> Felado : Pannon Jozsef
> Well, I think we knew about these things here more than you give us
> credit for because many of us visited back there regularly from the '70s
> on.  Unfortunately, we were also reminded with regular frequency how
> shallow those new freedoms really were by such things as Hungary's
> slavish following of the Soviet line in boycotting the
> Los Angeles Olympic Games.  It was pretty embarrassing to see only
> the Romanian team there from the East Bloc.  And this was already in
> the '80s!

For once I agree with Joe: the freedoms in question were, by western
standards, shallow. Yet who would have exchanged the meaningless
foreign policy gestures Romania "bravely" made at the time for the
everyday terror that ruled in Romania.  Yes, it was humiliating to see
Hungary take part in the invasion of Czechoslovakia, embarrassing to
see that there were no diplomatic relations with Israel, and faintly
ridiculous to see Mengistu and other communist cannibals received with
state honors. But Reza Shah Pahlavi received the same honors (and an
honorary doctorate in law from my very own university) and in general
people could care less. What they _did_ care about was their precious
living standards (also very shallow in comparison to the genuine
Western article) and those shallow freedoms...

Andra1s Kornai

It is remarkable how a 525 line posting can evade a simple question as
to any proof of the existence of .
Such amizingly long and amazingly evasive posts are vintage Pellionisz.

Andra1s Kornai

Sziasztok!

Patrik vagyok, 28 eves mernvk Svedorszagbol.

Jvvvre magyarorszagra en meg felesegem (szerencsere v is magyar) fogunk menni
nyaralni.
Tudjatok az mit jelent...
Rokonokkal talalkozni, politizalni ki tudja mi meg. De ugyanakkor szeretnenk
bor pinceket meglatogatni. Ott bort kostolni, borrol beszelgetni, meg
vasarolni.
Mi szeretnenk  nehany jo borpincebe eljutni. Tudnatok-e ajanlani nehanyat?
A tartozkodasi helyunk Dunantul lesz.

Kvszvnvttel,

Belina Patrik

Dear Sam
    Well, I asked an american boy I play soccer with, about the "redneck".
  The reason was that because in the Music Television  many video clips
  have appeared recently about "redneck". (E.g.:
  If you have been freshman in a university since 5 yers, you may be
  a redneck. If the police comes to your house 5th time during a party
  to turn your CD down, because the old lady in the next door can
  not sleep, you may be a redneck., Etc.)
     That boy said, the "redneck" is a southern (US) term about the
  "standard average" citizen, who has many sily things around him
  he is not proud about but definitely can not avoid :
  He takes his girlfriend to a dance party with pick up track,
  (and not on a 6 doors Cadillack),
  his towel should be washed in his bathroom since long
  (and the whole staff over there does not look like a Royal
  bathroom), etc.  It is definitely
  hard to explain, but in fact all of us are "redneck" somehow.
  Well, that corresponds STRONGLY to the Hungarian Nancsi neni.
  All other terms you mentioned - not really. But I must leave
  the question open, you may know other definition of it.
  But an American person has explained this to me.
    Just to make sure, I asked an other American boy (now here
  when I am writing these lines) about the "redneck". That is
  literally the person whoos neck is red because he drives track
  on the farm and the sun makes the job on his neck. But behind
  the word there is a low educated person who drinks beer, smokes,
  says bad words, spit, when he is happy he shots to the air
  2-3 times if no policeman around,
  but in spite of this, belongs to the wast
  majority of average people in a very critical sense.
    The Hungarian Nancsi neni is the person who get the knews
  from the neigborhood not from National Geographic nor from
  Wall Street Journal, has the information but sometimes
  with fatal error, not a university professor, more, she is just
  above the elementary school level, and so on, and so on.
  What is absolutely correct in the "redneck" definition is
  the southern (US) origin.
                                         Dr.Dr.K.S.

After a long soul searching I have decided to write a completley honest
letter to all the readers and correspondents of Hungary.
Most probabley most of you will ask why?Do I want my nose to be bloodied as
Joe has mentioned.Maybe yes.But this is realey not the main reason.The main
reason is that I find it disgusting not productive those petty accusation
from one person to another.
I find it repulsive and as I see it counter productive.You can tell me to
cancel my subscribtion.That would be the easey way.Why should I select it
now,since as I mentioned before I lived for 69 years and I will for some
more.How many,that is god's will.
Ladies and Gentleman please for the sake of Hungary,try to do some constructive
things.I realey do not know what.Since we emigrant can onley have ideas.I do
not think that the Pelonious dictrum would bring better life to Hungary.I
think that any person who has ideas with citizen riots and other ways (maybe
even with weapons) has the soluction.I am not a partie member but when I
hear that most of the jewish inteligence is in the partie where the
primeminister is coming from,and when I hear about Dr Torgyan and Mr Csurka
and there right wing thinking,I feel this is not the solution either.
As an outsider,and let me tell you also as a Jew,I wish nothing else for
Hungary,but a solution for there strugling life.Unfortunatley nothing is
eaey in this life,but with cursing,and with the writing in NEMZET AND THE
HURTING of people who might have different ideas the problem will not be solved
.
We the people who live ooutsid e of Hungary should stick together and
someway find a mutual solution.I can not so I have to live it up to the
knowlegable ones.
Best of luck to find a way to stick together and for finding the Better way.
ANdy Kozma

Dear Colleagues,

We have received reports that Romania's Audio-Visual Council has banned the
cable transmission of the Duna TV program. We have also received denials of
same from Romanian authorities. Clarifications of the facts of this matter
would be greatly appreciated.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

His Master's Voice "" says:

> Dr. Endrey turned out to be an existing elderly statesman-like lawyer,
> who lives in his retirement in Hodmezovasarhely (a good distance from
> Silicon Valley...). He breeds, on his pleasure farm, a dozen or so
> "Grey Hungarian" cattle...

No mere lawyer he.  It's Dr. Jur., LL.B. (Hons.), QC for you, bub.
Calling him just a run-of-the-mill lawyer comes perilously close to
defamation.  It's like saying he made his name fixing traffic tickets
in Melbourne, or something.  You may get into trouble with your site
administrator for saying things like that.  He certainly won't sit
still while Dr Endrey is being defamed by a user at his very own site.
He might even terminate your account if you don't watch out.

But the real question is: are those dozen or so "Grey Hungarians" all
different, or just 12 copies of a single bull?  And if they are all
different, do these assorted cows and bulls also have accounts on
siliconvalley.com?  And if not, why not?  Keep those users coming.
The more the merrier.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

No, not to me. It would not matter if I did not exist "as an actual
person". (BTW: who does Kornai think write this letter if not "an actual
person", an actually "living person"?)

It is not I who needs an apology.

Kornai must apologize to the Hungarian Freedom Fighters for his defamation
of their heroic struggle and too often of their paramount sacrifice.
Hungarians risked, and lost, their lives in fight for freedom of Hungary
from foreign military occupation. This is a fact. Its denial is as clearly
a
defamation of Hungarians as it is defamation of Jews, and in civilized
places a criminal offense to them, to publicly deny that Holocaust ever
happened. We can not uphold Holocaust-denial as a criminal offense in
civilized countries if those defaming gentile nations are not held to the
same impeccable moral standards. Kornai hurts Jewish interests therefore
as much as he hurts the interests of Hungarians when he publicly denies
existence of "Magyar Szabadsagharc of 1956". A few days ago we were
reminded what enormous damage an extremist wing of Zionism can inflict
on Jews themselves. Thus, in case of lack of respect to Hungarians,
Kornai should refrain from such defamation out of respect to Jews.

This issue is not a matter of opinion. Those harboring a private opinion
that Holocaust/Hungarian Freedom Fight never happened can not be punished,
as anyone is entitled to harbor any opinion he/she wishes. It has been
established, however, as a fact of history (and in Hungary's case, only
after an agonizing 33 years of official denial!) that Holocaust/Hungarian
Freedom Fight did happen and proud small Nations insists on it fiercely
that no one can defame her by its public denial and be left unpunished.

"Cheap excuses", in the form of wrangling over semantics of Holocaust/
Hungarian Freedom Fight, or over the exact number how many died, ring
hollow and an in addition to the injury of defamation itself they are an
insult to decency. It is simply pitiful but revealing for Kornai that he
tries to
get off the hook by mistranslating "Szabadsagharc" to "War of
independence". That would be "Fuggetlensegi Haboru" in Hungarian, while the
target of
Kornai's denial was "Szabadsagharc". Literally "Freedomfight".

("Szabadsag" and "Fuggetlenseg" are two quite distinct words, and they have
exact equivalents in English; "Freedom" and "Independence", respectively.
Just as "Harc" and "Haboru" are distinct and their exact equivalents are
"Fight" and "War", respectively).

Since Kornai may have looked up his original defamation in old "Forum"
issues, where Dr.Pellionisz used the above obvious argument as well, it is
conceivable that Kornai expects me to deny here Holocaust in some revenge.
Thus, he is quick to try to trick my phone number, driver's licence
number, etc. One wonders, why. Do you also want my "Szemelyi Szam", and/or
Social Security Number or, in appropriate Hungarian, "Ha't a f**zom nem
ke'ne?" Do some volunteer police work (onkentes rendor) will you, dear kapo,
if that is your true spirit! But get smart. First, ever occurred to you
that unlisted numbers you will not find in the book? Second, learn that
one can telnet into an account, thus I can very well be in Budapest (or in
Timbuktu, for that matter). Third, that although I did not give you my
social security number, nor my credit card numbers (nor would *you* give
the time of the day to one who denies Holocaust), keep in your mind that
the inverse of Brody's song is not necessarily true: "Szemelyi igazolvany,
VAN, tehat en LETEZEM" ("Szemelyi igazolvany", NINCS, tehat en NEM
LETEZEM). (Sorry English speaking readers, these are words from a cutting
pop song in late Kadarism. Tongue-in-cheek suggested much needed
attitude-adjustment for communists, for whom anyone other than an
"ID card holder" was simply "non-person". Perhaps Kornai remained too long
in a police state.)

I did prove that I am an actual person, as I know no other entity capable
of insisting on dignity, rejection of all defamation. Now it is *your* turn
again, to show that you are also an "actual person", capable of dignity.
That is, you can bring yourself to mustering some respect to Hungarian
Freedom Fighters - thus offering them a humble apology. And do not worry,
I will get the message, too. Without anyone calling my unlisted number,
cursing during wee hours into my phone. No need for anyone to use my
drivers' licence or my credit cards, either. Those interested in my
human response can reach me at Szucs_Andras@ public.siliconvalley.com,
and even if an inhuman shows up at the other end, an actual person will be
responding.

The "other" Andras writes in his inimitable style:

>She [meaning Eva Balogh] doubts the existence of Joska ba', since it is
"proof"
>that someone cannot exist if has lived decades in emigration - yet knows
>today's slang for SZDSZ extremist-idiots ("blue heads"). Sorry, Mrs.Balogh,
>by *your* definition you cannot exist! You are a person who have lived close
>to forty years in emigration -- yet you just slipped to reveal that you
>know today's slangs that you are not supposed to know.

Well, there is a huge difference between Eva S. Balogh (Ph.D. Yale '74) and
Joska ba', the illiterate and uneducated God-knows-who. The former didn't
forget her mother tongue and she speaks grammatical Hungarian. Also she is
able to read in Hungarian and she does. Joska ba' surely doesn't because if
he did he would be a bit more proficient in the language. Therefore, she
should know what "kekfeju" means, but it is unlikely that our illiterate
worker/peasant, Joska ba' does. Judging from his messages, Joska ba''s level
is so low that I would be surprised if Joska ba' knew who the prime minister
of Hungary was, let alone the rest of the party leaders.

So, what I want to say that if Pellionisz spends his time on such childish
tricks, at least, for Pete's sake, come up with a more believable character.
Joska ba' won't do!

Eva Balogh

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Kedves Kornai Andras,

Thank you for your private note to my statement on the nature of the events
in 1956 in Hungary. I took no offense because our views differ. The only
annoying thing in your note are the accents, all those ones and twos etc. I
am by now more comfortable reading Hungarian text without accent marks
(time for reform?). In a more serious vein I would like to make a few
observations on the quoted material from the FORUM debate.

There is no common agreement amongst social scientists on what constitute a
"revolution" or a "war of independence". Politicians especially use these
words to suit their aims. How do you measure the will of the people? There
were no election, no referenda, not even polls in Hungary in 1956. And what
is a legitimate government? Did anyone recognize the Nagy government? In
the 19th century the Polish people waged several wars of independence
against Russia. Only a minority of Poles was doing the actual fighting. The
peasant remained neutral. In October 1956 only a few military units and a
few civilian groups fought the Russians. Weren't  their struggle approved
by the majority of the Hungarians? I believe it was. The Hungarian
Revolution and War of Independence did not stop on November 4th. It
continued by other various means, mainly through a general strike. The
government and the people made a wise decision by not sacrificing the lives
of thousands of Hungarians in a futile confrontation once the second
invasion took place. The War of Independence was fought on a military,
political and diplomatic level. The National Guard did little fighting but
participated in the restoration of order and demonstrated that the new
revolutionary government was a government with the propers institutions of
an independent state.

The role of the refugees in the October events, which as mentioned earlier
I characterize as Revolution and War of Independence (in describing 1848 I
also add the term civil war) ended once they left Hungary. Many of them
left for a better future, out of fear of renewed totalitarianism and many
other reasons. We should, nevertheless, remember that a few played an
important role in explaining the events to the world, like Bela Kiraly did
to the United Nations. The departure of a number of actual freedom fighters
does not diminish their earlier role during the revolution.  There were
heros amongst them, but there are few heros in this world and we Hungarians
are part of it.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal





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Peter I. Hidas, Montreal




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In article >, Andy Kozma
> wrote:

> I wish to send my condolances to the people of Israel at the assacination of
> Mr.Rabin.
> My sympathy and sorrow to all Israelis
> I hope you will follow in the footsteps of Mr.Rabin in your peace process.
>
> Andy Kozma


   Let me add my thoughts and sorrow too.

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