In article >, Sandor Lengyel
x2495 > says:
>Actually, very few. For most hungarians it is common sense, that we cannot
>turn back the clock. Even those who wish it,  are reallistic enough.
>  The problem is not with revisionalism but with power. Romania has the power
>over the hungarians and not the otherway around.
>  Romania has a large hungarian minority, and because of this Romania feels
>destabilized by it. They fear, that giving too much freedom, they might demand
>not only cultural but also political autonomy. This fear is normal, and it
>does exist in any nation, (not just the Romanian), who try to subjugate a
>large ethinic population.
>  By your history lesson, it seems we did it too. But as you can see, it is
>not the solution.

Can't agree more! While the role of ethnic minorities has always been that
of the underdog, this is to be expected to a large extent. The minority group
has but two choices, assimilate or rebel. (To leave is often not an option)
Rebellion is costly in both ecenomic and humanitarian terms. Most often the
minority group feel opressed, and in fact is opressed, for their utter lack
of willingness to assimilate. When groups assimilate, as it has been done in
the
US, the problem largely goes away, when they do not, as in Slovakia and
Romania,
the problem exercerbates.

As as emigrant from Hungary, I have chosen the assimilation route. I do not
profess
to be hungarian, merely of hungarian origin. I am now an american. I suppose if
I moved
to Slovakia, I would also have chosen this line, for I prefer to be a part of
the
society at large. I don't wish to be perceived as a 'rebel' or outcast.

Well, thats my two cents worth!

Steve (Istvan) Czetty

In article >, Stephen Czetty > wrote:
>
>As as emigrant from Hungary, I have chosen the assimilation route. I do not
profess
>to be hungarian, merely of hungarian origin. I am now an american. I suppose
if I moved
>to Slovakia, I would also have chosen this line, for I prefer to be a part of
the
>society at large. I don't wish to be perceived as a 'rebel' or outcast.

This is a reasonable route when one voluntarily emigrates from his
native country to another one.  However, this is not the case with the
Hungarians in Transylvania or Slovakia.

Joe

Lorant Czaran > writes:
>what remains after Bucharest
>takes all...Just joking, anyway!

Sure, sure, here we go again :)

>> What is "enough" for you, then ? Maybe you can provide
>> examples of hungarian candidates who weren't hired although
>> they excelled in their profession, due to the not-so-good-will
>> of a certain department head. Names! Enumerate cases!
>> Present statistics! Otherwise that's plain bulshit. Anyway,
>> not a statement of fact. The hungarian students at least at
>> mathematics department can take almost _every_ class in hungarian,
>> and I believe in many other departments.

>WEll, again I must tell you that I live and work in Cluj, and I have
>friends in many Departments of the University,

I also know very well that University, you know... I _worked_ there,
for some time and I managed to make a lot of friends there, both
romanians and hungarians. You know, I even lived in Gheorgheni, Aleea
Borsec. Trust me. Do you want more details :) ?

>not only in maybe the most
>liberal today, the Mathematics. So please do not generalize using examples!

I gave just an example which doesn't fit your biased diagnosis, and
I assure you that there are many others. In fact, _you_ are the one
who is supposed to _prove_ the existence of discrimination regarding
the hiring of hungarians at BBU. You know, like in a law court :)
Instead, the only thing you drop here are your own feelings. That's
fine, but not an argument. One _cannot_ argue in this style, believe me.
HDUR's by any chance ?


>And I know about the "background" of birth of these hungarian groups, I
>know how "happy" most of the professors were when the groups where
>organized, I know that the groups can be very simply terminated by a
>single order coming from the Ministry of Education, from a very "nice"
>gentleman called Liviu Maior, good friend with Funar.

Do you want to suggest that the romanians _cannot_ be terminated by such orders
?
Or maybe that the fraction of `terminated  hungarians' is bigger ? Facts are
_badly needed_ here...  You seem never wanting to provide them. Why ? Let's
read:

>And I want to live and work later in Cluj, I don't want your friends and
>academics to consider me a "traitor", just because I give names
>concretely known! They use to do this, I'm wondering if you didn't know this?
>I want just peace and quiet, finally; forget about examples! Maybe later,
>if I decide to go and fight for minority rights or other useless things,
>but that will probably not happen...

Understandable, very understandable. But this declared `fear'
might also a good propagandistic technique, designed to :

1. To avoid to present facts which in fact are not available

or

2. To put once again the romanians in a bad light (`they are hunting us')

How do I know what the reality is ?


>> in which a certain hungarian intellectual almost spitted on Balladur for his
>> "ill-will" :)

>YOU FORGOT THE NOSE UP HERE! :-)

Why are you using here so intensively the caps-lock (or shift ?) keys :)
You seem somewhat surprised. Why ?


>>Your statement that "NOBODY" is _false_since I can provide
>> at least ONE example.

>OK! Lets reformulate! Nobody that is a normal person today!

We agree here.

>Just what they feel they don't have although they need it!


>As a geographer I know some things about countries, and I had the
>opportunity to live for some time in several European ones...I saw how are
>things going, how are people thinking.

How are the people thinking :) ?

>What a minority is needing are not at all excessive rights! Just what
>they feel they don't have although they need it! Not more. TRy to
>understand...An there can be no danger in accepting this, after all, they
>are just a minority, or not?

I understand very well and, once again, I repeat, we are not
adversaries. I am also a fan of the individual freedom, you know...
And I am convinced that there is plenty of room for improvement in Romania.
At least we agree in some respects, you see ?
Jeez! I am even beginning to have fun discussing with you :)

Regards,
Mihai Caragiu


         ==================================
        | Dr. Mihai Caragiu                |
        | Institute of Mathematics         |
        | Romanian Academy of Sciences     |
        | e-mail:  |
         ==================================

If you want to continue, let's continue. I'll stop here probably, because
I have a lot of work to do before my scholarship here at the Institute for
Advanced Study ends, and for us "in province" it is not very easy to find
one...You know, liberty of information, or what remains after Bucharest
takes all...Just joking, anyway!

> What is "enough" for you, then ? Maybe you can provide
> examples of hungarian candidates who weren't hired although
> they excelled in their profession, due to the not-so-good-will
> of a certain department head. Names! Enumerate cases!
> Present statistics! Otherwise that's plain bulshit. Anyway,
> not a statement of fact. The hungarian students at least at
> mathematics department can take almost _every_ class in hungarian,
> and I believe in many other departments.

WEll, again I must tell you that I live and work in Cluj, and I have
friends in many Departments of the University, not only in maybe the most
liberal today, the Mathematics. So please do not generalize using examples!
And I know about the "background" of birth of these hungarian groups, I
know how "happy" most of the professors were when the groups where
organized, I know that the groups can be very simply terminated by a
single order coming from the Ministry of Education, from a very "nice"
gentleman called Liviu Maior, good friend with Funar. They were forced to
accept this, it is only policy, not at all good will or trust!
We hear every day "voices" in different Departments telling that "...here
are already to many hungarians hired..."; is that really a danger?
And if you don't trust me, then just forget about statistics, examples,
those are not_very_plain bulshit too!
And I had some personal experiences also, like when one of your good
colleagues, mathematician, didn't allowed my access to a computer (donated
from Germany) in their Department, while doing my Diploma, two years ago,
because one of my directories on a floppy disk was named Erdely (that's
TRansylvania)!!
WEll, MY DEAR (please don't misunderstand me, I have respect for you,
maybe you are older also, but I just use YOUR words), nice things, isn't it?
I cannot accept any comment on this, I just felt a great hate in that
moment, and that case was not the only one! Things like this are happening
every day, and mostly in the so called "intelectual" community...why?
You see, these are personal or collective experiences, and not some nice
theory, so please stop asking for examples, like Elena Ceusescu did five
years ago when she was convicted. We are tired to give examples, that
makes no sense!
And I want to live and work later in Cluj, I don't want your friends and
academics to consider me a "traitor", just because I give names
concretely known! They use to do this, I'm wondering if you didn't know this?
I want just peace and quiet, finally; forget about examples! Maybe later,
if I decide to go and fight for minority rights or other useless things,
but that will probably not happen...

> Every speech criticizing the hardliners
> of HDUR is an `ugly speech',then... Including those
> delivered by NPP, PAC or so ? Do you need examples ?

No thanks! Why are you thinking that only the hardliners are "touched" by
these speeches! A lot of them are affecting all of us, we feel that, you
probably cannot understand...Stupid MP's and stupid ideas, and it's not
very important the party whose speaker "launch" them! THe problem is
nobody tries to moderate this, so I'm not surprised people have fear, as
another reader just said! Of course they have, they are two millions in a
community of other 20 million more or less agresive people. Who is in
real danger? Are you really "afraid" by our "hardliners"? And those are
not even hardliners, just choosing the wrong words...many times.

>Well, my dear, what about if you check one of the issues of "The European"
>(I don't remember exactly, two or three months ago or so, I can check if
>you need)

No thanks! That's really a major thing...and good arguments too, what can
I say?

> in which a certain hungarian intellectual almost spitted onBalladur for his
> "ill-will" :)

YOU FORGOT THE NOSE UP HERE! :-)

>Your statement that "NOBODY" is _false_since I can provide
> at least ONE example.

OK! Lets reformulate! Nobody that is a normal person today! It is good so?
You really rely on some obscure declarations, or you do this trivial
declaration because you also believe that TRansylvania is subject of a
possible modification? I can hardly believe, as I said no one can think
seriously about this! Maybe as an independent country, with all its
nationalities, this would be a good idea! This is why also Moldavia choose
not to be united with Romania. Hard to "eat" for many patriots, but
that's it, nobody would be very happy to be controlled and manipulated
from Bucharest...
But the borders of the actual countries in Eastern Europe will remain the
same, at least till we can remain in the domain of normality! Even if so
many of you are sooo worried!

>Do you really think US as _the best_ example of democratic country ?
> Did you think well before writing this down ?

I never said US is the best example. To decide this can be very
subjective, and you'll need to live in many other countries to be able to
do a distinction! But compared with what we have, it can be an example!
And you are there now!
As a geographer I know some things about countries, and I had the
opportunity to live for some time in several European ones...I saw how are
things going, how are people thinking.
And the conclusion was, if we can accept to leave the past as it is,
that's OK. If not, if we cannot forget our "injected" or "inherited" hate
or mistrust towards persons of other origin, the worst can come!
What a minority is needing are not at all excessive rights! Just what
they feel they don't have although they need it! Not more. TRy to
understand...An there can be no danger in accepting this, after all, they
are just a minority, or not?

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Lorant Czaran            |       till july 1995:
                         |       Collegium Budapest
3400-Cluj, Romania       |       Szentharomsag u.2 sz.
                         |       1014-Budapest, Hungary
                         |       email: 
                         |       phone:+36-1-1561244; fax:+36-1-1759539
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Not easy to understand each other on minority issues...
Sometimes it seems even impossible. Still, there is no other way, than
to try again and again...
Roumania is obsessed to follow the French examples:

        France successfully homogeneized her population, successfully
imposed the one and only one official French language on her breton,
provencial, etc. etc. speaking citizens...
        France (Hausmann) was able to "systemize" successfully the
topological structure of the capital, Paris...

        Can you imagine the forceful imposition of
Italian language on Sud-Tyroler altoatesinos (Austrian Sud-Tyrol =
Italian Alto Adige),
any of the official languages of Switzerland on the whole population,
Finnish language on Swedish speaking citizens of Finnland,
Spanish language on Catalonians
etc. etc.?
        Can you imagine the demolition of the ancient Roman and baroque
monuments and buildings of Rome just for opening a viable boulevard
from the airport autostrada to the central railway station in Rome
(continuation of Via Cristoforo Colombo, if you happen to know the
topological structure of Rome)?
Not? Exactly such things had been done  "in due time" in France, and
exactly such things have been/are planned and partly carried out (do you
remember the selling out of emmigration permissions for Saxons and
Jews, the forceful settlement of learned intellighentzia after
finishing higher education, the construction of the
Palace of the Conducator, or the systematization plan of villages) in
Roumania. The slight difference is just in timing. France had done
these before the time of worldwide human rights awareness and
worldwide cultural heritage awareness, while Roumania has been
making efforts to do these after.
        Just a question for those, who are better informed than me:
Is the rule still in vigour in Roumania (as it was a decade ago)
that the request of about 20 (or 25?) Hungarian speaking students
was necessary for opening a Hungarian speaking class, while
in the same time and same place 5 Roumanian speaking students
were sufficient to ask for opening a Roumanian speaking class
(that is in a hypothetical - but not rare - case of 19 Hungarian
and 5 Roumanian students of a Transylvanian village what happened)?
        The problem, my friends, is that the French example is
so attractive for Roumania, that her politicians simply cannot
imagine a Swiss or South-Tyrolian or other contemporary
European solution.
Perhaps next time about the relation of Russian tzarist-like
overcentralized and US-like easy going decentralized state
organizations (We the Tzar... or We the People...)
        Regards to all possible dialog partners: Gy. Kadar