia and start selling themselves
>into virtual slavery in order to be competitive on the market?

This 'virtual slavery' thing is a little rich.  What SE Asians have been
doing, one country after the other, is to do and sell what they can at the
price they can get and pay themselves only as much as they get.  Since they
are doing it diligently, they can bootstrap themselves, and graduate from
flimsy clothing to high technology.  As the products get more sophisticated,
the wages grow proportionately too, although this fact is pointedly ignored
by those whose anti-trade arguments it does not fit.

>What if Hungary's economic success is dependent on the economic decline of
>the West?

On the contrary, it depends on the economic advance of both East and West.
ANd, importantly, domestic reforms are indispensable even if they hurt.
As the New Zealand example has shown, radical economic surgery has
short-run social costs but it can deliver sustainable development.  Or,
closer to home, watch the Baltic states for the next emerging positive case
study or the Ukraine/Belarus for the consequences of not making the hard
decisions.  The Czechs are instructive too: reforms do not have to be
a free for all in everything.

Unfortunately, Hungary has lost four years under the previous administration,
and must make up lost ground before going forward again.

George Antony