I have been reviewing the multifaceted characteristic of this area for
about two months and have considered sending this letter to selected people
but I think it would be more usefull to address it to everyone. I am in the
process of collecting from various sources databases on Hungarian History,
Language and Legends. The data collected is available on my BBS Budapest BBS
(714)895-4885. I am in the early phases of converting a fraction of the data
available in my library. Its overwhelming to think that I could do some of
this by myself. Therefore I am making a request to the readers, what type
of data is available through internet from existing electronic databases,
and perhaps through personal databases which could be shared by all, or if
it is too specialized sent to my EMAIL? We could greatly enrich this area
if we shared what we are interested in. Written material not of just personal
oppinions but data from renowned researchers. Occasionally I see such data
here, but wish I could find more. Are there other sources? Where?

Fred Hamori

>
> > I lived here long enough to have an idea, (about people's feelings
> > about monarchy) anyway, why should your sources be any more
> > trustworthy than mine? Eva Durant
>
> May be because you keep telling us confused you are...  :-)
>
> --Greg

Not about everything! I suppose, nobody else is confused...about
anything... Eva Durant

Would anyone on this list have any suggestions?

Hugh Agnew )
----------------------------Original message----------------------------

Can anyone send me information about a garden designer software? I
wander if there's any available in the United States or Canada.
If you know any source please let me know

thanks

Andras


Andras



(Andras Fenyves
medical student
Budapest, Hungary)

>
> Dictionaries are our friends:
>
> rationalism: reliance on reason as the basis for establishment of religious
> truth
>
> --Greg
more please Eva Durant (baffled)

>
>  I am also curious, so far my conclu-
> >sion is that the meaning of (human) existence is to get to know
> >as much as possible about the world, pass on the knowledge and have
> >a good time, also try to avoid other people having a bad time.
> >Do I need a God for this?
>
> --No, of course not.  This is the orthodox humanist position.  If I
> may, I'd like to ask you a question.  I admit that it is a trick
> question.  I wouldn't ask it of everyone, but I believe you to be
> an intelligent, strong person of whom this can be asked.  Here it is:
> What is the importance of death?  Is it real?  More later, but it
> depends on your answer.  I should mention that I am drinking gin!
> Philosophy goes better when one is drinking something!  Since you
> live in the mother country, I don't imagine that you will be able
> to answer, if you care to, until morning when I will be drinking
> coffee!
>
> Charles
Sorry, bank holiday Monday + Tuesday to get ready for September.
Beer/gin, Charles, you're in a bad way! (And I did not mention God
yet!) Death is as important as birth. We born, we die. We can think
about it, and we don't like it and it usually hurts. It is frighte-
ning to think we will not be around anymore. But the way I see it, we
all made impressions on people and things while we were around, we
become part of a huge intelligence...(not necessary the Hungary list...)
Why do you need more? I was lucky to be born and lucky to have some good
time, lucky to have every extra day, and one day luck runs out, just as for
trees and flies...By the way, I just have found the skeptic list, I think
you would enjoy it.  (but if you know about the magic portion of living
forever, let me know, I could cope, honest) Eva Durant

>
> >Just for general info: When I lived in Hungary last (1983-87) most
> > kids were attending religious education (after school) to my
> > amazement...
>
> I am amazed too because I read somewhere that the percentage is about 25
> percent.
>
> Eva Balogh
This time I am right, I taught in Igal Altalanos iskola in 1984, and
70%+ of my class went to "hittan" after school, and in my children's
classes (Torokkoppany, also Somogy county) it was the same. Also more
in the late 80s, you couldn't move from cars/masses of people in
Church at Nemetvolgyi ut (near what used to be Lekai Ter) but ofcourse
this could be isolated fenomena, caught by someone none too happy with
the sight. For me religion still mostly means backwardness and hopeless-
ness. Sorry. Eva Durant

On Wed, 31 Aug 1994 10:32:13 +0100 Eva Durant said:
>>
>Beer/gin, Charles, you're in a bad way!

--Not yet!  I still have full liver function!

 (And I did not mention God
>yet!) Death is as important as birth.

--I probably should have answered this off the list.  It isn't really
a Hungarian topic.  Maybe I can excuse it by saying that I am interested
in Hungarian thinking about life and death.

--Anyway, for my sins, I used to teach a course entitled "Death, dying,
and bereavement."  (Remember, this is America where we teach things in
universities that often seem strange to more established cultures).  This
course was a semi-academic, semi-practical course for nurses, social workers,
psychologists, and others interested in working with people.  Over the
years, I noticed that there were three general kinds of people who seemed
to handle death better than others:  Orthodox Jews, serious Catholics,
and thoughtful atheists (as opposed to non-religious Jews, nominal
Catholics, and atheists who were really just people with no particular
intellectual system.)  I never really did a formal study of this phenomenon,
but my informal conclusion was that the reason that these people seemed
better able to discuss death and think about it was because they took it
seriously.  The people whose religious beliefs or philsophical orientation
was basically Greek--meaning they believed in immortality and didn't think
that death was real--had the most trouble dealing with the issues.

--The orthodox (small o) Christian position, like that of the Orthodox
Jew (large O) is that death is the end of life.  It is final.  One does
not live beyond the grave.  Instead of immortality, the orthodox Chistian
believes that the power that created the universe and which we call God,
can, for his (or her) purposes, resurrect those if he (or she) chooses for reas
ons known only to him (or her).  (I'm not being politically correct in
referring to God as him or her, but theologically correct, but that's
another story).

--Sartre, one of my favorite atheists, found the knowledge that death
was real to be liberating, because it meant that one had to find meaning,
purpose, and identity in life.  I've been working off and on on a theory
of human development based on existential philosophy (I know that
existentialism is dated, but I still find it useful.)  The first chapter
lays out the theory.  But the second chapter, in which I begin to discuss
human development, is titled simply, "Death."  The third chapter is birth.
My colleagues find this--unusual, when they are being polite, but it is the
knowledge that one will die that gives meaning to life.

>become part of a huge intelligence...(not necessary the Hungary list...)

--Well, that too, though.  But be careful!  This is a theological
thought!  Change the sentence to read "become part of a huge Being"
and you might become an existential theologian!

>Why do you need more?

--I think that Sartre would agree.  But so would Paul Tillich.  It
is not so much a question of needing more as it is of discomfort that
existence is merely a huge cosmic joke.

                   By the way, I just have found the skeptic list, I think
>you would enjoy it.

--Yes.  I would.  Please send the address.

  (but if you know about the magic portion of living
>forever.

--There is none.  And that is a good thing when you think about it.
"For every time there is a season...a time to live and a time to die."
Can you imagine the intolerable brutality of a world in which everyone
lived forever and could not die?

--To the List.  Sorry for this long posting.  It is 5:30 a.m. here,
and I am in my early sixties.  At my age, some body part always hurts,
and one can only sleep so long before the pain intrudes and causes
one to wake!

Charles

On Wed, 31 Aug 1994 10:4>>
 For me religion still mostly means backwardness and hopeless-
>ness. Sorry. Eva Durant

--State-supported religion must, almost inevitably, become a
part of the state apparatus to control behavior.  It is about
as progressive as the postal service in this country and I would
think that it would engender hopelessness in much the same way
that the postal service does.  One must use the postal service,
but one has little hope that the mail will be delivered on time,
or, indeed, delivered at all.

--I would have thought that the communists would have done the
Church more harm by embracing it and giving large estates to the
bishops and the holy orders.  That worked to tame the Churches
in non-communist regimes.

Yours for both freedom of religion and freedom from religion,

Charles!

>
> --Sartre, one of my favorite atheists, found the knowledge that death
> was real to be liberating, because it meant that one had to find meaning,
> purpose, and identity in life.  I've been working off and on on a theory
> of human development based on existential philosophy (I know that
> existentialism is dated, but I still find it useful.)  The first chapter
You may find this surprising, but we were very free to read Sartre,
Camus, Beuvouir in secondary school, (Budapest) so long ago that I forgot
how to spell'em, in the 60's. I found out about it
through my friends who were doing French - I was in the English
part of the class with a less stimulating teacher. I enjoyed reading
them, though I was  already a firm dialectic materialist so I looked
at it suspiciously/critically, like I do...

>
> >become part of a huge intelligence...(not necessary the Hungary list...)
>
> --Well, that too, though.  But be careful!  This is a theological
> thought!  Change the sentence to read "become part of a huge Being"
> and you might become an existential theologian!

I meant strictly human intelligence! (still not necessary the Hungarian
list...sorry)

>  > --I think that Sartre would agree.  But so would Paul Tillich.  It
> is not so much a question of needing more as it is of discomfort that
> existence is merely a huge cosmic joke.
>
So - God as a comforter? I even dislike dummies for babies - adults
should manage to face reality - sorry this sounds rough, but you  are
not as old as I thought! I don't mind the cosmic joke - I am pleased I am
part of it even if temporalily.

>                    By the way, I just have found the skeptic list, I think
> >you would enjoy it.
>
> --Yes.  I would.  Please send the address.



>  >
> --There is none.  And that is a good thing when you think about it.
> "For every time there is a season...a time to live and a time to die."
> Can you imagine the intolerable brutality of a world in which everyone
> lived forever and could not die?
>
Yes, but I want to know what happens next!

Well, if one morning you discover that nothing hurts - you are
dead! (Or dead drunk) Eva Durant

DATE=8/31/94
TYPE=CORRESPONDENT REPORT
NUMBER=2-164398
TITLE=HUNGARY / UKRAINE (L-ONLY)
BYLINE=STEFAN BOS
DATELINE=BUDAPEST
CONTENT=
VOICED AT:

/// UKRAINE SERVICE:  UKRAINIAN ACTS OF THE CHIEF OF STAFF IS
BEING SENT TO THE NEWSROOM BUBBLE IN THE CLEAR AFTER THE VOICED
CR ///

INTRO:  UKRAINE IS SEEKING TO SELL SOME OF ITS CONVENTIONAL
WEAPONS AND DEFENSE TECHNOLOGY TO OTHER COUNTRIES IN EXCHANGE FOR
FOOD AND MEDICINES.  AS STEFAN BOS REPORTS FROM BUDAPEST, THE
MATTER WAS DISCUSSED (TUESDAY) DURING TALKS BETWEEN UKRAINIAN AND
HUNGARIAN DEFENSE OFFICIALS.

TEXT:  UKRAINE'S CHIEF OF STAFF, GENERAL ANATOLIJ LOPATA, SAYS
THAT IF HUNGARY WANTS THE WEAPONS, UKRAINE WANTS THE EQUIVALENT
OF 360-THOUSAND DOLLARS' WORTH OF MEDICINES AND MEDICAL
EQUIPMENT.

GENERAL LOPATA SAID UKRAINE, A COUNTRY OF MORE THAN 50 MILLION
PEOPLE, ALSO NEEDS FOOD SUPPLIES, AND WOULD BE WILLING TO
SELL-OFF SOME OF ITS WEAPONS FOR FOOD AID.

THROUGH AN INTERPRETER, THE CHIEF OF STAFF SAID THAT THE EXCHANGE
OF WEAPONS AND DEFENSE TECHNOLOGY FOR HUMANITARIAN AID IS THE
ONLY WAY TO SECURE A BETTER FUTURE FOR THE NEXT GENERATION.

                 /// LOPATA INTERPRETER ACT ///

         THERE ARE  NO  POLITICAL BARRIERS BETWEEN OUR COUNTRIES.
         WE CAN MAYBE TALK ABOUT ECONOMICAL BARRIERS.  DOING THIS
         KIND OF BUSINESS IS  NOT  MAKING US VERY RICH, AND THAT
         IS  NOT  OUR AIM.  WE ARE DOING IT FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR
         CHILDREN.

                         /// END ACT ///

HUNGARIAN DEFENSE MINISTER, GYORGY KELETI, SAID HE WILL STUDY THE
UKRANIAN PROPOSAL VERY CLOSELY.  THE MINISTER SAID HUNGARIAN
GROUND FORCES DESPERATELY NEED MODERN EQUIPMENT.  BUT HE ADDED
THAT AN AGREEMENT WITH UKRAINE COULD  NOT  BE SIGNED DURING THE
CHIEF OF STAFF'S VISIT HERE BECAUSE OF HUNGARY'S LACK OF MONEY TO
BUY THE MEDICINES REQUIRED BY UKRAINE.  HOWEVER, THE MINISTER
BELIEVES THE AGREEMENT WILL BE SIGNED WITHIN THE MONTH, AND THE
FIRST PHASE OF THE PROGRAM IS LIKELY TO BE COMPLETED BY EARLY
NEXT YEAR. (SIGNED)

NEB/SB/MMK

31-Aug-94 1:01 PM EDT (1701 UTC)
NNNN

Source: Voice of America




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