Rad Edelstein > wrote:
>
>I can not contradict what you said.  As a matter of fact, it is
>exactly what I was trying to point out.  For the purpose of a census,
>it seems normal to you that the Jews were considered Hungarian.

Apparently it's normal to Hungarian Jews, too, because they objected to
being treated as non-hungarian minority after '89.  In fact, they resent
the use of such supposedly contrasting terms as "Hungarians vs. Jews",
because they also feel Hungarian, though of Jewish background.  What's
wrong with that?

>Too bad the same reasoning was not applied when the Hungarian authorities
>were asked to hand the Jews over for deportation to concentration
>camps.

Though I agree that the Hungarian authorities too often were more
cooperative with the occupying Germans than they had to be, but the
situation wasn't as simple as your comment makes it out to be.  In the
countryside, from where most Jews were deported, the Hungarian
government's authority was not as strong as in Budapest, where most Jews 
survived.  Thanks to that, Hungary today has the largest Jewish
population in that region.

Joe

Wally Keeler wrote:
********************
Brigitta Bali's translation of the original has never been submitted for
publication. We hereby challenge Gyorgy Kovacs to submit his satirical
take-off (imitation is flattery) of Brigitta's translation for publication
in any literary/arts/satirical/mainstream journal. Brigitta will submit her
translation for the judgement of her peers. We will see what the results
will be on a future date.
********************

Gayorgy KoVacuous weakly declines:
|1. My version has been written solely for S.C.M.

Of course, no where else would your crap even be considered for
publication.

|Not poets, but normal people.

We've never claimed poets to be normal -- they are uncommon. But, we
concede -- you are normal -- very normal -- exceedingly so. You and the
billions of other people around the world are normal. (/yawn)

|If you enjoyed it, I'm glad, if you did not I'm sorry about wasting
|your bandwidth.

You are so magnanimous. -- how very normal.

|I got recognition in e-mail, people thought it was funny.

No doubt you did -- they are the spineless jellyfish who don't have the
courage of their convictions to post publicly -- they are, how shall we put
it, normal people.

|2. I don't give a hoot about your peers. It is probably easy for you to
|   get recognition from them, 

It's easy when there is a display of talent -- something you are sadly
lacking.

|but it does not mean anything in the big picture.

There are over a billion Chinese who have never heard of you or I, and it
is likely to remain so for all our lives. At any rate, I never claimed to
mean anything in the "big picture." This is your strawman.

|3. You need to improve a lot to challenge anyone. Mainly in manners and
|logic.                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^

How quickly you forgot the crude comments you made about my 8 year old son.
What you post about me or my wife is fine because we are here publicly
dishing it out as well as getting it back, but my son is another matter --
he hasn't posted a word, so I don't think it very mannerly for you to post
such crude comments about children who are unable to respond for
themselves. You are being a whiney hypocrite again. As for logic, you have
a misguided perception of what poetry is all about. It is not about logic.
And like you, I am not a master of logic. Another strawman.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Incapable of his own wit, Goober Barfsai maims Bret Harte's
:Which I wish to remark,
:And my language is plain,
:That for ways that are dark,
:And tricks that are vain:
:The heathen Keeler are particular,
:Which the same, I would rise to explain.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article >,  (A
fucking angry romanian) wrote:

> In article >,
>    "%FNAME%" > wrote:
> 
> >It doesn't change the facts.  Minorities are treated with hatred, and 
> >extreme ethnocentrism in Romania, fascism and neo-fascistic views are 
> >on the rise, and I don't see the so-called Romanian Intelligentsia doing 
> >anything about it.  A country that officially rehabilitates a convicted 
> >and executed war criminal like Antonescu deserves nothing more than 
> >contempt from the rest of the world.

> Oh, SHUT UP YOU! who the fuck gives the right to tell us Romanians what 
> to do with our national heroes??!! 

If you want to make Antonescu a national hero, that's your problem, not 
mine. But I hope that you would reconsider the obscenities at least. 
Show a litle class.

Personally, I'm not too fond of Antonescu. He is by no means a national 
hero in my eyes. I would say that, at best, he was a tragically flawed 
national figure who made several grave errors and helped lead us on the
path to becoming a Russian colony through his mistakes.

> -Funar for Mayor of Cluj

Oh... nevermind. It was a vain hope to expect class from a Funariot.

DB

-- 
Now available on the Romanian Political Pages
The only net copy of the Romanian constitution in Romanian
(I wonder why the government never put it on their sites?)
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

In article >,  (George
Szaszvari) wrote:

> In article >,
 (T.M.Lutas) says:
> 
> >What I see and I worry about is the tendency of some hungarian irredentists
> >to try separating our two communities as a prelude to carving up Romania.
> >As long as this is avoided then have all the hungarian language instruction
> >you want.
> 
> May I suggest that less paranoia over irredentists and more attention 
> with getting Romania on its feet as an economically rich and culturally 
> diverse and happy place would be much more beneficial to ALL concerned? 
> To keep going on about Hungarians and the problems they're supposedly 
> causing in Romania smacks of using them as an alibi for the shortcomings 
> of the people who might otherwise be getting their own act together.

I'm actually a very busy activist. The hungarian stuff I try to do as
little as possible since I agree, it shouldn't be the central issue of
any ideology (take that PUNR, PRM, UDMR). It's just that when the issue
pops up I can't seem to hold myself back too well.

DB

-- 
Now available on the Romanian Political Pages
The only net copy of the Romanian constitution in Romanian
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

 (Gyorgy Kovacs)
:You have my permission to publish this wherever you wish:

To publish your crap would discredit any publication, so we would also need
a lot of money to pay for the fired editor's pension.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

 wrote:
: In article >,
: MR ATTILA HAVERLAND > wrote:
: >˙WPCš

: Egy HAVERnak barmikor, szivesen!

: JP
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

SB Productions ) wrote:
> : Attention Fellow 'Net Users:
> 
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> : one of the decade's best business opportunities.  Your chance at making
> : OVER 10,000 PER MONTH is very near!
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> : market your new business.  There are NO START-UP costs, and NO
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> : programs we surveyed that was so.
> :       It's simple, read the report and educate yourself, BEFORE you
> : dive into something that you may be uncomfortable with.  This report
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> 
> : Order your copy of the Business Report!
> : Send $13 (US Funds) to:
> 
> : Shawn Bass Productions
> : C/O Publications
> : 3422 West Hammer Lane, Suite C-284
> : Stockton, CA  95219-5493

That's a load of crap. Quit wasting bandwidth with it.

-Dawn Gayman
aka Pachira the druid
aka Renee Manigault
aka the Dungeon Mistress

Any descendant of any man who was in the battle of Franklin, no matter 
which side, is my friend.
(Free copy of my alternate-history story to anyone who can figure out 
what war I'm talking about!!)

In article >,  ()
wrote:

> This is too good to be true:
> 
> >NATO TROOPS TO PARTICIPATE IN JOINT MILITARY MANEUVERS IN ROMANIA. At
> >the request of President Ion Iliescu, the Chamber of Deputies on 21 May
> >approved the participation of NATO troops in six joint military
> >exercises to be held on Romanian territory this year within the
> >framework of the Partnership for Peace program,
> 
> I can already see the international news media descending on the scene
> of the exercises in anticipation of another pitch(fork)d battle between
> the local peasants and NATO. Please, somebody close to the scene, give
> us the blow-by-blow report.

Why there shouldn't be any problems. After all, us pooooor Romanians don't 
have the gumption to start any trouble. After all if you say that's the
way we are then it has to be true.
B->

Waiting for a Hungarian Pastor to pitch(fork) in
DB

-- 
Now available on the Romanian Political Pages
The only net copy of the Romanian constitution in Romanian
(I wonder why the government never put it on their sites?)
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

In article >,  () wrote:

> Rad Edelstein > wrote:

> >Too bad the same reasoning was not applied when the Hungarian authorities
> >were asked to hand the Jews over for deportation to concentration
> >camps.
> 
> Though I agree that the Hungarian authorities too often were more
> cooperative with the occupying Germans than they had to be, but the
> situation wasn't as simple as your comment makes it out to be.  

So was Hungary occupied by Germany or allied to Germany? You seem to 
be trying to offload things to Hungary's wartime ally Germany instead
of responsibly facing reality. Like Romania, Hungary allied with Germany 
and we should both live up to the negative moral implications of those 
alliances. Hopefully our respective countries will never be in that 
position again of choosing to ally with naked evil. 

DB

-- 
Now available on the Romanian Political Pages
The only net copy of the Romanian constitution in Romanian
(I wonder why the government never put it on their sites?)
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

In article >,  ()
wrote:

> T.M.Lutas > wrote:
> >
> >I post a simple question of why did this person with a non-romanian/
> >non-hungarian name use the hungarian name for Cluj. I thought it odd
> >in context.
> 
> Maybe he just tried to push your button.  To rattle your chain, so to
> speak.  Because your reactions are so predictable.

That's ok. I try to have a consistent philosophical base and thus you
can predict my reactions on most things. I don't view unpredictability as
necessarily an asset.

> On the other hand, why do most non-Polish/non-German people call the
> Polish city of Oswiecim as Auschwitz?

The Britannica treats Oswiecim/Auschwitz the same as it treats Cluj/Kolosvar.
There is a reference in the index if you look under A/K but it isn't on
the map as Bucuresti/Bucharest is. As for why people do it, I think that 
you know. It is the notoriety of the camp. The germans were running it
so they used the german variation and it stuck. It is kinder though, don't
you think to continue to use Auschwitz when talking about the camp. 
This allows present residents to say Oswiecim and not have their entire
lives dominated by WWII discussions based on their place of residence.

DB

-- 
Now available on the Romanian Political Pages
The only net copy of the Romanian constitution in Romanian
(I wonder why the government never put it on their sites?)
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

T.M.Lutas > wrote:
>
>So was Hungary occupied by Germany or allied to Germany? You seem to 
>be trying to offload things to Hungary's wartime ally Germany instead
>of responsibly facing reality.

Being allied does not mean that your ally can occupy you without your
consent.  The US was an ally of the Soviets, too, but I doubt they meant
to be occupied by them.  (BTW, being allied with Stalin is nothing to
brag about, either!  Especially since the US had a bit more choice about
it, than the small neighbors of Nazi Germany.)  In any case, the fact
that Hitler decided to occupy Hungary while holding Horthy incommunicado
in a German castle) shows how trusted an ally Hungary was to Germany.

> Like Romania, Hungary allied with Germany 
>and we should both live up to the negative moral implications of those 
>alliances. Hopefully our respective countries will never be in that 
>position again of choosing to ally with naked evil. 

To me neither countries had much choice about alliances when even Stalin
was allied with Hitler and the other Western powers were too far for any
practical use as the example of Poland proved.

When Hitler and Stalin eventually got at each other's troat, Hitler
seemed like the lesser of two evils and on a winning track.  Not to
mention that he also was able to manipulate the hopes of both countries
better.  As to the negative moral implications of those alliances, well,
I don't think it's any more negative than being allied with Stalin.
Politics makes strange bedfellows.  Wars even more so.

Joe

In >  () writes:

>T.M.Lutas > wrote:
>>
>>My father (who was born and raised in Transylvania) knows several people
>>who were, at various interactions with the Austro-Hungarian or Hungarian
>>state, subjected to Magyarization. Very simply there names were changed
>>because it was a Hungarian writing them down and he decided to Magyarize
>>them without the person's consent. It happened in the army and it happened
>>in the schools. All of a sudden poof! you become a Magyar. And when the
>
>You, as many Romanians, like to make this practice look much worse than it
>was when always assuming ill will behind it.

It was a concerted policy with a well defined purpose.  And it was not
directed only against Romanians.  It's also a proven historical fact,
and your attempts to rationalize it are ludicrous, at best.

What happened to the hundreds of thousands of Romanians whose villages
and towns remained to Hungary after WWI?  The few thousands who're still
considering themselves Romanians today have Hungarian names and speak
Hungarian much better than Romanian (that is, if they can speak
Romanian at all).  Yeah, I have no doubt they've been magyarized for
their own good.

>Were the American
>immigration officials ill willed, too, when they "made" Smith-s out of
>Schmidt-s, Johnson-s out of Johansen-s?

You know as well as myself that comparisons between Transylvania and the
USA are bogus.  From all the points of view.  Try something more credible
next time.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

T.M.Lutas > wrote:
>
>My father (who was born and raised in Transylvania) knows several people
>who were, at various interactions with the Austro-Hungarian or Hungarian
>state, subjected to Magyarization. Very simply there names were changed
>because it was a Hungarian writing them down and he decided to Magyarize
>them without the person's consent. It happened in the army and it happened
>in the schools. All of a sudden poof! you become a Magyar. And when the

You, as many Romanians, like to make this practice look much worse than it
was when always assuming ill will behind it.  Were the American
immigration officials ill willed, too, when they "made" Smith-s out of
Schmidt-s, Johnson-s out of Johansen-s?  Or how about Sincai himself,
who spelled his name "Sinkay" in his own, self-published book in 1805,
even though it was written in Latin ("Elementa Lingae Daco-Romanae")?
How was a Hungarian notary to know the "correct" Romanian spelling of an
illiterate peasant or shepherd who signed his name with an X?  He
obviously used the rules of Hungarian language to "transliterate" the
*sound* of the name as close as he could. From this point of view,
"Sinkay" makes sense for Sincai, especially at the age when Romanian
literary language was still Cyrillic, pausing yet another layer of
transliteration problem.

It's always a problem when using one language to write down the name
that's native in another.  Even if both use alphabets derived from
Latin.  The main problem here presents itself as follows: "Do you want
your name pronounced in the new surrounding as closely as it is in your
native surrounding, or do you want the spelling stay the same?"  In the
former case, the spelling will often have to change, in the latter your
name will be pronounced differently.  People may decide to follow one
path or the other, on their own, without any coersion.  That's how
Hungarian immigrants to the US may now spell their name as "Szabo" or
"Sabo", "Nemeth", or "Namath", for instance.  My uneducated guess is
that formerly the trend was mostly to preserve the sounding of the name
in the new environment, the more recent trend is to preserve the
spelling.

To assume forced Americanization from those earlier naming trends is as 
absurd as your allegation of forced Magyarization.

Joe Pannon

T.M.Lutas > wrote:
>
>I'm actually a very busy activist. The hungarian stuff I try to do as
>little as possible since I agree, it shouldn't be the central issue of
>any ideology (take that PUNR, PRM, UDMR). It's just that when the issue
>pops up I can't seem to hold myself back too well.

Nevertheless you ought to restrain your tendency of Hungarian bashing
because it detracts from your otherwise valiant efforts opposing the
Iliescu regime.  Equating UDMR with the extremist Romanian parties (just
as Tokes with Funar!) seriously discredits even your worthy efforts.

Joe

Elkezdtem a gyuejtemenyemet az ingyen szolgaltatasokrol is. Akit
erdekel, latogasson meg:

*******************************
www.trade-center.com/pro
*******************************


       ~                  ~                                  
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              _/~ _/ ~_/_/ _/  _/   ~   _/       _/   ~     ~ 
         ~   _/_/_/  _/ _/_/  _/~_/_/  _/_/~    _/ ~    ~    
~           _/  _/  _/ ~ _/  _/ ~ _/~ _/       _/        ~   
           _/  _/  _/   _/ ~ _/_/_/  _/_/_/  ~_/_/_/         
      ~      ~                  ~     ~         ~            


                http://trade-center.com/pro/
                

In article >,
Brigitta Bali > wrote:
 (Gabor Barsai) comesback:
>:It take one to know one. Me Wonga-Taa, King of Jungle.
>
>Oooooooo, what an origanal response! You Pawn of Bic, low on fluid. "It
>take one to know one." This is a good ole grade 2 comeback.

Well, yeah. I have to make sure it's at your IQ level, love of my loins. Unlike
you, most of us got out of grade 2.

>Goober weakly comesback:
>:But sugar-tush, how should I know what you think? Maybe if you'd learn
>:English, you'd be more effective in your efforts at making up a logical
>:sentence.
>
>Sorry Goober, Joe Pannonymous, and others were quick to understand,
>appreciate and laugh up a storm at my Bland Gland brand on your sour-tush.
>Logic had nothing to do with it -- a better wit than you have, had much
>more to do with it -- get it? Wit!

But I thought you only needed to be appreciated by your peers...how sad you
are to have to bring Mr. Pannon into this. Is he your peer? Does he live in the
Pseudo Republic of Pseudo Poetry (PROPP)?

>Goober claims:
>:BTW, you never wrote a poem in Hungarian or French.
>
>Yeh, sure, right, tell it to my publishers -- better yet, tell it to your
>publishers. What's this? the third time you've posted this line? Haven't
>you got anything new to post?

I guess, I should also tell Hitler's publishers that Adolf wrote novels?
Getting published don't mean a thing - since what you and lack is zing.
Statistics also get published, and so do computer programs. You're much less 
exciting than statistics.

>:I didn't see such an educated responce to Wally's famous "dried up dumb
>:cunt" comment.
>
>An educated response to an analpit aka stupid prick like you would be a
>waste -- sorta like spreading fertile manure on a mall parking lot. The
>results would be -- nothing.

So why are you responding?

Pseudo poets living pseudo dadaist lives in a pseudo country...what sad
pseudo people you are.

The Friendly Vital Organ

Szeretnek Budapesti csaladtagjaimmal az Internet-en keresztul kapcsolatot
tartani.  Ok ott nem tudjak hogy kihez forduljanak, en pedig csak az iSYS 
kft.-t talaltam, akik csak uzletekkel akarnak dolgozni, nagy penzert.

Ki van meg Budapesten az iSYS mellett Internet szolgaltato, aki tudna elerheto
aron maganosok szamara kapcsolt vonali Internet megoldast nyujtani?

Frank Kaufman

 wrote:

>I am looking for a hungarian newspaper from hungary on the net.
>Does anybody know if this is available. If so where?
>Thanks.

>Szeretnek magyar budapesti ujsagot olvasni.

Hi,
if you visit my homepage, you can find some interesting links to
hungarian clubs, newspapers, etc.
Ha meglatogatod az oldalamat, ott talalhatsz nehany erdekes magyar
vonatkozasu kapcsolast is:

*******************************
www.trade-center.com/pro
*******************************

angel

Ki  tudja, hogy merre lehet a nemetnyelvue 1956-os filmet a cimmel:
UNGARN IN FLAMMEN  megszerezni? (Lehetoeleg videon)

Wer weiss, wo man den deutschen Dokumentarfilm ueber 1956  mit dem
Titel: UNGARN IN FLAMMEN besorgen kann? (Moeglichst auf Video)

Who knows where to find the german documentary film about 1956 with
the title: UNGARN IN FLAMMEN? ( maybe on video)
 
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              _/~ _/ ~_/_/ _/  _/   ~   _/       _/   ~     ~ 
         ~   _/_/_/  _/ _/_/  _/~_/_/  _/_/~    _/ ~    ~    
~           _/  _/  _/ ~ _/  _/ ~ _/~ _/       _/        ~   
           _/  _/  _/   _/ ~ _/_/_/  _/_/_/  ~_/_/_/         
      ~      ~                  ~     ~         ~            


                http://trade-center.com/pro/
                

http://www.mhirlap.hu/
http://www.hvg.hu/
http://www.idg.hu/internetto/
http://www.figyelo.hu
http://www.nepszabadsag.hu

*****************************************************************
* MOSONYI Zsolt                                                 *
* Budapest, Hungary                                             *
* Phone: +36-1-1753322                                          *
* Fax: +36-1-1562989                                            *
* E-mail:                                  *
* WWW: http://nimbus.elte.hu/~mzsolt                            *
*****************************************************************

On 24 May 1996  wrote:

> I am looking for a hungarian newspaper from hungary on the net.
> Does anybody know if this is available. If so where?
> Thanks.
> 
> Szeretnek magyar budapesti ujsagot olvasni.
> 
>