Petrovics-Ofner wrote:

>Stonewall is one suggestion --by all media, including Internet.  I,
>for one, will, from now on answer respondents to Pellionisz with
>personal messages only --warning of his danger.

And just why should your opinion count more than anybody elses?  Just
because you put them down in a paper?

It's amazing how seeing one's name above a newspaper article can
inflate one's sense of importance.

Joe

Y!

I know, ordinarily, we disregard these letters because they usually
don t work like they are supposed to, but this ONE is DIFFERENT!

Carl Simmonds used this legal program last year and made $82,360 in
cash the first time he used it. Needless to say, he quit his job
immediately paid off all debts in full, and started another mailing.

Believe me, this is an EASY opportunity. You can do this all on your
computer, by  JUST PRESSING A FEW BUTTONS . You will EASE YOUR
FINANCIAL PRESSURES, and begin to make GOOD things happen for you and
your family.    READ ON!

* * * * * * *   INSTRUCTIONS    * * * * * * *

1.      Send $2.00 (cash only) inside a sheet of carbon paper or
construction paper, and send a self-addressed, stamped envelope to
each of the DEALERS (1 thru 4) below for the recipes they offer.

2.      Save this letter on disk. Remove the name, address, and recipe
title that is in the number 1 position. Move the others up a space.
Put your name, address, and the name of your recipe in the number 4
position.

3.      Post this file just as it appears (with your name, etc.) in 10
different places online (newsgroups, forums, etc). Do the postings
between 6 a.m. and 7 a.m. Friday, Saturday or Sunday to get the
highest position and have your posting read first. 10 postings should
yield about 100 responses, which should then yield about $100,000.

4.      ** When the money begins coming to your HOME MAILBOX, put your
recipe in provided SELF-ADDRESED, STAMPED ENVELOPE - sit back, smile,
and know that you NOW OWN AN HONEST AND EASY SMALL HOME-OPERATED
BUSINESS! KNOW ALSO, THAT YOU HAVE DONE SOMETHING SMART TO ACHIEVE
FINANCIAL INDEPENDENCE!

* * * * * LOOK AT THESE FIGURES WITH ONLY A 15% RESPONSE! * * * * *

Step 1: 15 dealers mail at least 15 letters each with your name in
position #3 AND send you a request for a recipe and $2 each or          $30.

Step 2: 225 Dealers mail at least 15 letters each with your name in
position #2 AND send you a request for a recipe and $2 each or          $450.

Step 3:         3,375 Dealers mail at least 15 letters with your name in
position                #1 AND send you a request for a recipe and $2 each or
$6,750.

Step 4:         50,625 Dealers will send you a request for a recipe and $2
each            or $101,250.

TOTAL CASH RECEIVED (15% RESPONSE) $108,480.00
ELAPSED TIME:   30 days! Enveryone responding immediately.
ADVANTAGE: $8 Initial investment.

Professional care has been taken to insure that this Marketing Plan
does NOT violate any laws! (Reference U.S. Code, Title 18: Section
1302, 1343, and TITLE 39, Section 3005).

The key factor is that we are Mailing Merchandise ... OUR TREASURED
RECIPES.

Be honest in every way. Be sure to keep accurate records of income for
Income Tax purposes.

GOOD FORTUNE TO YOU!

                  * * * * * * * *  DEALERS LISTED    * * * * * * * *

1.      Elsie Wong
        7695 Lawrence Dr.
        Burnaby, BC
        V5A 3M6
        Canada

2.      Dimitris Dimitrakopoulos
        Bas. Alexandrou 23
        P.C. 151-21
        Marousi
        Greece

3.      Drennen Brown
        4191 S. Westcotta
        Green Valley, AZ 85614

4       Eddie Wong
        W835 Jester
        101 E 21 St
        Austin, TX 78705-5695

******************************************************************************
*******
S. Finch -- I made $141,000 the last time I used this program. It
REALLY WORKS!
******************************************************************************
*************
J. S. Holliman -- I am a skeptical person by nature. But I Knew this
program was different. Over a period of 1 1/2 months, I received a
total of $137,870 in the MAIL!
******************************************************************************
*************
C. Ogea -- It changed my life!
******************************************************************************
*************
P. S.   Why not try it yourself? Mathematically it is possible, but
ONLY IF EVERYONE PARTICIPATES! This system works for the BENEFIT OF
ALL, so remember to begin with your name in the #4 position, for
MAXIMUM SALES AND PROFITS! THIS IS EASY AND YOU GET LOTS OF MONEY!!

GOOD LUCK  !!!!!

>From news.u.washington.edu!saul6.u.washington.edu!szamos Wed Oct  4 21:14:11
1995
Path: news.u.washington.edu!saul6.u.washington.edu!szamos
From:  (Janos Szamosfalvi)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.hungary,soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.romanian
Subject: Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting
Followup-To: bit.listserv.hungary,soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.romanian
Date: 5 Oct 1995 02:51:04 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
Lines: 20
Message-ID: >
References: > 
> >
> >


NNTP-Posting-Host: saul6.u.washington.edu
NNTP-Posting-User: szamos
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: news.u.washington.edu soc.culture.magyar:15674 soc.culture.romanian:26606

Distribution:

Dan Pop ) wrote:

: I happen to know families in Cluj and they didn't seem particularly
: worried.                                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^
  ^^^^^^^
Would you please clarify the ^^^ part?   Do they think that magyars
are treated equally, or not?

: Of course, they knew pretty well that they couldn't sell me the
: usual hostile propaganda, which is good only for export to people who
: have no clue about Romania's realities and are ready to buy anything
: about the Hungarian and Gypsy "discrimination", "genocide", "oppression",
: etc in Romania.

Acts speak for themselves.   And the Ru[o]manian government has
provided ample evidence showing that "discrimination" is real;
"oppression" is very subjective hence it's a rather murky issue,
however, usually there's no smoke without fire; "genocide" is most
likely a result of exaggeration.  Of course, "cultural genocide"
is a completely different matter.

Perhaps we should forward this very clever concept either to Dr. Endrey,
or to the ministry of finance in Hungary?

Nope.  But I did write his postmaster.  If anyone else wants to, also,
they're welcome...

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

Living in the USA, I dont get enough information on the current Hungarian
political scene. I was wondering if someone could inform me on how
influential in Hungary is Torgyan and his party today. Is Hungary in such
bad shape? When I left Pecs in April I hadnt heard too much about
him. enlighten me please!
Dini Metro-Roland

On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, Sandor Lengyel x2495 wrote:

> M. Christian asks:
>
> >>In human terms, I wonder, how does the quality of your despair fare when
> >>compared to those of other minorities, in Indonesia, Irak, Serbia, or
> >>last but not least, to the squalarous discrimination faced by native
> >>americans in many a reservation ?
>
> How can you ask, without knowing us.
>
> I always take the side of the minorities in any struggle. My heart
> hurts for the american indians, and I always take their side.
>  And I do take the side od the Basque
> and other minorities. I know from reading the hungarian forum, that
> most hungarians are for the bosnians. There are no excuse for any of the
> above, just as no excuse for trampling on the right of the hungarian
> minority.
>
> >>There is a fine line between 'human rights' and a minority demanding more
> >>than it is due.
>
> And you know where the line should be drawn. :-)
>
> Sandor

>From following the discussion, I guess that there is some
misunderstanding on the position of minorities in Serbia.

One thing needs to be clear.  At this time, Serbia is a country under
harsh sanctions, devestated by 1,000,000 refugees.  The fact is that in
Milosevic's regime even Serbs don't have their rights (i.e. what kind of
name is "Yugoslavia" for a Serb federation of Serbia and Montenegro).
Serbs who oppose the regime are in no worse position than others.
(Frankly, an overall position of all citizens is fairly good now).

So, knowing that, it's kind of premature to judge the position of
Hungarians in Vojvodina and Belgrade.  It is well known that until 1991
they had full rights and full autonomy in the province of Vojvodina.  I
will not go into that "deep".  However, Milosevic's regime recruited many
Hungarians to the Serbian Army - some were killed by Croats, most of them
got back home, many simply "deserted".  This was the first sparkle on the
position of Hungarians in Serbia.  But please note that 250,000 Serbs from
Belgrade and Vojvodina (young, educated people) fled, too.  So, this is more
of a political than a minority question (even though Hungary has the full
right to express its concern).

The only other remaining issue is the future form of autonomy for
Hungarians.  There is no single reason why would there be any problem.
Serbs and Magyars of Belgrade and Vojvodina know very well that their
relationship was always rather excellent and that there was almost no
misunderstanding.  Two peoples have always shared a common life in
Hungarian plains, and they have no reason not to continue with that.
These coming years (or months) will put Hungarian autonomy where it needs
to be, and that is their full share of power in Vojvodina province (which
they have lost; only Milosevic's satellites take part, such as Kertesz,
Margit Savovics etc.).  That will be resolved in the near future.  Other
forms of autonomy (schools, university, bilingual counties, TV) are present.

The last remaining "problem" is the new wave of refugees from Bosnia.
Many were sent to Vojvodina, many to inner Serbia.  The problem is big
and is not fabricated to provoke Hungarians.  It's just a tragedy.  Not
only that Serbian government does stupid things, but so does Hungarian -
there was an immediate response to refugees coming to Vojvodina (as a
threat to ethnic ratio), but no response to Croatian genocide in
Krajina and a kick-out of those people.  That has left Serb nationalists
very happy giving them arguments about Hungarian "anti-Serbian" position.

Indeed, Serbia and Hungary should find a common language easily.  But,
Serbia has to change politically, and Hungary has to acknowledge that
Serbia is its primary interest and a friend (so does Serbia).  Hungary
must claim full neutrality in the Yugo war and not try to get cheap
points with Americans and western Europeans on accusing "Serbian beast"
when its clear that no one in Yugoslavia is innocent.

Overall, this problem is not an ethnic problem, it's pure politics.  As
soon as the war stops, things will settle.  Compare to Transylvania,
Vojvodina has always been a peaceful ethnic mixture (26 nationalities).


Boris Bjelica
Oregon State University


PS If many try to find hard that Serbs and Hungarians have "no problem"
together, the illustrative fact is the number of mixed marriages in
Vojvodina and Belgrade.  That's the main reason why Hungarian population
"decreased" by 50,000 since 1945 - a few hundred thousand consider themselves
"Yugoslav".  Another thing is the 1956 help that Serbia provided to
Hungarian heroes - several tens of thousands fled to Serbia, of which
some 15,000 permanently settled.  No one has seen any problem with that,
so there should be some understanding for homeless (previously rich)
Serbs from Krajina.

Cheers.

Readers have completed an intensive short course in the
last few weeks of "What is the problem with East Europe?"

The problem, simply put, is HATRED.

There is an old man, beyond good and evil, Dr. Endrey.
As a lawyer, proposes the most lawful of all solutions.
Puts forward AN IDEA, a legal remedy to an ECONOMIC
devastation of post-communist Hungary. A lawsuit. Not
against ANYBODY in Hungary. Against an Institution,
an obsolete organization of the UN, which itself is
outdated since it reflects the end of WWII, while the
Word just completed WWIII (Cold War). Everybody knows
the UN is not up to many tasks, who did not notice its
utter failure to stem the ethnic hatred in Bosnia?

Dr. Endrey is an innocent man. Demands nothing other
than compensation for damages. If no damages would be
proven, demand would be zero. That simple.

The man is beyond all petty party-politics.
Having returned to his Homeland after four decades of
exile in Australia,he is far and beyond of all local
interest; power, economy or ethnic origin, whatever.

First, they call him "senile" -- to dismiss him as an idiot.
Second, they try to dismiss him as if he did not exist
(only as a figment of imagination of someone doing no more
than publicizing Endrey's idea). When it does not work,
comes the well known method of ridicule, personal, ad
hominem attacks. If you don't like the message, attack
the messenger.

I pointed to Endrey -- they bit my finger.
As hard as they could.

When even the messenger is impeccable -- try to dig up
something, ANYTHING. If all filth is wiped clean from
the teflon, accuse if he revealed too much about himself.
(Some advice: If it bothers you that teflon is CLEAN,
don't throw filth at it! Its cleanliness will be revealed
in an even more striking fashion!)

When no filth sticks, bellyache about style: "Teflon is too
shiny!" No problem. Whipe it cleaner. No shine.

When nothing works, no filth sticks, bring in the "A-bomb"
to blow away ALL TEFLON UTENSILS.

Trivialize Holocaust by comparing Endrey to Hitler.

Endrey is no Hitler

Period

What you wittnessed in a few weeks is

PURE HATRED.

I rest my case.

Petrovics-Ofner wrote:

>Stonewall is one suggestion --by all media, including Internet.  I,
>for one, will, from now on answer respondents to Pellionisz with
>personal messages only --warning of his danger.

Who died and made you king?  Not that I agree with most of what
Mr. Pellionisz has written, but  the free exchange of ideas is what
this is about I thought, or am I wrong with that?  He has made a
valid point with his critisicm of, and proposed action against the
IMF, since the IMF really has no one to answer to, and as we've
seen over and over in history, absolut power corrupts absolutely.
It woudl do the IMF some good to understand that they must act
responsibly, and must consider  the opsition of the governments and
societies on which they impose their conditions (please don't reply
by saying that they don't impose conditions since governments
can refuse the help.  When an economy is in bad shape, take-it-or
leave-it terms are in effect imposing conditions).

Mr. Pellionisz may be a bit extreme, but he has some valid points.
It doesn't do you any good to just hear people repeat your
views over and over.  Listening to some new ideas can only
help the discussion.

Paul Gelencser

Darren Purcell wrote:

>However, in the interest of fair critique of any such post, as a former
>subscriber, I would not consider the paper worth the money. The service
>was excellent but please note that the paper is (IMHO)  very American
>centered and I just don't find their style of reporting and editorial
>writing very helpful to Hungarian society.

An honest critisism is always welcome.  Can you explain what you mean
by 'American centered'?  Do you mean to say that they take the US side on
issues?  Why are tey not "helpful to Hungarian society"?

Thankss,
        Paul Gelencser

Dan Pop wrote:

>Of course, they knew pretty well that they couldn't sell me
>the usual hostile propaganda, which is good only for export to people who
>have no clue about Romania's realities and are ready to buy anything
>about the Hungarian and Gypsy "discrimination", "genocide", "oppression",

The new school law is not "propaganda", it's reality.  It is exactly the
"discrimination" the Hungarians in Rumania speak of.

Paul Gelencser

Those interested in combining sightseeing with some of the best folkdance
workshops in Hungary should contact Adam Molnar; he has had 15 years
experience setting up meetings with groups such as Teka and the Tape
folklore group, and those interested in learning more about Hungarian
folkdance.  The man is a veritable walking encyclopedia on language and
History, and is very personable.  He recently arranged tours to the Csango
festival in Jaszbereny and the weeklong workshop at NagyKallo.  Those
interested in more information should contact him at Custom travel
Hungary, Katona Jozsef u. 35, Budapest H-1137 Hungary, or tel. 36-1
131-0007, or FAX 36 1 132-3964.
John Uhlemann