Thongsouk’s letter of 12 July 1993 from Sop Hao Prison No. 7 at the
Vietnamese border, secretly received, stated that he and two others
co-prisoners of conscience were in good spirits and still believed in the
final victory of democracy in Laos.

	"...The Viet servants were very barbaric.  They threatened and tortured us
continually, tying our hands and arms around out necks.  We were condemned
to 14 years of imprisonment and it was demanded that we sigh a submission
act of subversion which we refused.  They ordered Lieutenant Thonvang to
subject us to all kinds of torture.  But, we have survived in spite of these
trials.  After the defeat of the Khmer Communists at the election, they
tried to be lenient with us, but we knew that their intention of maintaining
the status quo was to preserve the dictatorial power, and to do so they had
to destroy freedom lovers in one form or another.

	As this moment the global situation offers us the best opportunity to act.
If we fail to grab it we will be sorry for life. We must further democracy
at any price.  It is quite noble to be imprisoned in place of freedom
fighters.  Do I have reasons to be proud of my contribution to strive for
the democratisation of Laos?  The victory is at the point of horizon.

	The Prison No. 7 is a death camp where a number of ministers and high
ranking officers of the old regime have died with their legs and hand tied
in dark and gloomy prisons.  They (the Communists) have ended many
prisoners’ lives with the cruel blow of rifle butts on their victim’s neck.

	A number of Lao students studying at Phu Tho, Vietnam who staged a strike
because they were not given enough food, were alleged to have mounted a
‘coup d’etat’ and arrested.  They were immediately transported to this
torturous cam, all dying by the end of 1980.

	The arrest was made on a simple allegation, clearly a grave violation of
human rights.  I would like you to write a report to the Human Rights
Commission of the UN, Amnesty International and to other international
organisations to exert pressure on the Lao PDR to release us without
condition, as we submitted a project on the constitution that was not a
crime nor a violation.  But to condemn an innocent person like me to 14
years of imprisonment was a real offence to all men who love justice..."

	Actually, we have received news from the wives of the freedom fighters
saying that Thongsouk had been gravely ill with diabetes and other diseases.
He has been left to die without any basic medical care.  Therefore, today we
appeal to the Human Rights Commission of the UN, to Amnesty International in
London and to other free world governments which have diplomatic
representation in Laos to ask the dictatorial government of Laos to allow
the Red Cross to visit the sick and imprisoned freedom fighters.  In
particular, we call for economic pressure on the dictatorial government to
release the abovementioned fighters without condition.

LAO COMMUNITIES IN AUSTRALIA
2nd December, 1995

 (Tony Pace) wrote:

>>>>Otherwise, what would have prevented the alleged north Moravians from
>>>>getting their salt form sources in southern Poland, in the vicinity of
>>>>Krakow?

>I can just image the salt barges making their way upstream the Vistula
>and then through the Tatras :-) not likely due to the topography.

Sure the upstream and overland route would have been a bit more
difficult but not logistically impossible. Believe it or not, there
are researchers that have studied this issue and Bowlus made reference
to their work. 

>>You haven't explained yet the contradiction between the Arnulf's salt
>>embargo and a hypothetical north Moravia location.

>No contradiction, the salt embargo would have stopped the salt being
>shipped along the Danube, a route which you have obviously left out
>of your hypothesis.

I'm not sure which salt (Carantanian or East Carpathian) you have in
mind, but downstream Drava via Ptuj and downstream Tisza via Mures,
respectively, where the usual routes supplying salt to Southeastern
Pannonia. My point was that Arnulf's salt embargo against a northern
Moravia would have been meaningless as much time as he had no control
over the southern Poland sources.

>Salt coming down the Mures could have gone upstream along the Tisa,
>to which Svatopluk expanded his domain.

Yes, but upstream or downstream Tisza didn't matter anymore as much
time as the Bulgarians cut the source supply.

However, if the Bulgarians grant Arnulf's request the situation is
critical for a southern Moravia, but not without solution for a
northern Moravia. Therefore, the salt embargo is a reality only if
Sventopolk's center is in Southeastern Pannonia.

>>The enumerated rivers are defined by Constantine as being above (i.e.,
>>north) of the  landmarks. Because megale Moravia is one of these
>>landmarks, it logically follows that megale Moravia  was situated
>>bellow [i.e., south] of the enumerated rivers.

>>Let's add here that Constantine located megale Moravia beyond river
>>Ister, and not beyond the Danube, Ister being the name normally
>>applied only to the lower reaches of the Danube. Also, the lower Sava
>>around Sirmium was commonly considered to be a continuation of the
>>Ister.

>Porphyrogenet was specific in "the river Istros also known as Danube"

He was referring specifically to the lower Danube, because Timis,
Mures, Cris, and Tisza are all rivers north of that stretch, not north
of the upper Danube. 

>>Also, the lower Sava
>>around Sirmium was commonly considered to be a continuation of the
>>Ister.

>The Sava was not named by Porhyrogenet, whereas "Istros was also 
>known as the Danube, see above.

See chapter 30 of D.A.I, "Story of the the Province of Dalmatia,"
where Constantine uses interchangeably "Danuvios"  with "Istrios" to
define the boundary between Dalmatia and Pannonia, that is, the Sava
River.  

Constantine's geographical terminology was the standard terminology
during early medieval times. As a supporting example, the Regensburg
annalist, describing the Wilhelminer Fehde (882-884), uses a similar
terminology. Thus, the lower Danube, near the Drava-Sava-Tisza
watergate is called "Hister," while "Danubium" is used only for the
upper Danube.

Regards, 

Liviu Iordache

You ALL are completely wrong!  The most effective way to say "I love you" in th
ree 
words is "How about $100?"...you see I tried "I love you" in the streets of NYC
 and 
it got me nowhere...but boy, did I have fun when I tried "How about $100" !  (I
 also 
have been rather sick lately...but that is another issue...)

In article >, > writes:
> Path: 
news.pi.net!news.sara.nl!news.nic.surfnet.nl!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.in
ternetmci.com!in1.uu.net!EU.net!Belgium.EU.net!news
> From: "Peter Segaert (Dr. Seagull)" >
> Newsgroups: 
soc.culture.kenya,soc.culture.korean,soc.culture.kuwait,soc.culture.laos,soc.cu
lture.latin-america,soc.culture.liberia,soc.culture.maghreb,soc.culture.magyar,
soc.culture.malagasy,soc.culture.malaysia,soc.culture.mexican,soc.culture.mongo
lian,soc.culture.nepal,soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.new-zealand,soc.cult
ure.nigeria,soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.pacific-island,soc.culture.pakistan,
soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.peru,soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.portugues
e,soc.culture.puerto-rico
> Subject: Re: Please help translation (3 Words !)
> Date: 4 Jan 1996 19:48:28 GMT
> Organization: NIT-Belgium
> Lines: 24
> Message-ID: >
> References: > > 
>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: nit.eunet.be
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4c)
> X-URL: news:
> Xref: news.pi.net soc.culture.kenya:34 soc.culture.korean:14026 
soc.culture.kuwait:2287 soc.culture.laos:1445 soc.culture.latin-america:5722 
soc.culture.liberia:63 soc.culture.maghreb:3025 soc.culture.magyar:4746 
soc.culture.malagasy:328 soc.culture.malaysia:14795 soc.culture.mexican:8937 
soc.culture.mongolian:730 soc.culture.nepal:2508 soc.culture.netherlands:14831 
soc.culture.new-zealand:13224 soc.culture.nigeria:4409 soc.culture.nordic:11960
 
soc.culture.pacific-island:152 soc.culture.pakistan:24227 
soc.culture.palestine:5424 soc.culture.peru:3571 soc.culture.polish:11069 
soc.culture.portuguese:10341 soc.culture.puerto-rico:6069
> 
>  (Kalifa !) wrote:
> >In article >, 
 says...
> >
> >> Sorry for being out-of-theme or if this is a FAQ, I'd really
> >> appreciate to know how to translate in your language the
> >> sentence
> >>  "I love you"
> >
> >as I learned while living in Amsterdam:
> >
> >"je neus staat scheef" is the proper translation, and a definite "hit" 
> >at parties. Turns Dutch women (and presumably men too) inside out !
> >
> 
> Hey Kalifa, who learned you that expression ?
> No wonder you got turned down by all Dutch women/girls you approached :-) !
> 
> The correct Dutch (Nederlands/Vlaams) translation is :
> 
>    "Ik hou van jou !"
> 
> 
> Dr. SEAGULL
> 
> 
 well well that was fun ha ha ha ha ha ha

Dear Colleagues,

Please help to establish a democratic and fair representation of the 
estimated 190,000 Canadians of Hungarian origin (1986 census) in the Word 
Federation of Hungarians (MVSZ). You can help this cause a number of ways, 
here are two examples:

1. Help the Organizing Committee of a new Canadian National Council (Kanadai 
   Orszagos Tanacs) of the MVSZ, or KOT in short, to identify all the 
   various Canadian - Hungarian organizations. This will help them  
   with their membership drive.

2. Join the new Canadian National Council (KOT) of the MVSZ individually or
   through  your organization, by contacting the Organizing Committee.
   You can contact the Organizing Committee through me by E-mail, or by 
                                  Telephone:        Fax: 
   Csaba Gaal/ Kanadi Magyarsag:  (416) 233-3131    (416) 233-5958
   Agnes Somorjai/ Magyar Elet :  (416) 221-6195    (416) 221-6358

If you want to know a little more about the issues please read on, 
I will try to summarize briefly the issues involved.

Presently there are only three representatives of the Hungarian-Canadians 
(H-C) at the MVSZ organization: 
   Mr. Istvan Walter, Member of the Presidium
   Mrs. Rozsa Matrai, Member of Western Regional Committee
   Mr.  Andras Timar, Member of Western Regional Committee
They were elected from the KMSZ (Kanadai Magyarok Szovetsege/Federation of 
Hungarian-Canadians) nominees during the III. World Congress of Hungarian 
in 1992.

Based on the size of the H-C population this is a inadequate 
representation, and many non-political Hungarian-Canadians 
consider it unfair, because they do not support the politics of the KMSZ.

In 1994 with the help of Erno Jakabffy, then the MVSZ Western Regions's  
vice-president, a new organization was formed in Toronto with the aim of 
providing a broader representation of H-Cs during the forthcoming 1996 
Congress of the MVSZ. This organization is called Canadian Council (Kanadai 
Szervezet).  Unfortunately this new organization failed in their effort 
to build a broad-based organization. After one year they only managed to 
recruit about 25 members representing a handful of organizations. 

Therefore in November, 1995 Dr Bagi who is the MVSZ Western Region's current
vice-president, urged the H-C MVSZ leaders (Walter, Matrai, Timar) to try 
to do better and reach out to every H-C "From See to See" to ensure that 
during the June 1996 Congress of the MVSZ at Opusztaszer, there will be 
enough H-C delegates to provide a strong H-C voice. They responded by 
asking the above mentioned Organizing Committee to contact all H-C and 
invite them to join a new non-political Canadian National Council (KOT).
If the campaign is successful this KOT will elect the delegates to the 
1996 MVSZ Congress.
 
So dear Reader, if you are still with me, you can see that the Organizing 
Committee need help. You can help by reviewing the attached list of 
organizations, and send me your suggestions for additions or corrections. 
The Organizing Committee will then contact these organizations and will 
invite them to join the KOT. As you can see the need for leads are the 
greatest for Manitoba, Saskatchewan and the Atlantic Provinces.

The organizations are listed by provinces in the following order: 
religious, social, educational, media and others. In many cases I 
translated the name of the organizations to English, so it may not be the 
"Official English" name. I would appreciate any correction in this regard 
also.

BUEK, and I hope to hear from you soon,

Barna Bozoki



> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  

DRAFT LIST OF HUNGARIAN_CANADIAN ORGANIZATIONS        1996.01.07

ALBERTA
 Calgary: St Elizabeth R.C. Church 
 Calgary: The Calvin Hungarian Presbyterian Church 
 Calgary: Hungarian Cultural Society 
 Calgary: Szechenyi Society 
 Calgary: Hungarian Ethnic Lexicon Foundation 
 Edmonton: St Emery R.C. Church 
 Edmonton: Calvin Hungarian Presbyterian Church 
 Edmonton: The Corvin History Society 
 Edmonton: Hungarian Cultural Society 
 Edmonton: CKER Radio, Hungarian Program 
BRITISH COLUMBIA
 Coquitlam: Folk-Dance Assembly of Vancouver 
 Kelowna: Okanaga Hungarian Club 
 Nanaimo: Nanaimo Hungarian Cultural Society 
 Osoyos: South Okanaga Hungarian Club 
 Vancouver: Our Lady of Hungary R.C. Church 
 Vancouver: Hungarian Presbyterian Church 
 Vancouver: Hungarian Musicians and Music Teachers' Association 
 Vancouver: Central-European Minority Rights Protection 
 Vancouver: Hungarian Business and Professional Association 
 Vancouver: Hungarian Cultural Society 
 Vancouver: Hungarian Chamber of Commerce 
 Vancouver: Honorary Hungarian Consulate 
 Victoria: Hungarian Club 
MANITOBA
 Winnipeg: Hungarian United Church 
 Winnipeg: St Antony of Padua Church 
ONTARIO
 Brantford: Brantford & District Hungarian-Canadian Club 
 Brantord: Hungarian House 
 Bright: Bretherens - Hungarian Mennonite Farm 
 Courtland: St George G.C. Church 
 Courtland: St Ladislaus R.C. Church 
 Delhi: Calvin Presbyterian Church 
 Delhi: Delhi & Tobacco District Hungarian House 
 Etobicoke: Hungarians - Weekly Newspaper 
 Hamilton: St Stephan R.C. Church 
 Hamilton: Hungarian Reformed Church 
 Hamilton: St Michael's G.C. Church 
 Hamilton: Hungarian Old Scouts - Matthias Hunyadi Workshop 
 Hamilton: Hungarian House 
 Hamilton: St Elizabeth Villa 
 Hespeller: Hungarian Canadian Club 
 London: St Stephan R.C. Church 
 Nepean: Ottawa Hungarian Community Centre 
 Niagara Falls: Arpad Hall 
 North York: St Elizabeth of Hungary Church 
 North York: First Hungarian Baptist Church 
 North York: Pax Romana Youth Group 
 North York: Hungarian Life - Weekly Newspaper 
 North York: Menora - Newspaper 
 North York: Thalia Group of Arts 
 Ottawa: Hungarian Parishioners' of the B. Sacrament R.C. Church 
 Ottawa: Calvin Hungarian Presbyterian Church 
 Scarborough: The Canadian Maltese Charitable Service Trust 
 TORONTO: The Nest Club of Toronto 
 Toronto: Hungarian Full Gospel Church 
 Toronto: Hungarian Reform Evangelical Church 
 Toronto: Hungarian Presbyterian Church 
 Toronto: Hungarian United Church 
 Toronto: Hungarian Canadian Engineers' Association - Toronto 
 Toronto: Hungarian Sudents Club of the University of Toronto 
 Toronto: Hungarian Human Rights Monitor 
 Toronto: Hungarian Helicon Society 
 Toronto: Hungarian Canadian Writers' Association 
 Toronto: Hungarian Canadian Federation 
 Toronto: Kodaly Assemble 
 Toronto: Sandor Korosi Csoma Historical Society 
 Toronto: Hungarian Fishermen's Association 
 Toronto: Pensioners' Club 
 Toronto: Hungarian Gardeners of Toronto 
 Toronto: Hungarian Canadian Cultural Centre 
 Toronto: Hungarian-speaking Jews' Association of Toronto 
 Toronto: Hungarian Chair, University of Toronto 
 Toronto: Research Institute 
 Toronto: Hungarian Canadian Radio & TV Co. 
 Toronto: Hungarian Canadian Community Services 
 Toronto: Hungarian Canadian Chamber of Commerce 
 Toronto: Rakoczi Villa 
 Toronto: Hungarian Consulate General 
 Toronto: United Hungarian Fund 
 Welland: Our Lady of Hungary R.C. Church 
 Welland: St John the Baptist G.C. Church 
 Welland: Hungarian Presbyterian Church 
 Welland: Hungarian Hall 
 Windsor: First Hungarian Presbyterian Church 
 Windsor: St Anthony's Hungarian R.C. Church 
 Windsor: St Mary's Hungarian G.C. Church 
 Windsor: Hungarian Club 
QUEBEC
 Montreal: Hungarian Presbyterian Church 
 Montreal: Hungarian Jewish Memorial Synagogue 
 Montreal: Hungarian Reform Church 
 Montreal: Our Lady of Hungary Church 
 Montreal: Hungarian Canadian Engineers' Association - Montreal 
 Montreal: TV Channel 24 Montreal - Hungarian TV  Broadcast 
 Montreal: Hungarian Canadian Chamber of Commerce 
 Montreal: Foyer Hongrois 
SASKATCHEWAN
 Regina: Hungarian Cultural & Social Club 

- - -End of the list - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Kis Balint  > wrote:
>
>En mint itt a BME-n ucsorogve es a szomszedaim monitorjait leskekodve eleg
>sokszor latom, hogy a soc.culture.magyar-t bongeszik. Elkepzelheto, hogy 
>azert nem nagyon valaszolgatnak, mert elremiti oket a sok angolsag..

Balint,
nyugodtan irhattok magyarul is.  Az angol csak azert gyakoribb, mivel
a hircsoportok a vilag minden reszere eljutnak, s az Internet
"vilagnyelve" az angol.  Ez persze nem jelenti azt, hogy akik kint
elunk, elfelejtettunk magyarul.  Viszont sok nem-magyar szarmazasu is
olvassa ezt a hircsoportot, s veluk sem akarunk kirekesztosdit jatszani.
De ha mar valasztani kell, hogy kik szoruljanak ki, akkor azok NEM TI
lesztek, ha rajtam mulik. ;-)

Udv,
Pannon Jozsi
(volt BME diak)

Van Je Houden ??

TA