I heard something about Hungary writing-off about $300 million of
Russia`s debts for one Mig-29. Wouldn`t that be one squadron? Surely a F117A
is priced at around that mark; a Mig-29 (depending on its age and therefore
the level of modern equipment incorporated) I wouldn`t expect to be worth more
than around $20 million each (?). And the statement that Hungary are receiving
this military equipment for free is just rubbish. Initially Hungary must have
supplied Russia with something to run their debt up to such a level. So Hungary
was never payed, leaving them out of pocket for a sum of nearly $1 billion. So
anything received from Russia in exchange for debt write-offs are not free in
the long run, but are better than anything that Hungary hope for from Russia
in the near future. (Though, if true, $300 milion for a Mig is a bit steep!)



Karcsi

A hypothetical Question:

        If my father were to return to Hungary after retiring, how much tax
would he be liable to pay to the Hungary government on his British pension?

Karcsi

Hi! Does it come through email?

$1 million was the price of just one plane, let's not exagerate.

In article >, zcapl74
> writes:
>         I heard something about Hungary writing-off about $300 million of
> Russia`s debts for one Mig-29. Wouldn`t that be one squadron? Surely a F117A
> is priced at around that mark; a Mig-29 (depending on its age and therefore
> the level of modern equipment incorporated) I wouldn`t expect to be worth
more
> than around $20 million each (?). And the statement that Hungary are
receiving
> this military equipment for free is just rubbish. Initially Hungary must have
> supplied Russia with something to run their debt up to such a level. So
Hungary
> was never payed, leaving them out of pocket for a sum of nearly $1 billion.
So
> anything received from Russia in exchange for debt write-offs are not free in
> the long run, but are better than anything that Hungary hope for from Russia
> in the near future. (Though, if true, $300 milion for a Mig is a bit steep!)
>
>
>
> Karcsi

Wow! That's really great news, cause if the former Romanian prime minister
Petre Roman was blamed for his Airbus deal, now he can't possibly be blamed
for the less famous Mig-29 deal. For those who ignore it, in 1990 Romania
purchased 30 brand new Mig-29s for just $1 million. Looks like Hungary
has more money to spend for its army...

Constantin

I see in today's Mozaik several references to the above, with the short
explanation that this involves granting `national minorities the right to set
up
autonomous organizations'.

Would someone, please, care to expand on this?  Does the recommendation define
this any further, or are there real-life examples around Europe which are
understood as models?

--Greg

In article > Constantin Donea,
 writes:
>Wow! That's really great news, cause if the former Romanian prime minister
>Petre Roman was blamed for his Airbus deal, now he can't possibly be blamed
>for the less famous Mig-29 deal. For those who ignore it, in 1990 Romania
>purchased 30 brand new Mig-29s for just $1 million. Looks like Hungary
>has more money to spend for its army.

We got -I think 28- Mig 29 in the value of 800 million $ in ex-
change for Russian Comecon debt. It was in1993.

Your $1 million / Mig 29 price sounds incredibly good..I've read of
an axtraordinarily good deal when  Malaysia bought 22 or 24 Mig
29 for $400 million..

Just few weeks ago the Hungarian prime minster, Gyula  Horn
was in Moskau. He and Jelcin agreed that Hungary will get
something for the remaining $800 million Russian debt, partially,
in the value of $300 million, military equipment. I strongly
doubt that the Hungarian government wants still more Migs,
but we have to take what we get...

Tamas

In article > Constantin Donea,
 writes:
>$1 million was the price of just one plane, let's not exagerate.

Not by chance $1 billion (with B) for 30 Migs ? That would
sound much reasonable...

Tamas

An interesting article about opinions about Slovako-Magyar relations
depending on region of Slovakia has been published in yesterday's
SME. After a study of the Statistical Office of Slovak Republic,
Slovaks who live together with Magyars in nationally mixed territories
in Slovakia are more positive about their relations with Magyars than
the Slovaks from northern parts of the country.

Some figures:
                       relations are: GOOD    BAD
Opinions among Northern Slovaks        60%    30%
Opinions among Southern Slovaks        80%    10%
Opinions among Slovakian Magyars       90%     5%

Moreover, although in all the three groups, the prevalent opinion was
that nobody pays for others, there is 10% more people among Northern
Slovaks who believe Slovaks pay for Magyars compared to Slovaks who
live with Magyars and know what they are speaking about.

To the question of tolerance (Would you like to have a neighbour who
is of the other nationality) answered NO 67% people in Northern Slovakia,
but only 25% Slovaks and less than 10% of Magyars in the mixed territories.

Article can be accessed at URL
http://savba.savba.sk/logos/news/sme/data/index200395.html#39
Article is in Slovak only. SME and many other Slovakian dailies
can be accessed online since about 6 months.

(All disclaimers apply.)

Roman Kanala

Csaba Zoltani (ACISD/CTD) wrote:

: 5. "Purchasing" inferior equipment may be a comradely thing to do for
: those in power in Budapest, but it certainly goes contrary to the
: interests of the people of Hungary.

The same contrariness can be imputed to a government that indulges in
pie-in-the-sky dreaming about future repayment from the bankrupt junkyard which
is Russia.

--Greg

RE: comments from Greg and George on the "free Mig29's".


On 20 Mar Greg Grose wrote:

<To expect the Russians to pay off debt to Hungary is anything other
<than junk

George Antony states that:

<There is little point in getting superior equipment if there is nobody
<to fly them, no money for fuel and none for ammunition for training.


But, of course, if that is so, what is the point of getting MiG29's,
which use more fuel, need more repairs and need to be replaced much
sooner than planes from the West?

Several other points need to be noted:

1. It is not unrealistic to expect Russian to repay its debt over time.
With the economic situation there, it has to show that it is a credit
worthy customer. It certainly would score points with the World Bank,
IMF or western banks in rescheduling its debt if it showed an attempt in
living up to its obligations.

If Finland, or for that matter Hungary, could repay its debt, so can
Russia. It has to be held to the same standard.

2. To state that the Migs are free, misrepresents the facts. They are
not free. They are overpriced. They are inferior in quality. It is
equipment which Russia has difficulty in selling.

3. Why should Hungary become the dumping ground for obsolete equipment?
Such materiel would put its soldiers lives in harm's way. Potential
aggressors would not be impressed, or indeed, deterred.

4. If money is to be spent for defense, it must be for equipment which
has the potential of deterring any adversary. Military history is
replete with examples where a well led, numerically inferior but well
equipped force could overcome a numerically superior adversary.

5. "Purchasing" inferior equipment may be a comradely thing to do for
those in power in Budapest, but it certainly goes contrary to the
interests of the people of Hungary.

C.K. ZOLTANI

Jane's Intelligence Review, Volume 7, #1, has an extensive report on
"Romania's Intelligence Services-Purges and Politics". Here follows a
short excerpt which touches on the lives of the large Hungarian minority
of Transylvania.

".....Although precise information is still lacking, it now seems as if
the SRI (Romanian Intelligence Service) controversial political
intervention in, and manipulation of, Romanian politics were entrusted
by Magureanu to a secret and officially non-existent ancillary
intelligence service code named UM-0215. Formally known as the
Intelligence Directorate of the Internal Affairs Ministry, UM-0215, was
set up by February 1990, two months before the SRI was formally created.
Founded by Gelu Voican Voilescu, another extremely controversial figure
who later publicly admitted to having been involved with the execution
of Ceausescu, UM-0215 was implicated in the campaign to rehabilitate the
Securitate in 1990. This involved the infiltration of former Securitate
personnel at all levels of the post-communist power structure in Romania
1990 onwards; the orchestration of the violent anti-opposition rampages
by miners in Bucharest in 1990 and 1991; the secret sponsorship of
violent anti-Hungarian, ultra-nationalist and neo-communist political
parties from as early as 1990; the covert use of Securitate files to
blackmail and publicly discredit opposition political parties and their
leaders during and after the campaigns for the 1990 and 1992 general
elections in Romania; the hijacking of the elections through ballot
rigging and other illegal practices; and, the regular monitoring and
periodic harassment of all actual and potential organized opposition to
the ruling neo-communist party in the country. In addition, UM-0215 has
also been reportedly involved in all manner of criminal activities,
notably the multi-billion swindle carried out by Caritas a notorious
cover organized by the ultra-nationalist and Securitate-created Romanian
National Unity Party (RNUP).

......

 wrote
> Temakor: Re: Southern Slovakia in 1938-19 ( 60 sor )
> Idopont: Mon Mar 20 06:57:52 EST 1995 HUNGARY #257:

>...and how about Trianon?
>I heard that Hungary agreed with Trianon. Am I wrong?

Yes, Jozef, you are.  Hungary signed the Trianon trety because it had no
choice.  Czechoslovakia agreed to the Vienna arbitration because it would not
seriously discuss returning Hungarian-inhabited areas it received under
Trianon.

You say about the present mistreatment of Hungarians in Slovakia:

>... it was only a consequence. You could read about a reason - >how Magyars
behaved to Slovaks in time of >WWII in this area.

Jozef:  You mean to say that the present mistreatment of Hungarians in
Slovakia is a result of past grievances by Slovaks?  So, instead of being
guided by principles of democracy and fairness, Slovakia is pursuing an
agenda of revenge and retribution of 50-year old hurts?  This is not the way
to join the family of European democracies.

Since you mentioned it, let's talk about the treatment of minorities in
Hungary vs. Slovakia.  A telling example could be the issue of bilingual
highway signs in minority areas: in Hungary they are present all over; signs
in German, Slovak, Rumanian etc in areas inhabited by such nationalities.
 But in Slovakia the matter was the subject of intense parliamentary debate
with near violent outcomes.  (I don't know if eventually the
nationalistic/postcommunist leadership yielded some ground, but its
resistance to the idea was typical.)

Instead of trying to justify present wrongdoing by citing past injustices, we
should all try to find common ground in addressing the issues of the present
so the future should be better for all.

Ferenc Novak

After posting this info on Slovak and CR listservs, I now understand it may
be written in hungarian.  If there are any translators on the net, I would
greatly appreciate any information you may give me.  Thank you!

I have recently uncovered what I believe is my Grandfather's birth
certificate or registry.  It is very old and worn so I have some
difficultly making out each word.  In addition the handwriting, while very
beautiful, is somewhat hard to decipher. I recognize a few words:  My
Grandfather's family name Czomak (here it was Zomack), Yanos I believe for
John (his name here), and Anna Kulyha was his mother's name.  While much of
the information I have references his birthplace to be in Austria, I
believe he was born in 1890 in the village of Sopkovce, Slovakia.  Can I
assume this is the Szopkocz written on this certificate?  All of this
discovery has greatly heightened the anticipation of my May trip with my
mother (Yanos' eldest daughter) to Slovakia, Hungary and the Czech
Republic.

I've done my best to decipher the text on this certificate.  I've included
it below.  Any help, as always, is greatly appreciated.  Thank you all.

Az olvasoknak u lv az Urban!

Epevjes (handwritten next to the word egyhazmegye)
Zempleu (handwritten next to the word megye)

Alolirt (Alolivt?) hiteles bizonysagot teszek arrol, nogy a szopkocz i gor.
kath. Egyhaz

KERESZTELTEK ES BERMALTAK

anyakonyveben III kotet -- lapon 6 szam alatt ezer nyolczszaz kilenczeven
evrol szorol-szora

kovetkezok talaltattak.

Under words that include: ev, hava, napja is handwritten -- 1890 marcz
23.25

Under words: keresztelo es hermalo lelkesz is handwritten -- Kristof Enore
helybelr lehcesz

Under neme is -- Yanos (John?)

Under szulei are words that include: hitvallasa es polgari allasca is
handwritten --Czomak flles gbz. telkes es Kulyha Anna rk. neje

Under words that include: szarmazasi es lakhelye, utcza haz... is
handwritten -- Szopkocz 20 cz(?)

Under words: keresztszulei veze-tek  ?es kereszineve, hitvallasa. polgari
allasa es lakasa is handwritten -- Hodov, Mihaly gk. Siscsak Gyoxgz(?) na
Sedau Zsnzscrimer (?)

Minek nagyobb ?nteleul kladtam ??? saiat alairasommal es a hivatalos
pecsettel ellatott oklevelet.

Next to Kelt is handwritten -- Homonuau 1912 eri oktober ho 28 az(?)

There is a stamped circular seal with an ornate cross in the middle
followed by what seems to be a signature: Knaka Fstvau(?) gk. esperes -
lebkeaz(?)

In article >, I ) wrote:
>
> An interesting article about opinions about Slovako-Magyar relations
> depending on region of Slovakia has been published in yesterday's
> SME. After a study of the Statistical Office of Slovak Republic,
> Slovaks who live together with Magyars in nationally mixed territories
> in Slovakia are more positive about their relations with Magyars than
> the Slovaks from northern parts of the country.
>
Sorry, I forgot to mention the data was collected exactly one year ago
from now, in March 1994. That means, still under Meciar II.


A couple of months of democracy had, in my opinion, a positive influence.
For example, a politician, who charged the democratic government for
the road sign law to be anti-Slovak (if I remember it correctly, he
said "such a government *"), a couple of months later signs a friendship
treaty in Paris...

Democracy is a wonderful thing.

Roman Kanala

Greg Grose writes:
>
> Csaba Zoltani (ACISD/CTD) wrote:
>
> : 5. "Purchasing" inferior equipment may be a comradely thing to do for
> : those in power in Budapest, but it certainly goes contrary to the
> : interests of the people of Hungary.
>
> The same contrariness can be imputed to a government that indulges in
pie-in-the-sky dreaming about future repayment from the bankrupt junkyard which
> is Russia.

      England won the Battle of Britain during the Second World War
 using equipment far inferior to that owned by the Nazis at the time.
    The chief fighter airplane
for the British airforce was the Hawker Hurricane,  the last
canvas and steel-frame fighter plane of the war. The chief
torpedo bomber of the British Naval air force was the Fairey
Swordfish, (nicknamed the 'Stringbag' because it was a fabric and wood
biplane).
           The legendary Spitfire figher was  in the beginning of
its development and did not become superior to German fighers such as
the Messerschmitt and Focke-Wulfe until two years or so after the air
battle was won. It is little known that more German airplanes were
downed by Hurricanes than by Spitfires even though the Hurricane went
out of service long before the end of the war.
 Among others, the reasons were: motivation (British
pilots were fighting a back-to-the-wall battle for their homeland);
superior tactics; superior use of radar, and the stupidity of Hitler
and Goering who ordered the bombing of cities and civilians in lieu of
airfields and fighter storage hangars, which was killing the British
until then.

 Thus the Mig-29s are not a waste of money because their engines do
not last and they use lots of fuel.
    In a war, where airplanes are
expected to have a short service life, the length of life of the
engine is relativeily unimportant. When a plane is shot down, it
does not matter whether the engine was good for another 2000 hours or
good for another 200.    What is important is if the plane can perform
as well or better in the hands of well-trained people than any
conceivable enemy can perform, for the short time that the
plane and pilot are alive.

   In this respect the Migs can do very well against any conceivable
European enemy.  If Germany and France choose to invade Eastern
Europe, it ceases to matter whether you use Migs or F-117s. No East
European country could match the economic power of the Great States,
as two world wars have already proved.  The only tactic against them
is guerilla warfare inside a conquered country, for which Migs and
F-117s are unnecessary.
  I'd say the Mig deal is an intelligent one under present circumstances.

    Jan George Frajkor                      _!_
 School of Journalism, Carleton Univ.      --!--
 1125 Colonel By Drive                       |
 Ottawa, Ontario                            /^\
 Canada K1S 5B6                         /^\     /^\
       /   
  o: 613 788-7404   fax: 613 788-6690  h: 613 563-4534

 writes:
>
>   wrote
> Temakor: Re: Southern Slovakia in 1938-19 ( 60 sor )
> Idopont: Mon Mar 20 06:57:52 EST 1995 HUNGARY #257:
>
> >...and how about Trianon?
> >I heard that Hungary agreed with Trianon. Am I wrong?
>
> Yes, Jozef, you are.  Hungary signed the Trianon trety because it had no
> choice.  Czechoslovakia agreed to the Vienna arbitration because it would not
> seriously discuss returning Hungarian-inhabited areas it received under
> Trianon.
     Ferenc Novak

    Unfortunately, Jozef is right.  The Vienna Arbitration was was
part of the Munich agreement, which we all know was imposed on
Czechoslovakia by the agreement of the Axis powers and Britain and
France.  Czechoslovakia had no choice.  Since Britain and France later
expressed disinterest in nominating delegattes to the panel, they left
it to Italy and Germany to complete the job, in which Czechoslovakia
had no choice.
  As for why Czechoslovakia refused to seriously disucss returning
Magyar-inhabited areas it received under Trianon, that is perhaps
because Hungary refused to seriously discuss giving up those Slovak
and ruthene-inhabited areas of Lower Slovakia (the northeastern part
of Hungary today) which it was allowed to keep by Trianon.


    Jan George Frajkor                      _!_
 School of Journalism, Carleton Univ.      --!--
 1125 Colonel By Drive                       |
 Ottawa, Ontario                            /^\
 Canada K1S 5B6                         /^\     /^\
       /   
  o: 613 788-7404   fax: 613 788-6690  h: 613 563-4534

ASSOCIATION FOR COMPUTERS AND THE HUMANITIES
         ASSOCIATION FOR LITERARY AND LINGUISTIC COMPUTING

          1995 JOINT INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE  ACH-ALLC 95

                          JULY 11-15, 1995
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA AT SANTA BARBARA, SANTA BARBARA, CALIFORNIA




************************************************************************
 IMPORTANT CONFERENCE INFORMATION *** IMPORTANT CONFERENCE INFORMATION

************************************************************************



Those of you who have submitted abstracts for this year's ACH/ALLC
Joint International Conference will be aware that the announced date
for notifying applicants was March 15, 1995. Due to unforeseen
circumstances, however, we are obliged to move the this date ahead to
APRIL 20, 1995.

The Association for Computers and the Humanities, as primary organizer
of this year's conference, apologizes for the delay. We understand
that some potential contributors to the conference program may need
to be notified earlier than April 20, in order to secure travel funds,
etc. If for such a reason you must know as soon as possible, we ask
that you contact  so that we may expedite the
processing of your abstract. Please do not contact us unless
your need is serious.

We received a strong response to this year's call for papers, and we
have every expectation that the conference program will be
excellent. I look forward to seeing you in Santa Barbara this summer,
and thank you for your patience and understanding.


Nancy Ide, President
Association for Computers and the Humanities

Attila Gabor writes:
>
> On Mon, 20 Mar 1995, zcapl74 wrote:



> >       Russian aircraft are not regarded very highly due to their old
> > electrical technology. But recently (namely the SU-31 (?)) Russian aircraft
>>have started to be modernised with fly-by-wire controls, et cetera. I am sure
> > that once up-to-date, they will be very keen competitors due to their
> > very superior manuverability to any fighter in the world.
> >
> > Karcsi
>
          I once read an analysis of fly-by-wire (a misnomer... since
it is the opposite... it means sending electrical signals over a wire
to run control motors for ailerons and other surfaces, as opposed to
moving them via physical rods, wires, hydraulics etc), which almost
came to opposite conclusion. The first Migs that US forces got hold of
through capture or defection were laughed at, as it was found that
they used electronic tubes (old technology) rather than transistors
(new).  Added weight, added bulk, shorter life, slower in operation,
and all that.  This was takento mean that the Russians did not have
advanced technology.  Later, however, it was discovered that a nuclear
explosion produces EMI -- electromagnetic interference -- which in an
instant scrambles all signals going through transistors, but to which
tube technology is relatively immune.
   IN short, in a NUCLEAR war (as opposed to conventional), one good
nuke would immobilize every advanced fly-by-wire, computer-controlled,
high-tech airplane in an instant, while the old clunkers with tubes
carry on slaughtering.  No doubt there have since been ways to shield
our side's planes from EMI.  Let's not count on it.
     In my opinion, the nuclear tipped bow-and-arrow regiment is the
way to go.


    Jan George Frajkor                      _!_
 School of Journalism, Carleton Univ.      --!--
 1125 Colonel By Drive                       |
 Ottawa, Ontario                            /^\
 Canada K1S 5B6                         /^\     /^\
       /   
  o: 613 788-7404   fax: 613 788-6690  h: 613 563-4534

Am seeking names/addresses of CLOWN schools, CLOWN groups, or CLOWN
magazines in Hungary.  Also seeking names/addresses of Circuses in Hungary
and neighboring countries.  Please respond to:    
Thank you very much.

CLOWN groups? Hell, yeah. Just watch the news and you see lots of
them...lots.

On Tue, 21 Mar 1995, Renoire wrote:

> Am seeking names/addresses of CLOWN schools, CLOWN groups, or CLOWN
> magazines in Hungary.  Also seeking names/addresses of Circuses in Hungary
> and neighboring countries.  Please respond to:    
> Thank you very much.
>

Renoire wrote:

: Am seeking names/addresses of CLOWN schools, CLOWN groups, or CLOWN
: magazines in Hungary.  Also seeking names/addresses of Circuses in Hungary
: and neighboring countries.  Please respond to:    
: Thank you very much.

I suggest 

--Greg