||Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind)
|| 22 sor
||Re: combat stripes (mind)
|| 44 sor
||Re: Haraszthy (mind)
|| 35 sor
||*FS: SZAMOS MARZIPAN (WHOLESALE)* (mind)
|| 53 sor
||I was in Slovakia (mind)
|| 80 sor
||Back from Slovakia. Thanks God. (mind)
|| 135 sor
||A map of Greater Hungary (mind)
|| 11 sor
||Re: Requiem for Demszky... (mind)
|| 22 sor
||Eva Balogh (mind)
|| 15 sor
||Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind)
|| 20 sor
||Re: Eva Balogh (mind)
|| 10 sor
|+ - ||Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind)
At 09:26 PM 5/29/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>I find this whole debate over what to call 1956 rather odd. I grew up in
>the large, Hungarian emigre community in the Hamilton/Toronto area of
>Southern Ontario. My father, because of his occupation, knew and talked to
>many members of that community about 1956. Not once did I hear anyone call
>the events of 1956 a 'szabadsagharc'. The first time I heard it was right
>here, on this newsgroup. We always called '56 a revolution. That's a
>misnomer for sure, but that's what we called it. And we will continue to
>call it that. It's not as romantic as 'freedom fighter' or 'szabadsagharc'
>but I thought we left rewriting history behind us.
Well, this is what everybody calls it and I am not even sure that it
is a misnomer. It was a revolution in the sense of "a sudden, radical, or
complete change." I just quoted the full name of the '56 Institute and you
may have noted that its title doesn't carry the name "szabadsagharc." And,
as I said God knows how many times, in conversational Hungarian you would be
laughed out of the room to call 56 "szabadsagharc." It is really pitiful
that the right has to resort to such verbal games in order to make a rather
|+ - ||Re: combat stripes (mind)
> Felado : [Australia]
> > Kornai goes on:
> > <"... token resistance offered by Hungary..">
> > <"... few actually fought..">
> A rather bad choice of words. It is obvious that some people will
> justifiably feel offended by the expression 'token resistance': it
> was anything but 'token' on the part of those who did resist.
Absolutely true. But as you say, "at the national level, armed resistance
was neither typical, nor widespread, nor significant".
> > <"...Csaba Zoltani's version...is preposterous nonsense promoted
> > <by the vast majority of '56 emigres who were brave enough to emigrate
> > <but not brave enough to stand up and fight..."
> This is over the top. You have no evidence for this "vast majority". Just
> because a noisy portion of 56ers in the US may well fit that description,
> there is no reason to generalize their behaviour to all.
I accept this criticism. What I tried to say, and said rather badly, was
that (a) the vast majority emigrated rather than fought (far be it from me
to condemn this behavior, I think it was a smart choice) (b) some people
pretend the vast majority deserve combat stripes. It does not follow that
(c) the vast majority awarded combat stripes to themselves, and I apologize
for my hasty wording.
As for the larger issues, I think your analysis of how a vocal minority tried
to monopolize 56 is entirely on target. What these people miss is the obvious
fact that Hungary made peace with Ka1da1r and his successors, even to the
extent of electing a genuine padded coat as their Prime Minister. Is this
goood? Probably not. But it is a fact, and one that is far more interesting
to analyze than the (lack of) troop movements in November 1956.
While we are at it, Zsargo1 Ja1nos, who obviously didn't read the thread from
the beginning, asks for how I would define "tough resistance". As he is fully
aware, Hungary had a large standing army, with artillery, tanks, bomber and
fighter airplanes, and this army was not engaging in battle with the invading
Soviets. A decade earlier the occupying Germans put up "tough resistance"
against the Soviets pushing into Hungary. Budapest was taken street by street,
corner by corner, and one would expect that a nation defending its own soil
can do a better job than an occupying force. As many have argued, there was
no time for this. I accept this explanation. What I do not accept is the myth
that there was full-fledged resistance, a "szabadsa1gharc".
|+ - ||Re: Haraszthy (mind)
In article >, says...
>Count Agoston Haraszthy, from the southern Balaton area, was, apparently,
>one of the founders of the modern Californian wine industry. In 1856 he
>founded the Buena Vista Winery in Sonoma Valley, California. I visited
>the place last February, but does anyone know anything about this
>interesting chap? BTW did Haraszthy (or anyone else) try to keep any of
>the Hungarian wine making traditions alive when he migrated to the USA
>(I mean: is there something like an *American Tokaji*, or similar, these
Here is another interesting detail in Count Agoston Haraszthy's very
interesting life. Supposedly he had to leave Hungary as a result of his
involvement in activities during the 1848 revolts in Europe. He came to
southern Wisconsin shortly after it became a state in 1848, and former Indian
lands were opened to white settlement. He was one of the original settlers of
Sauk City, Wisconsin, on the Wisconsin River about 20 miles northwest of the
state capital in Madison. There he founded a vinyard and winery on a large
west-facing hill along the river. Local sources say he brought with him
considerable knowledge of Hungarian viticulture, but with different soil and a
shorter growing season the results were less than he expected. After some years
he sold all his holdings here and went to California.
Today the vinyards and winery he founded are still in operation, under the name
"Wollersheim Winery." Each fall they host a large harvest festival, including a
well-attended grape stomping contest. His name is well-remembered in the area,
and at least one plaque commemorates his pioneering efforts.
|+ - ||*FS: SZAMOS MARZIPAN (WHOLESALE)* (mind)
Subject: *FS: SZAMOS MARZIPAN (WHOLESALE)*
Keywords: Marzipan, Chocolate, For Sale, Hungary, Candy
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X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
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|+ - ||I was in Slovakia (mind)
I was a few days in Slovakia. It was a feeling like in a sci-fi
story, but since everything was so real, so authentical, I felt
like in an absurd theater. If only it wasn't so serious, so
It was after Robert Remias was killed in his car. Mr. Remias was
a close friend to Oskar F., a former Slovak Services agent who
participated in the President's son kidnapping. Later, when he
learned in what he was complice, he publicly related the story.
He also spoke about his participation in the provocation prepared
to discredit Monsignore Balaz, the bishop of Banska Bystrica, the
case of false Swiss citizen to whom his office sold a triptyque
Robert Remias had a BMW that has been modified to work both on
gasoline and gas. The car explosed while running. Witnesses
reported a presence of a red Mercedes van allegedly belonging
to Slovak Services. The two men present have stopped the car,
one of them left it and watched the flames. When a second explosion
occured, they left the crime scene. Later, Slovak Services as
well as the Interior Minister denied the presence of their agents.
Again after the witnesses, the police came very quickly, as if they
were prepared. The Ministry of the Interior issued a press release
with an unusual readiness emphasising on "the car was modified for
gas propulsion" and that "the victim worked in a debt-exaction
firm". In reality, a gas propulsed car indeed can explose if a gas
leakage occurs and the car is cold, so that the gas-oxygen mix can
get into explosive proportions. When started, the heat may cause
an ignition and quick burning of the accumulated gas. Similar
reasoning can be applied on the gasoline part.
When moving, the motor room of the car is sufficiently ventilated
the gas to reach explosive concentrations to make that type of
accident possible. Experts have excluded the gas explosion as the
primary cause of the accident. Ministry of Interior had also issued
a statement excluding the gas as the cause of the accindent. There
was also published a testimony of the mechanician from a garage in
the Czech Republic who did a routine maintenance a few days earlier.
He said the only non-metallic piece of the whole fuel system was a
short piece of gum pipe which was solvant-resistent and metal-blinded.
He excluded the possibility that this piece could cause a loss-of-
fuel accident leading to an explosion while moving.
The police, once on the place of the crime scene, did an extremely
poor job. Several days after, pieces of the personal affairs of the
victim still were found by people. The case remains unresolved,
only Meciar or Lexa (or maybe both) have filed a libel suit against
the priest who said on the burial of Robert Remias that "the blood
of the young man is on the hands of Meciar and Lexa".
Why Robert Remias had to die? Many people in Slovakia say it was
because he served as the liaison between the key witness in the
President's son abduction case, Oskar F., who is incriminating the
Slovak Services boss and several agents, and between the outside
world. He also worked in criminal police and was able to maintain
the conspiration. Allegedly it was him who organised the meeting
of Oskar F. with the former Prime Minister J. Carnogursky who had
established an independent civil investigation committee headed
by the former Interior Affairs Minister L. Pittner.
The "investigators" obviously came to conclusion that they have
enough put in doubt the results of the previous two police
investigators and that the "hidden witnesses" that were even
presented in the Slovak TV, even if not proving the hypothesis of
a "self-abduction", at least putting in doubt the testimonies of
the previous witnesses. These were intimidated by various means,
including grenade explosion in their garden and so on.
The only obstacle to classify the affair was Oskar F. The timing
was chosen so that if Oskar F. does not have a possibility to
contact the outside world, he will either make a mistake and get
caught, or he will not appear and not be a problem to officially
stop the "investigations".
I see what I thought to be short resume of some interesting events
from my visit of Slovakia is getting a somewhat longer article, so
I prefer to cut here and continue under a different subject.
|+ - ||Back from Slovakia. Thanks God. (mind)
In Slovakia, strange things are going on these days.
Imagine, an independent citizen investigative committee is
constituted because the police does not seem to be able to
Imagine that a phone conversation between the boss of the
Slovak Services and the Minister of the Interior showing they
are actively taking measures to impeach the investigation to
Imagine that the Interior Minister does not deny the authenticity
of the record, but does so after two days.
Imagine that the parliament fails to remove him, because the
coalition deputies arranged the seance in a way there couldn't
be enough deputies present to give the 51% non-confidence vote.
Imagine that to hide the enormous scandal and an 8000 persons
anti-Meciar manifestation in Bratislava, the "independent"
Slovak TV passes as a complete surprise an anonymous "documentary"
in violation of the announced programme, not to speak about all
the journalist ethics and even plain human decency. In order to
distract the public opinion from the published evidence suggesting
a criminal association of high-ranked State officials aimed at a
sabotage of the investigation of the President's son kidnapping
and subsequent abduction, THEY have prepared a "document" full of
inconsistencies, fallacies, dirty calumnies about the alleged
participation of Michal Kovac Jr. in the Technopol fraud with
the benediction and coverage of his father, who in that time even
wasn't in the function of the Finance Minister...
After the latest news, President Kovac has filed a criminal suit
against Meciar under heavy Penal Code articles that do not allow
a fine, only imprisonment. Meciar said in the radio that Michal
Kovac did know about the abduction in advance and that if he wasn't
covered by his presidential immunity, he should face a criminal
suit for his participation in the Technopol financial fraud.
But let's go slowly - what exactly happened was that since the
willingness to classify the kidnapping affair "ad acta" became
obvious, when the testimonies of all witnesses have been put in
doubt and the friend of the key witness Oskar F. killed,
someone has sent a tape with an interesting phone conversation
to a private radio in Bratislava, Radio Twist.
The conversation, full of vulgarities, has been passed on the
air by Twist, the obscenities replaced by bips. Later, the Radio
Free Europe passed the full version of the tape. Next day,
newspapers brought the conversation. Of course, Slovenska Republika
daily brought only comments on how it's bad to listen to other
people's phone conversations.
The tape contained a phone conversation between the Minister Hudek
and the Slovak Services boss Ivan Lexa, where Hudek assures Lexa
that the investigators will be kicked to balls and Lexa says he
will kiss Hudek on his front. The second investigator indeed was
removed a couple of days later and replaced by a third one where
it was sure he will not "find evidence of the Slovak Services
involvement whenever he goes" (as said by one of the honest
The Slovak TV, which was already under fire of critics because of
dismissal of two redactors who refused to pass libelous titles
against the President and got fired on the spot, has passed a
"document" made of silly comments, testimonies of criminals,
StB agents and other psychopats. They repeated it the next day.
The General Director of the Slovak TV, Jozef Darmo, after whom
the institution was called "Darmovision", has violated the announced
programme for the third time to speak in person to the spectators
about the injustices in his life, and that he is constantly under
fire of critics. In English, "darmo" means "in vain".
Then, the Slovak Services boss Ivan Lexa brought his rapport of
activity in the plenum of the parliament. It did not contain any
fact, any detail on the finances, duties, priorities that it was
expected to bring. Instead, it was an accusation of the "enemies
of Slovakia and its sovereignity", Hungarians, Czechs, President,
the opposition parties and other internal enemies, hostile world.
Analysts have expressed a doubt the speech came from Meciar's desk,
so infantile it was. However, many people whom I spoke to expressed
a worry that this might be a signal that a countrywide witch-
burning campaign. Indeed, there were alarm news in the Slovak
press only about a month ago that Arpad Duka-Zolyomi should be
discredited and, in case of failure, physically liquidated. Also,
there was an attack with explosives against the car of Bela Bugar.
Parliamentary deputy Miklosko and journalist Toth were beaten.
But this time, the speech may mean a systemic changes like the
famous Zlata Idka speech of Meciar openly spelled out his strategy
and made famous the expression "we will roll them like a steam-
What's interesting is that the deep Slovakia is uninterested,
sleepy, apatic, resignated, as if they did not feel concerned,
already "steam-rolled". What I noticed everywhere I went were that
people reacted much like in the good old times when speaking too
much brought trouble. Fear is back. Intimidation pays. Meciar's
HZDS has already epurated the State apparat down to the museum
guardians so consequently that now they can do almost everything
they want. Civil society which was about to be formed in cities
has been paralysed by brutal, ruthless demostration of muscle.
In Slovakia, it's so.
What are the prospects ? Meciar wants to pass the "Law on the
Protection of the Republic" and already made pass the new "Law
on administration districts" through the legislation machine.
New districts were drawn in a way to create many new places
for his supporters in the State administration. In Central and
Northern Slovakia, of course. In Bratislava, in the southern
regions and in East where there are infidels, intellectuals,
free-thinkers, Magyars and other dangerous elements, the big
districts will remain.
An authentical story heard in the train: you know, there will
be a re-organisation and your place is no more needed, the guy was
said. Huh? Really? So what will I do now? You know, there would
be a solution. He was handed an inscription from to HZDS, the
Meciar's party. Very sad. It reminds the good old times. Or even
the fascist Slovak State 1939...
About a month ago, Meciar said on the HZDS congress his objective
is to transform his party into a mass organisation with at least
100'000 members. Also, he wants to win the next elections to be
held in two years and will help himself by modifying the "Elections
law" and transforming the existing proportional system into a
majority one. The new administrative districts have been drawn in
a way to maximize the effect.
So I am back from Slovakia. Thanks God.
|+ - ||A map of Greater Hungary (mind)
The discussion of maps of the Kingdom of Hungary prompted me to tell
this group about a lovely reproduction map I just received from Hungary. It
is a wall map (63 x 43 cm). The title: A Magyar Szentkorona Orszagai, 1890.
Publisher: Stiefel Kft, 1994. The material is not paper but some kind of
plastic material fastened between two molded pieces of wood. Around the map
one can find the coats of arms of all Hungarian and Croatian counties.
I can highly recommend it. It is quite detailed, very attractive,
and, of course, useful for anyone interested in Hungarian history before 1918.
|+ - ||Re: Requiem for Demszky... (mind)
At 05:04 PM 5/31/96 +0200, Gyorgy Kadar wrote:
> (I support this idea, that is we could celebrate the 1100 years
>anniversary of the birth of the Hungarian State with the festive selection
>of solemn music on June 29
> and Mr. Demszky and friends could celebrate the coming end of his
>miserable reign with a mourning mess (without mass) on 30 June).
As far as I know Mayor Demszky is a very popular man--I read his
name month after month in opinion polls and he is always among the top three
or four favorites: right after President Go:ncz.
As far as the musical program is concerned. Most likely any kind of
requiem is not appropriate for the occasion and surely it would have been
better to pick a program from Liszt, Dohnanyi, Bartok, or Kodaly. Having
said that, do you really think that (1) Mr. Demszky is personally
responsible for the program, and (2) the choice of Mozart's Requiem is a
I am looking forward to hearing your opinion on this matter.
|+ - ||Eva Balogh (mind)
Eva Balogh must have taken a leave of her professional detachment when she
wrote the following:
> Please, hurry up and find a more congenial group which would be more
>interested in your ideas on manure and related subjects.
> Eva Balogh
I find this statement an eloquent example of the of impertinence Eva
on FORUM before she ran out of insults and did the group the favor of
to post to it.
|+ - ||Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind)
** NIHIL OBSTAT **
At 09:37 PM 5/31/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:
> Well, this is what everybody calls it and I am not even sure that it
>is a misnomer. It was a revolution in the sense of "a sudden, radical, or
It was not! It was a revolution only in the sense that revolution is a
synonym for rebellion. If the rebellion had succeeded it might have led to
a revolution. The French, American and Russion Revolutions are remembered
as such because there was a "sudden, radical, or complete change". They
also succeeded. And with success comes permanence. Without permanence there
is no revolution. That's probably why the Prague Spring of 1968 is not
called a revolution. The events in East Berlin in 1953 or Warsaw in 1956
were not revolutions. Neither was the uprising in Chiapas in 1994. And on
and on. The Hungarian Revolution of 1956 will be remembered as such not
because it was a revolution, but, because it is *called* a revolution.
|+ - ||Re: Eva Balogh (mind)
At 08:45 PM 6/1/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak wrote:
>I find this statement an eloquent example of the of impertinence Eva
>displayed on FORUM before she ran out of insults and did the group the
favor >of stopping to post to it.
Have you ever described a man as "impertinent"? Would you be happier, more
in control, as it were, if Eva was more "lady like"?