Peter bacsi,

Don't think I defend Ustashi, the 2 sides took things, too, far, as they are
doing so today, but I was trying to tell people that they can't just ignore
what happened or the history of these people. It's the only way that people can
get into the mind set of the conflicting parties. You can't just draw up
treaties out of the air as the Treaty of Trianon was. Any clearifications on
past Croat-Serb confrontations are well accepted. Don't worry I wont pull a
Szucs Andras on you. ;-)

Udv.
jancsi

john_czifra @ shi.com

I agree with most of what has been said before about the Debrecen Summer
School (and I have already explained what I thought about it to Mr.
Kershaw), but as far as immersion is concerned, I think it is difficult to
expect absolute beginners in Hungarian to immerse themselves in Hungarian
language.  It IS a good start at learning a fairly difficult language,
plus provides some other entertainment as well.  Maybe it's just me, but I
rather enjoyed the school's attempts at making us feel "comfortable."
--Shannon Morris

Just wanted to put in a word about the assimilation of Gypsies into
Hungarian society, or at least acceptance.  Having had much contact with
Hungarian teenagers as a teacher in a Hungarian high school, I would have
to say that there definitely is a frightening neo-Nazi skinhead element
among young people today.  It is not pervasive, but I still had students
who claimed to espouse "skinhead" views and hatred of Gypsies, Jews, and
other minorities.  While I don't feel that any of my students would have
purposely become violent against any Gypsies, their willingness to express
their intolerance frightened me.  While living in Hungary, I heard of
several incidents of violence perpetrated against Gypsies.  Though
Americans really should not be the ones giving lessons on racial hatred, I
would have to say the difference between racism in the US and Hungary is
that in Hungary, it is socially acceptable to hold and express racist
views.

I am responding here to Janos Cziffra's posting of December 20. First of all,
I would like to explain to him what "bridge under the water" means. It means
that whatever happened, happened, and today we can't change it. I maintain
that this is the case concerning Hungary's borders of today. Janos blithely
says:

>Some people, such as, Krisztyan Sanyi, would like to have borders redrawn,
>which would be a monumental undertaking.

The understatement of the century! Monumental undertaking? It is an
impossible undertaking unless, of course, you would like to have a friendly
little war between Slovakia and Romania on one side and Hungary on the other.
A "little border change" in the former Yugoslavia might give you an idea how
"monumental undertaking" it would be!

Then, let's procede to some of Janos's historical observations:

>At the end of the first World War, however, Croatia and other territories,
>were transferred by the Paris "peacemakers" to the established Kingdom of
>the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes.

Admittedly, the Allies promised Croatia to Serbia shortly after the beginning
of the war, however, by May 1, 1915 the Croat leaders, joining the Serbs and
the Slovenes, established the so-called Yugoslav Committee whose aim was the
unification of the Southern Slavs in one country. The same leaders also
participated at the Meeting of the Congress of Oppressed Austrian
Nationalities.

Then:

>In deference to President Wilson, Hungary didn't ask for the return of
>Croatia. (Mistake)

That's is also incorrect. The Hungarian government didn't ask for the return
of Croatia because they never considered Crotia to be the integral part of
Hungary and as such they recognized its right to cecede.

>The Croats never wanted to be part of Yugoslavia. There were folks who
wanted
>Croatia to be an independent state solely by peaceful means, such as Stephen
>Raditch, of the Croat Republican Peasant Party, but he wound up boycotting
>the
>Belgrade Parliment. For this he was murdered on June 28, 1928.

As mentioned earlier this was not the case. But you are right about the
developments of the 1920s. The Croats had a change of heart concerning
Croatia's position in the new Yugoslav state. By the way, the politician's
name was Radic! Anyone interested in Radic's attitude toward Hungary in 1928
can find plenty of documentary evidence in the published documents of the
Hungarian Foreign Ministry. Radic approached the Hungarians but met with
great caution and a noncommittal attitude.

Eva Balogh

Re: Hungarian language schools in Hungary, my cousin was disappointed by the
Debrecen school, and I had a similarly disappointing experience at the
Nemzetkoezi Eloekeesziitoo Inteezet in Budapest.  The Institute wanted to be
so int'l that it lost its Hungarian character.  The attitude was; "It's o.k.
if you can't speak Hungarian, because we speak English!"

Foreign language total immersion is good on any level.  I don't think many
people can learn Hungarian more quickly if the "Hungarian class" is in
*English.*  I can't think of many English schools which let students know
that they can speak in French, Spanish, Hungarian.... if they want to.

I had a difficult finding a  language school in Hungary that expected the
students to speak and think in Hungarian.  I'm sure students of English do
not want a teacher constantly trying to speak with them in Hungarian, and
Hungarian lang. students should be expected to work in Hungarian.  Learning
foreign languages is not easy, and I have not seen many good results from
people who were spoon-fed the languages in English.  I found that encourage-
ment from the Hungarians to speak English really destroyed the environment,
and just encouraged the foreign mix of students to speak English even after
class.

If anyone has info re: learning Hungarian in a school which is professional
and gives Hungarian lessons in Hungarian, please inform us.  Come on, if even
a language school does not have enough confidence to speak to its students in
its language, that sure can cut down on motivation for learning it.

-Mark

Haliho,

Evikem, you only made one historical correction and an opinion on my comment.
;-P

 Here's the opinion:

>The understatement of the century! Monumental undertaking? It is an
>impossible undertaking unless, of course, you would like to have a friendly
>little war between Slovakia and Romania on one side and Hungary on the other.
>A "little border change" in the former Yugoslavia might give you an idea how
>"monumental undertaking" it would be!

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Here's the historical correction:

>Admittedly, the Allies promised Croatia to Serbia shortly after the beginning
>of the war, however, by May 1, 1915 the Croat leaders, joining the Serbs and
>the Slovenes, established the so-called Yugoslav Committee whose aim was the
>unification of the Southern Slavs in one country. The same leaders also
>participated at the Meeting of the Congress of Oppressed Austrian
>Nationalities.


Eva Balogh

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Sok puszit kuldok,
Czifra (egy "f"-el csak kicsim) Jancsi

john_czifra @ shi.com

:-P  :-P :-P

Frank Benyak says:

>1956 is over stop living in the past.

The past is passe' and the best thing is to forget about it! What an
appealing idea! But then, for some strange reason, we all should remember
what film was shown at the Corvin movie theater on October 23, 1956. Strange!

Eva Balogh

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Sam Stowe wrote:

>Boy, Joe, that Buchanan shot of mine really pissed you off, didn't it? I
>wonder how you'd react if I linked you intellectually to Newtie-poo? Come
>to think of it, you guys do share a certain flair for going off
>half-cocked in public forums.
>
>Sam "Back to you, Joe" Stowe

Well folks, it seems that Sam pumped himself into such a frenzy yesterday
that he's probably in a state of post-coital exhaustion today.  So much for
the staying power of American men!   Hungarians beware!!

Joe Szalai

BRAVO,   BRAVO




According to Frank Benyak:
>
> 1956 is over stop living in the past. Most of you just talk bullshit
> about 1956 because most of you was't even born to remember what happend.
> Since you think i'm wrong answer this 2 queston. How many tanks was
> destroyd in prater utca?And please stop to bullshit people . Bet money an
> it you dont know what a hell you talking . So stop the bullshit and let
> the Hungarian pepole alone .They dont need your help.If you want to help
> get your ass to Budapest and do your talk over there.Queston #2 What was
> the name of the movie play'd in the Corvin mozi October 21st. Since you
> all  where there let me see . I'm proud to be Hungarian and you people
> sould get a hell off the net whit you bullshit. Talk somethink good about
> your country and the people.Most of you where born there I'll hope .
>

The internet, including this newsgroup, operates world wide.  It would
appear that every day of the year is a special day for someone.  What would
happen if everyone sent greetings and wishes and graphics to celebrate their
special days?  We wouldn't get very far, would we?  Below is a list of the
special days for December.

December
1 Festival of Poseidon- Greek
2 Festival of Shiva- Hindu
3 Bona Dea- Roman
3 St. Barbara's Day- Basque
4 Pallas Athena- Greek
5 Chanukkah begins at sundown- Jewish
6 St. Nicholas' Day
7 Burning the Devil- Guatemalan
7 Itul- Congan
8 Immaculate conception of Virgin Mary- Catholic
10 Day of Goddesses of Liberty- French
11 Day of Bruma- Roman
12 Sada- Zoroastrian
12 St. Francis' Day
13 Chanukkah ends- Jewish
13 St. Lucy's Day- Swedish
14 Festival of Nostradamus- French
15 Festival of Alcyon- Greek
18 Saturnalia begins-Roman
20 Mother Night- Odinist
20 Festival of the Kitchen God- Chinese
21 Yule (Winter Solstice)- most Wiccan/Pagan traditions
22 Pryderi's Birthday- Celtic
23 Acca Larentis- Roman
23 Secret of the Unhewn Stone- Celtic
24 Christmas Eve
24 Saturnalia ends- Roman
25 Christmas Day
25 Festival of Atargatis- Persian
26 Kwanzaa begins- African-American
27 Feast of St. John the Evangelist
28 Bairn's Day- Scottish
29 Ra's Birthday- Egyptian
30 Isis' Birthday- Egyptian
31 New Year's Eve
31 Hogmanay- Scottish

Please don't misunderstand me.  If someone wants to know something about the
way Hungarians celebrate St. Nicks day or Christmas day and someone is
willing to share that information, fine.  I have no problem with that.  I do
however get a bit irritated by all the willy nilly greetings that go on at
this time of year.  Please respect our differences.

Joe Szalai

Is anyone familiar with or living in Halas, Hungary (formerly Kiskunhalas)?

Is there anyone who has heard of Count Lelbach?  Janos Lelbach owned a horse
ranch (Puszta Zobnatisza, now Northern Yugoslavia - South of Subotica) which
was founded in 1779.

-Beth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Elizabeth T. Huffman >
   Indianapolis, IN
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, John Kershaw wrote:

> I have received information on a 2-4 week program at the University of
> Devrecen which provides foreigners with a basic grasp of the Hungarian
> language as well as some information on Hungarian culture and history.
>
> Does anyone have experience with this course?  Is it for serious
> students or could it be the basis for an Hungarian emersion program?
>
> Are you aware of any other programs [for senior citizens] which
> include a basic orientation into Hungary, its language and culture?
>


I have a couple of friends who have taken this course.  The problem with
the course, as I see it, is that they try to make the foreigners "feel at
home".  Nothing wrong with that per se, but everybody is put together,
have a fine time together speak (English) together, live together in the
student hostel.  This is hardly an immersion course.

>From what I hear, the course materials they use are quite good.  Perhaps
if you have discipline, refuse to live in the dorm, and somehow arrange
to live with a Hungarian family, it may be useful.

jim.

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

James D. Doepp
University of Miskolc (Hungary)
Department of Economic Theory


"...if pleasure and liking, pain and dislike, are formed in the
soul on right lines before the age of understanding is reached,
and when that age is attained, these feelings are in concord with
understanding, thanks to early discipline in appropriate habits -
this concord, regarded as a whole, is virtue.  But if you consider
one factor in it, the rightly disciplined state of pleasures and
pains whereby man, from his first beginnings on, will abhor what
he should abhor and relish what he should relish - if you isolate
this factor and call it education, you will be giving it its true name."

Plato, Laws II

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /