5 ) wrote:

: Could you list the (or some of the) state-sponsored (that is not church-spons
ored)
: Hungarian-language schools in Transylvania before 1919? I'd also prefer you t
o
: restrict the list, in case it becomes too large ;-), to those of great tradit
ion,
: the ones we are proud of, are part of our culture & history and which we'd li
ke
: to keep so that we may turn back again and again towards the end of May after
 10,
: 20, 30, ... years as we promised at our graduation (Gaudeamus igitur...)

	Hi Matyas:

	My point is that ALL state-sponsored high schools in Transylvania 
were Hungarian-language (whether individual schools were great or not, I 
will leave to others to determin) before 1919.  There were exactly three 
Romanian-language high schools.  Each one of them - without exception - 
was denominational.

	I do not advocate doing unto the Hungarians as the Hungarians did 
unto us.  My reasons for this vary from the purely Christian, namely 
"turn the other cheek", to the pragmatic: if we keep "doing unto others 
before they do unto us", reconciliation is impossible.  But, when 
Hungarians demand educational rights today, I do believe that an 
acknowledgement that what happened last century was wrong would help.  
After all, if forced Magyarization was O.K. then, then why isn't forced 
Romanianization O.K. now?

	As an aside, I also think that an acknowledgement that 1867-1919 
was not an era of unadulterated Hungarian glorry is in the interest of 
the Hungarians as a whole, and of the varrious Hungarian minorities.  The 
neighboring peoples have already come to that conclussion.  Significant 
Hungarian populations live among them.  Reconciliation can only help 
those hungarian minorities develop a modus vivendi with the ethnic 
majorities.  While all sides win in ethnic peace, the weaker group wins 
disproportionately.

	Alexander

In >  (5 ) writes:

>In article >,  (Dan Pop) writes:
>|> In >  (5 ) writes:
>|> 
>|> >
>|> >Bad guess, the most important is what you consider yourself and how yoy fe
el
>|> >about it - this is not a matter of percentages. Fact is that at a certain 
point
                                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^
>|> >(actually several points) in time it was advantageous, sometimes even ques
tion of
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|> >to starve or survive, to become a Romanian even in the in the pre- 1919 
>|> >Transylvania. 
>|> 
>|> Care to give some concrete examples from pre-1919 Transylvania?
>|> This is a brand new (at least for me) theory, suggesting that the
>|> Romanian majority in pre-1919 Transylvania might have Hungarian origins
>|> and not Daco-Roman (or Slavic or whatever) origins :-)
>
>First, this is not a theory, especially not one on the origin of the Romanians
 
>currentlt living in Transylvania. The issue was "Magyarization vs. Romanizatio
n",
>whence I stated something about the origin of many Hungarian sounding "Romania
n"
>names.
>
>Second, what do you want for a concrete example? Do you want me to say somethi
ng 
>of the sort you use to, about (accidentally) having having a friend who exactl
y
>fits to the situation I'd like to demonstrate? :-(  Or alternatively I can
>describe you what the older people tell as heared from their parents (that wou
ld
>be no worse than the stories Romanians heared from their parents about the 
>horrible deeds of Hunagrians. Finally I could give you examples from the 
>Transylvanian Hungarian literature of that period. Any preferences? I hope 
>you didn't mean that I should use one of the Romanian history books for 
>source.

You were talking about several points in time were this happened, hence
suggesting that you were not referring to some isolated cases, but to
something more general.  Yet, you failed to produce any concrete example,
no matter the source.  As a matter of fact, you constantly avoid sources,
even when your opponent has some.
>
>|> 
>|> >Many did it. And most of those, as well as their descendants denied
>|> >that they had ever been Hungarians. Within a few generation nobody in the 
family 
>|> >would know the truth. 
>|> 
>|> Considering the number of Romanian citizens who declare themselves 
>|> Hungarians (and have voted with HDRU), you described some isolated cases,
>|> not a typical situation.  The Hungarian population of Romania has been
>|> constantly growing since 1918.  Could you say the same thing for the
>|> Romanian population of Hungary?
>
>If you look into some population listings, such as phone books, you will see
>that there are many people with such names, so this phenomenon is not isolated
.
>Now, why would the number of cases in which your single Hungarian ancestor
>theory holds more than the ones in which mine is true. BTW, why did all those
>people who made a mixed marriage Roamanize and not Magyarize, especially in
>a period when Transylvania was part of Hunagry?

You mean you have some phone books from the period when Transylvania was
part of Hungary?

>Odd, isn't it? Would you do that,
>that is suppose you fell in love and wanted to marry a Hungarian girl while 
>living in Romania and decide to become a Hungarian and raise your children as
>Hunagrians - thrilling?

In my block, in my home town, Galati, there were (and still are) two mixed
families, with a Hungarian husband and a Romanian wife.  The name of one
of the families is Mezei (sp?) the other is Hortolanyi.  The names of 
the children are Krisztina, Relly and Edmund.  Not exactly Romanian or
"Romanianized" names.  And Galati is not exactly in Transylvania :-)

All my Hungarian colleagues at Bucharest University had Hungarian names
(Szekely, Zsombor, Zsigmond, Asztalos, Molnar, Palfi, Csiki).  All the
Hungarian MP's I've ever heard of have Hungarian names.  How about
producing some hard facts (e.g. XX% of the phone book in Cluj
contains "Romanianized" names) instead of blowing smoke?

I do not deny the existence of isolated cases, but I've never seen any
proof of a concerted action of "Romanianization" of the Hunagarian
minority in Romania, at least not in my lifetime.

>Concerning the population growth: compare the growth of the Romanian populatio
n
>in the same period and suggest an analysis based on that.

Why?  If the Hungarians were oppressed, they would have fled.  If they were
submitted to a forced "Romanianization" process they wouldn't be Hungarians
today.  Neither of these match the hard facts: the Hungarian population
of Romania has been constantly increasing.  Contrast this with the 
Romanian population in Hungary, which is nowadays virtually extinct.

There are many explanations for a greater growth rate of the Romanian
population in Transylvania.  Hungarians migrated to all the other
corners of Romania (see my two neighbours), while Romanians migrated to
Transylvania.  Even pre-1918, the growth rate of Romanians in
Transylvania was higher than the growth rate of Hungarians, and you
could hardly blame Bucharest (or the Hungarian administration of
Transylvania) for this.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

In article >, Nagy Peter > wrote:
>
>Vilagos.  Orulok hogy sikerult talalnod egy ilyen talalo elnevezest.
>Hasznald egeszseggel.  Sot az is klassz, hogy eszreveszed: akikkel
>kapcsolatban hasznalod, azoknak ez nem tetszik.  Tehat meg nem
>vesztetted el a valosaggal minden kapcsolatodat!  :-)  (Csak nem
>megsertodni!)

Orulok, hogy ilyen oromet tudok szerezni neked.  Hogy is sertodhetnek
meg ilyesmiert?  Azt is megelegedessel nyugtazom, hogy eszrevetted
mennyire szinkronban vagyok a valosaggal.  Mit lehet ennyi bokra
mondani?  Hat, igyekszik az ember.

>Mondd (mas tema), miert nem hasznalod a rendes, teljes nevedet?  Csak
>kivancsisagbol.  En tudom a nevedet, nem arrol van szo; de nekem eddig
>ugy tunt, hogy az interneten az a szokas jarja, hogy vagy alairaskent,
>vagy az email-cim mellett szerepel a teljes nev.  Nalad miert nem?

Az Interneten mindenki olyan nevet hasznal, amilyet akar, s arra sincs
garancia, hogy ha valaki Nagy Peternek irja a nevet, akkor az valoban az
is, es nem Kis Pal, pl.  Azutan meg sokan meg az igazi e-mail cimuket
sem akarjak vilagga kurtolni, s anonim szerveren keresztul irnak
cikkeket.  Ezek utan meglep, hogy ilyen pitianer dolgokon fennakadsz,
mint amit kifogasolsz.  Foleg miutan ugyis ismered a nevemet, mint ahogy
a legtobb regebbi Internetezo magyar.

Kulonben a nevem roviditesenek nagyon egyszeru, pragmatikus oka van.
Nem akarom osszezavarni a szegeny olahokat a "Jozsi" nevvel, amikor mar
Joe-nak ismertek meg az angolul irt cikkeimbol.  Ismerve oket, valoszinu
egybol felkapnak a Jozsi nevet, s ugy hordoznak korul, mint valami
trofeat.  Persze a szokasos, WC falra valo megjegyzesekkel fuszerezve.
No, most meg vagy elegedve?  Akkor jo.

>>Erdekes lenne tudni, hogy mi serti oket jobban. A Kadar-Hitler
>>parhuzam (gy.k. Hitler-jugend) faj nekik, mert szivuk melyen
>>meg mindig kedvelik az oreget, vagy mert a jugend-en keresz-
>>tul szormenten le lettek fasisztazva.
>
>Ez jo!  :-)  Igy a stilusodbol itelve nem adok nagy jovot a mi kettonk
>diskurzusanak.  Mert mit is mondasz:  szoval ha zavarja a
>lekadarjugendezetteket az elnevezesbeli Hitler-Kadar parhuzam, akkor ez
>csak azert lehet, "mert szivuk melyen meg mindig kedvelik az oreget".  A
>lefasisztazas-vonzatot csak a "jugend"-bol veled felismerni.

Ezt viszont a Tamasnak kellett volna cimezned, mivel azt o irta.
Gondolom o erdemi valszt is ad ra. 
>
Bar a kovetkezot mar a Tamasnak latszol cimezni, erre lenne nekem is egy
kis megjegyzesem:

>Szemelyeskedo hozzaszolasod arra enged kovetkeztetni, hogy melto tagja
>lehettel volna a FORUM torzskozonsegenek a legnagyobb csetepatek idejen
>is.

Szerintem jo a meglatasod itt, mert valoban hasonlo stilusban kulminalt
a FORUM a SZALON kivalasa elott.  Viszont ugyancsak szerintem, te itt
fogalomzavarban vagy a "szemelyeskedest" illetoen.  Vagy legalabbis te
nem ugy erted a szemelyeskedes fogalmat, mint en.  Ezen nem csodalkozom,
mivel ezt nem nalad tapasztalom egyedul az otthoniak, foleg a
baloldaliak kozul.  Szerintem az nem szemelyeskedes, amikor valaki egy
csoportot celoz meg negativ megjegyzessel, mint ahogy a Tamas is tette
itt, vagy en szoktam.  Attol, hogy te a csoport tagjanak erzed magad,
meg mindig nem az.  Ugyanis egy nagyobb csoport elleni megjegyzes
legalabbis implicite magaban foglalja azt a kitetelt, hogy "tisztelet a
kivetelnek", vagy hogy "akinek nem inge ...".  Sot, ennel meg tovabb is
megyek:  azt sem veheted magad elleni szemelyeskedesnek, ha valaki
tortenetesen kedvenc politikusodat aztatja el.  Az egy elegge kozhely a
nyugati demokraciakban, hogy a kozeleti szemelyek es politikusok a
kritika szabad predai.  Ennek ellenere, annak a bizonyos FORUMos
balhenak tipikus jelensege volt az, hogy amikor en pl. Peto Ivan ketes
hattererol tettem megjegyzest, ilyen valaszokat kaptam a masik oldalrol:

  Egyebkent ha elarulod,hogy
  igaz-e,hogy Eva Braun volt a mamad,amit pedig rebesgetnek,ez a fama
  ahogy szoktad mondani,szivesen utananezek Petonek.

Ez viszont szemelyeskedes volt, s jogomban lett volna hasonlokepen
valaszolni.  Ha utananezel az archivumnak, akkor meggyozodhetsz, hogy
nem ugy valaszoltam.  Ezt csak azert hozom fel, mert leveled kisse
lekezelo stilusabol azt vettem ki, mintha az akkori stilusert szinte
csak a CSEPPSZet hibaztatnad.

Pannon J.

In article >,  > wrote:
>
>Kanadaban szulettem 63ban. Szegyelem hogy magyar vagyok.

Van egy olyan erzesem, hogy ez az erzes kolcsonos kozted es a tobbi
magyar kozott.

> Csupa fascista 
>akit ismerek Kanadaban, meg a fiatal magyarok is. Tudom hogy bistosz van 
>aki olvasza Konrad konyveit es van intellectual es meg, kepzeld el, 
>bisztos bal oldali emberrek. 

Csak nem vagy te is egyike azoknak, akik csipobol lefasisztaznak
mindenkit, aki mas velemenyen van?  Nem kellene azt a Konradot olyan
komolyan venned!

> it SZINGAPORBAN vagyok, es ugy nez ki...ugyanis, jatszunk egy 
>jatekot. Kerdezem: menyi szazalek Magyar job oldali zsido uldozo 
>fascista?

Valoszinuleg kevesebb, mint a goy uldozo zsido.  Kulonben ha annyira
baloldali erzelmu vagy, mi a fenet csinalsz Singaporban, a kapitalizmus
egyik fellegvaraban?  Fidelnek biztos nagyobb szuksege lenne rad.
Tudod, ez nekem nagyon ugy nez ki, mintha vizet predikalnal, s kozben
bort innal.  No de ha mar Szadai druszam is az USA fele kacsingat, akkor
mar semmin nem csodalkozom.

Kulonben irj nyugodtan angolul ide, ha az konnyebb, mivel az Internet
nyelve elsosorban angol.  Meg itt, ebben a news group-ban is.

>Tanar es iro vagyok...szegyelem 
>hogy csak ijen szimplan es fekete/feheren tudok vinyogni Magyarul!

No problem!  Nekem legalabbis mindig tetszett a tartalom es forma
egysege.

Pannon J.

Naturland RT based in Mosonmagyarovar has a Internet web site based from
their Canadian office.  Visit us at http://www.naturland.com/rheuma/

T. Kocsis  > wrote:
>
>Raadasul a Zetenyi-Takacs
>torvenytervezettel -szinten elvi okokbol - en sem ertettem egyet.  En a
>lampavas/kotel megoldas lelkes hive voltam. De ezt mar leirtam itt egy-
>szer.

Tamas,
en sem annak intrinzik voltaert lelkesedtem a Zetenyi torvenyert.
Egyszeruen azt jobbnak tartottam, mint a semmit, s akkor annal tobbet
nem lattam eselyes befutonak.  Azon tul, hogy egy csomo tonkretett
embernek igazsagot szolgaltattak volna, azt is remeltem a torvenytol,
hogy legalabb valami visszavonulasfelere kesztette volna a regi
nacsalnyikokat mielott ujra nekibatorodnak.  Azt hiszem ehhez nem volt
szukseg lampavasakra.  De mivel az egesz elmaradt, s a regi elftarsak
ujra verszemet kaptak, lehet hogy egyszer meg bekovetkeznek az altalad
megjosolt lampavasak ha egyszer elfogy a jo nep turelme.

P.J.

In the news:
>
>POLISH ELECTION UPDATE. Polish President Lech Walesa said in Tarnow on
>12 October that if he wins the presidential elections, he will return to
>his idea of privatization ... etc.
>
>... Aleksander Hall and Artur Balazs,
 leaders of the Conservative Party and Peasant-Christian
>Party, respectively, said that six to eight presidential candidates
>should withdraw from the race so that the right-wing candidate Hanna
>Gronkiewicz-Waltz could win, Polish dailies reported on 13 October. --
>Jakub Karpinski

What's that guy with the Hungarian last name (Balazs) doing in Polish 
politics?  This sounds unheard of to me!  Does anybody have a background 
info on this guy?  Just curious ...

Joe

Subject: Re: Of Language - was The Kate Salter...

|>Wally Keeler > wrote:
|>>What!?!? Romania is Romania is Romania, except in English, in which case
|>>it is Rude-Mania. Isn't this what the well-Hungary call them also? You're
|>>well-Hungary aren't you Joe?

|Joe Pannonescu > wrote:
|>Yes, yes, yes, Wally.  But please don't interrupt me right now; I am
|>having fun with another thread that requires all my concentration.
|>(Who would have believed that these Romanians have a sense of humor, after
|>all! Wow!)

Oali Chilar wrote:
|Well, if you're so well-Hungary, isn't that just an ethnic way of saying 
|you're low-down?

Joe Pannonescute wrote:
Unless I'm lying on my back watching a parade of Ottoman women pass by, in
which case I become Glad the Impaler.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Subject: Re: Of Language - was The Kate Salter...

>Wally Keeler > wrote:
>>What!?!? Romania is Romania is Romania, except in English, in which case
>>it is Rude-Mania. Isn't this what the well-Hungary call them also? You're
>>well-Hungary aren't you Joe?

Joe Pannonescu > wrote:
>Yes, yes, yes, Wally.  But please don't interrupt me right now; I am
>having fun with another thread that requires all my concentration.
>(Who would have believed that these Romanians have a sense of humor, after
>all! Wow!)

Well, if you're so well-Hungary, isn't that just an ethnic way of saying 
you're low-down?
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Subject: Re: Of Language - was The Kate Salter...

(|>Wally Keeler > wrote:
(|>>What!?!? Romania is Romania is Romania, except in English, in which
(|>>case it is Rude-Mania. Isn't this what the well-Hungary call them
(|>>also? You're well-Hungary aren't you Joe?

(|Joe Pannonescu > wrote:
(|>Yes, yes, yes, Wally.  But please don't interrupt me right now; I am
(|>having fun with another thread that requires all my concentration.
(|>(Who would have believed that these Romanians have a sense of humor,
(|>after all! Wow!)

(Oali Chilar wrote:
(|Well, if you're so well-Hungary, isn't that just an ethnic way of saying 
(|you're low-down?

Joe Pannonescute wrote:
(Unless I'm lying on my back watching a parade of Ottoman women pass by,
(in which case I become Glad the Impaler.

Joe! Joe! Get a grip on yourself! 
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Subject: Re: Of Language - was The Kate Salter...

=(|>Wally Keeler > wrote:
=(|>>What!?!? Romania is Romania is Romania, except in English, in which
=(|>>case it is Rude-Mania. Isn't this what the well-Hungary call them
=(|>>also? You're well-Hungary aren't you Joe?

=(|Joe Pannonescu > wrote:
=(|>Yes, yes, yes, Wally.  But please don't interrupt me right now; I am
=(|>having fun with another thread that requires all my concentration.
=(|>(Who would have believed that these Romanians have a sense of humor,
=(|>after all! Wow!)

=(Oali Chilar wrote:
=(|Well, if you're so well-Hungary, isn't that just an ethnic way of saying 
=(|you're low-down?

=Joe Pannonescute wrote:
=(Unless I'm lying on my back watching a parade of Ottoman women pass by,
=(in which case I become Glad the Impaler.

Vali Killer wrote:
=Joe! Joe! Get a grip on yourself! 

Wallym Oali Vali, this is what they call a JoeJob!

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Subject: Re: Of Language - was The Kate Salter...

8=(|>Wally Keeler > wrote:
8=(|>>What!?!? Romania is Romania is Romania, except in English, in which
8=(|>>case it is Rude-Mania. Isn't this what the well-Hungary call them
8=(|>>also? You're well-Hungary aren't you Joe?

8=(|Joe Pannonescu > wrote:
8=(|>Yes, yes, yes, Wally.  But please don't interrupt me right now; I am
8=(|>having fun with another thread that requires all my concentration.
8=(|>(Who would have believed that these Romanians have a sense of humor,
8=(|>after all! Wow!)

8=(Oali Chilar wrote:
8=(|Well, if you're so well-Hungary, isn't that just an ethnic way of saying 
8=(|you're low-down?

8=Joe Pannonescute wrote:
8=(Unless I'm lying on my back watching a parade of Ottoman women pass by,
8=(in which case I become Glad the Impaler.

8Vali Killer wrote:
8=Joe! Joe! Get a grip on yourself! 

Joe Panting Escu wrote:
8Wally Oali Vali, this is what I call a JoeJob!

Now thats using your head!
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In Sep 1995, many people wrote:

> >> Did you follow your own advice?  The Webster lists three different
> >> spellings: Rumania, Roumania and Romania, but the last two are
> >simply
> >> pointers to the first, which seems to be the preferred spelling in
> >> English (both British and American).
> >
> >Not anymore.  Read the newspapapers published in the US, like New
> >York Times, etc. and you'll find ROMANIA.
> >It is true that Rumania was used for example in American newspapers
> >before 1950-60, but things have changed.
> 
> When exactly have they changed?  My Webster was printed in 1989.


Let's just clarify this once for good.
	Yes, up to the late 1950s, the generally accepted spelling was
Rumania.  This was in line with the pronunciation employed (even nowadays)
in French, German, Russian (not a Soviet ploy, seeing as it's always been
with an "u", even before 1917), Swedish and Dutch, among many others.  It
was even in line with the way many (less educated probably) Romanians have
called themselves for centuries ("rumi^n" -- just think of some ballads
and other such folklore).  It was not in line with the pronunciations
employed in a few other languages though, most notably Italian and yes,
Hungarian (I welcome corrections from s.c.m, but isn't it "Romanian"
translated by "Roman", with an accent either on the o or the a, I forget 
which one?)
	Then, American, and later British speakers realised that Rumania
is somewhat nonsensical, especially given the official spelling of the
country's name in the local language, which has been Romania for as long
as modern historiography can remember; let alone the conspicuous and
undeniable roman origins of the Romanian nation.  Thus ensued a period of
some 30 years or so, during which Romania gained more and more ground.
	Nowadays, many dictionaries still admit both versions; some only 
Romania.  There are two things to be taken into account when invoking the 
"according to Webster's dictionary..." argument (which, IMO, is a very 
Junior High Schoolish way of doing academic discourse): ONE, 
lexicographers are notoriously wary of dropping words from a dictionary, 
while being relatively open to adding proven neologisms (does anyone 
still use "thou" and "hast", except for the Nicene Creed and Lord's 
Prayer on Sunday mornings? - they're still in the dictionary, you know); 
and TWO, there is a good number of dictionaries that can't even be 
trusted, shocking as it sounds (Webster isn't a registered service mark, 
and you can buy "Websters" printed in Osh Kosh, Wisconsin for $1.00 at 
your local K-Mart).
	That said, the one true measure of the generally accepted 
spelling of any word is the way it shows in scholarly works, in news 
magazines, and in dailies.  I can testify based on a great number of 
books I've consulted at different times; on a weekly reading of The 
Economist and Newsweek; and a daily perusal of The Financial Times, The 
Wall Street Journal, and The New York Times: all of these established 
publications, covering a wide geographical as well as ideological 
territory, agree on Romania as the correct spelling.  In fact, a NEXIS 
search that included many other publications (the W Post, the C Tribune, 
the SF Chronicle, IHT, whatever) never returned Rumania as a response.
	I should hope this is settled now.
	Finally, I am not willing (and honestly hope that nobody else is 
either) to embark upon fighting any argument that would assert that the 
Daco-Roman continuity is bogus.  I think arguments in favour of that 
abound in such a fashion that denying said continuity is akin to saying 
that the Holocaust hasn't taken place.  That said, best reagrds and a 
good Sunday to everyone.

	-Matei Petru Muresan, who wishes that the annoying "Fight 
anti-immigration", "Colour black", and "Translate shit" threads could be 
killed just as easily.



...........................................................................
Matthew Peter Muresan, Trumbull;                         Yale-College 1996
Datae:Coll:Yalen:Nov:Port:R:P:Conn:Nov:Angl:Kal:Sep:A:D:MCMXCV:Coll:CCXCIV
...........................................................................