Could anyone help me with the dates (birth and death) of three historical
figures:

Miklos Horthy Jr.
Gyorgy Ghika (Hungarian diplomat)
Royall Tyler (American, advisor to the National Bank of Hungary between the
wars)

Thanks in advance,

Peter

Eva Durant .... At 09:52 PM 16/06/97 GMT, you wrote:
>I am critical of my old-new and my new-old country,
[...]
Being critical is most often interpreted to being equivalent to whining,
lest you have an effective plan of action at hand with which to enact your
changes.  I always believed that recognition of a shortcoming in just about
anything is the first and foremost important step towards enacting a change
for the perceived better.  Plan of action being the second in importance.
What's yours?

>In my opinion my attitude is a
>healthy one; if you care about the place and the people, you want it
>to change for the better, and you reach for ideas that would work
>better, than the ones that are failing before your eyes.
[...]
Reaching for ideas is one thing .... making them happen becomes *the task*.
 The task you see, in my opinion would require that you do so, with an well
thought out plan of action.  I ask again ... what's yours?

Best, Aniko

Hi Janka,

   Once in a blue moon I receive a response to some message I have never
received. I haven't been concerned about it because it happens so seldom
and I usually learn enough of the message from the response.
   But I still receive a reject notice  from CompuServe Postmaster every
time I send something to Hungary. This problem seems to be a mystery.
   BTW - does anyone know what happened to the 'supposed' new address of
Hungary (Hungary supposed to have  switched over on the week of June 2)?
I have just tried it,  no dice.  I am hoping  that the new  address will
eliminate these annoying problems.
                                      Amos
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Johanne L. Tournier wrote:
>
> Hi, One and All!
>
> I am concerned, because I never received the letter from Amos to which Joe
> was responding. This is not the first time, and it seems to happen at
> random. That is, there are many other letters from Amos which I have
> received, and I see no particular reason why I should have missed this one.
>
> Is anyone else having the same problem?
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions for a solution?

At 09:09 PM 6/16/97 GMT, Eva Durant wrote:
>No, just realists. That is what I am. I would feel much happier, if
>I'd had  valid reasons to believe, that living standards in Hungary
>would rise - even as globally the trend is not that.

        Bet that it will rise in the next few years.

>Believe me Eva, I would be a happier person, if as you, I could put
>blind faith in capitalism.

        It's not blind faith. It rests on proven record. Compare the living
standards of ordinary human beings one hundred years ago and now.

>It is not a rewarding role to rock the
>boat of naive comfortable people, oblivious of the pitfalls.

        In don't think that I am naive, or oblivious. I am not even all that
comfortable. Like everybody else I have to worry about tomorrow. ESB

        ESB

>>>>
>>>>  No comedy here. It's about a seven year old girl with cancer. Read it
>>>>  and pass it on to as many people that you can.
>>>>
>>>>  Occasionally we get to use this medium for some actual good, rather
>>>>  than trading barbs across the waves.  And once in a while things like
>>>>  this bring us  back to reality, allowing us to count ourselves lucky
>>>>  in life.  Let's put our network to work here!
>>>>
>>>>  It will only take you a second to send this message.
>>>>
>>>>  ***************************************************************
>>>>  JESSICA MYDEK IS SEVEN YEARS OLD AND IS SUFFERING FROM AN ACUTE AND
>>>>  VERY RARE CASE OF CEREBRAL CARCINOMA.  THIS CONDITION CAUSES SEVERE
>>>>  MALIGNANT BRAIN TUMORS AND IS A TERMINAL ILLNESS.  THE DOCTORS HAVE
>>>>  GIVEN HER SIX MONTHS TO LIVE.  AS PART OF HER DYING WISH, SHE WANTED
>>>>  TO START A CHAIN LETTER TO INFORM PEOPLE OF THIS CONDITION AND TO SEND
>>>>  PEOPLE THE MESSAGE TO LIVE LIFE TO THE FULLEST AND ENJOY EVERY MOMENT,
>>>>  A CHANCE THAT SHE WILL NEVER HAVE.
>>>>
>>>>          FURTHERMORE, THE AMERICAN CANCER SOCIETY AND SEVERAL CORPORATE
>>>>          SPONSORS HAVE AGREED TO DONATE THREE CENTS TOWARD CONTINUING
>>>>          CANCER RESEARCH FOR EVERY NEW PERSON THAT GETS FORWARDED THIS
>>>>          MESSAGE. PLEASE GIVE JESSICA AND ALL CANCER VICTIMS A CHANCE.
>>>>          ADD  TO THE LIST OF PEOPLE THAT YOU SEND THIS TO SO
>>>>          THAT THE AMERICAN CANCER SOCIETY WILL BE ABLE TO CALCULATE HOW
>>>>          MANY PEOPLE HAVE GOTTEN THIS.   IF THERE ARE ANY QUESTIONS,
>>>>          SEND THEM TO THE AMERICAN CANCER SOCIETY AT 
>>>>
>>>>  Three cents for every person that receives this letter turns out to be
>>>>  a lot of money considering how many people will get this letter and
>>>>  how many people they, in turn, pass it on to.  Please go ahead and
>>>>  forward it to whoever you know- it really doesn't take much to help
>>>>  out.
>>>>

J.Tournier wrote:

>Hi, One and All!
>
>I am concerned, because I never received the letter from Amos to which Joe
>was responding. This is not the first time, and it seems to happen at
>random. That is, there are many other letters from Amos which I have
>received, and I see no particular reason why I should have missed this one.
>
>Is anyone else having the same problem?
>
>Does anyone have any suggestions for a solution?
>
>Viszontlatasra,
>
>Johanne/Janka

I had the same problem and I was complaining about it on the list.
But there is hope Janka, since then I got everything twice. I guess
this is related with the fact that I was (maybe is) subscribed on the list
with several addresses. I thought I have already signed off from
all but one address.

J.Zs

E.Durant wrote:

>I am critical of my old-new and my new-old country, and others I
>happened to get to know on the way. In my opinion my attitude is a
>healthy one; if you care about the place and the people, you want it
>to change for the better, and you reach for ideas that would work
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>better,
 ^^^^^^^

Eva, here is where your approach fails. Your ideas about the 'new
world' are mere beliefs. You have no proofs only fairy tales. Actually
nobody has a clear idea how your 'new world' can be realized.
It is a bad sign if you have nothing else than "ka'roga's", whining
about the unequality, unfairness of the present world.

J.Zs

On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Peter I. Hidas wrote:

> Could anyone help me with the dates (birth and death) of three historical
> figures:
>
> Miklos Horthy Jr.
> Gyorgy Ghika (Hungarian diplomat)
> Royall Tyler (American, advisor to the National Bank of Hungary between the
> wars)
>

Miklos Horthy Jr. (1907-1982)

Sorry, I don't know about the others.

Barna Bozoki

Hi, One and All!

I am concerned, because I never received the letter from Amos to which Joe
was responding. This is not the first time, and it seems to happen at
random. That is, there are many other letters from Amos which I have
received, and I see no particular reason why I should have missed this one.

Is anyone else having the same problem?

Does anyone have any suggestions for a solution?

Viszontlatasra,

Johanne/Janka

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

At 09:05 AM 6/15/97 -0400, Joe wrote:
>At 05:48 PM 6/14/97 -0400, "Amos J. Danube" wrote:
>
><snip>
>>   Good old, Joe.  Alway trying to avoid responsibility. You have posted
>>the article only because  it listed all those who seem  to oppose the US
>>on limitig NATO's expension.
>
<snip snip>

>>   But you know all that.You just love to be contrary and want to appear
>>to be a concerned citizen. Well, you can fool some of the people ...
>>                                                                    Amos
>
>C'mon, Amos.  Just say it.  You think I'm a prick, don't you?
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>"You can fool all the people all the time if the advertising is right and
>the budget is big enough."
>            --- Joseph E. Levine
>
>

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  In spite of several requests of the Csangos (the Hungarian minority
in Moldova, Romania) the Roman Catholic Curch is still not offering
them the Holy Masses in their native tongue (the responsible bishop is
Petru Gherghel).
  Since neither the e-mail address nor the fax # of the Pope is
available we should send our protest to Radio Vatican, l'Osservatore
Romano (a Vatican weekly) and the Vatican Information Service. It is
important to act NOW, as the Pope will probably visit Romania around
June 15.

What to do:
  Please write a letter to the editors of Radio Vatican,
l'Osservatore Romano and the Vatican Information service and protest
against the current situation. Feel free to use the attached form
letters. Please do even inform the local media about the problems of
the Csangos.
  PLEASE DO NOT HESITATE TO SEND A LETTER EVERY DAY!!

E-mail of Radio Vatican:


E-mail of l'Osservatore Romano:


Fax # of Vatican Information Service:
+39-6-69883053

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter to Radio Vatican:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


The Vatican Radio
00120 Cittŕ del Vaticano
(e-mail: )

RE: Please help the most neglected Catholics of the World: the Csangos


Dear Editor:

I would like to turn your attention to the cultural survival of the
Csangos, the only Catholics east of the Carpathians, living in the
Northeastern part of Romania.

The Csangos are of Hungarian descent. They settled their villages in
today's Moldova, in the 13th century, when they were invited there by
the local ruler, the Kuman king Barsz.

These simple farmers are the most devout Catholics. They have kept
their faith, their ancient language (based on an archaic form of
Hungarian), and maintained their folk customs,  dresses and music.

For many years, the Csango congregations of Cleja, Pustina and Lazped
have been asking, that the Holy Mass be offered in their archaic
native language. Up to now their bishop, Petru Gherghel has refused
this request. This denial is contrary to the teachings of the Roman
Catholic Church besides being a denial of their most basic human
rights. Furthermore it promotes the deculturization of  a unique
people.

You could do a great service by calling on the Church and on the
Catholic community to assist the cultural survival of the Csangos by
permitting the use of their native thongue.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, address, title.>


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter to l'Osservatore Romano:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


l'Osservatore Romano
00120 Cittŕ del Vaticano
(e-mail )

RE: Please help the most neglected Catholics of the World: the Csangos


Dear Editor:

I would like to turn your attention to the cultural survival of the
Csangos, the only Catholics east of the Carpathians, living in the
Northeastern part of Romania.

The Csangos are of Hungarian descent. They settled their villages in
today's Moldova, in the 13th century, when they were invited there by
the local ruler, the Kuman king Barsz.

These simple farmers are the most devout Catholics. They have kept
their faith, their ancient language (based on an archaic form of
Hungarian), and maintained their folk customs,  dresses and music.

For many years, the Csango congregations of Cleja, Pustina and Lazped
have been asking, that the Holy Mass be offered in their archaic
native language. Up to now their bishop, Petru Gherghel has refused
this request. This denial is contrary to the teachings of the Roman
Catholic Church besides being a denial of their most basic human
rights. Furthermore it promotes the deculturization of  a unique
people.

You could do a great service by calling on the Church and on the
Catholic community to assist the cultural survival of the Csangos by
permitting the use of their native thongue.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, address, title.>


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter to Vatican Information Service:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Vatican Information Service
00120 Vatican City
Fax : +39-6-69883053

RE: Please help the most neglected Catholics of the World: the Csangos


Dear Editor:

I would like to turn your attention to the cultural survival of the
Csangos, the only Catholics east of the Carpathians, living in the
Northeastern part of Romania.

The Csangos are of Hungarian descent. They settled their villages in
today's Moldova, in the 13th century, when they were invited there by
the local ruler, the Kuman king Barsz.

These simple farmers are the most devout Catholics. They have kept
their faith, their ancient language (based on an archaic form of
Hungarian), and maintained their folk customs,  dresses and music.

For many years, the Csango congregations of Cleja, Pustina and Lazped
have been asking, that the Holy Mass be offered in their archaic
native language. Up to now their bishop, Petru Gherghel has refused
this request. This denial is contrary to the teachings of the Roman
Catholic Church besides being a denial of their most basic human
rights. Furthermore it promotes the deculturization of  a unique
people.

You could do a great service by calling on the Church and on the
Catholic community to assist the cultural survival of the Csangos by
permitting the use of their native thongue.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, address, title.>

>
> >Or, have you forgotten that wealth is not shared
> >equally under capitalism.
>
>         My God, you *are* tiresome. ESB
>
>

 ...or reality bites, so that you respond offensively
to an understatement.

Amos-cut-
>    Is Canada going  to pay  what some say  will be a  very expensive ex-
> expansion? Heck no! If it turns out to be really expensive, we will have
> to pay for it and Canada is going to look the other way.
>

Actually, the new members, such as Hungary are paying for it. They
will be coerced to buy all sorts of expensive hardware sold by - guess
who. So the main flow of money will be as usual - from the poor to
the rich.

No, just realists. That is what I am. I would feel much happier, if
I'd had  valid reasons to believe, that living standards in Hungary
would rise - even as globally the trend is not that.
Believe me Eva, I would be a happier person, if as you, I could put
blind faith in capitalism.
It is not a rewarding role to rock the
boat of naive comfortable people, oblivious of the pitfalls.
However, I'd feel guilty if I said nothing.



>         They have always been pessimists even under the best of
> circumstances. Were they really satisfied economically or politically under
> the Kadar regime? Of course not. They complained as much then as they do now.
>         The economic upturn will not translate immediately into dollars in
> the pockets. It is a slow process. So, don't be too happy, too soon. (I am
> sure that for some perverse reasons you would love the market economy fail
> in Hungary instead of producing a well-off citizenry.) ESB
>
>
>

I am critical of my old-new and my new-old country, and others I
happened to get to know on the way. In my opinion my attitude is a
healthy one; if you care about the place and the people, you want it
to change for the better, and you reach for ideas that would work
better, than the ones that are failing before your eyes.
Just because someone doesn't agree with the status quo, doesn't mean
that she is  immature.  The status quo turned out to be wrong very
often in history.



> I wander how many of us were so clean of communist indoctrination upon
> leaving Hungary. Of course it depends how many years one lived under Rakosi
> and/or Kadar, age, education, location, family background etc. Most
> immigrants are originally quite critical of their receiving country. Give
> the young lady of Ontario a few years, time to learn and to mature.
>
> Peter I. Hidas
> Montreal
>